Biggin Hill - An accident waiting to happen?

[Big Hilly]

I was flying back in from a jolly over the weekend; I think it was about 17:00. Dialled up 129.4 and it was complete pandemonium. People stepping on other transmissions, Jet traffic on the ILS screaming to get a word in edgeways – in a word utter chaos! The reason for this? Yet again, instead of having the Tower and Approach frequencies in use (as virtually every other airfield in the South East manages – especially on a busy Weekend afternoon) Biggin has just the one.

Biggin has, in my experience, probably the most professional ATCO’s I have ever come across. They do an exceptional job in an extremely busy environment. But the airport is so busy that it is verging on criminal to have just one frequency in use (as I said above; ESPECIALLY on a busy Weekend afternoon) as believe you me, it IS an accident waiting to happen!

Now rumours abound in the Pilots bar across the field as to why this is continuing to happen; some sublime, some ridiculous but given especially (and I stress that this is another rumour from across the field) that the CAA are apparently none too pleased with the one frequency thing, surely, this is playing with fire?

I know that I am not alone in this one and I know that the SATCO occasionally comments on here (Called ‘The Mad Controller’ I think) and I wondered if he could maybe set the record straight?

Would be interested in hearing fellow Ppruners views on this one.

Best wishes,

BH

[singaporegirl]

I'm surprised. In my experience Biggin normally does have both Tower and Approach frequencies going on weekend afternoons.

[SATCO Biggin]

When I flew back from a jolly on Sunday it was relatively peaceful and on two frequencies, however.........

I am somewhat puzzled that you have decided to post this to a forum rather than contact me directly on the telephone, but I expect you do have your reasons for doing so.

In order that I can investigate your claim perhaps you can narrow down whether this situation ocurred on Saturday or Sunday and supply a more precise time. Then I can interview the staff on duty that day.

I would also treat with care rumours that you pick up in bars.

Anticipating your response.

SATCO
Biggin Hill

[AlanM]

We chuck the IFR stuf to 134.8 at weekends - can't remember ever using 129,4 at that time of day.

And Big Helly is obviously the model pilot who never makes long life story calls or gets readbacks wrong.

"utter chaos" is a simply ridiculous statement my friend. As have said many times they work very well ALL the time in the tower there.

[wizpigbig]

:mad: Pandemonium,pilots stepping on transmissions (nothing unusual there then) jet traffic screaming to get a word in and Finally utter chaos. OK tell the truth, which controller upset you , and told you off. To use such emotive language is nothing short of scandalous. Remember when you point your finger at somebody THREE more are pointing at yourself:8

[Monocock]

Come on you lot!

Big Hilly was recounting his experience whilst inbound to Biggin. He clearly felt concerned at the availablity of an ATCO and surely it is not a crime to be concerned at your own welfare!!

If you read it again you will see that he comments on how professional the ATCO's are and his comment about it being "criminal" to only have one ATCO on is only a term of phrase to describe the situation. (just as I would say "it is criminal to eat curry without a lager").

For someone to register under a separate name (which they clearly have) to pass their comments to his post seems rather cowardly and somewhat ludicrous.

Perhaps he should have contacted the ATCO after landing to discuss his concerns rather than posting them on here. We all make mistakes don't we?

[Big Hilly]

Ok, let's get the playground taunts out of the way first:

1. No, I wasn't upset or told off by a controller and I don't have some psychotic axe to grind with Biggin Hill, ATCO's, the Fuelers, the fire brigade, the bloke who cuts the grass or the lady wot does the tea’s Great Aunt Mary’s budgerigar.. . . .

2. No, I'm not hiding behind another username. I've been 'lurking' on PPrune for some time now. I just registered because I had hoped to have a sensible discussion about this.

OK, with the children dealt with. . . on with the show. . . . ;)

TMC, thanks for your prompt reply.

It was Saturday - forget the time now –GA log book not with me - but not very late - certainly well before 6pm possibly even 5pm. I'll be honest though, it's nowhere near the first time it's happened . Now I know that there are bound to be lulls when nothing much happens and then suddenly all hell breaks loose - I for one couldn't do a controller’s job in a million years and I'm full of admiration for the guys and gals there at Biggin, but as an 'end user', I honestly feel that there is a problem here. When those busy times come as they tend to quite often at Biggin it does make life rather difficult and in my opinion dangerous when you're up in the air. For example, I've lost count of the number of times when I've been asked to report 3 miles deadside and haven't been able to get the call in until I was over the 03 numbers because the world and his wife were calling for Taxy, Circuits, Radio Checks etc etc. This simply doesn't happen when the frequencies are split.

Now, why did I post this on here rather than phone you? Well, with respect, we know how small the aviation world is and we certainly know how small the aviation world is at Biggin, so that probably answers your question. . . . I've seriously thought, however, of contacting CHIRP but I figured that a friendly, mature discussion on here may give me a better insight into what the problems are and be slightly less ‘official’. Believe me, there was no malice or ulterior motive involved here just the wish for more info.

As to the rumours - well, I did say that they ranged from the sublime to the ridiculous and which I why I didn't mention them. Am I mistaken, however, about the CAA's view on this subject?

Anyway, many thanks again for your prompt reply and I appreciate your help and frankness.

Best wishes,

BH

[CAUTION VORTEX WAKE]

I have to say as someone who flys from EGKB regularly he does have a valid point.

It gets so busy one one frequency sometimes that it even scares me.

Just my 2p though.

[wizpigbig]

Big Hilly has a point, maybe, but maintaining a split frequency is not the simple answer. Even when both frequencies are operational at weekends, either one of them is subject to extremely busy periods due to the nature of the traffic at Biggin Hill . For a start most of the clubs run a similar system for booking students lessons. This results in a " everybody out/ everybody in "
situation with either the tower or approach being busy. Ask the clubs to change this and they are obviously reluctant to do so, since they all want to get the majority of flying hours they can.
Secondly at about 1100 every weekend you get the private owners who, having had a good breakfast decide that they are now ready to go to LFAT ( and similar such places for lunch). This of course coincides with the end of the first club details and the begining of the second lot ( give or take 30 mins).
Middle of they day ,basically very quiet.
Then we have the period refered to by Big Hilly, when the world and his dog, who went out in the morning want to get back so they can drink and have a chat before going home. Yes sometimes it does get busy ,but to use the phrases in original posting I repeat is scandalous. Running out of space see next posting

Big hilly says he wants a reasonable discussion I would suggest this is not the place. Should the CAA SRG read this, and I am sure they will they will be given totally the wrong impression. Utter chaos ,screaming jet pilots,etc. Come on Big Hilly be precise with your times so the SATCO can listen for himself.

