MACC go on strike

[mhk77]

After reading about what people had to say about their meetings with Mr Everett the main consensus of opinion for people at MACC appears to be that they dont want to go go north and ideally they want to stay in Manchester. Without trying to sound too militant why are people not trying positive action such as striking? Maybe then NATS senior management would sit up and take notice of peoples wishes rather than just fob people off and hope things can be brushed under the carpet. From what I can deduce management know that basically people will rant and rave for a bit then just shrug their shoulders and accept it. Isn't it time to change this?

[AyrTC]

:ooh: Mr Radical:ooh:

Maybe they wont go on strike because there would have to be a national ballot and I think you would get :mad: all support.
(unless you use BA ground staff tactics).

All together now " You take the high road and I'll take the low road and I'll be in :mad: land afore ye......."

:) :) :p

[mhk77]

I don't mean to sound radical though I'm sure it comes across like that!:O It's just a shame that all everybody seems to care about in this company is their own particular unit. If everybody stuck up for everybody else regardless off whether they're up in Scotland or down here at Swanwick we'd be a much more united workforce instead of the fragmented divided group we are now! Maybe I'm just being a bit too naive but don't we all pay our money into the same union who's supposed to represent every single one of us, not just the units with the most clout....? :confused:

[bagpuss lives]

I was making a similar point earlier today mhk though not especially in reference to the move North.

If we hark back to the days pre-PPP most of us were dead against the move - to the point of threatening industrial action. fF we were so against and we had've walked out - or at least seriously planned to - the Government's hand would have been forced somewhat. *At least in theory*. This would have had to happen during the initial stages of PPP planning of course - anything after that would have been wholly attritional and probably ineffective.

My point is - we, generally speaking, moan and complain about things but,again generally speaking, when it comes to the push we compromise gladly and perhaps too easily.

And the same goes, to a certain extent, for the move from MACC. If we stood together as a whole unit then management will at least be forced to think again. That would be greatly undermined though should the rest of NATS not support MACC - a very real and maybe understandable possibility at the moment.

Who knows what the answer is at this stage?

What thing I have been wondering - since we're in dire straits financially at the moment where is the fiscal backing for the new centre going to come from? NATS can hardly be classed as a good investment and we're hardly good for yet another massive loan. So where's the cash coming from?

[2 six 4]

niteflight and mhk

Do you have any idea of how much money it would cost to replicate Manch's sectors here at Swanwick ? What have you got ... 10 sectors ? The NAS adaptation alone would cost millions. 10 new Lockheed Martin sectors plus a bit of spare would cost hundreds of millions.

Thought about why TC are bringing their system here and not getting LM type sectors ?

So you don't want to leave Manch. Not a problem. Get another job there as a non ATCO.

Industrial action ? To do what ? Go south ? Stay there ? Get more Luncheon Vouchers ?

Just choose your place of employment and give us peace. It will not be as an ATCO in the middle Manchester airport.

[jocko0102]

The only bloody reason we are being forced to that **** hole Prestwick is for political reasons!


We must have our own Parliament/Air Traffic facility/Money etc.....

They dont want to risk pissing off a few no marks in and around that part off Scotland ( and maybe elsewhere) so we must build a new centre there.

Why not Edinburgh?

Everyone aspires to a good life but we aint going to get that in and around Prestwick after moving from down here.

We have been told so many things over the last number of years including (from our last general manager) that it was unlikely to happen.

Down/Up/Not at all/Down again....... No wait Up..... we think.

If the staff at Prestwick/LATCC (as it was) were told that they were moving to a less desireable part of they country after being dicked around for years would they be happy?

NO!

AND A LOT FROM LATCC WERE NOT.

So why should we.

Now i see that although we are short we are being offered part time/sabbaticals to save money.

This is a company that has lost its way and is totally lacking in vision and leadership.

The move to Scotland is just one of many reasons for us here at MACC to feel angry and let down.

that part OF Scotland , my spelling leaves a lot to be desired after many bottles , several love interests and a sheep or 3 (they were for the cuddling afterwards).

Thankyou.

[ITSUX MADAD]

Surely it matters not a jot to you anyway Jocko0102 ... you're gonna be a 34 (or 35) year old ATPL student at Jerez this year anyway ain't ya ??

Good to see that we can still export world beating 'small man syndrome' Jocks from our little country. Who have an opinion and answer for everything.

I'd recommend people have a look at your previous posts .... there's quite a long list of targets that you have on your agenda ranging from Eastern Airways pilots to people asking about radio frequencies ... from airspace designers to your favourite topic of NATS Management. All get short shrift.

Not sure we even want you up here if it comes to pass anyway. The modifications to all the doors so you can get the chips on your shoulders through would cost us a fortune !!!

I'll defend your right to your opinion though. People can make up their own mind about you that way ;)

[mhk77]

2 six 4,
Thankyou for proving my point that the jokers at Swanwick think the whole world revolves around them! Don't even try and kid me, yourself or anybody else that if you were put in the situation whereby you were being told you were being moved 250 miles up the road you would quite happily accept it! You wouldn't! So don't start slating people at Manchester for wanting some sort of say in their future! What really p****s me off is the fact that the last time I was at Swanwick you lot were still moaning about how crap it was there and how you hated it and how the system was crap and BLAH BLAH BLAH! And now you have the gall to slate the Manch lot! Dearie me!

[Gonzo]

Forgive me sticking my not very knowledgeable oar in, but can someone answer me this....

1) Are we as operational ATS staff not mobile grades?

2) Have we not known for years that MACC would eventually move?

[macc2]

I've seen my MACC colleagues in a new light since the announcement and I hope management get the message.
For the most part each is quietly developing a game plan in their own way , united by a common belief in the inability of Prospect to protect their interests.

