reality of ditching
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reality of ditching
im sure this topic has been covered before, so i apologise in advance.
what are the chances of ditching an a/c into the sea safely and passengers surviving on board?
i remember the ethopian a/c ditching and the result was not pretty.
is there any differnce in ditching at sea or on land. i know that at sea u would have to land between the waves, and with the tides rather then against it, and on land gear would be down and sea it would be up.
please correct me if im wrong, and is there any differnce in ditching with differnt a/c types.
cheers.
what are the chances of ditching an a/c into the sea safely and passengers surviving on board?
i remember the ethopian a/c ditching and the result was not pretty.
is there any differnce in ditching at sea or on land. i know that at sea u would have to land between the waves, and with the tides rather then against it, and on land gear would be down and sea it would be up.
please correct me if im wrong, and is there any differnce in ditching with differnt a/c types.
cheers.
Guest
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I would imagine that underslung engines would cause horrendous problems in all cases, such as the Ethiopian 767 that you mentioned. Personally, the only succesful ditching I have come across was a Nimrod somewhere near Kinloss a year or two ago. Apparently a textbook ditching, which shows how good the guys are, however the tail still broke off! I have always thought that the safety cards showing Boeings, Airbus et al bobbing merrily in the sea with smiling passengers on the wings were a bit optimistic. Anyone know anything else ....?
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If it ever comes to that, I would rather take my chances with the ground than the sea.
I have heard about 1 successful ditching of a C130 sometime ago. Not too sure about the detail though.
As for today's jet (especially the big ones), the stalling speed is pretty high, so if you have to do it, dump all your fuel.
I have heard about 1 successful ditching of a C130 sometime ago. Not too sure about the detail though.
As for today's jet (especially the big ones), the stalling speed is pretty high, so if you have to do it, dump all your fuel.
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http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm
http://airsafe.com/events/ditch.htm
[This message has been edited by Icarus (edited 25 February 2001).]
http://airsafe.com/events/ditch.htm
[This message has been edited by Icarus (edited 25 February 2001).]
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Much will depend on whether it's day or dark, and the sea state. A controlled, ie powered, smooth water ditching probably survivable in almost any civil type. Get something with a high wing loading, combine with rough sea, and maybe no power to extend flaps and run landing lights in the dark, and I reckon it would be all over for most occupants due to the airframe breaking up before it came to rest.
Even a docile BN2 Islander can hurt when it hits water at a mere 35 knots, as I know one ferry pilot who had the nose cave in enough to crush his legs when he ditched. And this guy was a past master of ditching, having done it three times before.
Even a docile BN2 Islander can hurt when it hits water at a mere 35 knots, as I know one ferry pilot who had the nose cave in enough to crush his legs when he ditched. And this guy was a past master of ditching, having done it three times before.
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A guy I used to work with ditched a BN2 off Barbados at night in a reasonably calm sea, with 9 pax on board, not much baggage, and about 2 hours fuel burnt off.
After an engine failure, in a BN2, the remaining engine carries you safely to the scene of the crash.
All got out okay, but the aircraft went down in less than 2 minutes.
All survived until reaching land, when one pap died of hypothermia on the way to hospital.
Another guy I know ditched a Commander off Antigua - ditto seas. He also got out okay. He'd had a total electrics failure, had plenty of fuel. The trouble was, it was in the outer tanks, the transfer valves are electric, so he couldn't get at the fuel...
[This message has been edited by HugMonster (edited 26 February 2001).]
After an engine failure, in a BN2, the remaining engine carries you safely to the scene of the crash.
All got out okay, but the aircraft went down in less than 2 minutes.
All survived until reaching land, when one pap died of hypothermia on the way to hospital.
Another guy I know ditched a Commander off Antigua - ditto seas. He also got out okay. He'd had a total electrics failure, had plenty of fuel. The trouble was, it was in the outer tanks, the transfer valves are electric, so he couldn't get at the fuel...
[This message has been edited by HugMonster (edited 26 February 2001).]
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Actually, I was reading the January issue of FI a few weeks ago, last years accident stats. They had a story of a 707 on approach into some african country (Tanzania?). The CDR handflying the approach and accidently flying into the sea (or lake) short of the field. The aircraft stayed afloat for such a long time, they just towed it in and beached it! I couldn't believe what I was reading.
Surely, some of you have this issue and can verify the story and fill in some details?
Surely, some of you have this issue and can verify the story and fill in some details?
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Avweb:
In northwestern Tanzania at the lower end of Lake Victoria is Mwanza, a small port city, with a long but narrow runway. A few years back a DC-8 crashed trying to land there and the remains are scattered in various places around the airport. But that's another story.
Last week, at about 2000 local time (i.e., at night), an Arabian registered B707 cargo aircraft was landing to pick up a load of fish. On the first approach the airport lost power and all its lights (a routine experience here),
so the pilot had to go-around until the back-up generators got the lights on.