There is of course an answer.
Telephone booking out. Costly and time consuming, Pilots would never be able to get through and ATC would have to have an extra dedicated member of staff.

Make airfield strictly PPR.

Finally ATC would issue departure slots and arrival slots based on commercial TFC that has planned in/ out.

At the momment Biggin ATC operates a system that allows most pilots to come and go as they please. Comments like the first posting will do nothing to solve the situation . How would he like it if if his capabilities were described as shambolic and chaotic.
I trust this comment is not to childish for him and would repeat an earlier posting Come out of the closset and talk to ATC direct.

One more thing many apologies for spelling mistakes as you can tell I'm not a typist

[Big Hilly]

wizpigbig,

Thanks for your reply. I say again: The ATCO's at Biggin provide an excellent service, they are highly professional and friendly. I have no complaints WHATSOEVER about them and I CERTAINLY dont feel them to be 'shambolic and chaotic' - I mean that sincerely. My complaint is about the two frequency issue and NOTHING more! In my opinion it is SIMPLY UNSAFE!

I'm sorry that you felt my original phrases 'scandelous' - but they were, nonetheless, true. I'm sorry but it's that simple.

Best wishes,

BH

[flower]

Does Biggin Hill have ATSAs , if they do then telephone booking out is an immediate help to the ATCO.

We operate a system of booking out via the telephone , it works well and takes some of the workload off the ATCO, even if they don't have an ATSA it would still ease some of the ATCOs workload by allowing the ATCO to take the call when they are able to do so ie : ususally only a few seconds delay but definitely has advantages over booking out over the RT.

In the Flying Club and in our Self Briefing Unit we have instructions printed out and displayed for the correct format for pilots in which to bookout over the Telephone.
When we get the occasional person forgetting and booking out over the RT it can up my workload considerably.

[wizpigbig]

Now I Know why I've never bothered with this before. Big Hilly you have completely missed the point Just because you could not follow what was going on dont assume the ATCO couldnt. But then you are a pilot and I forgive you .OUT


Flower we do have ATSA but with all the A/C based at biggin It would literally be a full time job just answering the phone

[Big Hilly]

Just because you could not follow what was going on dont assume the ATCO couldnt. But then you are a pilot and I forgive you .OUT

Oh dear, now we've resorted to name calling. I am a pilot so can 'Rise above it'.

It would literally be a full time job just answering the phone

Hey, call me crazy, but why not make it a 'full time job' by recruiting an extra controller or two and making the whole operation safer for all???

wizpigbig you obviously work at Biggin - so maybe you can tell me from the Watch Log what time exactly 134.8 was shut down on that busy Saturday afternoon?

ONCE AGAIN :rolleyes: I'm just concerned with safety. As a pilot I can just about manage to read and write and tie my own shoe-laces etc etc. . . . and can even just about manage to keep up with the hectic R/T of Biggin.

I really don't want to turn this into yet another controller/pilot battle as I have no battle with the Fine ATCO's of Biggin.

Anyway, Sod it. I've obviously wasted my time trying to gleen some sensible info and get some answers off the record. Maybe I should have just filed a MOR or CHIRP report, written to the CAA or even turned a blind eye and waited for something awful to happen?

I have been civil and polite throughout all of this - perhaps you could show me the same courtesy?

BH "OUT"!

[wizpigbig]

Civil ?
I repeat even though I did not intend to ,If you're that concerned SPEAK TO US DIRECTLY .

[Tocsin]

Wizpigbig,

If your attitude "in real life" is similar to the one that comes across on PPRuNe *I* wouldn't want to speak to you directly!

Looking at this thread, I can see why the originator felt the need for anonymity...

[flower]

Seriously, the situation of booking out by phone has made a big differance at both the Airfield I work at now and my previous one . We went from a situation of booking out over the RT , loads of work for the ATCO with backup required from the ATSA, people calling up at a time when you really needed to be doing something with more urgency, to one where all ground movements are expected, greater planning time and more RT time available.
The workload on the ATSA is no more just better planned for them , as they are able to correctly prepare Flight progress strips for us , which again makes there Life easier with logging all movements. We have a lot of GA to working with us intermixed with Commercial aircraft , our ATSAs do not spend all their time on the phone , it may just be an option to consider at some point.

The bookout procedure via the telephone takes seconds as all comply with the format displayed by the phone where they book out.

[Timothy]

I guess as an owner-pilot at Biggin, I must put in my 2p worth.

I have operated an Aztec there for a while now and while there have definitely been moments when the one frequency is rather frenetic, I have never, never, I repeat never experienced a time when I have felt that safety has been compromised.

There have been times when I have been gob-smacked at the ability of the controller to stay on top of so much traffic. Sometimes it has literally seemed super-human that one person can process so much information so accurately, so quickly, and make so few mistakes (usually, I must stress, none.) And this in an environment of such diversity, from R22s and Enstroms, to 150s, to moths to fast singles, faster twins and much faster jets.

I am sure that if the controllers felt that it was unsafe they would voice their opinions to The Mad Controller, and he (whom I have know many years) is a careful, thoughtful man, as much a pilot as a controller (YAKs I believe?), and would act.

It is also their butts which are on the line. If they fall short of their duty of care and the result is a death they risk not only their livlihood but even their liberty.

OTOH, if Big Hilly feels, as an aircraft commander, that a situation that threatens the safety of the aircraft and pax in his care has arisen, he too has a duty to take action.

Let us see through his rather emotive (and arguably unhelpful) language to the message behind it. It is not only his own life, but the lives of hundreds of others that he feels obliged to protect, so give the guy some air to make his point, if he feels that this is the best place.

I can understand his reluctance to talk to TMC directly (though he will find him to be a charming and receptive man) but there are many other routes open to him, from CHIRP, MOR, quiet phone call to the CAA.

If the CAA asks me, I will tell them that I do not perceive there to be a problem. But if they find evidence that there is a problem they will act accordingly.

That's what a no-blame culture of safety is about.