I simply don't think management realise how many controllers they will lose until the one to one interviews start and even then many will want to keep their cards close to their chests for legal reasons.

You might not like the way Jocko puts his point but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

We all accept that MACC will close and go north.
There's no huff or puff - a lot of us will not move with the centre so we'll do what we need to do to secure a reasonable income. Striking is irrelevant besides our powder is too dry!

No we are not a mobile grade for the purposes of this exercise.

[Point Seven]

Take the sabbaticals, then watch from your holiday as the whole bloody company crumbles.

If any further proof were needed of the lack of vision and total inability of the NATS beancounters to actually realise how vital controllers are to the business, this sorry episode is it.

P7

[Greebson]

I don't think NATS'll lose as many controllers as you think MACC2, as with all previous contentious issues within NATS (although you have been moving for years) you'll huff and you'll puff and you'll huff and you'll puff........................then you'll go to Prestwick!
I'm afraid it's the same old story, lots of threats and hot air, but when it comes to the crunch......submission :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Gonzo]

P7,

I reckon we all take sabbaticals, and then do maybe 15 days a month AAVAs!

How's that for a plan?

[Monger]

I don't where the majority of MACC controllers live but I guess it's Cheshire. I've lived in Manchester and around ScATCC and I can tell you you'll be welcomed north of the boarder, your kids will get a better education and you can 3 times the house for your money.

Oh and the rush hour lasts 3 minutes.

[Findo]

Some rather sad views being expressed but in many ways I understand why. If Manchester management had been half honest with their staff in the last 3 years much of this "debate" would not be taking place.

The final decision to move MACC into the then NSC was taken and published by the NATS board in October 2001. The fact that the Manchester management have failed to convey that simple fact and the associated business case is for MACC staff to ask of their managers.

It will be Prestwick and not another site because in addition to the fine MACC staff there will be over 600 of the present staff who will be working at NPC. Nobody has ever even contemplated a business case which moves the lot.

For the purposes of anything to do with NATS ATCOs, engineers and ATSAs are mobile grades. Those same mobile grades were moved to Swanwick and will be moving, without choice, from TC to Swanwick. I have to agree with other posts that you can choose to move to Prestwick or resign. There are no other logical offers.

If you read the notice on sabbaticals it quite clearly says that Operational grades are very unlikely to be included and read that to mean if you are an ATCO you can forget it.

[VectorLine]

Think back to the day you pitched up to attempt the initial ATCO selection. Just after you presented your proof of Identity and before they let you anywhere near the selection process, you signed a little slip of paper.

remeber what you were signing??

ATCO is a mobile grade and NATS can post you to any unit in Great Britain (although not any UK unit).

You will all go where you are told to, or leave NATS' employment. Same deal as we had from LATCC to LACC.

Deal with it.

[Jerricho]

Vector is correct. We are mobile grades, and have known this since day one. Look at staff from OKS who may have been there for years and have had to relocate. And the guys from Thames/SVFR.......ok, at the moment it's just across the road, but when the second big push south starts.

Being a mobile grade can be a great thing when it suits you (how many people at at the unit they started at?), but it was something you all agreed to when you started.

I think murmurings of industrial action over this is a little hasty

[jocko0102]

ITSUX MADAD and any one else who thinks i am a gobby ****e......you are right!

I am not prepared (regardless of where i will be) to see management and Prospect muck us around.

The fact that we are a mobile grade is not really the problem to me and maybe many others here at MACC.The problems are that:

1.We have been fed so much crap over the last few years regarding a possible move.We have never been given a straight answer to any queries about it.

2.The NSC is a political decision and most people with half a brain know that.

3.Its not just a move down the road but a different country and culture.To a lot of people that is a huge change in life , that has far reaching consequences for them and their families.

As for me it does not matter but for the benefit of ITSUX MADAD and others you have not exported someone who suffers from small man syndrome but a Scotsman who is well aware of idiot jocks and their anti Englishness/the desire in Scotland to stamp its identity on everyone by being soooooo independent/the fact that i like everyone wants a good life (mine might get even better)
but a move up North is not for a lot of people going to enhance theirs.

I agree we are mobile but my what a way to make sure morale is kept nice and high!

[hatsoff]

Having a mobility clause in your contract does not mean that you cannot claim redundancy when a Unit closes.
For reasons of their own our Union disagrees but here's one union that's more clued up
http://www.tssa.org.uk/advice/emp/emp23.pdf

For the more astute, NATS have enhanced redundancy terms which were in force at the time of the MACC Closure announcement :O

[PPRuNe Radar]

Hatsoff

The only clear answer in terms of the law is that there is no black and white answer. ;) In some cases, the employees win, in others the employers win. You can argue precedent either way.

The generic advice I have is that if your contract includes a mobility clause, you may be obliged to accept the move to a new location, provided the wording of the contract is sufficiently clear, unambiguous, and not too wide in its scope. NATS will however be required to give you reasonable notice of any move (which they will easily comply with).

If the mobility clause is drafted too widely or is ambiguous, it may be invalid under the Unfair Contract Terms Act. To make such an assessment an appropriate Employment Law firm would need to see the clause and pass professional judgement on it.

Then it comes down to who has the cleverest lawyers.

[Loki]

I`m one of many who would have wished for more mobility in their careers....I had moves blocked on more than one occasion due to a shortage of personnel (surely not). However, I understand the reluctance of many settled people to suddenly have to uproot and start again in a distant location.

The key factor here is the lack of choice and consultation, but we should not imagine that NATS is much different from many other employers. If management perceive a benefit from moving MACC to Scottish, or the far side of the moon, they are pretty much obliged to do it if the benefit is large enough....usually involves money somewhere along the line.

