Women in Aviation

[WestWind1950]

no, flying is not just for men, just as it's not just " for the birds"! :D

Picking up on a discussion in the thread "Pink Headsets" (if you haven't read it yet, your missing something!) I've decided to start a new thread about women in aviation. We are still much in the minority and there are many reasons for it. Questions that arise are:

why don't more women fly?

do men really think women shouldn't be flying, that it's only a man's world? (and don't come to me with the expression, if God meant for women to fly, he would have made the skies pink! ääääh, sorry Pink Aviator, no pun intended! ;) )

what kind of problems did you as a woman experience in your training?

do you have the feeling, that you had no, or very little, support from your fellow flight instructors and/or buddies?

what got you started in flying?

how do you manage family and flying?

does Hubby fly too?

oh, there are many more questions, but these may give a good start for a discussion.

I, too, will add my experiences, but I want to get this thread started. So ladies, get out your keyboards and type away!!!

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[In Altissimus]

OK - As you asked for men's comments too - I'll take the bait:O

I don't agree that many of the 'issues' Pinky have encountered are anything to do with being a 'woman in aviation'. And I feel it could be argued that you are being sexist by equating the burden of single parenthood with womanhood...

At both of the flying schools I went to there were a fair smattering of female instructors, and one of the senior ones at Stapleford is a woman. So there are plenty of good role models around, and have been since Ms Earhart did her stuff 60-odd years ago.

Taking your specific questions:

why don't more women fly?
Why don't more people fly?

do men really think women shouldn't be flying, that it's only a man's world?
I hope you're not seriously asking that.

what kind of problems did you as a woman experience in your training?
Were they any different to the blokes?

do you have the feeling, that you had no, or very little, support from your fellow flight instructors and/or buddies?
Ha! You should some of the laddish instructors fighting to help out any female students at most UK flying schools :yuk:

how do you manage family and flying?
Good question, how on earth do I juggle all these expectations and demands everyone places on my time?

does Hubby fly too?
:uhoh:

OK - I don't think I'm being at all sexist here - what I'm trying to say is that we all have problems with the committment involved in getting that yucky brown licence. Everyone has their own issues, and it's over-simplifying things to claim that women have one set of problems and men and have another.

I'm sure that women face a bigger challenge than men in professional flying - but that discussion doesn't belong in this forum.

Yours in equality,

IA.

[flower]

I don't fly , not through a desire not to but because I have a mortgage and a distinct lack of time however I am very much a women in aviation

My experiences are very different from those experienced by Whirlybird. I am an Air traffic Control Officer (ATCO) and can sincerely say I have never experienced any discrimination because of my gender, we undergo the same selection process, training and have the same opportunities to rise up the promotion ladder if that is what we choose to do. Our salary scales are exactly the same , and I have never ever in the workplace had any form of discrimination against me because of my gender. At my current unit there are only 4 ladies, 2 of which are ATCOs 1 an ATSA and 1 an engineer, i would reckon they would also say exactly the same as myself. We are unusually light in Female staff at my unit but other units it is very different with a much higher percentage of Ladies.

I have never had any problems from any male pilots either, or at my local flying club where I am always made to feel very welcome.

Have I simply been lucky, I don't think so . I have in the past experienced discrimination in my army days, the discrimination came from those of an older generation. Perhaps that is where the problem has been. Certainly the men who are of the same age group as myself have never even uttered anything which I could vaguely describe as against women in aviation.

Why arn't there more women , I don't really know, Aircraft simply do not appeal to a large section of the population. I have no interest in motorbikes for example I find then dull.

What can we do to make it more appealing, it is up to those of us already in it to show that its a great place to be, and bemoaning that we suffer discrimination certainly wouldn't attract many more into it would it.

[t'aint natural]

Why don't you join the British Women Pilots Association?
Check out their website on http://www.bwpa.demon.co.uk/

[Whirlybird]

Westwind,

Full marks for starting this! However, in several years as a PPRuNer, every thread I've seen on this subject has degenerated into prejudice and flaming. So let's hope this one can prove the exception.

I've written about this at some length on pink aviator's thread; I'm not going to repeat myself here. But to answer a few points which have come up....

In Altissiumus,

No, there are NOT "plenty of good role models around"; there are exceedingly few. 6% of PPLs are female, and under 3% of commercial pilots. These numbers have been about the same for years; check the CAA website's statistics if you want details...I'm not making it up. While you can't get it from the official stats, I gather I'm one of about A DOZEN female helicopter instructors in the UK! Bizarre, I call that. I barely met any women PPLs while I was training, and no instructors. It depends where you live, with numbers like that. I know of one flying school owned and run by a woman, where the f/w and rotary CFIs are both female, and there's one other part time female instructor too. They have around 50% of female students, and I can honestly say it's the only flying school where I've felt completely at home and am treated normally. That says something in itself, don't you think?

Yes, some men DO think women shouldn't be flying; do a search for old threads on this subject on PPRuNe, if the topics are still possible to get at. And to answer a later comment of yours, the prejudice, or sheer disbelief, gets LESS as you go further, and appears to be virtually non-existent in commercial aviation, in my albeit limited experience. It's at PPL level and among the general public that you get most of it.

Yes, women DO tend to have different problems to the blokes, as I discovered when I joined the BWPA, and found I was normal, not unique. A lot of it seems to come down to women tending (not always) to lack confidence...comes of having been told they can't do things from an early age. Young male instructors, used to often over-confident men, can put them down further, with often catastrophic results. As with all generalisations, there are exceptions, but I've experienced it, seen it, and heard about it... all quite a lot.

Of course everyone finds it hard to get a PPL. It isn't easy. But women do tend to have different problems. Equality is great, but it doesn't mean hiding your head in the sand.

And once when I brought this up on this forum some years ago, another woman was dead against what I was saying, and it appeared to be because she didn't want to upset the men on the forum!!! Nothing new in that; women have been tentatively accepted in areas that are predominantly male for years, but only by "being one of the lads", and keeping quiet about that nasty and uncool subject - prejudice. But you see, I don't do that. I say it how I see it. And if I'm not liked for it, tough. And often I'm not, by either men, who don't want these things pointed out, or by women, who fear a male backlash.

[flyingwelshman]

All,

Great idea for a post - intresting topic.

Just wanted to say, that when I was learning, I had a female insturctor and she was one of the best I had..... and now is off flying large aircraft that go further and faster than you or I.... so it can be done.

Also, my gf flies, and got into around the same time as me. However, when she was learnig, on an RAF Flying Scholarship - she was one of only two girls on the cource. Now, we regually argue about who is the best, and on the record it is of cource, me, but, if you promise not to tell her - I do think her aerobatics are a lot slicker than mine!

EKKL I presume your comments are in jest - it that sort of attitude which puts off the fair sex from joining the club..... if you are good enough, safe enough, and have the desire - then do it.

Best.

FW

P.S. Mile high club - lets be honest, guys just want to go to sleep after - someone has to fly us home! :O

[WestWind1950]

Hallo Whirlybird,

hardly has this thread been started and those "smart" type of comments you mentioned start up.

What's with it you guys? I, too, hope some of those comments weren't meant serious....

@EKKL
does your girlfriend/wife know how you feel about women?

@ t'ant natural
thanks for the tip but I'm already a member of the German women pilots organisation. When I first joined it was comforting to find that the problems I had encountered were not just ME.

One example out of my experience... I used to belong to a flying club that had many women, well..let's say they had a higher percentage then most. Women were generally accepted. I did glider flying as well as single engine and used to tow the gliders there with a PA 18 (great fun!). It came the time I went for instructor training. After passing all the exams and check ride, I wanted our head instructor to take me on for my observation time. Weeks went by, I heard nothing from him. Months went by, still nothing. In the meantime I had started training at a different school. After a year and a half I finally had the chance to confront him about it... he hesitated in answering then stated: " I don't sign up women instructors!" and he was serious! I couldn't believe it and told our clubs vice president, who promised to talk to him. Nothing happened! They ignored the whole thing! needless to say I left that club and I do my flying now elsewhere. Since then I have my CPL and I was head instructor for 2 years at my present club (I only quit that job because of time-pressure in my normal job and I was lucky to find someone to take it over).

I know many women who fly and ALL of them have similar stories to tell. I ask you all, why is that? After all, we women don't discriminate against you guys! :E

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[Maxflyer]

Whirlybird said, 6% of PPLs are female, and under 3% of commercial pilots

What percentage of women are interested in aviation compared to men? How many build models, photograph aircraft, wear anoraks?

Yes there are inequalities between the sexes, but harping on about it simply irritates and strengthens existing prejudices.

I received tuition from a female instructor during my PPL training, the school I learnt from is part owned and run by a woman (pilot). I have never heard anyone make reference to their ability based upon their gender, had I done so I would have complained accordingly.

As for hiding one's head in the sand; My wife is a full time accountant, we have children and two horses. We manage to cope wthout any additional burdens being placed on either of us. I understand that there are men out there who will not accept women as equals, but they are a dying breed.

Let's start looking forward and refrain from reinforcing streotypes that have no place in the 21st Century.

As I always tell people, "I wear the trousers in my marriage - when my wife tells me I can".

[PFLsAgain]

WestWind - thanks for the thread, and for the tip about the pink headsets one. Just spent 2 hours reading through it !

EKKL - EVEN if it was in jest, that reflects on you, not women. There are no words that can express my contempt.

In Altissimus - it's my experience that we only notice prejudice if it is directed against us. We tend not to notice if we are not the victims. As a woman who has recently gained a PPL, I can tell you I've experienced plenty of discrimination from the men around me.

I'm a scientist with more degrees than the whole of the flying staff put together, and no shortage of confidence or assertive attitude, and there are still blokes who treat me like a child. Only once though.

Some examples - I've been standing at the desk reading NOTAMS when one of the dinosaours rushes in and tells me the most appaling sexist joke making fun of violence against women, and then rushes out again. He made a special trip into the clubhouse to tell the joke, just because he saw me. Did it make him feel more like a man? And what of the males around me who looked embarrassedly at their feet but didn't protest? Then there was the instructor who criticised my radio call (which was correct procedure) to all and sundry as "women's logic", and the very next lesson proceeded to make the same call himself. Or how about the umpteen times I've been asked if my husband is a pilot (No - I, ME, I'm the one who decided to learn to fly. So I would only learn if my husband told me to - give me a break!). Or the times I've got out of the left hand seat and the refuellers have approached my husband, who got out of the right hand seat, and asked HIM how much fuel HE wanted. Don't they know which seat a C172 is flown from? I could go on, but you get the picture.

And that's the stuff that's directed against a woman who decided to learn to fly, and didn't give a stuff about who she upset to achieve it. How many more are put off before they get that far?

And finally - if one more patronising :mad: tells me "I must be brave" to learn to fly, I'll scream. They never seem to say that to the blokes.

/Rant over.

[mad_jock]

Westwind there are an amazing amount of Schools in the UK with exactly the same attitude concerning female instructors.

MJ

[flower]

<preparing to be dive-bombed>

Could it be the lack of understanding of the male of the species sene of humour that make some suspect they are being discriminated against. Having always worked in male dominated occupations I find that often an affectionate joke to them may be seen by some women as insulting where there was never meant to be an insult.

As for not seeing discrimination simply because you don't get it , I disagree . I would immediately see if someone was being sexist , or racist etc.

Can I ask if those figures for women commercial pilots are world-wide as there seem to be a lot more in the cockpit than just 3%.

I am sure we will see more and more coming through , girls in schools now realise that nothing can stop them if they want something.

If we stop doing something as well because we can't take the heat of banter at a flying club then we have ourselves to blame. I always find joining in makes it so much more fun.
Ok i'm a fairly confident person so maybe that is easier for me to do than others but I think if you were to ask any man they probably get something similar happen to them when they first join the flying club.

[flyingfemme]

Because there are so few of us in aviation, and I don't think we flaunt ourselves much, these things rarely get said.

I have never suffered gender discrimination (is that PC enough?) in aviation - but I didn't in engineering, motorcycling or computer programming either. I think it's all down to attitude; if you are in there, doing it, you generally get the respect. I also agree with Flower - if you don't take the comments seriously they go away.

Whirlybird has it right on the money - the more experience a male aviator has, the more he is used to female company in the cockpit.

Mr FF does fly; in fact, that's how we met (no, he wasn't my instructor). Makes life much easier IMHO - no quarrelling about spending time or money on flying toys....

I can't ever remember a put-down or prejudice with respect to flying. Even in South Africa (that hotbed of MCPiggery) I was treated as "one of the boys" and not left behind with the wives. Non-pilots often ask me if I am a flight attendant (when I say that I met Mr FF at flight school) but I don't take offence.

The confidence thing strikes a chord. I know I have a confidence problem; it makes me a very conservative pilot. Realistically I know I can do it but the doubts still linger. You rarely meet a male pilot who doubts himself! Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.....

All that said I must admit to not participating in the flying club scene - maybe that is the problem area?

The fact that not many women learn to fly is probably just down to proximity - if you aren't introduced to little aeroplanes, you rarely understand that you could fly them. Male pilots take their mates flying and let them "have a go" while the wives, if invited at all, sit in the back. I have only ever taken one woman flying who didn't enjoy it - she had a sinus problem and couldn't do altitude. Mostly they are fascinated and thrilled to try it.

Think about computers - not so long ago they were toys for boys, technical things. Now they are common tools and no-one is surprised if a woman has one!

[In Altissimus]

I didn't really want to contribute again so soon - but here goes...

Whirly,

I take your point entirely about the quantity (not quality) of role models - maybe I've been 'over-exposed'! Strangely - or not - I looked around my City office while reading your post, and only about 5% of my colleagues are women. Which leads me to wonder...

Maybe one of the underlying reasons that there are so few women in GA is that it is a stupidly expensive hobby to get into and, in our society, women are undoubtedly still discriminated against financially.


PFLsAgain,

Like Flower, I disagree about the perception of discrimination; what makes you think I have not been trained in such matters? Besides, nowhere in my post did I deny that gender discrimination exists in GA; you are choosing to interpret it that way though.

I'm not at all surprised by your real world example, but please don't imagine that just because I'm a white male I am incapable of being discriminated against.

By the way - that bit about the bravery - I think we all get that :D


Flyingfemme,

I agree with nearly everything you said, except about male pilots expressing self doubt. I think the truth is that some kinds of male pilot would never do that in front of a woman, I assure you they do to each other!

[BRL]

I have binned it.

[Pink_aviator]

West wind,,a great start,and some provocative comments.
I personaly ,hav't met with any predudice,but i have only been flying since easter.