[/RAMBLE]

W

[Big Hilly]

wizpigbig,

I have been fortunate enough to be employed flying big jets (I currently fly 757's and 767's) for more years than I care to remember. God forbid, they even let me talk to the likes of Heathrow and JFK when I’ve managed to do up my shoelaces properly.

I have all too often seen the consequences of ‘Speaking Directly’; be it to management or even to ATC. The aviation industry is a small world and I would rather like to remain part of it for a few more years to come. This is the very reason that strict anonymity on Pprune exists and the very reason that CHIRP was founded.

As I said before. IF, as you imply you actually do work at Biggin. Maybe you or the SATCO could give us some facts. Namely:

What time was 134.8 stopped on Saturday?

What has been the percentage of 2 frequency operation versus 1 frequency at Biggin over, say, the past year.

And I ask again, am I mistaken in thinking that the CAA are of a similar mind to me regarding two frequency operations at Biggin?

Best wishes,

BH

[Woss goin on..?]

Big Hilly

Agree with your observations.....and I think you will find many more sharing your opinions.

The controllers are fine, the setup sometimes sucks.

[flyingwelshman]

guys guys guys

Look, this is/could be, a serious issue.

It makes intresting reading.

Personally, I am unable to comment.... BUT I dont read these threads to see people bickering, and slagging people/places off. Its not helpful, nor is it intresting.

Please give it a rest, and leave the bandwidth for the intresting, polite, discussions.

FW

[Sir George Cayley]

At Barton an area of apron from in front of the hangars to the fuel pumps was released by the AFISO's so that a/c could start up and taxy between each without radio.

This reduced the amount of radio traffic of a minor nature and unloaded the single Info Freq

Are there parts of the manouvering area at Biggin that could similarly be freed from the requirement to call for taxy? Along with the very sensible suggestion of telephone booking out might this improve the situation.?

BTW Have you noticed on Pprune how people, the subject of critiscm, (real or perceived) always seek to remove the discussion from the public forum?

BTW2 How about [email protected] ?

Sir George Cayley

The air is a navigable ocean that laps at everyones door

[Big Hilly]

those idiots at Manston :confused:

Sorry, have I missed something or did someone delete a post?

BH

[Woss goin on..?]

Yes, I got carried away in your defence and was brought back to earth by WCollins....post edited and hopefully we are now back on track with this thread.

:ouch:

[mad_jock]

The reason why they don't like doing the washing in public on PPrune is because they know fine that in double quick time the CAA ATC inspectors will find out about it.

The ones I have met have all been very pleasant, but I presume being on the end of some searching questions on an inspection isn't. And if they get told they require additional controllers for 2 frequencys it proberly has huge ramifications to staffing and costs.


I wouldn't let them know who you are either or which plane you fly.

MJ

[Timothy]

BH

Unfortunately by your quote, you have perpetuated the comment that I suggested was unhelpful and could be removed.....would you mind following suit? ;)

Mad Jock

Speaking as someone who raised an MOR regarding Alan Mann Avionics and was, not long after, summarily thrown out from the much sought after hangar which I had occupied for 11 years, I can understand the concern.....

but....

Do you really think that you will get 'picked on' by Biggin controllers for raising a flight safety concern? The ones I have met seem too nice and level headed for such pettiness.

If I were them I would be more insulted by this suggestion than I was by the original outburst!

W

[niknak]

Biggin Hill ATC - run by Serco I believe.

Don't blame the atcos, it's not their fault that their employers work on the basis of maximum profit for minimal SRG approved staffing.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[B_AND_S's]

niknak.

Don't blame the atcos, it's not their fault that their employers work on the basis of maximum profit for minimal SRG approved staffing

As far as I can see from all the post's on this thread, no one is blaming the ATCO's, infact quite the opposite. Seems to me that Bigg Hilly is praising the ATCO's and is taking a brave step in highlighting this issue. Wonder if SERCo know what's happening at this unit!

[niknak]

B and S
Perhaps I phrased my comments inappropriatley, I know that the Biggin ATCOs work very hard, and the staffing situation is not of their doing.
My point is that SRG / Serco and the owners of Biggin Hill are very well aware that they need extra ATCO staff and that there should be separate aerodrome and approach frequencies operational at all times, something that they all seem unwilling to do anything about - until such time as a serious incident or worse happens - at which time they will all bury their heads in the sand and blame the coal face workers.

Apologies to the Biggin ATC staff for any misunderstanding.

[CAUTION VORTEX WAKE]

niknak.

My point is that SRG / Serco and the owners of Biggin Hill are very well aware that they need extra ATCO staff and that there should be separate aerodrome and approach frequencies operational at all times, something that they all seem unwilling to do anything about - until such time as a serious incident or worse happens - at which time they will all bury their heads in the sand and blame the coal face workers.

Sounds like you have some inside knowledge of Biggin Hill and or SERCO! Are you saying that the CAA AND SERCO know that Biggin ATCO's are overloaded at times? If this is the case then I think the said ATCO's should strike until the situation has been resolved by either dividing the ATC functions by getting in more staff OR has have previously been mentioned, a strict PPR booking system implemented. It seems which ever way you look at it, they need more staff, unless their rostering system could be changed. I'd hate to be a EGKB ATCO bearing in mind SRG, SERCo and your airport owners are un-willing to change your situation as niknak states.

[Monocock]

BH

It was not you who I was suggesting had registered under a new user name to write your post, it was one of the chaps before you. I am completely agreeable with your concerns and the reaction this thread has received seems to have definitely touched a raw nerve with a few of the people directly involved with the airfield.

[FlyingForFun]

Question from a pilot, about booking out by telephone...

How does this help, exactly? I'm not denying it does, I'm just curious as to how.

I don't often fly in an ATC environment. But in my experience, if I book out over the radio, I call up whenever I'm ready and tell the controller my call-sign and where I'm going.

On the other hand, if I book out by telephone, I call up 5 minutes before I'm ready to leave, tell the controller my call-sign, where I'm going, and when. Then, 5 minutes later, I call up on the radio and tell the controller my call-sign and where I'm going. If anything, it seems to create more work, with the (apparently)rather dubious advantage that you have 5 minutes' notice of my movements. Does that really help?

Anyone care to enlighten me? Flower? Anyone else? Thanks!