There are plenty of people about who did not want anything to do with Swanwick. A few of us had an escape route (early retirement, a posting to TC, alternative employment etc).Most of us however had to go along with it. I do not remember anybody suggesting strike action, and I do not suppose it would have got any support from the rest of NATS staff anyway.

If you can get out of it, go for it, otherwise make the best you can out of what for you is a cr*p situation. You have my sympathy, but talk of industrial action is fanciful.

[250 kts]

It suited many of the staff at MACC to be mobile or have to move 200 miles when they failed to validate at LATCC both in AC & TC. You can't have it both ways.

NATS saves millions over the next few years with the 2 centre strategy-you can be part of its' future or not-your choice!!

It has been well known that this was going to happen but too many people at MACC believed naively that it wouldn't.

I look forward to seeing some of you down here to bolster our numbers but I suspect most will go north and actually enjoy it when you get there.

Also can't see too many taking redundancy under 50. In most cases once an ATCO always an ATCO and not too many area jobs out there within 200 miles of Manchester.

Without room to expand the present ops room at MACC what is the other logical alternative to what is planned-a single operation at LACC with all the concerns about contingency or a new centre at Prestwick with just the present operation there which is not viable financially? I don't think so-for once NATS has probably got its' long term strategy right.

[mhk77]

250kt, the main problem is that people at MACC DIDN'T know that this was going to happen. I was speaking to a number of MACC controllers not 3 months ago and they all had been led to believe that the 'West' side of the Ops room would go to Scotland and the 'East' side move to Swanwick. And this was the very worst case scenario as at that time there were still rumours that MACC might even go down to Swanwick as a whole operation! To use a quote of a friend of mine, the people at MACC have been treated by NATS and MACC management like mushrooms- keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em ****e!

[jocko0102]

For those who dont know what has been going on or think we are just suffering from sour grapes , then please understand that to have so many conflicting stories over many years and during that time never being asked our opinions quite frankly is a disgrace.

We are just the latest in a series of mismanaged blunders by this company and the union.

I have to agree that strike action would be a waste of time never mind the fact that i cant see how we could do it anyway.

Nobody has been honest with us and that is what so many people find so hard to take.

[250 kts]

Maybe it's time some of your managers resigned then. I know the GM has gone already and been replaced by someone who was close to the LACC move. But you're not telling me that the Manager ATC (area) was as in the dark as the rest of you seem to have been. Time for heads to roll methinks. He could always take a posting to ScACC should his position become untennable!!

[niknak]

Its obvious that the majority of staff who will be affected by the "enforced move", will be ATCAs, not ATCOs.

I don't mean to be rude guys, but from a management viewpoint, ATCAs are a very replacable commodity, after all, the local knowledge you have at MACC can be taught to the bright young things on the job market in Ayrshire.

ATCO's will be offered all sorts of inducements to move, and the majority will accept, the few who remain will be absorbed back into NATS or MAN PLC when they bring the running of MAN ATC back "in house".

Please don't delude yourselves that this will not happen, because it will, it's simply a matter of time.

[Arran's view]

jocko

The NSC is a political decision and most people with half a brain know that.

I don't think your half brain has been focused for the last couple of years. The NSC and now NPC business case has been one of the most complete and thoroughly tested business cases NATS has ever made. It has had to be because the original O date was 1996 and it has been examined by the CAA as owners, the Government as directors, the private sector as PFI bidders, the airlines as owners, the CAA as economic regulators and IATA airlines as customers. It must have passed you by somehow at Manch.

Basic fact - 2 centre strategy concentrated on the two current biggest sites.

2nd centre built at minimal cost using new technology which will be the proving ground for a possible Swanwick repalcement.

Never planned to go to Swanwick because the system there is too expensive to double in size and maintain. Just one of the many considerations is the cost of operating each sector. To take the 20+ sectors which are Scottish and Manch and staff it with LACC paid ATCOs and ATSA 4s in a permanent T,P & A operation is more staff than NATS has and more money than it will have.

There are lots of other parts of the business case which your managers know so why not go and ask them.

We have been fed so much crap over the last few years regarding a possible move.We have never been given a straight answer to any queries about it.

Most of the crap is because you haven't been watching what was being said elsewhere or asking questions of your managers. When the decision was announced about Manch coming north nearly 2 years ago what did Mr Robinson have to say to the staff ? What staff meetings did he hold ? What consultation did he hold about your options ? If you didn't ask him then don't expect too much sympathy from elsewhere.

Just one contrast in the approach from elsewhere. We recently heard that there was a proposal to change airspace in conjunction with the Irish. Staff here were upset to the point that the Director of Area services and Finance director came and spoke to the staff within a week. A well attended meeting with day section engineers and ATCOs as well as operational staff on their days off. Didn't solve all the problems but stopped the rumour mill dead in it's tracks.

The information has been there for years if you chose to read it instead of hoping it would never happen.

[Numpo-Nigit]

I can't help wondering what cries of anguish we would have heard if NATS had decided to relocate all the OKS staff to Scotland. Even the ongoing move to the sunny south coast has caused a rearguard action worthy of the retreat to Dunkerque!!! So many people, it seems, have discovered all-important reasons why they just MUST remain in the London area - even in that terrible West Drayton place which many avoided like the plague until recently!!!

The sad truth within NATS is that those who have to move usually don't want to, whilst those who want to are too vital to the operation to be released.

I wish those folks at Manchester who don't wish to emigrate north all the best in whatever game plan they have - just don't expect ANY help or sympathy from your GM.

[jocko0102]

Dear Mr Arran,

If the NSC had not been built in Prestwick there would have been cries of foul play from all sorts of people trying to point out that the poor areas of the country were being shat on or god forbid if they decided not to have one in Scotland at all!

The fact is NATS and good business cases dont go together.