I must be odd but i do not actually mind being in a minority,in a male dominated field.

I am not competing with them ,to be better,to try and get higher exam marks or even superior plane handleing skills.

I just want to prove to myself that i can achieve ,the seemingly difficult operations, that have to be aquired and remembered inorder to be a safe and consistent piolt.

I do how ever get a buzz if i answer a question right ,before a man, a secret smug feeling ,that girls are great to.
I am actually a whole load of contradictions about what i want men to be and women to be, but as time goes on and i have had to do "male " things, i realise that I can do them and men shouldn't have always been puton a pedastool,by me .

I'LL stop and think for a while as i'm not very good at putting together constructive aurgument,and am likley to say something contrevertial.

I just wanted to add my support for your thread WEST WING,
and thought WHIRLYBIRD, made some good points.

I've just remembered,I heard one man had said about me (behind my back ofcourse)
That i was not suitably dressed for flying,
ummp, well i dress as i feel comfortable,it is different sometimes and excentric,but thats me ,and i do not need to pretend i'm something i'm not.

PINK-AVIATOR

[QNH 1013]

Does anyone have a definitive reference to the percentage of female pilots before the second world war? I ask because I remember reading somewhere that it was a much higher percentage than now.
My mother, now in her 80's, still bemoans the fact that her brother was taken to see Alan Cobham's Flying Circus but despite all her begging, her father wouldn't take her along too. She and her brother were fascinated by flying and the exploits of Amy Johnson et al. She would have loved to learn to fly but never felt she had the opportunity. Her brother did learn, paid for by the RAF, but unfortunately his Lancaster was shot down in 1944.
Unusually, my mother enjoys flying in really rough weather; the worse the turbulence and the weather, the more she enjoys it. She is very frail now, but still wants to go flying.

[maflsc]

Not wishing to up end the apple cart so to speak but you guys don't know what it is like to be a female and learning to fly.
I had one instructor who told me "if i did the next engine failurs correctly we could land and he would reward me under the trees at the end of the paddock'. I changed schools.
We not asking for anyhing extra just to be given the same chance as you guys. I now operate my own school and employ instructors,
One other thing be careful what you say to your students, I employed the instructor that sent me solo for 6 months

[Whirlybird]

...for starting what is proving to be an extremely interesting discussion!

Yes there are inequalities between the sexes, but harping on about it simply irritates and strengthens existing prejudice

Ah yes, the don't-talk-about-it-cos-the-guys-don't-like-it attitude. I know, talking about it makes some people feel uncomfortable, doesn't it? Now, I wonder why. :rolleyes: And I refuse to shut up just because people don't like it; these are important issues which need to be aired.

There are two issues here (at least!) There is whether one experiences prejudice, and how you react to it if you do. A woman working in a male orientated industry (can't remember if it was cars or engineering) said to me once that you have to be one of the lads, but be careful not to lose your femininity. My first reaction was to panic and wonder how I achieved that balancing act; followed almost instantly by the thought: "Why the hell should I?" Now, I suspect some women do this naturally, and probably therefore get accepted and liked. Others decide to do it, and there's nothing wrong with that. But some of us either can't or won't. Why should we? What's wrong with being ourselves? Why should we have to worry all the time about what the guys think? Yet...this is what many women do, all the time. But no-one should have to change the way they are, aside from a modicum of consideration for other people and society's conventions. And that applies equally to men in female orientated fields...I suspect male ballet dancers have a hard time until they become professional...just like women in aviation.

As for the male sense of humour, banter etc...ah, the if-you-can't-take-the-heat-get-out-of-the-kitchen argument. Yes, some of it is meant jokingly. Do people realise how often we've heard about the sky not being pink etc? Ignoring it or going along with it may be best. But that doesn't alter the fact that IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN!

And some of the prejudice is so nebulous even I don't recognise it, until...

There I was one day in a local flying club, with a male co-pilot, and someone comes in and starts chatting, and they ask him what he flies, and he names this huge variety of types and the fact he works with aeroplanes too, and they express general interest and ask him questions, and I'm sure everyone here recognises this as a typical flying school discussion.

But what happens to me? I get asked: "Are you learning to fly?" How come it's always "are you learning", not "do you fly" or "what do you fly". After all, it's a flying club, don't you assume people are pilots? Or at the PFA Rally a couple of days ago: "Do you fly or does your husband?" Now, I don't care any more, because I can launch into this lengthy monologue about being a CPL(H) and instructor, and also having a PPL(A) but being a bit rusty, and having tried to fly flexwing microlights too...by that point they're horribly embarrassed and being a kindhearted soul I let them off the hook. ;) But seriously, it shouldn't happen!!!!! And it does, so so so SO often.

I have a dream...

...that one day I will be able to walk into a flying club, any flying club, and just be another pilot, that being a woman will be no big deal. That people won't ask my passenger how much fuel he wants, or complement him on the landing. That they won't ask me if I fly because my husband or father did. That the BWPA will cease to exist as it'll be no longer needed...I always say its raison d'etre is because minorities need to stick together, and women in aviation are definitely a minority.

It may happen...my next door neighbour's daughter joined the ATC, went solo at the age of just 16, and wants to join the RAF, and neither she nor anyone else thinks it's a big deal. Eventually, being the ternal optimist, I'm sure it WILL happen. But at the rate things are changing...I suspect that it won't be in my lifetime. :(

[maflsc]

I agree Whirlybird
Remember guys the female student you put down today may be you boss tomorrow.
I am a operater today and employ instructors

[bluskis]

I thought flying was dominated by female aviators.

My first instructor was a very competent woman who became a ferry pilot. Also at the airfield, now run by a female commercial pilot, was another female instructor who became an airline pilot.

When I and some colleagues went to buy a Commanchee we found ourselves negotiating with the long distance record breaker Shiela Scott.

One of the more memorable conversations I have had was with Jean Batten who was most encouraging to a mere schoolboy.

My last rating revalidation was carried out by a female instructor.

I have flown with a few male pilots, and found them to be equally good, perhaps the male attitudes Whirly has encountered are from pilots who have not had the good fortune to meet the people I have.

[ratsarrse]

Is it possible that this is also a generational thing? Successive generations of women are taking progressively less sh*t and expect nothing less than equality. This also that succesive generations are more confident. Perhaps the older you are, the more likely you are to have a fragile confidence? A crass generalisation maybe.

I work in IT, which is one of those professions that is depressingly male-dominated. It is changing though, but I suspect the balance will always favour men. There just seem to be many more men that enjoy things that involve understanding how machines work than women. Women as a whole appear to favour things that involve dealing with people rather than machines. Well, that appears to be the case - I don't even know if it's true. A nature/nurture debate. The fact that girls tend to initially do better at maths in school than boys perhaps undermines the argument.

Speaking on an entirely personal, superficial and shallow level, I would like to see many more women in aviation of all types. It can only increase my chances of having a girlfriend who is a pilot/ATCO/whatever! Someone who shares the same passions rather than just tolerates you spending pots of cash.

[Pilotage]

I've met and flown with some excellent female pilots, including one or two of the more enthusiastic posters above.

But why have I met so few women aeronautical engineers (and even less technicians)? And don't anybody spout a line about women not being interested in Engineering, since I've met some excellent women Engineers in other fields.

I'm not making a point, just expressing mild bewilderment. Actually I'll make a point, some capable women aeronautical engineers might allow us to get rid fo some of the more mediocre males.

P

[bluskis]

Pilotage
Could you define 'engineer'

[flower]

I think the term Engineer is as wide ranging as that of Pilot.

There are the basic say washing machine repair type engineers (im not putting them down btw) and then of course you get those who have trained for many many years at higher education who are Chartered Engineers .

There are one or two chartered engineers on this forum so they may be better able to explain it than I.

I am sure the same arguments for women engineers can be placed for women pilots.

[Pilotage]

The definition is irrelevant to my point - however you define aeronautical engineering, it's an incredibly male dominated profession. I did use the term aeronautical, which either excludes washing machines, or I'm missing something very fundamental.

Mind you, despite the monotonous regularity with which they seem to go wrong (may I strongly recommend not buying a Baumatic oven or dishwasher) the people sent to repair them have always been of the male persuasion too.

P

[WestWind1950]

thank you all for replying and for the great debate. Sure, each sees the problem from their own perspective, depending on if your a man or a woman and depending on how much exposure to women pilots you have or have not had.

Years ago I was a secretary at a flight school. I gave out the information for people interested in flight training. Very rarily did women come in to inform themselves. Sometimes couples came in and it was ALWAYS, except in one case, the man that wanted to learn. I would always ask the women about her learning to fly, too, and they usually looked at me with big surprised eyes and you could tell, the idea had never crossed their minds!
In the case of that one exception... after she started flying, her boyfriend couldn't take it and they split up. She's still flying today, married her instrutor, and has done lots of flying in Africa.


http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[Gertrude the Wombat]

There are one or two chartered engineers on this forum so they may be better able to explain it than I. Um, I got my CEng by filling in the form and sending it off, to be honest.

I think these days they'd insist on an interview too; but it's still basically the rule that you can get a CEng by getting a recognised degree and working in an appropriate job for a few years?

[redsnail]

To be honest I usually keep well away from these sort of topics. Not because I want it to go away or avoid it, it's just I consider myself as a (professional) pilot. That is, gender irrelevant.

Have I been discriminated against? Probably. Will I worry about it? No. Sure, I've had more than one passenger comment about my gender. I usually turn it into a joke and make THEM feel uncomfortable. After all, it's the way I was born, it's time THEY learned something new. So, I let my work do the talking. 100% of the time it works. It's the same with colleagues. I can't help their prejudices or whatever. I can only do my job. If they don't like they can get stuffed.

In all honesty, our colleagues aren't the problem. Really they aren't. More often than not, they are our allies and supporters.

It will take time to the "general public's" opinion. I was in a restaurant this evening and the owner was saying all sorts of out dated sexist rubbish. I could have argued against him but what's the point? If people want to think that menstruation means that all women are nutters at certain times of the month then fine....

I have been bucking convention all my life. After a while it becomes second nature. The bottom line is that I am happy. I won't be any thing other than what I want to be. If others don't like it, then that is their problem, not mine.

[Evo]

Um, I got my CEng by filling in the form and sending it off, to be honest.

I think these days they'd insist on an interview too; but it's still basically the rule that you can get a CEng by getting a recognised degree and working in an appropriate job for a few years?


Mine was form filling and a rather informal interview, but it just seemed to be an exercise in making sure I had ticks in the right boxes. I've got another 'chartered' as well, which was pure form filling, so I guess CEng is harder than that :rolleyes:

[flower]

Reddo,
that is exactly how i feel to. I get on with my job I have support from friends and family and am also lucky to be doing what I want to do.
As said before perhaps its generational, im in my thirties and had very few dinosaurs peer out and ever say anything sexist. Perhaps the ladies who have come before have done the fighting for us.

[WestWind1950]

good morning everyone!

This thread is not supposed to be a battle of the sexes! I enjoy wearing mini-skirts (not while flying though.. could cause too many distractions ;) ) and having a big strong guy help me push the plane into the hangar (some guys can't do it alone, either, so no big thing). What I want to know is why more women don't get into flying? How many of you guys have encouraged your wife/girl friend to take up flying lessons or at least a pinch hitter course? Wouldn't it be better to have her enjoy it too then to sit at home and complain about you going to that darn air field again? Have you thought of having her at least get her radio license so she can help you out with the radio and naviation when you fly together?

When I hear those sexist jokes, I either try to ignore them or I have a "clever" reply on hand (sometimes making the guy that told it get embarassed heehee). Sure, we women also have some "good" men-jokes too :E that's not the main problem here I think.....

@ratsarrse
sure, you're right, it is also partly a generation problem. When I was young, all airline pilots were men, women were stewardesses... there were the usual agruements about the monthly thing and pregnancies, etc. Today there are many women in the airlines and these myths have been proven wrong. Unfortuntely too late for me, I would have enjoyed flying one of those big jets :{ A woman in an airline cockpit is becoming less and less an issue and is being thought about more neutral (about time).

If this thread helps some of you guys to start thinking differently about women flying, and I mean the attitudes like at the beginning of this thread, then it is serving its purpose. We are all flying buddies and have to stick together!


http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

Edited because of a "sexist" expression I used that I decided to delete .... :\

[Airbus Girl]

The figure of 3% of commercial pilots being female is a UK figure however I think the only country that has a higher figure is the USA. The USA is usually ahead of the UK in anything to do with flying. In the US it is not unusual to see women pilots. Airline pilots can even fly when pregnant, apart from the first 3 months (due to the radiation). They have maternity uniforms for female pilots. That hasn't hit here yet but I am sure it will, given a few years.

Most airlines have less than 3% female pilots, (and some still don't employ women) except for BA, which has around 4% I believe.

I think attitudes are changing but I think it also depends on who taught your instructor and what their background is.
I remember going to a flight training exhibition to find out about commercial flying and despite the fact that I asked all the questions, my boyfriend (not interested in flying) was given all the answers and was asked all the further questions.
I can still walk into the club where I did my commercial training and be ignored by those instructors who don't know me. I sometimes feel I could stand there all day and no one would talk to me.

When people ask what I do for a living and I say I fly for an airline, around 90% think I am cabin crew.
Every day I go to work I get at least one comment from a passenger about my gender. Usually it is one of surprise - you know- "oh well done, you got us here" or, after a good landing, "was that your landing?", from someone's wife, and when I say yes, a "see, I told you!".
However you should try flying in Cyprus. When I fly there with work and we are all female crew (quite often), they cannot believe it. They always ask why we haven't got a male with us, in charge!

And when we have had a male steward with us, he is sometimes the one who gets asked about loading and fuel decisions!!!!
I am often ignored down route, if the Captain is not at the aircraft I usually get a "oh, we'll wait for him to come back" and when I ask for the information then they do tell me, but reluctantly.

Back in the 2nd world war there were lots of female pilots. Many did some of the hardest jobs - delivering aircraft at night, with no navigation other than a compass, and no airfield lights (due to blackout).

When the war ended these women, with many hours of experience on a variety of aircraft, were refused jobs with airlines, even though the airlines couldn't find enough pilots.

Things are changing, but very slowly.

About 90% of the airline pilots I fly with are not prejudiced, or at least don't show it, so attitudes are changing.

One thing I really can't stand is when male pilots tell me that I only got my job because of "positive discrimination" for women applying for airline jobs. Rubbish. BA, being a large company, need to have a representative figure, around 3%, women, but I don't know of any other airline who has 3%. And I have never met a Chief Pilot who would employ a pilot who couldn't do the job, purely to meet "quotas".