FFF
-------------

[Circuit Basher]

Having been used to the Bournemouth system, which is booking out by phone, I know the controllers prefer it. It does actually save time if done properly (ie) Establish contact, say what needs to be said and end contact. Telephone allows duplex ommunication, rather than saying it all, then getting the questions back afterwards and then having to retransmit. Also, with tyro pilots (no offence meant :)), using a telephone tends to mean far less 'ermm.... err..... standby', etc. It also means that to some extent the ATCO can receive the booking out message whilst monitoring the active frequency / circuit / ground movements in the background and keeping his / her eye on the ball.

It certainly reduces the level of radio traffic to permit standard zone / circuit calls to be fitted in.

[---o--O--o---]

Flower we do have ATSA but with all the A/C based at biggin It would literally be a full time job just answering the phone.

WIZPIGBIG, surely then, by employing somebody full time would increase flight safety for all by reducing the ATCO's workload. This should be the priority after all.

[Flash0710]

I'm not moaning. I like Biggin

As a suggesttion why not make the ATIS not only Dep info but also Arr Info

Surely freq time would be reduced if a pilot made his initial call with the Info letter and the QFE Job done then

[drauk]

FFF, booking out by telephone or in person is in use at Elstree. They want (need?) to know your destination, the captain's surname and the number of POB. This information is put on the flight strip. When you are subsequently ready to go you can just ask for airfield information and/or taxi instructions; you don't need to give them this information again, which saves RT time.

On the topic of the main thread, I think it is a sad state of affairs that someone raises these concerns, in a pretty appropriate way (particularly after some additional clarification of the more colourful language in the original post) and is criticized for doing so by people involved. If people don't agree with those safety concerns they can voice their contrary opinions. That is what discussion is all about. And if the CAA do come and read this stuff I'm sure they're smart enough to interpret what they read - they're not going to shoot someone on the basis of the first post.

[SATCO Biggin]

Ok back to the subject......

Firstly lets get a few things straight.

1) CAA SRG carry out an inspection of Biggin ATC every 12 months. The ATC Unit has the appropriate approval to operate issued by them. The matter of controller workload has always been discussed during these inspections. What constitutes a busy traffic situation, however, is purely the opinion of the ATC Inspector not a pre-determined number of aircraft. I have no fears or problems with the content of this thread becoming known to the CAA, I work with them on all ATC matters.

2) Lets not start SERCo bashing, it is not relevant. Although we are SERCo employees the staffing compliment and working rosters are determined locally. 'Head Office' inspect the ATC Unit on a regular basis and this includes any items brought up by SRG.

3) Pre-flight booking out...... this idea has been suggested many times over the years. The ATSA staff employed here are very experienced but are already stretched on busy days. Any telephone method of booking out would require more staff.

4) Total aircraft movements on Saturday were 596 of which 47 occurred between 1700 and 1800 local. Compare that with the some other airfields at their busy times (Shoreham, Oxford and Cranfield come to mind) and I think you will find it is not excessive. The combing of operations onto one frequency would have happened at around 1730 so maybe half that number were affected by single frequency ops.

Moving on.....

I could dig deeper into this matter and start playing back R/T recordings, interviewing staff, examining paper reocrds etc but this would take time and is not really productive when the
perceived problem is wider than just that one Saturday.

As mentioned elsewhere the nature of the traffic flow at Biggin is sometimes predictable but not always so. I have had controllers rostered to work 2 frequencies only to have both of them sit there watching the grass grow for no reason other than people aren't interested in flying that day. Not a very efficient use of manpower really and actually has a negative effect on staff morale.

We have tried various different working roster patterns to attempt a more flexible approach, but these rosters have to fulfil both the aerodrome hours of operation and the legal limitation on
controllers working hours. I do not intend to type out the entire 'Scheme for Limitation of Air Traffic Controllers Hours' here.
If anyone is really interested then CAP670 'Air Traffic Services Safety Requirements' refers.

Due to these hours limitations we get to a stage at 1630 local on weekends when the traffic situation has to be assessed by those on duty and a decision made as to how long we can maintain
two frequencies. Keep them going for too long and one controller will exceed duty hours and another controller gets less than the required rest period. There have been times when the rules on hours have been busted because it was too busy to drop one controller into the poo.

The alternative, which is demanded by the CAA, is to introduce restrictions on traffic flow so that it remains containable on one frequency. This we do, usually by stopping high useage flights like
circuit training. I reserve the right to put in place more draconian measures but do my utmost to avoid this.

On my desk as I type this I have yet another different working roster that I would like to try. It is not a panacea for all ills and will not kill 99% of all known germs, but it might relieve some of
the weekend 'tea time rush' problem. It still needs consultation with staff and CAA before introduction.

I bring to the attention of everyone reading this thread that Biggin has an excellent safety record. This is entirely due to the proffesional attitude of my staff and the understanding and co-operation we receive from the aircrew using the airport, from Student to Proffesional pilot. I would have much preffered to have had a straight conversation on this issue and not to have had to resort to so much typing. Whether intended or not placing threads like this in the public domain does place a slur on the airport and its staff which I consider is not warranted and which I will defend.

Waiting for the return postings.......

SATCO
Biggin Hill

[CAUTION VORTEX WAKE]

TMC.

We have tried various different working roster patterns to attempt a more flexible approach, but these rosters have to fulfil both the aerodrome hours of operation and the legal limitation on

I used to know a controller who worked at Biggin Hill, he always said that the ATCO staff never worked nearly half of what they were legally allowed to. Is this still the same? If it's the same then surely if you were to make the ATCO's work a few more hours (ie what they are actually rostered to do) thus enabling the ability to use 2 frequencys. Perhaps the rostering system has changed since then but this was always the case. I don't really undserstand why the ATCO's wouldn't want there to be 2 freq's in use all the time themselves, it might mean they worked a few more hours a day but would be safer and and would reduce their actuall workload by 50%? Perhaps I'm missing the reason for reluctance to use 2 freq's? :suspect: :ooh: :confused: Who are you Bigg Hilly?

[Big Hilly]

TMC,

Many thanks for taking the time to reply so comprehensively.

I will say this one last time: The controllers at Biggin are a credit to you - utterly superb and professional at all times. In no way was it ever my intention to 'slur' the controllers or Biggin itself, simply to have a frank and OPEN (i.e. not behind closed doors) discussion about something that I, and it would seem, many other people are concerned about. You say that maybe we should have 'had a chat' about my concerns - but frankly, if the CAA are unable to influence this issue, I see little that a 'chat' with me would achieve.