Are you saying for example that a brown field site could not have been found in and around Edinburgh with lots of incentives from the local council etc to make Nats relocate there.

And your point about us not asking questions is absurd.
We have been asking questions for years and have never been told the truth. Not once have we been asked about our preferences if we were to be moved. As has been said we were even given the impression they might have moved half the sectors up and half down (and that was not that long ago).

We are just another in a long line of situations in which decisions are made without thinking properly about the impact to the staff.

[Arran's view]

jocko

Are you saying for example that a brown field site could not have been found in and around Edinburgh with lots of incentives from the local council etc to make Nats relocate there.

Well yes I am saying that. Inward investment grants are under the control of the Scottish Executive and even they might have spotted that closing a big business at Prestwick and expecting the public to move 600 people to a more expensive place is not a great plan for wasting public money. The 100 plus Manch jobs are going to Prestwick anyway so who is going to pay extra to move them elsewhere in Scotland ?

The fact is NATS and good business cases dont go together.

Not all the time do they get it wrong. They did manage to spot that having an ATC Centre in the middle of an international airport is not exactly good business sense.

And your point about us not asking questions is absurd.
We have been asking questions for years and have never been told the truth. Not once have we been asked about our preferences if we were to be moved. As has been said we were even given the impression they might have moved half the sectors up and half down (and that was not that long ago).


I do apologise. When were these formal meetings and where are the management statements which contradict the announced national policy ?

[Minesapint]

NSC IS a political decision - the only reason that the business case has been so "well tested" is because the thing has been dragging on for years.

Due to the strength of feeling at MACC its about time they re-thought where MACC should go. I say stick it into Swanwick on a NODE (existing type kit) or a SATCA system. Cheap alternative.

Only a fool would even consider wasting millions on plugging MACC into the NERC FDP system.

People first!

[Findo]

Only a fool would even consider wasting millions on plugging MACC into the NERC FDP system.
Where is that planned to happen minesapint ?

[jocko0102]

Its staying at Prestwick because they dont want to upset the bloody locals!

Nats is run by idiots who never get it right until years have passed and then they claim a success.

For those who have never been to MACC or dont know what has been going on , we have been asking for years and years about our future and have NEVER BEEN GIVEN AN HONEST STRAIGHT FORWARD ANSWER!!!!

So we are pissed off (not with the people at Prestwick) at the way we have been treated and our so called unions lack of urgency in pursuing answers for us.

Nats has a huge problem brewing here they better start doing something about it now!

[Greebson]

You chaps at MACC will get little or no sympathy from ANY other area controller outside manchester, because, you are all at the place the vast majority of area controllers would like to be. As they see it you've been lucky to get where you are, but it's time to move to join the folks that couldn't join you.

[2 six 4]

jocko0102 - I can't see that you have answered any of the points that have been made to explain what has happened.#

Your view always seems to be poor me nobody told me anything and I don't believe anything they say anyway. Maybe you (personally) and your management deserve each other.

My vote goes with greebson and 250kts but no doubt somebody will spend a lot of time and negotiate a nice package for you and you'll still whinge. :ugh:

[250 kts]

And all this moaning from a unit which had the highest percentage of union NON-members. Bet they've all joined now so Prospect can be blamed for something we all knew was going to happen. I see the union has already taken stick over this-well it's only as strong as the members.

Greebson you're right there is NO sympathy down here for what is going on-just as I suspect there was little at MACC when Swanwick was being developed.

[jocko0102]

Ok for the benefit of some of you who still dont appear to accept that we here at MACC have been left in the dark.


As happens in this organisation rumour control is rife and many years ago it started circulating about a possible move.
However it did not specify where although as you can imagine several theories emerged as to why/where/when.

Now over the subsequent years we DID confront our managers about the rumoured move and were always told "nothing to worry about we know nothing and besides i doubt it would happen"

The staff at LATCC (as it was) were given 4 options i believe as to where they wanted to go. And 250 kts despite what you believe you did get sympathy from up here when it became obvious that you had been shat on and were being moved to Swanwick, which according to ex LATCC guys up here was not the most popular choice.

The staff at Prestwick were never in danger of going anywhere because the political powers that be were never going to let that happen.

From the moment the rumours started until the official "you are moving" announcement the staff (controllers and assistants) have been asking about our possible move.

Whether Swanwick or Prestwick back us is not so much of an issue to most people here.The staff here have a problem about being moved to somewhere they dont want to go to after many years of trying to extract the truth from mangement.

Despite what anyone outside Manchester believes or thinks they know there are a lot of staff here leaving/looking at alternative careers/requesting moves to Swanwick etc.

Yes people will move to the NSC but Nats have handled this so badly that yet again they have lost the trust of the staff.

[Findo]

jocko0102

I said some days ago -

The final decision to move MACC into the then NSC was taken and published by the NATS board in October 2001. The fact that the Manchester management have failed to convey that simple fact and the associated business case is for MACC staff to ask of their managers.

I think people will wonder why it has taken you nearly 2 years for this to be raised formally with your managers ( I presume it is now formal ). I wonder which "you are moving" announcement you are now talking about. Certainly for the last 2 years it has been a published part of NATS business plans that the 2 centre strategy has a date for all the moves to be completed.

[Minesapint]

Maybe NATS management should look to BA for what happens when staff are not consulted over large scale change. Its not enough to say that you are a 'mobile grade'. What is the cost differential in moving MACC to Swanwick? Could Swanwick take the extra staff on a TC like platform?

I think that its similar but Don't really know - does anyone? Has anyone asked?

Findo.

The MACC onto NERC system was a response to a previous post.

[250 kts]

Look at an earlier post-I heard that NATS saves £1bn+ on its' present strategy. Also would it really be worth building NPC just for the ScOACC operation-unlikely!!