[Northern Highflyer]

I wasn't going to post on this thread until I read westwinds last post which is excellent. I agree that it shouldn't be a battle of the sexes. Flying, as with any other walk of life should be open to all irrespective of gender.

A lot of the conflict between the sexes comes from peoples attitudes, from both genders. While it is true that some (not all) men are sexist and think women should be stuck at home, I think it is also true that some women (again not all) assume men are being sexist at the slightest comment.

In a post on jet blast I commented on how I prefer girls in skirts to jeans. A female poster then accused me of stereotyping. How am I stereotyping by expressing what I prefer, my own personal individual choice. Just because I prefer women in a skirt doesn't mean I see them as a lesser, weaker person or that she cannot use her brain.

To answer westwinds question, I would encourage anyone, male or female to learn to fly if they love it as much as I do. Like ratsarrse I would love to see more women in aviation. It would be great to have a gf to share my passion (flying passion that is) with.

I have the greatest respect for anyone with more knowledge than me and love to learn from others experiences, male or female. I met whirlybird at the last fly in and now have a respectful admiration for all she has achieved in aviation. If I am lucky enough get even half of the experience she has I will consider myself very fortunate.

It is attitudes from both sides that create the friction. Some men need to wake up and be more accepting of women as equals, and some women need to stop looking for put downs where maybe none exist.

regards to all.
:ok:

PS - post typed in again as my pc logged me out as i clicked send so this isn't as in depth as the first....grrrrr :{

[dublinpilot]

Ok, I didn't want to get involved in this thread, but some of the things said are starting to annoy me!

I don't doubt that some of the female pilots here have subject to discrimination, but looking at some of the things they have said, I can't help but to think that they are looking for discrimation where it does not exist!

I work as an accountant. It's a field which was traditionally male dominated, but now a little more than a 1/3 of accountants are female. Slightly more than half of all newly qualified accountants are female too. So needless to say I spent much of my working life around women. As in any office people will tell jokes, and from time to time we all are the but of them. Sometimes it will be a women, some you'll be the butt of them because of where you are from, sometimes because you are blond, sometimes because you are too tall, too small, too fat, etc etc or simply because you said something stupid. If someone in my office told a joke about an irish man, I wouldn't take any offence by it. If instead I worked in NYC, and someone told a joke about an irish man (and now I'm the only Irish man in the office) should I take offence? I think not. Now if it's directed at me personally, and intended to be personal, then that's different. But there is a difference between being the butt of an odd joke simply because you stand out of the crowd, and being discriminated against. Women are no different, I have been the butt of there jokes, because I was the only male around the office at that time, but I never took offence from it, even if I was embarrased at the time, because no offence was intended. Obviously if offence was intended, then that is completely different.

Ok enough about jokes.

As for asking if your Husband flies? I really don't think that is sexist at all! From my limited experience (and from reading getting to know one another treads here), it seems that most people have a close family member who flew before them, and their interest stemed from there. I've often asked pilots I've meet (male) if their fathers flew. Was that sexist? If you take offence from being asked if your husband is also a pilot, then you are concentrating too much on gender yourself.

Ok, and then there is the point about a male passenger being asked how much fuel they want. Let me tell you a little about myself. I qualified as an accountant when I was only 20. At age 21 I moved to a larger firm, and wound up leading the audit on some of their larger clients. Now most of my collagues in this firm were training, but had already completed a uni degree, and some masters, and a year or so of their professional accounting exams. Therefore they were a few years older than me. As the qualifed accountant, with more practical experience, I was heading up the audits. However often when we would arrive to an office of a client that I hadn't dealt with before, they would address my audit junior as they were older than I. When asked a question, my junior would simply say something like, "Well I don't know. You better ask the boss" and look over at me. They would be all embarrased, and apologise. I never took any offence, as it was an innocent mistake. It was a reasonable assumption, given my age, that I was not qualified, and therefore that my collegue was leading the audit. So be it. The person made a reasonable assumption based on their limited knowledge, which turned out to be wrong, and corrected their behavour when the realsised they were wrong.

Now if a man and a women walk up to a fuel desk I think it's a reasonable assumption to think that the male is the pilot, and the female the passenger. Why? Well becuase by the stats listed above only 6% of ppl's are female. 1 in 20 ppl's are female. That makes the assumption reasonable, in the absence of any other information. Of course once made aware that the male is the passenger, if the attendent continues to address him, then that is wrong, but the inital assumption is justified, in my view, as it's based on the most likely senario.

As for commenting on women flying an airliner? Why shouldn't someone notice that it's unusual? If only 3% fly them, that's only 1 in evey 33! With a crew of two, that means you will only see one in every 16 flights. Most people would take a number of years to take 16 flights! Of course it's unusual to them. It's wrong to put them down for their gender, but not to notice it! I'm sure any male secretary get's asked from time to time what it's like to do a job, that in the main is female dominated. It's not ment to be offencive. If I had a male friend who was a secretary, then sure I'd ask him what it was like. I wouldn't mean any harm by it, and I doubt any would be taken. It's just simply unusual.

And being told that you must be brave? I've often been told that I must be brave to fly one of those little airplane! By both male and female collegues. It never even occured to me that this could be condesending. I know it was always ment to be a statement of admiration, and I've allways been flattered by it.

What Westwind said about not getting a job, simply because she was a woman, is wrong. I don't agreed with that at all.

I won't bother telling you about the female instructors that I had, as I don't think it's relevant. Suffice to say, that I had good instructors and bad instructors. Their gender was irrelevant.

I have nothing against women flying. In fact I would love to see more fly. It does bother me that unless I bring a female passenger with me, then I can't enjoy my hobby with anyone other than other blokes. So I would like to see more women fly.

I do think it's a generational thing, and that as time goes on, less notice will be taken.

But I think any woman who see herself as a female pilot who has been mistreated is wrong. Her views are as out of date as those who she complains about. She is a PILOT who has been mistreated, and a paying customer who has been mistreated, and should complain about it accordingly. I have been mistreated on occasion when flying, and I've complained about it. I've never seen the need to tell why I though the other person saw reason to mistreat me. They had no justifiable reason, and as a paying customer and pilot I complained. I didn't complain as a man. I don't see myself as a male pilot. You should look on yourself as a pilot and paying customer, and if you are badly treated then complain about that. Not that you are are female pilot who has been mistreated. The female part is irrelevent!

/end rant!:D

[Genghis the Engineer]

How on earth did you chaps (chappesses? - does it matter?) get such an easy ride out of CEng - mine involved well over a week of preparation, a lengthy interview and presentation at the RAeS and submission of 7 years worth of professional logbook, publication records, etc. After that the IMechE gave me nearly as hard a ride as an existing CEng as the RAeS had to gain the qualification in the first place.



About 10 years ago I was involved in the certification of the Shorts Tincano (sorry anybody who has flown one, we knew it was dreadful then but had little choice but to do the best we could with a poor aeroplane). We knew very well that the aircraft would be flown by male and female student pilots but absolutely nobody could get us cockpit ergonomic data for female aircrew - so with little choice the aircraft was designed around a male body and inevitably a lot of very capable young women are prevented from joining the RAF as pilots as a consequence. We wouldn't have this problem now, there is some superb data available from NASA but for a long time yet many women will find themselves descriminated against in many cockpits - particularly military ones. Unfair, but there you go.

G

[Evo]

I'm the fake kind of engineer, Genghis - software :O. For me it's a necessity, especially with European clients who expect (and often require) a CEng to be involved, but I'm surprised that 'real' engineers aren't more p*ss*d off about it. The BCS were giving them away at one point. My other one is in Physics (CPhys) which is a pointless exercise in form-filling.

(sorry for wandering off-topic btw :) )

[bluskis]

Again off topic

My CEng also involved law and management exams, as the Eng degree in those days did not include such subjects.

Not really off topic I suppose, some female pilots get upset at perceived attitudes towards them, and I get upset when I am slotted in with washing machine repairers.

Hence my question thrust into the topic.

[Pilotage]

I was being deliberately vague because it's not relevant, and I really didn't want to get sidetracked into the sort of engineer .v. technician debate that Genghis has suffered from on occasion.

P

[mad_jock]

Gengis its all who you know not what you know.

Bill Banks managed to get most of the lads through at work, with less than a mornings work on it. I decided I wasn't going to stay in Engineering and as I had't payed my money for 2 years went to the pub instead.

After that Banks and Spence preceded to screw the qualification stuff up for ImechE so that none of the breeze block Uni's could get students through with acredited degrees.


MJ

[Base Line]

I started to learn to fly back in April of this year after my boyfriend gave me a flying lesson for my birthday. He flies business jets and thought that I might enjoy flying. In addition, he thought at least I would then have a clue what he and his friends were talking about! Since starting lessons, I have become completely hooked and now have the obligatory RT tape in the car! If I hadn't met my boyfriend I doubt that I would have started flying simply because I had never thought of it, didn't know any one who did it or knew how accessible it was. I've always loved flying so its great to be able to indulge myself like this.

:D

[Whirlybird]

dublinpilot,

Much of what you're saying is true, at least in part. But it doesn't alter the fact that prejudice does exist. And what you've ignored is the fact that people can start to over-react and see prejudice in jokes and similar BECAUSE they have experienced it for real. People pick up on others' attitudes. This is something that's difficult to explain, but I'll try...

When I started flying I didn't know it was male orientated, and didn't expect to be treated any differently because I was female. And I wasn't, not that obviously. But it was all sorts of subtle things...the guys were all told about Career Development Loans, and when I asked about one, I was told: "That's only for people who are getting commercial licences". I actually assumed that the amazement when I said I was considering going commercial was due to my age, as I was over 40 (Oh God, I NEVER admitted that on PPRuNe before!!!!!!!), but then discovered that loads of 40-something men were considering CPL(H)s, and no-one thought it at all odd. It's not the amazement I'm objecting to, it's the fact that I wasn't given advice I might have wanted. And then..my instructor assumed I wouldn't be strong enough to check the rotor blades (you have to push one up; it's a tiny bit physical); but it's important and I insisted on doing it. I insisted on refuelling too, not to prove anything, but I might have been on my own one day and I needed to know how to. In all sorts of ways I wasn't quite taken seriously...these are just the ways it manifested. It was sort of assumed I'd get my licence and kind of tootle around the sky gently and locally with one or two friends to hold my hand, never do any more. When I said I was thinking of becoming an instructor, people were gobsmacked. And it was also assumed that someone else must be funding it...a woman couldn't have that kind of money, could she? I wasn't confident; I would have loved someone to have said: "Great, go for it!" No-one ever did; it was almost like I'd broken the unwritten rules.

Then there was the Dawn to Dusk flying competition, which a female friend and I won in 2000. Someone asked the judges if they only gave us the prize because we were women!!!!! Actually, the judge was more annoyed than we were.

I take your point about it being unusual for women to fly, so naturally one assumes their male passengers are pilots. But only up to a point. I have at times been actively ignored even after it was known. And I'd have to be a bloody saint not to get annoyed when such things happen again and again and again and again. To be honest, I rarely fly with men now...since I'm not a bloody saint.

I find it hard to think of other examples because, like I said, it's an attitude thing. I might even think you were right, if it wasn't for a few weeks spent flying in the US. Women pilots are in a minority there, but they aren't treated any differently. I flew with a male passenger to Santa Barbara, and when we went in to book in etc, they asked who was the pilot. If the Americans can do it, why not here? The BWPA here gets accused of being a women's social group (and believe me, it's never said in anything other than a derogatory fashion); the WhirlyGirls organisation in the US is very much respected. I could go on, if I could remember examples after a long day.

I can't prove it, but I'm not over-reacting, and neither are most of the others. I didn't expect discrimination, having rarely run into it in other walks of life, and it caught me totally unawares in aviation.

Like Redsnail and Flower, it doesn't worry me that much now. Why should it. Like them, I have the qualifications I need, and they speak for themselves. I can get on with what I want to do, and other people's prejudice is their problem. But you see, I want to help other women in aviation, and I'd like to see more of them. And while things are as they are, it's very difficult for most women. Teachers know that kids don't do well at school if they aren't expected to. It's the same for new pilots. If not much is expected of you, you probably won't think you can do much. If you're told the sky's the limit (sorry for horrible pun), then it is. You may not see that, I may not have explained it very well, but with a few exceptions, that's the case.

And since a problem can't be solved if it's ignored, that's why I'm spending half my evening after a long day trying to communicate the situation as I see it, on this thread.

[cessnababe]

Another reluctant contributor. When I started to fly it was because a male friend set up the lesson for me - I did not know how to go about it. Yet in some respects I was technically minded and adventurous in my outside work activities: I rode and mended my own bicycle (Still do), had been on an Outward Bound course, was a keen skier etc. I simply had no contact with aviation and did not know how to start. I think that may be why more women do not fly- unless their friends do they will not think of it.

I had actually wanted to fly from the age of 8 but it seemed a pipedream and at University in the 70s girls could not join the Air Squadron. Like some of the other contributors I experienced difficulties with certain types of arrogant males but I had also experienced this in the City during my professional training. I had to wait until I was 31 to afford flying lessons but soon after gaining my PPL I started working for a BCPL, then AFI Rating etc.

I work as an Instructor/ Examiner but I think that one of the things that has changed is that having gained qualifications as an FIC/FIE I now find a lot more respect from other pilots, male or female. Before I reached this position, even if I was dressed in the usual white airline shirt and dark trousers, I would experience Airport Managers, Refuellers asking my male student (dressed in jeans etc) how much fuel they required etc. I think it is simply lack of imagination and ignorance on the part of many people and I no longer take offence.

So really what we should be asking is not only: how to get more women in to flying but also how to get more people into flying?This is an issue that needs addressing urgently as the number of PPL issues last year was down by 25% on the previous year. Is it the case that people find their computer more fascinating than an aeroplane??

My only gripe with this thread is the extraordinary number of misspellings- I do not think we do the industry a service if we are so careless of basics - failing to pay attention to spelling when you are on the ground safe by a computer does not bode well for your cockpit checks and safety drills!!

[maggioneato]

I understand from the CAA statistics that I am one of ten private pilots of my age in the UK. I don't care if my non flying passenger is asked how much fuel he wants, more often than not I fuel where you help yourself, and no one comes running out to help the old dear climb up on the Cessna wings. I'm not bothered if people think I was waiting for a trial lesson instead of getting ready to go flying myself. I fly for the pleasure it gives me, so don't have any problem with male pilots at all. I don't see why gender has to come in to it, we all have to do the same training, and we all enjoy a very special hobby. :p

[WestWind1950]

Thanks Northern Highflyer for the compliment! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/remybussi.gif

I'm amazed at the feedback, especially how many had not intended to post on this "sensitive" subject and did anyway! Thanks to all of you!