The job of SATCO in any ATC unit is an invidious one - constantly juggling everything in order to keep the ship afloat and I am full of admiration and respect for what you do there. However, to be honest, your post has done little to alleviate my concerns. You say that Total aircraft movements on Saturday . . . . . of which 47 occurred between 1700 and 1800 local. That averages out at one movement every 76 seconds between 17:00 AND 18:00!!!!! Not far that off a major international airport and they have considerably more than one ATCO operating just one frequency! Let us also not forget that the ‘47 movements’ do not include, say, ground vehicle’s having to be controlled or indeed the co-ordination between you and other Radar units e.g. Thames. I will say it again, this is simply unsafe!

Also, and feel free to correct me here, as far as I can gather from your post, the only thing stopping you from operating two frequencies more often is a roster problem – here we come back to the rumours from the bar which I will not bring up here – but surely this can be worked around? As you said you have a new system that may well solve the problem and we can hope to see an improvement sometime soon.

One final point, and please if the Moderators feel this to be ‘stepping over the line’ then please feel free to delete this paragraph:

Wizzybigpiggy, or whatever he was called, if he IS (as he claims to be) part of your operation, then he has single-handedly sullied the good name of Biggin ATC with his un-inarticulate arguments, cheap jibes and offensive tone and I pity the other, excellent controllers who would have to put up with his Neanderthal ways.

Best wishes,

BH

[Timothy]

TMC

I know that you are on the radio a fair bit, but presumably you spend a lot of time pushing paper around your office downstairs.

Would it not be possible for you to cover the doubtful periods sitting downstairs wrapped in red-tape, in a position to mount the wooden hill to the tower if your colleague on watch felt that things were getting a little 'interesting'.

Or is this too simple a perspective on the life of a SATCO :confused:

W

[wizpigbig]

Big Hilly
I apologise unreservedly if any remarks I made have been misconstrued. I was extremely angry yesterday at the apparent slur in your opening posting. Today however is another day. Believe it or not I do think you have a point but I do think you used a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Many apologies again . yours Neanderthal ( non taken)
:O

[Big Hilly]

wizpigbig,

Thank you very much indeed for your gracious apology – absolutely accepted and in return I apologise for the Neanderthal remark! :O
I only hope that we are to find a way forward that is in everyone's best interests. There have been some tremendous posts on this topic, I hope that they continue to come and I thank everyone who has taken the trouble to post for their valuable time.

Best wishes,

BH

[CAUTION VORTEX WAKE]

wizpigbig.

Youre obviously connected to the running of the Biggin Hill ATSU in some way?

If your an ATCO or airport operator or whatever there, surely you would prefer them to use a 2 frequency operation??

WCollins,
I know that you are on the radio a fair bit, but presumably you spend a lot of time pushing paper around your office downstairs.

Typical SATCO then! I know of a few like that!

I'm going down the the pilot's pals bar tomorrow, wonder what the topic of discussion will be?

[SATCO Biggin]

Whether or not my controllers are working their permitted maximum legal hours is not something that is relevant to the situation described. I am also not going to expand on the inner workings of the Biggin ATC Unit on this open forum. There comes a point when these things border on exposing areas of the staffs employment details which is very obviously taboo.

It has long been recognised that there is a weekend 'rush hour' at this airfield and many pilots choose to arrange their flights to arrive/depart at other times. Maybe those who do not like operating at a busy airfield, or are not confident in their ability to cope in these situations should avoid such scenarios. (attending fly ins and the PFA rally also qualify in this respect). The traffic density at Biggin is now lower than at any time in its history
including the years when I suspect Big Hilly was an instructor here. For decades the both pilots and ATC have operated under this 'rush hour' situation with relatively few complaints. It is not desireable but if decades of planning by previous SATCO's and airport management have not come up with the ideal solution then it must be more complicated to resolve than may first appear.

Based operators will be aware that ATC regularly place restictions on flights and turn down requests for circuit training, ILS training etc when it is predictable that overall traffic loading will make these tasks useless to the student and over load ATC. So action is taken on a tactical basis in real time, however, ATC do not wish to be overly obstructive and will run things as quickly as they consider possible. This and other forum often carry threads
on the subject of how obstructive and unhelpul ATC is and how it was so good in the old days when 'un-controlled' airfields had dozens of aircraft operating in the circuit at the same time with no radio at all.

A question for Big Hilly......are you the same person who complained twice to the CAA about the Biggin DATIS? I have always wanted to know who that was.

I wonder why there is such a need for anonimity by Big Hilly to the point of creating a whole new identity for this thread. I also wonder why the thread could not have been entitled 'Biggin Hill - is it too busy' rather than 'accident waiting to happen'.

Personally I would like to trash my identity on this forum (the result of too many wines one evening) and post under my real job title. Moderators... is there any way of replacing an identity without creating a whole new one?

Regards

SATCO Biggin

[Flash0710]

Don't dispair TMC


Panic pilots eh? :rolleyes:

[Big Hilly]

TMC,

Just to clarify a few points:

1. No, I have never instructed at Biggin. The only time that I have been in and out of there for 'work' was when I was flying fast jets for the RAF (even then I only came in a few times as I recall).

2. No, it certainly wasn't me who complained about the DATIS? :confused:

3. As I said, in I think, my second post - No this isn't a 'false' username - it's my first and only one!

4. Why did I choose the title I chose? Well, because my question is not: 'is Biggin too busy?' But, 'is there a situation at Biggin that could be “an accident waiting to happen?”' - They are two completely separate questions – and for the record I don’t think that Biggin is Too busy – it certainly seems a lot quieter than it has been in the past. :sad:

I completely understand your reluctance to discuss confidential staffing issues on here, but I would be interested to hear your honest, personal opinion on the points raised here and your thoughts as to the way forward (obviously within the boundaries of confidentiality).

Flash 0710:
Panic pilots eh?
Thank you for your mature and intelligent contribution to a serious debate on aviation safety. :rolleyes:

BH

[Max AirFactor]

I would question the need for pre-flight booking and glad to here that TMC doesn’t endorse this as a future requirement. Why do Elstree need to know Pilot surname, Pax and shoe size by phone if Biggin can manage over RT to put your details on the right coloured strip and send you on your way? As the ‘customer’ ultimately pays for increased cost, I would rather have the resource directed to the Weekend rush hours. I have the view that it is (or I feel) safer with the two frequencies. We pay through the nose to use Biggin so a full complement of staff is expected.