On the second approach he was much too far to the right & almost took out the small terminal and control tower. Missed approach number two. On the third approach (from over the lake with no visual reference) the
control tower called him to say, "you are too low, pull up," to which the Captain replied, "don't worry, I know what I am doing."
About five kilometers short of the runway, he hit the water, tore off all four engines and the landing gear, but didn't puncture the fuselage. With battery power & the taxi light on, they were picked up by a fishing boat (no injuries).
The following day, it was still afloat, so a tug towed it to shallow water near the airport, where it will probably be a beacon for many years. Maybe the pilot misunderstood where he was supposed to pick up a load of fish?
More pictures at: 707Swim
</font>
In northwestern Tanzania at the lower end of Lake Victoria is Mwanza, a small port city, with a long but narrow runway. A few years back a DC-8 crashed trying to land there and the remains are scattered in various places around the airport. But that's another story.
Last week, at about 2000 local time (i.e., at night), an Arabian registered B707 cargo aircraft was landing to pick up a load of fish. On the first approach the airport lost power and all its lights (a routine experience here),
so the pilot had to go-around until the back-up generators got the lights on.
On the second approach he was much too far to the right & almost took out the small terminal and control tower. Missed approach number two. On the third approach (from over the lake with no visual reference) the
control tower called him to say, "you are too low, pull up," to which the Captain replied, "don't worry, I know what I am doing."
About five kilometers short of the runway, he hit the water, tore off all four engines and the landing gear, but didn't puncture the fuselage. With battery power & the taxi light on, they were picked up by a fishing boat (no injuries).
The following day, it was still afloat, so a tug towed it to shallow water near the airport, where it will probably be a beacon for many years. Maybe the pilot misunderstood where he was supposed to pick up a load of fish?
More pictures at: 707Swim
</font>
[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 26 February 2001).]
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Yeah - won't certify that it is true, but since no one was hurt it's kind of amuzing.
Amazing that it didn't break up. The recipe must be just to make a completely normal approach when ditching an airliner
(or do they just don't build aircrafts like they used to do?)
According to Airdisaster Trans Arabian Air Transport had a fatal crash in 1990 where another 707 decended below the GS and hitted some power lines.
[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 26 February 2001).]
Amazing that it didn't break up. The recipe must be just to make a completely normal approach when ditching an airliner
(or do they just don't build aircrafts like they used to do?)According to Airdisaster Trans Arabian Air Transport had a fatal crash in 1990 where another 707 decended below the GS and hitted some power lines.
[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 26 February 2001).]
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I've still to see details of a modern commercial jet succesfully ditching in the open sea and merrily boarding pax onto rafts a la safety cards.The Nimrod is a military airframe(Dont tell me it's still a comet)and ditched into calm Moray Firth.The others are over/undershoots into calm lakes.Having spent many years at sea I can assure you that the North Atlantic in winter is nothing like the Municipal Pool in Horley!
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Anyone remember the story of that DC-9 that ditched in 1970? i think. The DC-9 ditched due to fuel starvation caused by diverting around bad weather and holding/going around for an excessive period of time. The ditching was conducted at night and i think all on board survived although many pax drowned soon after as the a/c sank within minutes. Most pax were rescued . Not sure which airline this was but i think it was someone near St Croix??
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2 May 1970; ALM DC9-33CF; near St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands: The aircraft had departed JFK airport in New York for St. Maarten in the Netherlands Antilles. After three missed approaches, the crew diverted to St. Croix. While en route, the aircraft ran out of fuel and the crew ditched the aircraft. While the flight crew made specific preparations for ditching, the imminent ditching was not communicated to the cabin crew. As a result, several occupants were not belted in at the time of the ditching. The aircraft remained afloat for five to six minutes before sinking in waters about one mile (1600 meters) deep. One of the six crew members and 22 of the 57 passengers were killed. The accident was investigated by the NTSB and the details are available in NTSB report NTSB-AAR-71-8 dated 31 March 1971.
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AF0 is right you know -- a pilot might find it hard to ditch an aircraft when he is struggling for the controls with a hijacker -- I don't think it was planned -- there's videos of it and I think I would have been a slightly neater affair had the pilot made concious effort to ditch!!!
Anyway, thanks Tor, that's cheered me up no end (I'm flying transatlantic a week from today as a passenger). Nice to know I have a chance if ditching were necessary.
SFly
Anyway, thanks Tor, that's cheered me up no end (I'm flying transatlantic a week from today as a passenger). Nice to know I have a chance if ditching were necessary.
SFly
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I agree, SFly, that circumstances are proably not the best when coping with hijackers additionally.
Anyway, don't get too cheerfull, you'll probably drown anyway should the ditching be succesfull.
[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 01 March 2001).]
Anyway, don't get too cheerfull, you'll probably drown anyway should the ditching be succesfull.
[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 01 March 2001).]