[Fidgell]

This is not about relocation packages its about quality of life. Many MACC ATCOs came to Manchester (fortunately i agree) because of failure to validate at LATCC, reasons being the eliteist few who seek to enhance their own inadequacies in life. These Student ATCOs in the main had a difficult time at LATCC and had to undergo what i beleive is called a training review, where they practically have to beg for another chance... hardly a situation anyone would relish.

So, why do these eliteist members feel MACC ATCOs are lucky?? Are they applying to lose their quality of life by moving to NSC?? Hardly!

Truth is, MACC doesnt want a move south either it just wants the truth from the start and answers as to why the staff have NEVER been part of the discussion/decision stages of this farce. MACC ATCOs have now been promised meetings individually with management to discuss their options!!! They are but two, Prestwick or leave, and as Prestwick doesnt suit so many then i fear NATS remaining staff will burden the brunt of yet more staff shortage as quality staff move abroad leaving a bigger farce in their wake.

Staff are NATs biggest and only asset, apparently we are the future....or maybe the start of NATs past.

[Arkady]

"Many MACC ATCOs came to Manchester (fortunately i agree) because of failure to validate at LATCC, reasons being the eliteist few who seek to enhance their own inadequacies in life."

Fidgell, I agree completely. Why should that elitist few get a second chance at MACC to "enhance their own inadequacies". LATCC OJTIs will have put a lot of hard work in trying to get these "few" to validation standard and then had to take the very difficult decision (and it is difficult) to terminate their training. And what do these ungrateful "eliteist few" then go and do? Beg to be sent to MACC so they can get a better quality of life than their colleagues at LATCC, LACC, and Scottish. Shame on them.

Fidgell, I'm sorry you have to work with such people, however it sounds like they will leave NATS rather than move North so when you start at the NSC you'll be rid of them.

:E

[Fidgell]

Ahhh is Arkady a comedian?? Or are they just one of those eliteist few scared to admit someone new to NATS may well be able to do their job too???

Student ATCOs beware of Arkady, youll see them whispering in the staff rooms of NERC too cowardly to help you by giving you ongoing training and support, but instead telling you when all hope is lost....

Not all is bad though trainees, hope lies the other end of the M6 where helpful people, proud of your success at the college will walk you through the final stages of training into your career. NSC or not that will not change. Youll be welcome!
:ok:

[Arkady]

Fidgell

What possible advantage can anyone gain from failing trainees? LATCC and LACC are desperately short of controllers and while we remain short it is the valid ATCOs who suffer. There are no hidden agendas. If someones training is terminated it is because they are not making the required progress. Any student feeling victimised by a milestone assessment has the daily report forms to refute any perceived injustice. The decision to terminate training is made by the whole training team, OJTIs and WTM and it is based on the Students daily progress. What you imagine happens simply is not possible.

When you were chopped it was because you were not good enough for the amount of time invested in you. Accept it, learn from it and move on.

[2 six 4]

Truth is, MACC doesnt want a move south either it just wants the truth from the start and answers as to why the staff have NEVER been part of the discussion/decision stages of this farce.

OK now hands up ALL the NATS ATCOs who had an input to the business plan ....................


errrrrr none ?


:{ :{ :{

[250 kts]

Fidgell,

Those are two of the most disgraceful posts I have read in the ATC section. You intimate that the training system chops people indiscriminately whether they deserve it or not-well that's just a load of BALIX and you know it. I suspect from your post that you failed at LATCC-well how many hours were you given-very few are chopped at less than 300 hours of live training and if they are then it is clear that they are not going to make it at that unit.

The training pressures at LACC and TC are far ahead of what is experienced at the other area units just because there are so many trainees in the system. And then when the decision is made to stop training they arrive at a quieter unit with 300+ radar hours under their belts-validation should frankly, then be a formality. And if things go badly at MACC they are given watch changes to ensure validation-a luxury we don't have at the other units.

I reckon you need to get that bloody great chip off your shoulder and grow up by realising that the system is not perfect but as Arkady states the more valid staff we have the quicker we aren't doing the double nights every cycle and the better we can cope with the glut of staff who are on individual/part-time contracts.

You're right though on one point and that is that trainees should be welcomed to your unit directly from the college-with a proviso in their contract that they will be posted to LACC or TC within 5 years. This way if the training at your unit is so good there will be a 100% validation rate and with a few years experience under their belts a very low failure rate on posting to the busier units.

I would also say that your options are precisely the same as ours in that we have no option over our future-it's Swanwick/TC or nothing unless you have a cast iron personal case-funny we never get personal cases which involve a move to the South East.

I wish you all the best up there but nobody has yet come up with arguments against the financial case and the inability to extend the operation at MACC due to ops room constraints.

[Point Seven]

Fidgell


And have you ever contemplated the notion that the reason you failed was because YOU WEREN'T UP TO IT?

Always easier to blame someone else though.

P7

[Gonzo]

P7,

Of course, there are those of us who worked our collective behinds off and stayed here as valid controllers, while we see others who don't make it get a better quality of life and a posting to what seems like the unit of their choice.

How many times have you heard in the rest room.... "Well, I wish I'd failed my training here, then I'd be at Manchester!" Said only half in jest, because that's what it really feels like here.

But of course, that's what we get for being an 'elitist few'!!!

[Point Seven]

Gonzo

That's right mate and then our frindly union nobble us. Something about "standing up for it's weakest members" I was told.

My reply was "What about the stronger ones?"