Having said that, not being able to get a word in edgeways is not unsafe in itself, just more challenging. I was local at said time on Saturday and must have missed the ‘pandemonium’.

My issue with Biggin is the priority give to Business traffic – 15 minutes at the hold because some Fokker was granted go-around practise and landing. Biggin is not so busy though, just another London International Wannabe that Wontbe (another thread another day).

Biggins future is in maintaining a good service (ATC, fair charges, hangerage, etc) to GA. So TMC you are much appreciated – just don’t scare Hilly on the weekend and make the big Fokkers wait in line. ;)

MAF

[Big Hilly]

are you the same person who complained twice to the CAA about the Biggin DATIS? I have always wanted to know who that was.

TMC:

Sorry, but having gone away and thought about it; I’m intrigued! What on earth could someone find to complain to the CAA about the DATIS? :confused: :confused:

Best wishes,

BH

just don’t scare Hilly on the weekend and make the big Fokkers wait in line.

Max,

Big Fokkers have always scared me!!!!!! :D ;)

BH

[Timothy]

Even more so, I would like to know why it's a DATIS?

I always listen to it on the approach before calling 129.4, and Thames (the radar provider) often/usually ask if I have picked up the ATIS, and I rarely if ever hear the weather being read to anyone, so I guess everyone picks up the ATIS.

So, I say again, why is it designated an DATIS and not an ATIS?

W

[PPRuNe Towers]

TMC,

Just click on the 'contact us' button on every page. Pass your details [always wanted to say that:p :p] and the new username you would like - we'll do the rest.

To all: We have huge respect here at the Towers for the Biggin ATCers - especially as they've have been on line and communicating with their customers since before PPRuNe was conceived 8 years ago. Some of you may remember contributions for a long time on the Compuserve Avsup forum. Always appreciated and thoroughly supported by us.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[Big Hilly]

DATIS (Departure Automated Terminal Information Service) as opposed to ATIS means Departure ATIS.

Departure ATIS is used by a/c on the ground to enable a pilot to receive information relevant to departure this is apposed to an ATIS which is for arrival or landing aircraft. A DATIS should NOT be used by aircraft in flight as it will be outside the DOC (Designated Operation Coverage).

Hope that helps.

BH

[Timothy]

To all: We have huge respect here at the Towers for the Biggin ATCers - especially as they've have been on line and communicating with their customers since before PPRuNe was conceived 8 years ago. Some of you may remember contributions for a long time on the Compuserve Avsup forum. Always appreciated and thoroughly supported by us. I would take this further and say that the customer service I receive from KB (ATC, Fuel, Hangarage, Accounts, AIS, Apron) is second to none.

I have even bumped into the Chairman at an awards dinner and he was very keen to discuss how the airport could be more helpful to me as an owner pilot.

I think that it is against this background of a very high level of dedication that you have to see the reaction of Biggin staff to what many of us see as OTT criticism, and TMC's (or whatever he is about to call himself) being rather taken aback that one of his customers doesn't feel that he can just pick up the phone and chat.

BH

Yes, such much I know already, I want to know why is isn't either upgraded or redesignated as an ATIS....everyone uses it as such.

W

[B_AND_S's]

WCollins

think that it is against this background of a very high level of dedication that you have to see the reaction of Biggin staff to what many of us see as OTT criticism, and TMC's (or whatever he is about to call himself) being rather taken aback that one of his customers doesn't feel that he can just pick up the phone and chat.

You say TMC is taken aback that one of his customers doesn't feel that he can just pick up the phone and chat, then despite saying that you go on to ask on this same public forum Yes, such much I know already, I want to know why is isn't either upgraded or redesignated as an ATIS....everyone uses it as such.

Why don't you just pick up the phone and 'chat' about the (D)ATIS yourself?:{

Respect 2 the Biggin bruvs & BT!

BANDS:ok:

Edited to remove an un-professional symbol!!! :D

[Timothy]

B_AND_S's

Good point...hadn't thought of it that way...the irony isn't lost on me (though I have to say that mine isn't a complaint, just a 'wonder')....but I will drop Pete an eMail and ask!

W

[wizpigbig]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
think that it is against this background of a very high level of dedication that you have to see the reaction of Biggin staff to what many of us see as OTT criticism,

Thank you precisely my point:ok:

[B_AND_S's]

WCollins
)....but I will drop Pete an eMail and ask!
Reiterating your very own suggestion, pick up the phone at chat to the manager of the ATSU and speak to him directly. 01959 571111 :bored:

Hello Mum.

[Timothy]

I did, but he was on duty, so I sent him an eMail.

But I don't understand why you think that this is a scary thing to do...Pete is a good guy.

W

[B_AND_S's]

But I don't understand why you think that this is a scary thing to do...Pete is a good guy.

Sorry was that addessed to me? I have no reason to contact 'Pete', thanks anyway. May I repeat yet again, it was you who suggested that the person who started this thread can just pick up the phone and chat to the SATCO, I just reiterated your suggestion when you informed us that you would eMail him with your questions regarding their DATIS!!!

It wasn't me who started the topic.

I quote another of your comments about the Biggin SATCO

I know that you are on the radio a fair bit, but presumably you spend a lot of time pushing paper around your office downstairs.

Therefore why not wait for one of these opportunites when he is 'pushing paper around the office' to 'pick up the phone' bearing in mind you obviously know that there will be the opportunity to do so?:yuk:

[Timothy]

This is getting very silly. I am equally happy to go and see him, phone him or eMail. On this occasion it was most convenient to eMail.

When I mentioned picking up the phone earlier I could have put ...or go and see him, or eMail, or write him a letter, but I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Shall we use the word "communicate directly with" and move on from this?

W

[Flash0710]

Big Hilly

Thank you for your mature and intelligent contribution to a serious debate on aviation safety.

No m8. we are all trained allegedly to deal with it. There are too many who moan about it and also can't

:uhoh:

[Big Hilly]

No m8. we are all trained allegedly to deal with it. There are too many who moan about it and also can't

Thank you for yet another lucid and poignant contribution. :rolleyes:

[IO540]

As a general comment, what may have happened at Biggin Hill isn't unique.

The other day I spent 20 mins orbiting nearby another South East airfield trying to get a word in, then got cleared overhead and orbited another 10 times or so trying to get the clearance to descend, then just as I got it somebody got in at the same time as me and descended (on the deadside) about 200ft underneath me; I decided to depart the ATZ after that, and come back later.