The experiences that some women pilot went through shows how important it is that this subject gets brought up every now and again. Of course the same, or similar, kind of prejudice is found in other areas... think about male nurses in hospitals, etc. ... but that doesn't mean that it should be ignored or down-played.

I think the idea of giving the wife or girl friend a free instrution flight as a gift is great! :ok:

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[Evo]

I think the idea of giving the wife or girl friend a free instrution flight as a gift is great!


I offered to pay for Mrs. Evo to do a PPL - she said no... :rolleyes:

She doesn't mind me going flying, she'll put up with me talking about flying, reading about flying and PPRuNeing, she'll even go flying with me sometimes, but she just isn't interested in doing it herself. :confused:

[dublinpilot]

hi Whirly,

In many ways I agree with you, and I'm sure in the core issue we agree completely.

I have no doubt whatsoever that many female pilots do suffer discrimination, and that their gender is the cause of that.

However I don't think that anyone should look on it as "their gender" being the problem. If you say someone didn't give you the career information because you were a woman, it's almost like saying that they thought they had a justifiable reason for not giveing you the info, and you just happen to disagree. That's not the case at all. Your gender was irrelevant. What was wrong was their ingorant attitude, not you.

If they had failed to give the same info to a male collegue, then he too would have felt agreeved, and justifiably so. His complaint would be no less vaild than yours, and therefore your gender should be and is irrelevant. Your complaint is just as vaild if you never mention your gender. To highlight your gender in making the complaint adds nothing to the complaint. I guess that's one of the points I'm trying to make.

The second was that I think sometimes girls can feel that something that was wrong happened just because they were female, when that may not have been the reason at all. On the "I've had enough!" thread David's complaint was perfectly valid. He never thought his gender was the reason for the problem, just an unreasonable instructor. Had David been a Darlene she might have though her gender was the reason, when it was actually nothing to do with her. It was simply a crap instructor!

As can see from that thread, I've had my own problems with a particular instuctor. I'd make a pretty good guess at why that instructor felt the need to put me down, but it had no relevance to my flying or the problem...his attitude. Therfore I never told it to him, or on David's thread. It added nothing to my complaint. My complaint was just as vaild without explaining why I though he saw the need to put me down.

Their reasons are irrelevant. The simple fact is they are wrong, not you, so don't lend any credence to their reasons by explaining them. You should make your valid complaints, but leave your gender out, it add's nothing to your argument; your complaint is just as vaild with out it.

:ok:

dp

ps. Cessnababe-yes, I've often wished PPruNe would have a spell checker in the post section :rolleyes: I can't spell to save my life :O

Still thankfully I dont' need to be able to spell to read a checklist or carry out a saftey drill ;)

[WestWind1950]

@Evo
but you tried! Of course, not everyone is interested in flying... I have a son and a daughter, both started glider flying, both quit before their first solo....
The point we're (I'm) trying to make is that too often the idea that the woman could take lessons just doesn't occurs.

@Dublinpilot,
of course you are right, too. A woman does tend to think of such treatment as a gender thing more often then not. And why? because it too often is or was in the past! We women, too, must change our thinking as well. We don't expect only the men to change... that would be unfair ;)



http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[BRL]

dublinpilot ps. Cessnababe-yes, I've often wished PPruNe would have a spell checker in the post section I can't spell to save my life

Still thankfully I dont' need to be able to spell to read a checklist or carry out a saftey drill

Have a look here........
FREE SPELL CHECKER FOR WINDOWS. (http://www.iespell.com/)

Simply right-click when you are done doing your post, do the check, then post....!! :)

[HelenD]

Well I never found any discrimination because of my gender during my training though I did feel held back because of my disability by one school. Now I have my licence I have found no problems at all so far. My husband supported my decision to fly though my mum diddnt, not surprising really as she hardly let me do anything when I was growing up.

[Whirlybird]

dublinpilot,

When I started flying I didn't expect to be treated any differently because I was a woman. The fact that in many cases I obviously was came as a complete and utter shock. Yes, men can be treated badly too. Yes, there are other reasons for treating people badly, and for the way any of us are treated. Nevertheless, in many instances I KNOW for certain, and in many more it APPEARS, that my gender was the reason. A number of other women I know have found the same thing. Now I have different ways I can react or respond to that, of course. I choose to highlight it; I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed. That may or may not be a good idea. But that's a different issue.

Anyway, you might all be interested in a conversation that occurred today. I arrived at the airfield to give a trial lesson, and met a young women who was waiting for her other half who was out flying. The conversation went like this:

Young woman: He's done 24 hours. I always come and wait for him.
Me: So why don't you learn yourself?
Young woman: Well, I'm waiting for him to get his licence, then I can fly with him.
Me: No, you can be a passenger. That's not the same thing.
Young Woman: I'm scared of heights
Me: So am I, and I'm an instructor
Young Woman: I have no coordination
Me: You're talking to someone who as a kid got left out of all the team games because she could never hit the ball. If you can drive a car you can fly a helicopter.

A bit more similar dialogue, and I left her wondering how her partner would react when she told him she wanted to get a PPL(H) herself. Oh dear, what have I been responsible for? :eek:

[flyingfemme]

We need to corrupt a few more ladies.....

[Flyin'Dutch']

Dear Laydiez,

How many of you have taken 'mates' up for a whizz in yer flying machines? Improve the world and start with yourself.

I always tire a bit when I see yet another 'aren't we hard done to as females in this world dominated by male chauvinistic pigs' thread.

To learn to fly takes: self determination, assertiveness, commitment and perseverance to name a few attributes.

You would surely not want to proclaim that such qualities are less prevalent among women?

I would have thought that any person who comes across belittling, denigrating characters in life, be it in aviation or the big bad world, can deal with these in a more proactive manner than by having a moan and sulk.

After all you would not want to promulgate any stereotypes would you?

FD

[Whirlybird]

Flyin'Dutch,

In case you hadn't noticed, this thread was started by a female professional pilot, and it has been contributed to by several others. So I think it goes without saying that we have dealt with these things in a pro-active manner. But some of us think these things should be discussed too, with a view to change and improvement, perhaps. We find that useful, helpful, and worthy of a PPRuNe discussion. If you don't....well, I hadn't noticed anyone holding a gun to your head to force you to read this thread. The title is self-explanatory...and you don't HAVE to click on it.

[flyingfemme]

Take other women flying......

My mother-in-law (disabled, walks with crutches) will go to great lengths to go flying - she even folded herself into a 150 when that was all I had available!

My own mother even came hours building in Florida with me. Flying from mall to mall, slowly filling the rear of the Cherokee with shopping.

A neighbour, who had never been in a small aircraft, commented how light the controls were - she had seen the movies where a big, strong, male pilot was fighting, two-handed with the yoke!

My hairdresser is next.....

[Whirlybird]

Oh, and just for the record, I've taken loads of women flying...really didn't think that bit was worth replying to. One or two went ever so quiet on the ground; seemed happy enough in the air, and said it was due to the almost completely male orientated atmosphere and feeling like they didn't belong there. :(

Interesting one, that. Soon after I got my PPL(A) I used to fly regularly with another newish PPL. One day he wanted to fly somewhere, while I was booked for a trial aerobatics flight at Sywell organised by the BWPA. I said I'd be happy to fly there with him, if he'd wait for the aerobatics and we could then fly back. He agreed, but kept moaning that he'd "feel out of place among all those women". People at the flying club who overheard were sympathetic to his predicament. The fact that I'd spent months at flying clubs and airports among predominantly men without mentioning it seemed to have escaped their notice.

Just a point of interest, I thought.

[Rob_L]

As the subject was pilots, the engineering equivalent is an aircraft maintenance engineer. In 31 years in the industry I have only worked with one female licensed engineer and two mechanics both ex- navy. I feel that the industry is the poorer for it. These days the work is highly technical and can be very well paid. Maybe endless shift work and the long drag to obtain the licence is offputting.

[Keef]

I earned the wrath of a small minority of folks by appointing a woman as our new Rector. But she was way above the male candidates in all the skills and abilities I and my colleague thought important for the job.

So yesterday she was installed into the position, and today took her first services. Her skills showed (in dramatic form) and now the objectors are nowhere to be seen.

Sadly, the woman needs to be better than the man at these traditional male roles. I love it when they are!

And of course, she wants me to take her flying to survey the area from above. Beware of orbiting Keef this week!

[Miserlou]

I apologize if I missed anything in skimming through the thread.

Why can't people just accept that the reason that there aren't more women flying is because there aren't more women who WANT to fly!!!

I'll not go into many details but I know a few great female pilots. I also know of some who got here by being female.

I don't know ANY male pilots who got there because they were male.

I also know one who, "Would have given up rather than go through what you went through!" and one or two others who wouldn't dream of doing it again (CPL) if they could have their time again!"

Men are GENERALLY more willing to make the sacrifices required for success!

If you really want to get wound up about this then I would also point out that the male brain is better adapted technically for the task at hand!

[pipergirl]

hi there

I have been flying for a couple of years and i haven't really had any problems, except when i started my PPL.

i went to do my PPL in the States and i met a girl at the school who advised me not to go with the particular instructor i had been assigned.
She was sudying for her PPL and had this guy and he had not signed her off for her first solo and she had approx. 30 hours??!!!!!!! The CFI intervened and she was completely competent in what she was doing, it boiled down to the fact this guy did not like this student.
She switched instructors and was quite happy.
I arrived at the school and she advised me to change instructors.
She said this guy was a bit of a chauvinist(can't spell)....I didn't listen to her advice and decided to stick to this instructor.
I thought that it was simply a falling out and I didn't know enough about the situation. I didn't think attitudes like that really existed.

To cut a long story short- he was rude, arrogant, barely helped me and it all came to a head when he continuously screamed at me because i couldn't quite get my landings right(on a PA28)...
He had another student at the time and went out of his way to help this student and hardly helped me...

I dumped him and changed instructors and everything was grand after that.

I work in an airline and i know that attitudes like that are in the extreme minority and i'm lucky that i have that knowledge, otherwise if i had another non-aviation related job, i could have been given the mis-perception that this guy was in the majority.

i have had positive flying ever since and this guy definitely had a chip on his shoulder with women....but the one point i would like to make...
If an instructor(or anyone else for that matter) is being really arrogant to you, he could be like that with EVERYONE, and don't immediately think as a woman, he is particularly zoning in on you. There's a difference between people being offensive because they are an asshole and being
offensive because they are chauvinist.
A hard distinction to make maybe, but something to bear in mind.

good luck
pg
:D

[Whirlybird]

Miserlou,

You're entitled to your opinions...stated with no evidence whatsoever to back them up.

And I'm entitled to think they're a bunch of cr@p!

It's just that I like logical discussions you see..must be a female thing I guess. ;)

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Whirly et al.,

No guns to be seen here, but thought that I'd give my two pennies worth!

Nowt wrong with being a bit reflective.

Seems that if nothing else, it has helped to get some more positive feedback posts on here. Apparently there are folks out there who can deal with male-chauvinistic pigs in a proactive manner.

Just shows it can be done!

FD

[Andrew Sinclair]

Very late in the discussion I know but there are SARTOR requirements for Chatered Engineer in the IEE are here (http://www.iee.org/Membership/CEng/SARTOR3.cfm)

Perhaps it varies across disciplines but I am very much aligned with Ghengis's view. Not sure about the software world and can't comment on Gertrudes experiences or area but box filling it isn't, not in the IEE at least.

[Genghis the Engineer]

And for the RAeS here (http://www.raes.org.uk/raes/First/membership/grading.asp) which unsurprisingly reads much the same.

G

[CSX001]

I am curious to know what some of the more vociferous leading ladies in this thread think about the "PINK headsets" saga forging forth in a forum near you.

Whilst it is obviously wonderful to see another lady entering into the world of flying, and clearly having so much fun, what kind of stereotypical view of women do you think her postings re-enforce? I won't post quotes because I think that would be unnecessarily unkind and because my comments are not motivated by the lady as an individual. I think that any reader of that thread will rapidly understand what I am getting at.

The message I take home from it is that in life there are undoubtedly men who are MCPs, and there are undoubtedly helpless "girlies" whose personalities have developed around exploiting that trait for whatever end.

Mostly though, there are just "people", getting on with the job, whatever it might be, and ignoring whether the person sitting to their left, or right, is male or female.

Charlie.

[Whirlybird]

CSX001,

pink_aviator appears to be happy in her own skin and being as she wants to be. So good luck to her! She and I are probably about as different as it's possible to get apart from a love of flying, but so what? Sadly, I suspect her postings do reinforce a stereotypical view of women. But I don't think she, or anyone else, should change the way they are because of what other people think.

If a man does something, or is a particular way, people think it's just him. If it's a woman, they deduce that all women, ie half the human race, are the same way. Hmmm...and I thought men were supposed to be logical.

Pink one, I for one like your thread!

[CSX001]

I think that when a woman is ill-treated by a MCP, she may think badly of all men for a while, but most are able to see beyond the individual.

When I see "girly girls" playing up their vulnerabilities and writing like 7 year olds, it is easy to see why men might be tempted to think that all women are like that. But I trust that most men can see beyond the individual too.

There are only a few on both sides who seem to want to extrapolate a bad experience with one member of the opposite sex, into a general comment about the entire sex. This of course reflects more on them and their ability to relate to the opposite sex, than it does about the opposite sex in general.


Hmmm...and I thought men were supposed to be logical.

Hmmm.... and I thought all women were good cooks ;)

Charlie

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hmmm.... and I thought all women were good cooks


Don't tell Mrs Genghis that. Many years ago she and I came to the firm understanding that my sole involvement in the garden is heavy lifting and she doesn't try to cook anything more complicated than beans on toast.

Mind you, I've yet to persuade her that it's physically possible for women to change a broken vacuum cleaner belt. (We are however united on the fact that using it is something we pay somebody else to do, as is ironing.)