And at least you can spell elitist. ;)

P7

[watchingbrief2000]

Hey, Jocko

What is the attraction of Edinburgh?
In case you don't know, the whole area has seen house prices rocket since the Scottish Parliament was set up there. The only advantage that EDI has over the Prestwick/Glasgow area is that it has a little less rain, should'nt bother anyone from EGCC though, it's wet there too!
Would you be one of those crass and ignorant English people that think ALL of Scotland is just like that on the Hogmanay show?
Good Luck with the alternate career. :O
Watchingbrief2000

[Scott Voigt]

Just wait a MINUTE!

You mean the tele is all lies???? Darn, and just when I thought y'all were just like Hamish McBeth <G>....

Scott

[250 kts]

Fidgell,

Where are you???

Surely having a chip removed can be done under local anaesthetic-or was it sooooooo big you had to have a general??!!!:D ;) :confused:

[Jerricho]

Always easier to blame someone else though

Well, hurry up and get your OJTI ticket, so we can blame you! ;)

BTW, I can't spell elitist either.

But seriously Fidgel, I think you had better go back to you Anger Management therapist and tell them that the suggestion of venting on an anonymous internet forum is just making you look a little out of your depth.

(Edited cause we all know I can't spell!)

[DC10RealMan]

I understand that new EC regulation is to be introduced shortly concerning stress in the workplace. I would suggest that NATS could be sued by the staff both at LACC and Manchester concerning the stress and hassle, both domestic and professional, that has arisen from the relocation to Swanwick and the proposed relocation of Manchester. Just because we are a "Mobile Grade" and/or Operational Resource does not mean that we are not human beings, or does it?.

[Fidgell]

Well, now all that hot air has passed ill respond...
Firstly, I do appreciate the pressures of having an OJTI ticket, and yes I do have one too - but i enjoy exercising the right of it, and I get a thrill from seeing a talented trainee take the final step to validation.
Im interested in some of your comments though, are you honestly calling MACC a quiet unit??? PLEASE, southeast one of Europes busiest... S29 handling more traffic than it ever did at LATCC... and sure I beleive LACC guys/gals sit in coffee rooms wanting to be us, goes without saying really :E
DC10, I agree some folk will have big problems with the moves as some have situations outside work that NATS just simply couldnt understand or help with. However, can any of us see them offering the continued support that this may require. They dont care, me and you are moveable items like the furniture and thus shall be treated as such.
So, I gotta go for now ( probably better open some more of my windows in anticiaption of more of the previous hot air heading north!!! ).
I for one will look forward to the liason visits of these god like coffin-dodgers err i mean senior members of staff coming to MACC to see us ATCOs who "cant hack it" doing a first class job at one of our "quieter units"...

Come on guys wake up to the real world... this one doesnt start and stop in Southampton!!!

Fidgell

[Jerricho]

That's right, the world doesn't start and stop in Southampton. I still haven't heard any comments about OKS staff and Thames/SVFR having to move. Can anybody shed light on some of their thoughts, or doesn't their opinion matter?

Fidgell, reference your enjoyment and thrill at the successful outcome of a validation, are you that narrow minded that you believe you are the only person with a ticket who feels this way? Or, do you believe TC mentors are heartless b@stards who take great pleasure in, as I'm sure you would describe it, "giving the chop". I think the only hot air being produced is through your venting.

[250 kts]

Just had a thought about all this.

As the chairman of the BEC is a MACC controller,wouldn't you have thought there would have been endless motions to the Annual Conference demanding to know the truth about what the plan was for MACC. Have there been such motions from a membership who weren't being told the truth?-NO, not that I have been able to find.

There were a few about the location of the car park and claims for extra money because of the long walk into work but NONE about the lack of information about a move 200 miles north.

Seems like this really did take them by surprise or were the heads so far in the sand nobody bothered to read the business plan from two years ago.

Also I await the arguments against the financial savings from the move and the inability to expand the operation within the present ops room.

And Fidgell you're right, NATS has no responsibility for spouse/partner incomes as many of the LACC staff will verify. Yes it is painful having to move but that's what your contract says so leave or move-the option is yours.

If I'm incorrect about the motions I look forward to somebody posting a copy of what was put to conference and was the motion carried.

And as a parting shot I don't know a single OJTI who is not thrilled to see a person validate. It is the culmination of lots of hard work for both the student and for the mentors involved. And remember they are our early retirement!!

[250 kts]

Well two days have passed and still no sign of those motions to the annual conference!!

[250 kts]

Guess there weren't any motions then!!

And for Fidgell-5 new validations at LACC in the last 2 weeks-guess the "coffin dodgers" aren't doing too badly after all. roll on the early retirement.;) ;) :) :) :ok:

[Fidgell]

Do photocopier validations count down there???:E

Still, shows youve still got it eh?!!

As for "motions" Im off to put down some of my own....

:yuk:

[Point Seven]

The only good motions are bowel motions.:ok:

P7

[lukewarmskywa*ker]

Maybe you would all like to remember that if your grades were truly mobile, you would have been able to 'sell' your skills (be they TC, Area or Manch) elsewhere.

The sad truth is that your management is saying that you are mobile enough to move North, but not quite mobile enough to move east (for example).

Treaty of Rome? Forget it. If all things were equal (ie if NATS honestly dealt with the issues of lots of UK controllers wanting to go elsewhere), you would presumably find them listening a bit more closely to what you say.
As it is, they have restricted your movements via barely legal political arm-twisting. Still, look on the bright side, your powder must STILL be dry. :O

[250 kts]

luke,

But that is the whole point-the grade is mobile-but it seems at MACC only to apply when it suits the individuals concerned. They signed the contract and many of them were grateful for a second chance having failed to validate at the busier units in the south east. But now that NATS have a strategy for the future with MACC moving north they cry "foul".

The ability to move east is a different issue as I suspect you well know. I have no doubt that former management twisted some arms at Maastricht to stem the possible flow from NATS but there were still a small number who made the move anyway.