It was on a sunny Sunday, of course :O

More frequencies are the solution but perhaps sometimes they can't get the extra people in on the day.

[SATCO Biggin]

Ye Gods and little fishes...looks like I have got a fan club!

Right....the DATIS....Yep all BH has posted regarding DOC's etc is the way that things run. The reason we can't just upgrade it to an ATIS is because 'The Ministry' says the allocated frequency (121.875) has a DOC relative to a DATIS and is not protected from interference out to ATIS type distances. If we want an ATIS we will need a new frequency and will have to get in the queue with everyone else because of a frequency shortage. Knowing my luck I would end up with one of those 8.33 jobbies that hardly anyone in the GA world can use.

I wont get involved in the pro's and con's of the commercial development of Biggin on this thread but if thats the way the management want to go then my job is to provide the ATC for it. New gadgets for the ATCO's will help the integration of the various traffic types and hopefully reduce the incidence of '15 minute' holds for our customers. Some items like vortex wake separation and totally incompatible approach speeds we will never overcome and have to be built into the operational procedures.

To those of you who have sent me private messages, I will get back to you as soon as workload permits. Currently typing this during a break in operational duty, then I have got a meeting to 'chair' before I can get back to the normal office drudgery this afternoon. (mass violins palying in the background).

Regards

SATCO Biggin

[crackerjack]

Further to the last post, I think Cranfield has the same frequency for its ATIS (121.875)

Perhaps this is the problem as you can pick both transmissions up around north London at vfr altitudes.

As an aside, am I the only person that finds the sunshine being blown up every Biggin ATCer's @rse a little nauseating? Most are excellent but there are others...............

[Coriolis The Crab]

Belay there that man! How dare you cast nastertiums! ALL Bigin Hill airtraffikers are heroes. Except the Manc.

[Big Hilly]

WCollins

As Pete said, The DATIS is a DATIS for very good reasons and I for one would never, ever use it as a ATIS. I disagree with your comment: everyone uses it as such I, and most other pilots I know would NEVER use it for arrival info - important when as at KB; the QNH and the QFE are so different - especially of relevance when IFR in minima on the ILS!!!!!!!

TMC

You didn't say; What could someone find to complain to the CAA about the DATIS - If you don't want to post it on here then fine, PM me - just curious?

Also, thanks to all for the PM's - thought at first that I was going mad in my old age. . . . ;) :D

BH

[Timothy]

BH

1) Most operators land QNH
2) QNH is calculated from QFE anyway (you don't drill a 650' hole at KB and measure the pressure at the bottom.

If you can hear the DATIS (and are sure that it is the KB DATIS) why not use the information, rather than waste the very air time that started all this by asking for the weather and runway unnecessarily?

W

[Circuit Basher]

QNH is calculated from QFE anyway
WCollins - ahh, but is that using the saturated or unsaturated ALR?? (just to open up a divergent thread direction!!) ;) ;)

[FlyingForFun]

Met never was my favourite subject... but the last time I checked, the lapse rate doesn't have any effect on pressure settings. :confused:

QNH is calculated by taking the QFE, and then assuming ISO temperatures (and therefore ISO pressure drops with altitude).

There is another pressure setting, whose Q-code I've forgotten, which is the QFE reduced to sea level using the actual temperature, instead of the ISO temperature. This is the one which is shown on surface pressure charts, but it's not very much use to us apart from that. But I don't think lapse rates come into it at all.

I'm completely confused as to how this has anything to do with Biggin Hill, though - not just a tangent, a completely random change of subject!

FFF
----------------

[B_AND_S's]

WCollins

1) Most operators land QNH

No, it's not MOST operators who use QFE for landing, it's SOME. However ATC have to provide the QFE unless it is known that a particular operator uses the QFE.

2) QNH is calculated from QFE anyway (you don't drill a 650' hole at KB and measure the pressure at the bottom.

Most places with a precsion IAP such as Biggin Hill as (at least) two QFE values which sometimes have marked differences. I can imagine the cahos if they put both QFE's on the DATIS.....since they have large amounts of mixed purpose flying (ie PPL(A) & (H) training, IMC training and of course all the coperate jet traffic) there's a high possibility that pilots would be setting the QFE for the wrong runway, fine if Joe in his C152 is looking out the window and won't bump into any obstructions etc but it would be hell if the ATCO is providing vertical (height) seperaton between 2 aircraft who unknowingly have set different QFE values.

Where did you get your KB 650ft from?

If you can hear the DATIS (and are sure that it is the KB DATIS) why not use the information, rather than waste the very air time that started all this by asking for the weather and runway unnecessarily?

For the simple fact that aren't allowed to (some legal reason anyway) to use the information provided by a station outside it's DOC. If your listening to a DATIS in the air then what you are doing is automatically outside it's DOC. And anyway, at some stage you have still got to read back which ever QFE and runway ATC want you to use.

I'm sure the Biggin Hill SATCO can add some additional info on the subject......

[Big Hilly]

B_and_d's

Thank you, I couldn't have put it better myself.

WCollins

Could I just add to what B_and_d's has said by saying, that also; don't forget, it is not uncommon at Biggin For two runways to be used at once, certainly for Rotor / F/W separation but also for other traffic.

WCollins, I say this with the greatest respect and it is said in the true spirit of CRM; but, maybe have a chat with your instructor at your next sim check or check ride and ask him/her to go over this subject with you?

Anyway, as FFF said this is detracting from the main thread so enough said.

Edited Due Spolling Mistooke

[niknak]

Sorry, what was the original question.................?:p

[Circuit Basher]

NikNak - thread divergence is far more fun!! ;)

FFF - I bow to your superior knowledge, but felt that the air temperature would affect QFE based on a particular QNH, thus depends on what temperature lapse rate you use to derive the QNH from a measured QFE at a particular field. Finding it difficult to articulate this as I keep getting stuck in iterative loops that seem to finish at my own 6 o clock!

Are we talking African or European swallows?? [non-supporters of Monty Python and the Holy Grail should look away now!!]

[Red Four]

In my experience, the QNH is not calculated from the QFE, and the QFE is not calculated from the QNH: both are calculated from the reading on the barometer.
According to the relationship between the barometer's level and sea level/aerodrome level, the QNH and relevant QFE's are then calculated.