G

[AerBabe]

As an unusually young person in aviation, and female too (could you tell by the name?), I've experienced a very odd mix of attitudes towards my flying. My instructor was excellent, and the more I talk to people, the more I realise how unusual he was. He would quite happily tell people that he thought women generally made better pilots, as they didn't have testosterone problems. He instructed military students, and loved teasing them about his two 'girlie' PPL students back in Coventry. However, he never let his personal opinions affect his instructing, and didn't tell his students how they compared in relation to each other. After all, learning to fly isn't about being better than the others at it, it's about being good enough to pass.
The only negative attitude I've had from my flying group was from an old time member, who believes everyone in the club house should wear a collar and tie, and that women shouldn't be allowed. He didn't talk to me, or even acknowledge my presence in the clubhouse for the first year.
I've experienced the refueling issue too. Every time I've flown with a man, they get asked how much fuel they want. Even when the refueler has seen us get out of the aeroplane. Even when my passenger has been standing to one side, looking in the opposite direction, and I've been standing by the pump, trying to get attention.

However ...
... I also once made the same mistake myself. I can't remember what happened, but I assumed the man was the pilot, and the woman was the passenger. Needless to say, I was very embarassed, and haven't done it again.

[Whirlybird]

Many years ago she and I came to the firm understanding that my sole involvement in the garden was heavy lifting

That reminds me of an incident totally unrelated to aviation, but perhaps related to female stereotypes etc. Many years ago, before I was Whirly, and when I actually was the sweet young thing I still sometimes pretend to be (though not on this thread!;) ) I was quite seriously into body building. By the time I realised I'd never develop enough in the way of obvious muscles to compete (wrong genetic makeup or something), I was quite incredibly strong for someone who looked like a 5' 2" typical girlie. Anyway, one day at the gym I annoyed a male weight training instructor by ignoring his advice to use lighter weights, and he decided to take me down a peg or two by asking him to "spot" for him - that means being ready to take a barbell from him when he's had enough, for the uninitiated. When I ended up calmly and fairly effortlessly holding his 40kg barbell at arms length and asking him if he wanted to do any more, he glared at me in fury, and never talked to me again!

So when I see comments about women shouldn't be allowed to do so and so and this and that because they're not strong enough...some of us are, or can be with training, so don't generalise until you know.

These days, however, the most physical thing I do is drag an R22 out of the hangar occasionally, and if you ask me to to lift something heavy I'll probably drop it. :( :( :(

Mostly irrelevant I know, but hey, I'm having a boring day at work. :)

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Whirly,

You see it can be done.

Your post made me smile! So much nicer to read than a whine and a moan!

FD

[flyin' shark]

S’funny, but when I decided to take flying lessons it never even occurred to me that being a girl would make things any different. It didn’t. Similarly I was hugely surprised when I joined the legal profession and found lots of females whingeing about discrimination. Being a girl doesn’t make any difference to either of them. The only difference comes when you get to an age where you might want rugrats, and then you have to think about childcare and all that grown up stuff (fortunately I’m not there yet). In any event, childcare is a different issue applicable to both men and women – the only bit the guys can’t do is be pregnant and give birth.

Oh, and the other difference is the fact that I am physically unable to budge the hangar doors, much to the amusement of the blokes. Even that, however, is more to do with the fact that I’m a weed who hates exercise, not that I’m a girl.

So in short, and for what it’s worth, I reckon that these days, what makes a difference, whether in aviation or anything else, is your own attitude – if you see being female as an issue, then it becomes an issue.

But hey, that’s just my opinion.

[CSX001]

Quite right Flyin'Dutch'!

It is the rather strident sound of women complaining that can sometimes detract from the message.

Very much the same as a drunk man phoning you up to tell you he "really lurvs you" late at night. The way the message is delivered can detract from the contents ;)

Charlie

[Whirlybird]

I reserve the right to whine and moan if I feel like it!!!! And after the 100th ignorant or sexist remark, despite having never expected being a woman to make any difference when I started flying, I'll feel like it!!!!!!!!! I'm human, not a saint. And if people don't like it, it's bloody tough. I've been living long enough to cope with not being liked, and with me, what you see is what you get. And if it reflects badly on other women...well, if you extrapolate from just me to half the human race...

[CSX001]

Go for it girl. When the logic runs dry, have a strop! :cool:

Charlie.

[Miserlou]

Whirlybird.

The fact backing my statements up, evidence if you will, is that there aren't more women flying than there are.

The anecdotal evidence is just my observation. (Names could but will not be supplied.)

The final part (male/female brain) is scientific fact.

Whether or not you agree or disagree does not stop it being true!

Where's YOUR logical reply?

[flower]

Men & Women are born equal but different.

Arguments such as those presented by miserlou belong in the Ark.

Whirlybird has had some unfortunate experiences which by and large seem not to be experienced by the vast majority of us, which has to be a very positive point.

We are each of us at some time in our lives guilty of sexism , racism etc even if we have no intention to do so.

How do we get more women to fly , be positive , show how much fun it can be from a hobby point of view , show how much can be acheived if you wish to make it your career.

We will see less and less of this being an issue as years go on, as I have said before I do not find the world of aviation sexist at all. The ladies coming into now having just left university will probably never experience the problems that Whirlybird has.

Those who wish to make divisions between men and women have no place in our society today.

Men and Women gain from each other we profit from our differences.

[CSX001]

There is a certain truth to the old saying that "you make your own luck". I am sure that this is also true in relationships with the opposite sex.

Those who find these difficult and expect to find prejudice will find it. Those that don't will have no trouble spotting the rotten apple amongst their male colleagues, and will see that he has a problem, rather than them.

Whining about general discrimination is as outdated as the discrimination that undoubtedly existed in bygone times.

I am very happy with my aviation career, and I don't think that my sex has held me back one iota. It hasn't stopped me encountering some nasty people, and some born victims, of both sexes along the way.

Charlie.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Flyin' Shark:

Good to read about your positive attitude and ensuing experiences!

Flower

Men & Women are born equal but different
Love it when you hit the nail on the head like that. Too true!!

Whirly

You said:

Mostly irrelevant I know, but hey, I'm having a boring day at work.
Must have been a bad day at that too! To throw your toys out of the pram like this:

I reserve the right to whine and moan if I feel like it!!!!
Of course you may but on the whole those who stamp their feet are taken a tad less serious.

Chill out...........................

FD

[WestWind1950]

heh! who's complaining? we're just stating facts as we've experienced them.....

@Miserlou
(that's a Greek dance, isn't it?)... I can't believe some of oyur statements....

The final part (male/female brain) is scientific fact

Of course men and women are different, both physically and mentally, but that doesn't make either one less able!! of course there will always be "girlie" jobs and "boy toys"... not all men want to fly just as not all women want to fly... our point is, that women often don't even get the idea that they can learn to fly!! and then when they try, they ofen have to try harder then the guys! If in ATPL training (or whatever) they do a mistake, then it's "see! told ya a girl couldn't do it"... have a guy do the same mistake, no one notices or cares...

I enjoy being a "girl" and enjoy "girlie" stuff... but I also appreciate being treated like an equal...

@CSX001
in my first posting I mentioned the Pink_Aviator thread... I think it's fantastic!! She's being herself and doing what she wants to do no matter what the odds!!

keep it up Pinkster http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/grinser/grinning-smiley-022.gif


http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[Whirlybird]

miserlou,
This whole thread has presented all the other possible reasons why there aren't more women flying. I suggest you read rather than skim it. If you explain your ideas on male/female brains, I'll reply logically. I certainly haven't heard of any evidence of what you're referring to, and my degree was in psychology/physiology.

Flyin'Dutch,
You just don't get it, do you? I am not remotely concerned with what you or others think of me. I am well aware that women who behave nicely, and don't complain, and never mention a word about anything which might annoy anyone, especially MEN, are liked and rewarded. I don't choose to do that. I would have thought that was obvious. I'm not asking you to like me, take me seriously, or agree with me. However, I would appreciate it if you didn't decide that I represent half the human race...since most of the people who know me think I'm a one-off and they broke the mould after me. ;)

[Miserlou]

Yawn!

Flower.
I haven't presented any argument. All I did was make an actually rather neutral comment. Rather along the lines of 'we are who we are' this is the way the world is.

This one again. I'll not go into it in too much detail but for further reference do a thread search for the 'male v. female pilots' argument.

Westwind.

Now the brain is formed of two hemispheres. Various physical and intellectual functions are spread throughout the whole.

In a male brain the two sides don't communicate (with each other) as well as a female brain does.

The result is that the male brain becomes better at mathematics and technical subjects and is slower in developing language.

That is to say the female brain IS less able (in this regard) and, yes, a woman may have to try harder to reach the same level.

If it makes you feel better, 90% of autistic children are boys. Also women recover more fully and more quickly from brain injury and strokes for exactly the reasons stated above- the other side compensates.

The only argument I would like to put forward is one for accepting who and what we are.

CSX said, " those who expect prejudice will find it."

I think there may be a few of them present here.

[CSX001]

Miserlou

A beer with you one evening would be an entertaining experience I'm sure :) And I'm not just saying that because you quoted me :cool:

Charlie.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Whirly,

Am not sure what I have done to deserve your agressive stance, nor can I discern in any of my posts that I thought you are representative for woman-hood in general.

If you make the effort to read back the posts you will see that the contrary is true!

May be I am not very good at expressing myself but the only thing which I am trying to get across is that people of minority groups can make more headway by being proactive and assertive rather than by whining and moaning!

Can of course be comfortable to have a sulk together when you encounter a headwind, but on the whole it seems that navel-gazing is not the way forward.

You wrote:

I am not remotely concerned with what you or others think of me
Would be foolish of me to like/dislike people on the mere assessment of their postings on this forum, would you not agree?

After all don't forget:

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
As I suggested before:
Chill out.....................

FD

PS: Thought that:

.............especially MEN,...........
was a rather sexist remark, the sort one could expect only from F/MCPs

[Whirlybird]

flower,

Actually my experiences are very mild compared to some I've heard of:

Two women I know landed in Corsica. They had a really hard time trying to get fuel, as the pilot had to be present, and no-one would believe that either of them was the pilot...I kid you not!

A female CFI and flying school owner had a man insist that he had to get information about learning to fly from someone other than her.

A woman I know who regularly flies with her husband says that when the landings are good people assume they're his, and when they're not so great they assume they're hers.

It seems to happen A LOT!!!!


Flyin'Dutch

What you are picking up on is frustration rather than aggession... frustration that I seem unable to explain my point of view to you. I'll have one last try.

Firstly, the comment about not taking me as representative of half the human race was not aimed specifically at anything you said, so much as an attitude in your first post, suggesting you lumped all "laydies" together.



People of minority groups can make more headway by being proactive and assertive rather than by whining or moaning

No doubt. That is what I meant by "behaving nicely". But I am not trying to make headway. Westy started a thread asking about women's experiences, and I've been merely giving mine. I have made a conscious decision not to behave in any particular way because it might influence others, but rather, to simply do as I choose and to hell with the consequences. I have now said that several times in several different ways. is it so hard to understand and accept?

Having said that, you've accused me, and several others, of "whining and moaning". Actually, I re-read this thread, and virtually no-one has been. Experiences have been related, with comments made when people felt they were treated badly or unfairly, but whining and moaning? Where? My comment that I'll moan if I feel like it was meant as a joke...perhaps this wasn't obvious.

My "especially MEN" was not a sexist remark. Look at the context. What I actually said was women are rewarded for behaviour which doesn't upset people, especially men. I have perceived that to be the case. It was an observation. It could be right, or wrong, but where is it sexist?

Finally, you have twice suggested that I chill out. You have complained about my "whining and moaning". You have also complimented me on what you perceive as being positive (I refer to your comments on my bodybuilding story). I don't think you mean to be patronising, but it's beginning to come over that way. I almost expect you to pat me on the head for being a good little girl next. :) You have also made comments about other women's attitudes on this thread, quite frequently. May I politely suggest that you stick to the issues rather than make personal comments about people's attitudes to quite such an extent, especially since deducing attitudes from written posts is rarely accurate.

I obviously can't prevent you from answering these points, but my final comment is a plea. Let's not sabotage Westy's excellent thread. Many of us are finding this a relevant, useful, and essentially positive discussion...though I rather get the impression that you aren't one of them.

[redsnail]

I find PMT is the only time in the month when I can actually be myself. It's great. :E

[Flyin'Dutch']

Whirlybird,

Nowhere in my postings have I made comments other than on attitudes toward gender-bias and how I think this can be tackled in a positive and pro-active manner.

If you prefer not to have a discussion inter-pares about this subject, so be it.

However that does make your desire for a level playing field seem insincere.

For brevity I will not elaborate on the inconsistencies of your reasoning throughout the thread but I have to say that your claim:

My "especially MEN" was not a sexist remark
Is a true 'Houdini' and made me laugh! (<- non patronising laugh of course!)

Have fun!

FD

Houdini: American (Hungarian born) escapologist 1874-1926

[CSX001]

Whirlybird

I don't doubt the experiences of other people that you cite above. Where we part company is over your assertion that "it happens A LOT". We disagree because that is not my experience, or it appears, the experience of many of the other women posting on this forum.

I get the very occasional old git who walks past me whilst we are doing the meet and greet at the door and can be heard whispering things like "Its a WOMAN pilot... better get off now...", but nowadays, the public perception is that it reflects on the "old-git", rather than on me! Have I been subjected to prejudice and stereotyping? Not really, he's just an old git who thinks he's being funny.

Flyin' Dutch is obviously a pleasant enough chap with a love for DR400s who enjoys winding you up (Dat is waar, M. Nederlander?) There is a social skill involved in spotting that and dealing with it. These same skills exercised properly can make the difference between appearing to have a chip on your shoulder, versus having a normal healthy disregard for morons, whichever sex they happen to be.

I am not sure if Chill Out would be my advice. "Lighten up" perhaps?

Charlie.

[Miserlou]

I'm still waiting patiently for logical reply from Whirly as promised.

[WestWind1950]

and Miserlou, I'm still waiting for an answer about the Greek dance! :E

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

P.S. ok, to be fair... I not only fly, but I also teach international folk dancing.... and I know how to do the "Miserlou" :p anyone want to hire me for a bash??? :ok:

[Miserlou]

Well, you learn something every day. I thought you taking the piff.

I used to surf alot in my youth. Miserlou was a hit for Dick Dale and the Deltones in the sixties and no, I'm not THAT old.

You may know it better as the theme to Pulp Fiction.

Oh, The Surfari's, The Challengers.

I'm going to have to go and put some vinyl on.

[FireDragon]

Whirlybird:

You seem to have such a lot to say on every subject, but I notice now your 'back is to the wall', you have suddently declined to answer back. I wonder, does your talent for writing obscure people to the fact that probably, you're not nearly as knowledgeable as you would like us all to believe, and that you don't like critisism?

Come on - answer your critics!!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

So far as I can see, Whirly said "it seems to happen a lot". What's to answer in that? - all she's doing is stating her perception. Whilst the rest of us can state that our perception is different (and several have) we can hardly state that she's wrong and doesn't perceive what she says.