There are other opportunities around the world for area but all involve major lifestyle changes and anyway which is preferable Winnipeg or Prestwick?????

I suspect things are settling down at MACC following the initial shock and that staff are coming to terms with the decision by NATS. Careful management is needed from the top down and in 5 years time people will ask what all the fuss was about.

[bagpuss lives]

Without wishing to enter into the playground style "our unit is better than yours" debate that some people here seem childishly intent on, I'd like to draw your attention to a few things.

Firstly regarding the move issue - may I ask - what is the actual distance between Swanwick and West Drayton?

Not massive compared to Manch to Prestwick is it really?

What some seem to forget is that a move north for us also entails moving to what is practically a different country.

You may scoff at that but it's a different educational system, a vastly different legal system and yes, a totally different sociological and cultural structure.

The same can hardly be said for a move from London to just outside can it?

Add that to the aforementioned difference in move distances and you surely can see that the MACC move is not in any way comparable to the move to NERC. It's a different kettle of fish. Or jellied eels if you like.

Also, personally I don't care *where* someone validates as long as they can do the job safely. They're my colleague and I don't like to see anyone fail no matter the unit or background. Some here seem to think that those who have been given a "second" chance (your words, not mine) are lesser mortals who don't seem to be entitled, in your eyes, to the same rights or complaints as you simply because it's not worked out for them at another unit - busier or not.

You may be busier down south, I don't really think that's an issue worthy of debate - the figures are there to prove it - but certain people here are also incredibly arrogant and egotistical in thinking their unit is "the best", they have more rights and what they say is gospel simply because they shift more blips per hour or whatever.

It's that type of attitude that's mostly unhelpful to new students and where these ridiculous cross-unit bickers come from.

Please stop the comparisons with the moves and quit with the unit-egos. We're all "supposed" to be on the same "side" and be colleagues.

Not juveniles arguing over who has the biggest conkers in the playground.

[Arkady]

Niteflite

I agree that the distances involved make the MACC move North a far more formidable change than the AC move South, but they do compare. They compare because the Terms and Conditions for MACC Staff are the same as the T & C for LATCC/LACC Staff.

So do you want preferential treatment?

I think you may have a case but you will need the support of the LATCC/LACC ATCOs (who will see you getting a better deal than they got/will get) and the ScAOCC ATCOs (who are going to get nothing).

Or do you simply not want to move?

If that is the case you have two options, go North or resign. Its a pretty lousy choice to have to make if you really are dead set against Scotland and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when the time comes.

Whatever your situation the sooner you stop fighting the inevitable and get down to making the best of it the happier you will be. This isn't an argument for supporting NATS policy, its a method for dealing with change. The longer you refuse to accept it, the harder it will be when it comes.

[250 kts]

niteflite,

I'll address your points in turn.

Yes a move to Swanwick from LATCC can be compared because it includes all of the same issues. eg schooling,selling of property,loss of partner's job,moving away from long time friendships.etc.etc

Not sure the legal system is a real issue unless you intend to get on the wrong side of it!! I certainly don't hear lots of people complaining about it and indeed when it comes to property it is vastly superior. The Scottish education system is also much better than what we have down here. I also hear that there are a number who are looking to move to Canada-a different country with a different legal/education system so I think that one is laid to rest.

I only used the "failure to validate " argument as an example. I am sure that most if not all of the valid ATCOs at MACC would have no trouble validating at LATCC/LACC. But you can't defend the fact that they were happy to take a move as trainees as stated in their contract to secure their position in NATS so what is different as a valid ATCO-or as you put it should that only apply to "lesser mortals"??

There is no real attitude about traffic levels and units-it's just a fact of life that the guys at the south-east units get pasted day in day out summer and winter and often in the early hours as well-fact. They are under-staffed and many would just love to be given the opportunity to be able to escape the rat race to a quieter unit/area but know that will never be a possibility but see the likes of MACC complain when something like this happens.

Arkady is right in that the sooner you accept the inevitable the better for all concerned.

Yes we are all on the same side and work for the same company which has made a decision which hopefully will secure the jobs together with the T&C for those that continue to work for NATS.

[bagpuss lives]

250 kts I always enjoy reading your posts here as sometimes you talk a lot of sense and I have a great respect for you.

I do see what you are saying here and respect you for it too but I still really don't agree with you on the whole trainee and Canada thing.

People are moving to Canada out of personal choice. There is a vast difference in deciding to move out yourself then being told where and when you are going whether you like it or not.

I could also say that as a proportion of our total staffing the number of ex-LATCC trainees we have at Manch is tiny so I still really can't see what the point is arguing about them specifically when it's the rest of us that are complaining more vociferously. They're probably an easy target I suppose.

I also wasn't aware that, in the terms of their relocation up to MACC and "second chance" all those years ago, it was also stipulated that they should accept gladly wherever the company wants to shove them in 7 years time regardless of distance and feasability.

I don't really want to get all petty about this as I realise that there is little or no support from other units. I understand that and accept the reasons for it. I don't blame any of you I mean, it's not you or your families moving is it?

You can also mention the old "mobile grade" business but how often do you hear of valid ATCO's being forcefully posted to another unit so far away? Never, of course. It wouldn't be reasonable would it?

Quite.

As it stands now the company is going to be in mucho trouble come move time as at least 80% of my colleagues are seriously looking to bail out. I realise that, as has happened before, this may result in nothing and, come the time, people will indeed be wondering what all the fuss was about (see PPP etc etc etc) but that's a pretty big gamble wouldn't you say - at the moment anyhow?

I am a realist however (believe it or not) and yes, I do accept that we will be moving in 7 years time - as for how many of us and under what terms remains to be seen.