For example I might state "I think that you are ugly", which you can't dispute - but you can counter with other opinions who say that you are not, but doesn't change the fact that I think that.

G

[dublinpilot]

Well said Gen,

Whirly has stated her opinion, and about her experiences. Why would she need to restate it just because someone else has posted with doesn't see it exactly the same way?

Things have been said since my last post that I don't agree with, but my earlier posts showed what I thought. What's to be gained by saying the same thing again?

Repeating yourself hardly makes for interesting debate!

dp

[Whirlybird]

Firedragon,

I'm still here. Genghis and dublinpilot have answered for me, saying more or less exactly what I would have said if they hadn't got in first.

I've never claimed to be particularly knowledgeable...where did I give you that impression? Do I like criticism? Generally I'm not that keen; who is? But it doesn't bother me that much, or I wouldn't state my opinions as forthrightly as I often do; I'm not stupid you know.

My "back to the wall"? Is it? I hadn't noticed. I felt as though I had stated and restated my opinions, experiences, and perceptions, and there was really nothing more to be said. Some people disageed...well, OK. But I was really becoming bored with the subject, and with this thread. There was nothing to answer that hadn't been answered already. If you find a point that I haven't answered, and if I have time (I do have to work for a living occasionally you know), then I'll be happy to answer. At least...maybe. I might have better things to do over a weekend. ;)

[redsnail]

Darn it, PMT over. Now I have no excuse to be mean and tetchy. Oh yes I have. Fatigue. :E

[UL730]

There are ten of thousands of women engaged in flying every day - worldwide. They are called "hosties"

They do a wonderful job and salutations where credit is due. They have dominance in this sector of aviation - hard won and well deserved.

[FireDragon]

Temper, Temper!! Seem to have hit a bit of a nerve there.

Chill out....

[Maxflyer]

As a West ham supporter I often suffer PMT......

Post match Tension!

[Fly Stimulator]

FireDragon,

It seems to be you who needs to chill out :rolleyes:

[FireDragon]

Never been SO chilled in my life !!

Just stating the obvious..

[AerBabe]

Why do these threads always start in a really optimistic manner, with people calmly giving their impressions of how women in aviation stand today ... and then descend into a slanging match within about 3 pages?

If anyone blames PMT, I'll smash 'em in the face. :* :ouch:

PMT = Pilot Mediated Tension?

[Miserlou]

I think Fire Dragon was referring to the neurological evidence presented by myself and ignored by Whirlybird because it didn't match her perception of the world.

Not a good trait in either pilot or scientist.

[Whirlybird]

Miserlou,

In a male brain the two sides don't communicate (with each other) as well as a female brain does. The result is that the male brain becomes better at mathematics and technical subjects and is slower in developing language.


This statement, and a deduction from it that therefore men make better pilots, do not constitute "evidence", merely personal opinion. I'm in complete agreement with Flower with respect to your opinions, so see no reason to waste bandwidth by being repetitive.

Since this thread IS becoming repetitive, perhaps it would be simplest if we agreed to differ.

Unless you you all want to rename it the Let's-get-at-Whirly-Thread....in which case feel free, and I might or might not respond. :D :D :D :D

Please note the smilies attached to that last sentence.

[FireDragon]

Whirlybird

I'm not getting at you, simply stating that it APPEARS that you are 'knowledgeable' on most subjects, (maybe that is a correct perception, or maybe you like to add your 'twopenneth worth').

Whatever the case may, (or may not), be, I re-iterate that I'm simply stating that if someone posts against your arguments, you seem to become agitated, which reflects itself in your response. (Neurological or not, I don't know).

One poster on here states that she is not disagreeing with you, but that you 'part company' on how many times you perceive female discrimination in aviation occurs. She also states that the inability to interpret when you are being wound up makes a statement about that particular person.

My original posting about answering your 'critics' was in anticipation of what answer you may convey to her, (plus a few others).

It may interest you to know that I'm also female. I can count on half of one hand the number of times I've been discriminated against because of this.

It seems to me that it may be the MEN who are having a hard time these days. They are not, (and probably never will be), in the position to blame their sex if their flying comes in for any type of criticism at all.

To Whirlybird again. I've read various posts of yours over a period of time on the subject of being female, and it seems to me that perhaps you are looking in the wrong direction. It's so easy to say "they say/do this because I'm female, and they don't like female aviatiors" etc. etc.

Perhaps you should take a long, hard look at your shortcomings, (and we ALL have them), and ask yourself what the real reason is. AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE PICKED ON BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN.

[WestWind1950]

hello, it's me again... the starter of this thread :p

It's a pity it's turned into a big negative discussion between men and women in flying. There were some positive but many more negative experiences reported, also from me. And too many fly-guys think we are treading in their domain. Sorry guys... just move over :E

In my first posting I asked also for reports on how you, as a woman flying, manage to adjust family matters and does hubby also fly... not many answers on that.

When I started out, my kids were 10 and 8.. I started flying with power gliders and, weighing only about 47 kg (yeh, go cry... ) I always had to carry lead weights with me when I flew solo. I'll never forget what my son said after my check flight: "now your lead weights have gotten legs!" :ok: he meant himself, of course, since I could now take him along! Both kids started glider training when they were old enough, but they both dropped out of it... pity. Now I'm about to become a grandma (oh my gosh!! am I that old?).

Maybe we should have a forum section for women, and if it's just to exchange such experiences or ask other women how they managed. As always, suggestions always appreciated!

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[flower]

Westy,
I have to say I disagree with you , from what I can see there are many more positive comments than negative.
A separate womens section actually creates division when I thought the whole point we are trying to make is that we should all be the same. I will never understand the need for separate womens groups , when people are shouting that they want equality why oh why do they look to make themselves different.

We are people in aviation surely that is a common enough bond for us.

[WestWind1950]

hi flower,

yes, in some ways you're right... we are (hopefully) equal... but I know from other women and other forums there is often a need to share "typical" female problems ( and I don't mean that monthly one!!).
For example: in a German pilots forum some women asked about life as an airline pilots wife.... some very specific questions were asked from a young wife and mother.....and since the divorce rate is pretty high among airline pilots (at least the last I heard), then this could be a chance to find contact to someone who understands. Such threads would just get lost in the maze of threads here otherwise.
And, as mentioned before, sharing methods of managing flying and family.

We are, or should be, equal... but there are still things that are more a problem for women then men... I hope I could make myself clearer.

I am against women getting a job to fill a quota...they should get it on qualification only!! The thought that I may have gotten my job just because I'm a woman I think is dreadful!! What I'm saying is, this should not be about men vs. women, but just simply women in aviation...

Sorry to ramble... just found out that a glider pilot crashed and got killed not far from here a few hours ago... don't know yet what happened... the accident statistic is not too good this year I'm afraid... so, in some ways there are really more important issues at hand... and what we should really work toward is making flying safer !!!

Westy

[Whirlybird]

More positive comments, as Flower thinks? Or more negative, as Westy says?

I decided to find out. I went through the thread, reading the first post by each female contributor who discussed personal experiences. I felt we hadn't quite defined what we meant by positive and negative, but I decided "negative" would be any post describing what the individual perceived as discrimination against women. "Positive" would be where she hadn't perceived any. How people reacted to it, whether it annoyed them, or they ignored it, or whatever, is irrelevant in this instance. So are opinions not related to actual personal experiences. Sometimes it wasn't obvious which "side" people were on, and if I've misunderstood anyone, my apologies. I also apologise if I've left anyone out. But FWIW, here are the results as they appear to me:

Flower - positive
Whirly - negative
Westy - negative
PFLs Again - negative
flying femme - positive
pink_aviator - positive
maflsc - negative
redsnail - negative
Airbus Girl - negative
Cessnababe - negative
maggioneato - positive
HelenD - positive
Pipergirl - positive
Aerbabe - negative
flyin' shark - positive

That makes 7 "positives" and 8 "negatives".

Hmmm...now what does that prove?
:confused:

[ratsarrse]

Well, it doesn't prove anything! Any statistics can be massaged or interpreted to support any argument you care to adopt. What really matters is subjective experience. If you experience prejudice, then for you there is prejudice regardless of how many other people have only had positive experiences.

[CSX001]

Well, I'm not really offended to have been missed out. ;) Charlie is short for something feminine, honest! :D

I do sympathise with FireDragon's frustration. It would be nice to see genuinely stated contrary points of view debated, rather than being simply ignored.

I have always felt rather frustrated by women who seem to fall quickly back on to the gender card whenever faced with a challenge. I sense that others do not share that concern.

Still, boring thread now that the main protagonists have simply elected to dig trenches and stop talking.

Charlotte (but prefers Charlie) -A Girl, for those who are compiling survey results-

[Miserlou]

Well Whirly,

It may be personal opinion but I was only going on the word of nueroanatomist Laura Allen in the course of her work at UCLA. Her work is science, thus her findings must be scientific evidence.

I would also direct you to an article by Bennett and Shaywitz, 'Sex Differences in the Functional Organization of the Brain for Language', Nature, 1995, 373, 607-9, which offers the first evidence in the different brain patterns with regard to gender with the then brand new MRI technology.

Steve Biddulph also includes a short chapter, 'How Boys' and Girls' Brains Differ' in his book Raising Boys.

Where Biddulph falls short (though his book is not a scientific work as such) is his failure to record the difference in the habits of play of children aged 3-18 but points out that these differences are-
'only slight for most people;
are only tendencies;
don't apply to every individual;
and..... we don't have to accept them as limitations.'

You don't have to further than the nearest kindergarten or school to see how marked the natural gender differences are and that is the reason there aren't more women in aviation.

Would you like to comment?

[Pink_aviator]

Pinkser is not very good at good constructive aurguments or debates even
(gets tongue tied and says grand sweeping statements, that she cant always back up on the spot )
BUT have a spare minuit ,and thought i'd post in stead of just reading.

I do not know what has happened to me,but
I have spent all my life in ribbons and curls,frills and flounces,pastel and pinks.
I've ,also enjoyed it, and perhaps because of the feeling of "being looked after" alowances made for "being a girl" (sorry girls, i did enjoy it all )
and enjoying playing with real babies, have had my femine side reinforced,(if that makes sense)

So never really thought about going into any thing "male dominated"
"but of course if my girly ways hadn't been incouraged in the first place ,who knows etc etc"

Why then suddenly, have i been drawn to aviation,something that i definatly felt was for men (because i thought men were cleverer(do not shout girls ,i have changed my views on that now)

Initially , curiosity wanting to see if i could achieve "something men could do"
but now I am well on course to may be achieving it , I'm thinking to myself ,
"Well if I can do it it can't be that hard after all, so men are not so clever"

This of course could again be because "men" have made me believe i am only good ehough at the domestic bits.

oh well ,had my say .
do not know if i said any thing relevant, or if i completly lost the plot,or if i made any sense , but i did warm you , and i am a girl ,so should feel welcome on this thread.

PINKSTER
PINK-AVIATOR

[FireDragon]

Flower.

I completely agree with the statement you've made about not separating the girls from the boys; how will we ever attain true equality when we ourselves put up the barriers?

For the same reason, I would never elect to join organisations such as the BWPA - it's just more segregation. You don't have a B M(ens) PA for Gods sake.

CSX001

Strange, she's left me out of her list as well! (and as stated earlier, I'm a girl!). Any genuine 'survey' would list ALL contenders, regardless of whether or not they have upset Whirlybird.

Anyway, couldn't agree more with your definition of why this thread has become boring. The trench has been well and truely dug by the main propegator of the subject, I think.

FD

[Whirlybird]

pink_aviator,
EXTREMELY relevant, and very well put, as are a number of the things you say. So now you can stop apologising and saying you don't know anything. ;) :)

Miserlou,
I assumed you had got your comments on brain differences from somewhere, but thank you for the details. However, that is not NECESSARILY the reason for there being less women in aviation. It might be, but that is only your opinion. It does not PROVE it; there are too many other variables. I would like to quote from a recent BWPA newsletter:

When the Gloucestershire Group, including my two fellow female flying instructors and me, ran two days of trial lessons for women by women as part of the BWPA's Women in the Air 2000 fundraising campaign, I was amazed at the number of women who said they had come along simply because, although they liked the idea of flying, they had previously thought that aviation was a male-only environment. Some of them then went on to train for their PPLs.

Could this not possibly also be a reason?

CSX001,
Sorry to have missed you out. I guess that makes the "score" 50/50.

Contrary points of view debated? Westy asked about people's EXPERIENCES, which is what most of us were writing about. You can't really debate experiences. I have experienced incidents that seemed to be prejudice; you have not. That is interesting, but how do we debate it? Whether some people perceive things incorrectly is a different issue, as is how one reacts to prejudice or any other kind of treatment. Those can be debated. Those of us who first responded to Westy's thread may or may not wish to discuss them. On the whole I personally don't...although I can often get drawn into discussions if you keep on at me long enough. :) :) (note smilies!!!!) However, I have always felt rather frustrated by women who seem to fall quickly back on to the gender card whenever faced with a challenge.

That probably does happen sometimes. But that fact does not mean that prejudice does not sometimes exist. A number of the women who reported prejudice are professional pilots and instructors. They don't seem to have given up on challenges, do they? And "fallen back quickly"? That's an assumption on your part. I have at times assumed everything else, before realising that prejudice against women was the only other answer. Or I've been told it straight out, as have others...I don't want to quote too many times, but some of these have been reported here.

Why are you at such pains to insist that our perceptions are wrong? We're not saying that yours are. People have different experiences in aviation, as in life. Why is that a problem?

[CSX001]

I love your use of the Royal "we" in that last paragraph Whirlybird! I wasn't aware of being in a minority of one against "your" viewpoint. It gives a real, although undeserved sense of my intruding on "your" forum. A prize you might justifiably claim by volume of posts. Where do you find the time?


I also love the suggestion that we are not here to debate. The world is a poorer place if all we do is state points of view, and become unresponsive when questioned about them by those with differing experiences.

Proving that other people with differing experiences are wrong is not a reasonable objective, but finding out why people have different experiences, and whether it reflects on their approach to life in general is a reasonable goal.

Through the volume of your participation on Pprune you voluntarily give us the benefit of a large window on your life, views, experiences and prejudices. If I draw one thing from all of that, it is that nobody "wins" in any dialogue with you. You simply talk at them until they go away or get bored.

You win.

Charlie, one female pilot who now feels closer than ever to her male workmates.

[flower]

Charlie,

I'm with you girl.
In praise of my colleagues and friends in Aviation who may be predominantly male but so what, i enjoy working with you......... most of the time ;)

[FireDragon]

Charlie, you have hit the nail on the head.

There appears to be little point in trying to harvest any meaningful discussion / exchange of views on this thread anymore, because the main contender just prattles on.

Whirlybird. You are obviously an intelligent woman - it would be interesting to have a proper debate with you on why you perceive being that being female has been a bone of contention.

I'm sure you could comply in a logical fashion, rather than, (which has been said), talk us all to death, (or ignore us, if you don't like the way the tone of the 'debate' is going).

The gauntlet is laid down.....

[Wingover79]

Like many others I have been reading this thread with interest and have now decided it's time for me to post a reply.

I can honestly say that I have never had a negative experience in aviation - solely as a result of my gender. This is not to say that I have never been at the receiving end of what some would perceive as negative comments. I have heard all the usual remarks such as "does your Dad fly?" (no the only time my Dad has ever been in a light aircraft was when I took him up after I got my licence) "Are you learning to fly?" (assuming that I must be learning rather than have a licence), and all the other common assumptions already mentioned in this thread.

I could not however, attribute all of these remarks to the fact that I am female. When I first began having flying lessons I was 14 and at the time I often credited people's disbelief and assumptions to my young age rather than my sex. 10 years later and with the benefit of hindsight, this may not always have been the thought behind some comments, but rather than discouraging me, it did the opposite and encouraged me to not only pursue success in my flying and subsequent career in aviation, but to also promote aviation to young people (male and female alike) as a career opportunity that was equally available to all. I didn't take any comments I received personally and felt that they were just a indication of social conditioning at the time. I felt and still feel that the only way to change this situation is for more and more females to get involved in all aspects of aviation and prevent the gender issue being an issue at all.

My only worry is that, by its very nature threads like this and separate womens organisations will continue to foster segregation rather than prevent it. That being said I am a member of the BWPA and the Air League - both catering for my needs as a young female pilot. I did not join the BWPA because I wanted to become a member of a pilots sorority but because of the advice and membership benefits it could offer.

I apologise for my rambling but to go back to my original thought. I believe a comment can be either negative or positive depending on what the receiver perceives it to be. In my case I never considered any comments I received to be negative and in fact turned them into a positive. Other women may have felt differently. In fact just last week after stepping out of the aircraft after an IMC lesson, my instructor stopped to speak to a very experienced pilot on the apron. This gentlemen made the comment "ah good good I see another lady pilot is coming on board - how many hours have you got dear?" Now I could either take this negatively, the gentlemen in question obviously assumed I was still learning rather than have a licence - or I could take it as a positive (as I did), that he, although in a rather backhanded manner was trying to be encouraging, something that perhaps wouldn't have happened in the past. I would like to believe that he would have shown similar encouragement to anyone he came across on the apron - not just because I was young and female.

Until women in aviation is the norm rather than the exception, then these assumptions will persist. I do believe that with every generation things will improve but at the end of the day social constructions will continue to exist albeit in a diluted form in the future. Some people will say that some women are just not interested in aviation like men are - but the question needs to be asked, is this because of the lack of awareness in women rather than a lack of desire or because women are put off becoming involved in aviation because of preconceived ideas about other peoples perceptions? Whatever the reason is, this can only be resolved when all matters aviation are available and are pursued by all. When there is no division of gender or perceived division, then and only then can it be analysed as to whether most women are genuinly just not interested or have been prevented from becoming involved for other reasons related to gender. Education is the key to making informed decisions and hopefully by arming young people with education and instilling ambition and belief that they can do anything they want to do in to them - then this will break the mould.

I live in hope that one day this may be the case.

WO79

:ok:

[Flyin'Dutch']

CSX,

How very eloquently put!

I think you hit the nail on the head with:

nobody "wins" in any dialogue with you. You simply talk at them until they go away or get bored.

As you say some people confuse logorrhoea with substance!

:D

FD

[Whirlybird]

Whirlybird:
You seem to have such a lot to say on every subject, but I notice now your 'back is to the wall', you have suddenly declined to answer back.


nobody "wins" in any dialogue with you. You simply talk at them until they go away or get bored.

There appears to be little point in trying to harvest any meaningful discussion / exchange of views on this thread anymore, because the main contender just prattles on

Firedragon and CSX001
What would you have me do? I am confused. I was going to leave this thread, but came back when people appeared to be annoyed at my leaving questions unanswered. Now you want me to go away. Fine; I'll do that. Whatever you post, I won't answer; you are welcome to have the last word, to win if that's how you see it. I don't care, and that is the truth. I'm not annoyed, or needing to chill out; I just don't know what else to do. I just honestly don't know what I've done to upset you both. Firedragon, my apologies for leaving you off the List. It wasn't meant to be a survey as such. Westy and Flower were discussing whether there were more positive or more negative experiences; I just decided to count them. As far as I was aware, you hadn't posted any actual experiences. If you did, and I missed them, I'm sorry. If I annoyed you by missing you off anyway, I'm also sorry. I really mean that. I thought it might lighten the thread a little, doing that count. I was wrong.

Finally, I've in no way intended to imply that all my experiences in aviation have been bad, or that everyone has been prejudiced against me or against women in general. Far from it! I love flying, aviation has changed my life TOTALLY POSITIVELY, got a me a new career, and more people than I can count have helped me...that includes both men and women. But there were some exceptions to that. I simply decided to write about them on a thread where they were relevant.

I had no intention of hijacking this thread either, so now I'll leave. I probably won't come back to this thread at all actually. I hope that's OK with all of you.

Enjoy your flying, and maybe see you on another thread.

A very confused WHIRLY

[VFR800]

Dudes,

I have a female instructor, she's ace, in fact one of the best instructors I've had. She's caring, non-judgemental and disciplined enough to make you get the job done.

Men are undoubtedly different from wimmin, but how that makes them unfit for any occupation is beyond me, most women pilots (and I'm talking about instructors here, as they’re the only sort I've met) are professional, courteous and conscientious, unlike some male instructors I’ve had. Surely any such arguments as to gender suitability to a given occupation are nonsense.

Oh yeah, on a purely sexist note, my instructor's also a total babe, which makes flying EVEN better! (Sorry, it's a man thing).

:cool:

[Penguina]

Just looked back at the length of this and gulped!

I really don't understand why reactions to Whirlybird have been quite so angry and persecutory. She hasn't personally insulted anyone, just voiced strong viewpoints. I've noticed before that this particular subject is close to her heart, but that's OK, isn't it? It's close to mine too - how couldn't it be?

I don't understand in general why people are upset by minorities discussing where they occur difficulties, or how they can draw themselves out of the minority. I work with a lot of people who, nationwide, are classed as ethnic minorities and I sometimes feel excluded by discussions about their ethnicity, or challenged as a white woman when they feel there is discrimination which I don't recognise immediately. But this doesn't make me angry.

Much work has been done over the past few decades by women - and men in different ways - to adjust gender perceptions and broaden opportunities for everyone. This has made such a world of difference in such a short space of time that I feel sometimes that we have yet to adjust. However, there's no doubt either that, having set down this road, there is no room for complacency so soon. Look at all the Nick Horby-type books about men who feel redundant or inadequate now that women have changed their own roles.

I think that some of us who are younger perhaps don't identify pressures that we feel with the vast shift that feminism imposed on us all and this is what leads to complaints in young women about trying to establish two 'polar' camps. Trying to fill quotas is not ideal, of course, but how else are inequalities to be addressed? One day we will be able to do without, and that will be fantastic! Better to think too much about overcoming problems than not at all - at least that way people learn to challenge established assumptions.

These are hugely complex issues; they simply can't be summed up in a Daily Mail-esque pronouncement about common sense, or whatever. No one can be objective enough to attribute what they feel it might be to be a woman or a man into EITHER these famous 'biological' differences OR the handing down of values from centuries of unfair exclusion. Otherwise anorexia would be either 100% female or half and half, for example.

As for aviation. I have actually been surprised and relieved by the largely universal respect I have received, as I began this adventure crippled by a lack of confidence and part of this was being too aware of my age and gender. That said, two fellow (male) students in a row astonished me recently by commenting on how difficult they found it that I had succeeded before them (which had nothing to do with our respective talent OR our age OR our gender - it was just the way it worked out). I find that interesting.

I want my message to be positive because it would be unfair to imply that I've had a negative experience in the flying world (other than the snotty boy on the Cabair desk!). However, I will, for a laugh, relay one truly classic anecdote from when I went along to that Flyer pilot training fair thingy with a friend (who was male) in tow for moral support. I approached the man from GAPAN for any advice he might like to offer. Firstly he looked at my friend and said 'So you want to be a pilot then?'. When corrected, he looked taken aback but then commented: 'Ah, well, then, you know what they say. It takes three things to succeed in this game: talent, toughness or tits.'

He was an older guy, and I wouldn't imagine someone closer to my own age being blatently coarse and sexist like that. It did, however, leave my friend and me doing goldfish impressions for a few seconds, which is surely a good sign!

[CSX001]

Good post Penguina

I don't think anybody is seeking to make "angry and persecutary" attacks on Whirlybird.

She is a vociferous and opinionated poster who does not hesitate to contradict others, and this will naturally result in her getting contradicted back. This is something that she clearly has a problem with, and this has not been the only post in which she has encountered difficulties. This is a shame, but it is life.

Trying to discern people's real personalities from their online personae is a dangerous game. If Whirly is in real life, as she comes across online, it is not difficult to see why she might bring out the worst in a certain type of man... which she may in turn see as discrimination or persecution.

It is a two way street, as the old cliche goes.

Charlie.

[robair]

I don't have time to read all yhe replys so I will put my 2 cents worth in any way.:cool:
to start with yes i am a bloke .
But my experience is that we have two types of women aviators, A woman trying to prove herself in a mans world. usually (I won't say b****):)) but a bit hard to get along with, althought a good pilot, and the other is what I term as one of the boys. She is usually a top person(chick, girl, whatever) GREAT pilot and fantastic to work with.
Two examples I can note are One instructor I once knew in Perth who had me in stiches of laughter with the quote about the aeroclub" that place has more bars in there then a pornographic book shop". I do miss working with her.
The other was a student Exelent pilot and good learner.
So no as a male pilot I don't think its a mans world. But maybe I should say something sexist shouldn't I;) ?

[FireDragon]

Firedragon. Keep your personal thoughts about someone else to yourself and not on this thread. Your points may be valid but out of place here.
BRL.

[BRL]

Please don't turn this into a Whirly bashing thread.

Its a pretty interesting insight to how people feel about a tricky subject in aviation.

Anymore of this and I will simply bin each thread as you write them so don't bother wasting any more time.

Enough is enough now.

[CSX001]

Women in Aviation, squabbling ladies kept apart by an protective male Admin ;)

I hope the irony is not lost on anybody :D

Charlie.

[WestWind1950]

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/cry.gif what's happened to my thread??? as Big Red 'L' said, there could have been soooo many interesting postings..... well, I won't give up hope......yet! otherwise I'll come to get you.... http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/pcangry.gif

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

P.S. I find myself not experiencing as much discrimination today as in the past... maybe times are changing and the way people think about women in aviation, too. :ok:

[Whirlybird]

Westy,

I hope for your sake that what I'm about to say won't turn this thread into a battleground. If you think it will, and you'd rather it didn't, pm me and I'll delete the post.

This afternoon, seriously wondering exactly what I'd said or done to precipitate such vehement attacks, I read the whole thread again. And I came upon this in my first post:

women have been tentatively accepted in areas that are predominantly male for years, but only by "being one of the lads", and keeping quiet about that nasty and uncool subject - prejudice. But you see, I don't do that. I say it how I see it. And if I'm not liked for it, tough. And often I'm not, by either men, who don't want these things pointed out, or by women, who fear a male backlash.


Was it prophetic, I wonder. Just...note...wonder. But it might...just might...explain a lot.

Penguina touched on something similar:
I don't understand in general why people are upset by minorities discussing where they occur difficulties, or how they can draw themselves out of the minority. I work with a lot of people who, nationwide, are classed as ethnic minorities and I sometimes feel excluded by discussions about their ethnicity, or challenged as a white woman when they feel there is discrimination which I don't recognise immediately. But this doesn't make me angry.

People may not agree with what I say. They may not like me. They may also think I post too much, that I'm too opinionated, that my views are rubbish, and all sorts of other things. This sort of thing is normal on PPRuNe, and happens all the time. But absolutely nothing I said or did could LOGICALLY account for the anger, the depth of emotion, that has been directed at me on this thread. It reached the state of being utterly bizarre. When I read the post that BRL afterwards deleted, I just burst out laughing.

But there must be a reason for people to get that annoyed. And such reactions, in my experience, usually occur because people feel threatened on some level, or in some way. Is that the case here? It would be completely understandable if it were. An interesting subject for discussion, maybe, anyway.

However, might I suggest that IF the above is discussed, people discuss my views rather than me as a person. I'm now completely aware of what some people think of me (I could hardly not be, could I?) And I don't care, and it's not relevant.

Anyway, BRL might well delete any personal attacks, even though I told him that as far as I was concerned he didn't need to. :) :) :)

[CSX001]

Your first quote implies that women who disagree with you (or your views on prejudice against women) are in denial and are in fact in "fear of a male backlash". If so that is exceptionally disingenuous.

If as you say, you wish to understand why your comments provoke strong reactions ("Anger"), this kind of thing would be a good starting point. Combine that with examples such as your rather down-the-nose use of the royal "we" in your earlier response to me, and I think the stage is set quite nicely.

Others doubtless have their own reasons, but I would imagine that there are some common traits.

On the issue at hand...

Like many young(ish) ;) women today, I feel able to conduct my life substantially free of prejudice on the basis of my sex. I am at least as well off as the Male applying to be a PA in the City. I think I may be rather better off than the Male applying to be a child-minder/baby-sitter. There has never been a time when I could achieve more, and feel more at ease in the company of fellow pilots of both sexes.

I suspect that I am not alone in feeling that the guilt card may have been played rather too heavily against men, to the point when a father may feel awkward kissing or hugging his young daughter and ordinary emerging relationships start to get hampered by unnecessary fears about political correctness.

Part of this must be laid at the door of earlier generations of ban-the-bomb, vegetarian, burn-your-bra, men-hating womens-libbers of yesteryear.

Times change, and the message needs to change with them for fear of becoming a cracked record with an irrelevant message.

Charlie.

[Whirlybird]

Charlie,

Actually you misunderstood to what I was referring with that "we"...but never mind. Don't you think you and I should just agree to differ, perhaps?