P.S. sadly, none of us at MACC can do anything about traffic levels at other units (apart from taking huge chunks of airspace of course ;) ) as none of us are responsible for who gets posted where. So if people are bitter about being somewhere busy and being understaffed, I see no reason why those up here that voice their concerns about a wide range of issues like this one should be held accountable or their opinions be voided?

P.P.S My egotist comments weren't only aimed at people on other units.

[Fidgell]

Maybe if 250 cant cope with the traffic that pastes him so much...he should move to Prestwick?? :E

As for his "second chancers" maybe they were happy to move ANYWHERE to save losing their job, now having forged many years into their and their famillies lives they dont want to upset that balance with such a difficult move to somewhere vastly different in many respects? A move for a single ATCO is vastly easier than us fortunate family providers!!!

I think 250 should have a liason visit to MACC and try working the South East at 7am, oh no of course he'd do it with his hands behind his back wouldnt he....

Well 250 il fight back.... my dads harder than yours!!!

Go on, throw your rattle sonny.

Fidgell

[250 kts]

Fidgell,

By the time of the posting I think you've come off a particularly arduous night shift!

There are few who can't take the constant "pasting". All I said was that some would just love to get away from the constant traffic especially as they get older but are unable to do so-fact. Fortunately for me this is not the case-yet-but who knows in the future?

I would happily come and do the 0700 session which i guess is all over by around 0800 and swap it for the Clacton or Daventry 0530 till 2330 session!!! Every unit has busy times we all know that but the SE of the UK is much less seasonal than the regions-fact.

niteflite shows the reasoned arguments at MACC not the type of posting you have treated us to in the past couple of weeks.

And I'm still waiting for the alternatives to be put forward against the NATS plan. ie. where can future airspace development happen in an already overcrowded ops room at MACC together with the vast amounts of money which are saved by the 2 centre strategy. Something which is needed if we are to maintain our current T&Cs. Also would the new centre be built at all if it were just to house the present ScOACC operation-I doubt it,and a single centre strategy is not an option-fact.

We all know that moving is unpopular but in this case necessary and we look forward to welcoming some of you guys to the south coast. I wish you all the very best wherever you end up.:D :D

[Jerricho]

Fidgell, I have to disagree with your comment about moves being easier for single people as opposed to families. Are you implying that people's domestic status should be included in decisions reference who should be moved and who stays? IMHO, every person will be affected my a move in their own way. Some people will relish the opportunity, and others may not cope so well.

I grant that not everybody likes change, however as has been mentioned, we ARE mobile grades. Infact, I'm sure many ATS providers the world over stipulate on initial recruitment of ATCO's the "mobile" status of staff.

And if I may, how many people in Manchester were posted there directly from the college as their first preference? Our course were told straight out it wasn't an option (and I realise we are getting into staffing issues here.......). And what is the percentage that came form other units (I'm not trying to unit-bash here) and if so, from where? I know of people in TC who have 0% chance of getting a transfer there at the moment (I know, staffing again), but I am interested in knowing how people got there in the first place.

Personally, I don't want to live in London (or within a commutable distance), but have no chance of a transfer within NATS. As are others............

[Fidgell]

Jerricho,

The issue of where someone was prior to their move to MACC is largely irrelevent to them once theyve gone through the dreaded training review to plead for their job. I do feel that thinking back to college days we all hated the prospect of Aberdeen - but following a training review many cadets wouldve jumped at the chance to go there or anywhere to keep their job.

I wasnt implying someones personal life should exempt them from the move, quite the opposite. If I were a young single bloke Id hate the thought of Prestwick even more!!! Merely the fact that with a family theres so many things to consider and other peoples quality of life too. Id hate to move my family anywhere against their will to somewhere they hate just because of my job, after all thats why they have to pay me to be there!!!

Ive never doubted the fact we are a mobile grade, but where can this stop before it becomes unreasonable? A move to a new country with a different culture and the problems this can entail maybe fine for some but not for others. All we needed was a full consultation process throughout this whole matter and many would be placated by now. Granted some would still be being a problem as they love that (sure we all know colleagues like that). We arent the furniture but feel treated like it and to now be told we have a consultation with management individually is purely papering the cracks.

They feel they have to now talk to us all, and lets be honest whos gonna go in there and tell management they will leave before moving?? No, nothing good can come of these meetings so we waste more time and stir up more bad feeling.

When I arrived at MACC I thought it was another world, people with morale and eager to welcome new folk... as opposed to LATCC where the weight of the world was on all. Sadly, I now see the start of this here, and boy the future certainly aint bright or orange for some people here, or for management...Exactly! only one of these matters!!!

Were gonna loose quality staff and replace them with who?? Recruitment and training has slowed... bet theres many eastern europeans planning there move here asap.

RIP Nats??

Fidgell

[Jerricho]

At last Fidgell, an intelligent post without taking cheap shots at 250 kts and others, people who's opinion many people value.

I feel you missed my point a little regarding where people were prior to being posted to Manchester. It was a legitimate question regarding where people came from and how they got there. It wasn't implying anything about "you failed but get a better chance in going to MACC", but being genuinely interested in how people who's preference it was to go there from the start of their career. Or how many people started and validated at another unit, then were posted to MACC?

We all know morale isn't the greatest in many of the units, and I can only directly speak regarding TC. But, there are some people there who were already banking on being at Swanwick, and the prospect of spending another uncertain couple of years at West Drayton depressing. Plus, at the moment, there are those who have attempted to make use of the "mobile clause" of their position to move somewhere else but alas, no chance (again I know...staffing issues are a major point here). My initial preference was TC, but under the guise of being at Swanwick by now (silly me!).

And may I throw this open to the floor as I don't know the answer to this. Did the guys and gals in Thames/SVFR at EGLL tower know the would be ending up at Swanwick in the not to distant future? Or the staff from OKS?