Anyway, this point about age has come up a couple of times, either by you or someone else. Actually, I think in some case it's the other way round - that younger woman are very ready to make accusations of sexism, when a more mature woman would recognise joking, banter or intentional winding up. I'm thinking of a specific example. When I did my CPL tech exam course, I was told that the tutor had a reputation for being sexist. I was the only woman in the group, and the first day he treated me no differently from anyone else. So I was caught completely unawares on the second morning when I said "Can I ask what is perhaps a stupid question", and he replied instantly: "Well you're a woman. I'd expect you to ask stupid questions"

Apparently sexist. Except he wasn't. He was ex-military, and enjoyed trying to wind me up with military-type banter. I quickly realised this, and replied in kind, so that comments about piston engines being like my car engine, but of coiurse I'd never looked under there, had I, got a retort from me that of course I hadn't, I got men to do that for me, I wasn't stupid. It was a game, it got a laugh from the others...and I didn't mind because deep down on the level where it mattered this guy treated me as equal to anyone, and believed I could pass those exams..or do anything else. This is very very very different from people who pay lip service to equality, but deep down, and sometimes unconsciously, think women are inferior. I can tell the difference. I've run into it often enough to know. But I don't know that I could when I was younger. And I'm apparently not unique. Discussing things after the course, I said to the tutor that he had a reputation for being sexist, but "You just pretend to be". "****, you've seen through me", was his response. He then said he'd enjoyed sparring with me; most of the young girls couldn't take it. Yes, I thought, but didn't say; but CPL exams are hard enough for most young girls without having to put up with that kind of stuff too. Maybe I should have said it to him; I didn't; I don't know why. Anyway, you get my point I hope...this issue is not necessarily simple.

[flower]

Whirly
I have been appalled at some personal comments that have come your way.
You and I have agreed on a number of occasions to disagree.

We both know that what we want is true equality I think its simply that the way you post may come across to those you do not know you as one who is a revolutionary and sees discrimination wherever you go.

That could simply be a matter of my misinterpretation of course

CSX001 s words strike home with me and are very much how I feel about the subject

[Flyin'Dutch']

However, might I suggest that IF the above is discussed, people discuss my views rather than me as a person

I agree that no thread on here should be used to bash or humiliate anyone but surely we can discuss people's points of view and arguments.

As you suggest I think that there needs to be room to differ in opinion, something which is very much the case here. There are obvious 2 different 'camps' with little risk of supporters of either point of view crossing over.

So be it.

However if that is heartfelt by you I think that comments as:

But there must be a reason for people to get that annoyed. And such reactions, in my experience, usually occur because people feel threatened on some level, or in some way
and
Actually you misunderstood to what I was referring with that "we"...but never mind
are less than helpful. As they could be interpreted as attempts to be demeaning and condescending towards the others' points of view.

As Flower said:

CSX001 s words strike home with me and are very much how I feel about the subject
especially the bit in her last post were she says:

Times change, and the message needs to change with them for fear of becoming a cracked record with an irrelevant message.

FD

[CSX001]

Now you want me to go away. Fine; I'll do that. Whatever you post, I won't answer; you are welcome to have the last word

Are you going to tell me that I misunderstood this too? ;)

Charlie

[FireDragon]

Big Red L may delete me, (that's HIS priviledge), but I still stand by the statements made.

If someone is being 'discriminated' against as much as Whirly apparently is, then surely it's time to look elsewhere for the reason: It CAN'T always be because she's a woman.

Whirly sites example after example of discrimination. If this is the case, why doesn't it happen to all of us girls?

As I previously stated, personally I think that it's the MEN who are having a hard time these days, not necessarily in aviation, but certainly in other areas of life. They can't turn around and blame it on their sex; neither should we.

I have worked within the 'male dominated' sectors for most of my life, and played in them, (to cite one example, aviation). OK, so maybe occasionally someone,(male), may make a comment to do with gender that I COULD take seriously, but I think I'm level headed enough to deal with it. In other words, it's no big issue.

Hopefully, Big Red L will be man enough to leave this post alone!

FD

[Whirlybird]

Charlie,
Touche! ;) Point number 1001 or whatever to you. :) OK, I changed my mind. So what; this is PPRune. I went away for a few days didn't I? Pretty good for a PPRuNeaholic like me, don't you think? :D :D :D :D :D :D

flower,
I don't see discrimination wherever I go actually. But even if it appears that way, and even if it were the case, I'm not sure that it's such an awful horrible dreadful crime, and it doesnt seem to explain some of the personal insults I've received.

Flyin'Dutch,
I take your point, but if everyone took every general point as personally as that and got annoyed about it, and if everyone thought ten times before they posted about how anything could possibly be construed by the 60,000 people who might read it.... Well, OK, maybe I'll try harder. OK?

One possibly interesting point...

...ban-the-bomb, vegetarian, burn-your-bra, men-hating womens-libbers of yesteryear.


The interesting thing is that with a very few rare exceptions they didn't actually exist! As far as I remember, and I was a student in the late 60s, the only bra that got burnt was a symbolic gesture at a meeting or similar, and the media got hold of it and ran and ran and ran. Most of us thought bras were extremely liberating, especially for the well-endowed! I don't recall any men-hating either. I went to one women's lib meeting, and the things that got discussed were abysmally low pay (pre-Equal Pay Act of course) and similar social problems. The friend who came with me asked if we were going to discuss attitudes to women in general, and the response was that while we had situations like single women unable to feed their kids even with fulltime jobs...no, we weren't; first things first. It was basically a social and political organisation on the whole...except in the newspapers (and with possibly a few rare and well reported exceptions).

Just thought you might like to know that.

[Northern Highflyer]

Discrimination exists still in all areas of life, but I don’t believe it is quite as widespread as some make out. I am sure there are many men enjoy mixing with women as equals (I know I do) and sharing interests such as flying, but does that mean we have to watch every word we say for fear of offending someone ? Without doubt there are arrogant self centred people out there who will discriminate against anyone, not just against women. These people have insecurities they need to deal with, or maybe they can’t so they discriminate.

We are in danger of becoming too PC, and at risk of taking some of the fun out of life. A bunch of men out together will take the p!$$ out of each other (as do women probably), but if the group was mixed and a man took the p!$$ out of a woman is he deemed to be sexist and discriminatory ? There are men out there who will discriminate against a woman, but there are women out there who will look for a sexist comment in every remark a man makes.

Little is said of discrimination against men. For example, my local nightclub has a “ladies night” up to 11pm with £5 entry fee and drinks free all night. Men are allowed in after 11pm for £2 and have to pay for their drinks. Is that fair ?

There are mixed and women only gyms, yet I see little evidence of a men only gym, and imagine the complaints if there ever was one ?

There was mention of a women only forum on here, why ? There are no men only forums.

Women are as guilty of fuelling the discrimination issue as men. People of both sexes need to learn how to laugh and have fun again in this PC world we live in and not take things so seriously. Those types I mentioned at the beginning of the post who are genuinely resentful of the opposite sex will soon be found out by both men and women. We have to learn the difference between a bit of fun and genuine sexist comments. I have had the “you’re only a man” comment and had my standard of ironing ridiculed by female friends many times and I love it, it’s just fun and I don’t have a problem with it. If I wanted I could play the sexist card but I know they are just winding me up. :P

I agree with CSX001 when she says

I suspect that I am not alone in feeling that the guilt card may have been played rather too heavily against men, to the point when a father may feel awkward kissing or hugging his young daughter and ordinary emerging relationships start to get hampered by unnecessary fears about political correctness.

Men are now in a position where we do not know how to be or act with a woman as we get so many contradictory messages.

Discrimination exists for both sexes, but maybe men are more likely to just get on with things. Equality means being able to make comments about someone of the opposite sex like you would to someone of your own sex without fear of being labelled a sexist. Maybe we should start there.

[Miserlou]

Whirly,

I wonder if you'd have put Darwin straight on a few things if had the chance. "You know Chas, this Origin of Species, haven't you considered..........."

Biddulph again, (a sub chapter entitled 'Boys are not inferior- just different'.
"As well as having mathematical and mechanical abilities, males tend to be action-oriented......"
"The right side of the brain handles both feelings and actions, so men are more lokely to take action while women tend to mull over something to the point of paralysis!"

Evidence is to be found in your own reply to my last "...they had previously thought flying was a male-only environment."

Also another poster on this thread who didn't know how to get started.
So rather than go and find out, which would take no longer than a trip to the Yellow Pages and a telephone call or two, they just didn't take any action at all.

Or, the interest was not strong enough that they did so.

CSX. re. BRL's input.
Exactly what I was thinking!

[WestWind1950]

After making a reply in the "Jetblast" thread, I'll now try to "rescue" my thread here ;)

What do we have? We have many women that have experienced discrimination in the flying community, myself included, and it wasn't always "imagined" either! The head instructor who refused to sign me up as an instructor because I was a woman actually said and meant it!! And that I got no support from the club board is also a fact! I don't mind the usual comments and banter... I "tolerate" the sexist jokes and comments and counter with remarks of my own!
I have also experienced clubs that didn't care if the person was a man or woman... my present club is that way, but we still have too few women flying in it! And that's the whole point! Why? I know so many women that fly as passengers with their hubbies, but when you ask them why they don't learn themselves they look at you as if you said something naughty!! (I didn't honest! :eek: )

The idea behind a forum area primarily (not exclusive) for women subjects is simply the fact that yes, there are subjects that only interest women like (these are just samples and aren't questions that I, myself, have..):
what do you do with your kids when you go flying? (men could ask that, too, but it is usually a woman's concern, isn't it?)
I'm married to an airline pilot and can't cope, who can help me? (I used to be married to an airline pilot and could give tips here, as maybe other airline wives could).
I fly often with my hubbie but don't fly myself because of medical reasons, how can I help him when we fly together? (an answer could be getting the radio licence, for example)

just a small example... but I'm sure the list could get very long and interesting!
I will stop my rambling now and grab my second cup of coffee :D

wish you all a nice weekend... I'll check in now and again!!

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[Thread Bear]

Getting back to the original question...!!!

I am female and did my heli training in Australia a few years ago. I was encouraged then and still get encouragement now from many, particularly my male counterparts.

I have made some great mates along the way and to them I say cheers. Perhaps it's an Aussie thing, I dunno!

Occasionally I have been the brunt of a joke for whatever reason but it is exactly that - a joke!! I laugh. I have laughed along when the joke has been on someone else, a bloke, a dog, or a paintjob on a machine.

Some people need to to relax, take things a little less seriously and learn how to laugh a little.

[Whirlybird]

Westy,

When you first suggested a forum for what are predominantly women's issues, I couldn't see the point. But on reflection, I think it's a good idea.

Possible points against, that have been raised - we don't need it, it might prove divisive, there are no "women's issues".

Well, it might be a good idea to post a separate thread to see if we "need" it, ie is there enough interest? Maybe put a link in other forums, eg cabin crew, airfield notices, ATC, since this is not just a private pilots issue.

Prove divisive? Of course, there will be the usual divisive element who will try to make it so, but moderators could cope with that. Otherwise, it's following a long tradition of having organisations/groups for minorities - the BWPA, FEWP (Federation of European Women Pilots), WhirlyGirls (International female helicopter pilots) in aviation; groups for everything from Chinese to Jews at universities; and groups representing different age groups in a variety of sports. Sometimes members of minorities can feel isolated, and they can have issues that, if not unique to them, are more common among them, and they want to share them. Nothing wrong with that, and when it ceases to matter, or they cease being a minority, the groups usually fold as they're not needed. Others are usually welcome in these minority groups if they want (men can join both the BWPA and WhirlyGirls), and that would of course be the same on PPRuNe. Women in aviation are definitely a minority, so why not?

Are there any women's issues? Westy has named a few which tend to be primarily, though not exclusively, female problems. If some men have them too, then fine, they can join in.

Points for the idea? Like for any other forum, if enough people want it, then why not? Although I personally don't have issues connected with family and children, possibly other women do. If so, it could be useful to have a special forum for those issues.

Finally, it might be worth remembering that the Private Flying forum initially started due to requests from a few of us. At the time there were some people dead against it, saying there was no need for it, as the issues could be debated on the existing forums. Yet look at it now!

[AerBabe]

If we did have a womens' forum, the first question I'd like to ask is:
What do you do if you're caught short? :uhoh: :oh: :ooh: :{
Anyone ever tried one of those 'Lady Jane Adapters'? Look pretty undignified if you ask me. Can you imagine... flying along in your PA28 or whatever, you turn to the person in the RHS and say "Can you take control for a while please?" You then proceed to remove your harness and umpteen layers of clothing before politely asking everyone to avert their gaze...

I guess the easy answer is to fly an aircraft that needs pit stops more often than you do. Like a Chipmunk for example? :O

[WestWind1950]

hi Whirly, hi AerBabe!!

AerBabe points out a matter that isn't quite as "funny" as it may seem... it is a problem!
Question: what to do on a long glider flight? wear pampers? :uhoh: Now that is a very "just for women" question! :D
Most aircraft are built for "men sized" people, i.e. we women are often too short (here the men are in the minority ;) ). I tried flying a Mooney once... the rudders were too far away and the more pillows I put in my back, the closer I got to the panel.. uff. There do exist rudder-extensions, but my flying club refused to put out the money for them, as they said, "just for me"! Later I mentioned the fact of these extensions existing to other memebers and another woman also thought it a good idea (she'd had the same problems I did) and even a few men very sheepishly admitted to also needing them. Well, to this day the club doesn't have them.... but then, that's the club I quit because of the head instrutors :mad: anti-woman attitude.

@Whirly
today I spent watching Helicopters... I'll explain it too you some day :p

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[Whirlybird]

Westy,

Being another "Porg" (Persons Of Restricted Growth, as my shorter-than-average male hang-gliding instructor used to call us :)) I know all about that one. I have a collection of cushions, including an inflatable one that lives in my flight bag for when I hire something unexpectedly, since I can NEVER reach the pedals on any aircraft without. :{ I've also become an expert on what rubber tubing to use to fit on the ends of altimeter knobs etc in the R22... inertia belts won't stretch enough for me to reach them otherwise. Not 100% a female question, but more often, as you said. :ok:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Good luck laydieez,

Glad to read that I may join as it would hurt a bit if you didn't value my points of view on aerial urinating, how I cope with looking after my 5 kids when I want to go flying (as my wife works weekends) how I cope with my very short legs in a Mooney etc.

After all I do enjoy listening to BBC4 on a saturday afternoon as well!

FD