[Keef]

B and S - I don't think you read correctly what WCollins wrote. He said "Most operators land QNH", which I think is true. That's what I was taught to do on my IR (albeit only an FAA one) and what all the ATPLs I know claim to do. It's easier, too, in my experience.

You said "No, it's not MOST operators who use QFE for landing, it's SOME." I think that's close to what WCollins said, innit? The choice is QFE or QNH, yes?

BH - I'm another who listens to DATIS to hear what's going on before I call for join. If I can clearly copy KB DATIS and the details, I'll write them down before I call ATC. If/when ATC give them, I can check what I wrote before I read back clearance and QFE/QNH (which I have to do anyway). Is there something wrong with that?
Does suggesting it entitle you to tell an ATPL/IR to go talk to his instructor?

I've found whenever I've been to Biggin that the QNH and QFE have a similar relationship. It's almost as if they compute both from some common source and add or subtract a constant. I've invariably found that the QFE has my altimeter reading within a few feet of zero at touchdown, so I have my suspicions about how this is done.

[vintage ATCO]

Donkey's years ago, when we had a Kew pattern barometer at Luton (with real mercury in it) one would read the barometer AND the temp of the thermometer attached to it (not the outside air temp) and then compute the QFE and QNH from correction tables supplied by the Met. Office taking into account the instrument temperature. Using this method, the QFE/QNH were usually 19 mbs apart (elev. 525ft), sometimes 18 mbs and rarely 20 mbs. One was not computed from t'other.

Now we use a Vaisala digital barometer with read outs for QFE and QNH and I think they are always 19 mbs apart, but then we so rarely look at QFE as so few people use it.

The Q code for the reading taking into account actual air temp is QFF.

VA

[mad_jock]

What I can't understand is why ATC keep on telling you changes on the QFE when you VFR and have already called finals.

I can tell you now i am not going to fanny around fiddeling about with knobs when I am flying an approach and can see the runway anyway.

I have had some **** hasseling me for a read back while in the flare which i ignored and ask for my taxi clearance once the wheels were on the deck.

Unfortunatly the cuts have meant the new trainees don't have a clue what we are doing

MJ

[Timothy]

Keef

Thanks for leaping to my defence, but I have actually decided not to bother with those two muppets* any more.

Like others, I have come to the conclusion that they have merely subbed to cause trouble on this particular thread, they certainly don't bring any useful, informative or knowledgeable information or experience with them and they can play their games with someone else as far as I am concerned! ;)

W

* or one muppet with two handles, who can tell?

[Big Hilly]

Ok, it’s been a long night and I’m tired and want to go to bed so let’s get this over with.

Keef:

I’m surprised at a statement like: ‘Does suggesting it entitle you to tell an ATPL/IR to go talk to his instructor?’ coming from someone as experienced as you. Far too many accidents have been caused over the years by someone not speaking out – you know the scenario – “Excuse me Captain but you're lined up on the wrong runway” – “How dare you tell me what to do, you young whippersnapper! Don’t you know I’ve got a ATPL with an IR?”

Wcollins was suggesting that he USED the DATIS as an ATIS, he seemed confused as to the role of a DATIS in one of his earlier posts and I merely suggested that he talks to someone about this subject as it is obviously bothering him – this is not a personal attack on him – merely some free advice from someone probably older and wiser. I will not respond to his personal attack on me – let’s just see if he has the maturity to apologise as graciously as wizpigbig?

I will not comment on this matter any further. But I should have some highly pertinent information coming my way regarding the original subject of this post in the next few days. So hopefully the discussion can get back on track.

[Keef]

BH - thanks for the lesson in adding one and one and getting a large number.

[t'aint natural]

This "accident waiting to happen" stuff is a bit melodramatic. Leave it to the tabloid newspapers.
Why should a congested frequency lead to aircraft plunging out of the sky in an orange ball, threatening millions on the ground, pray?
Lordy, how would it be if it was a unicom, or no ATC at all! We'd all lose the ability to fly.

[bookworm]

I’m surprised at a statement like: ‘Does suggesting it entitle you to tell an ATPL/IR to go talk to his instructor?’ coming from someone as experienced as you. Far too many accidents have been caused over the years by someone not speaking out – you know the scenario – “Excuse me Captain but you're lined up on the wrong runway” – “How dare you tell me what to do, you young whippersnapper! Don’t you know I’ve got a ATPL with an IR?”

I think the issue is that the correct response is "Excuse me Captain but you're lined up on the wrong runway” not "Excuse me Captain but I think you should go and talk to the chief pilot about runway recognition". If you have a point to make about D-ATIS, make it for us all to read, perhaps by answering WCollins's question.

[Timothy]

bookworm

I don't think you will get much joy.

As I understand things these people(/this person) are saying that you cannot use DATIS as ATIS because of QFE issues, whereas you and I know (both as experienced IR pilots and readers of MATS) that ATIS doesn't include QFE.

They are out of their depth...leave them be.

W

[B_AND_S's]

As I understand things these people(/this person) are saying that you cannot use DATIS as ATIS because of QFE issues, whereas you and I know (both as experienced IR pilots and readers of MATS) that ATIS doesn't include QFE.

These people who you refer to are the regulating body of ATC, these people work for the Air Traffic Services Standards department (ATSSD)at the civil aviation authority (CAA). It is them who declare an ATIS an ATIS and a DATIS a DATIS, it is the radio communications agency (RA) who delcare DOC's and who say that pilots must not use the said frequencys outside of their DOC's but of course as experienced IR pilot's and readers of MATS (which part, I do not know) you would know all about this.

You will of course know that Shoreham, London City, Northolt, Farnborough to name a few include the QFE on their ATIS's but again you will know this becuase you are

(both experienced IR pilots and readers of MATS)

Rgds.:yuk:

[Keef]

Couple of points.

1. I hear the broadcast clearly state "Biggin Hill...". Why should I not write that down to save time on a busy approach frequency? I'm going to have to read it back anyway, so can save one iteration. If I get it wrong, the controller will tell me.

2. QFE may (or may not) be included in the ATIS broadcast. Whether or not it is, as you will know from your reading of MATS Part 1 3.2.7 the Controller is required to give the QFE or QNH before commencement of an approach. Have you *ever* made an approach without the Controller giving you QNH or QFE? I can't say I ever have, and if I didn't get it I'd for sure ask for it.

[Timothy]

Keef

In MATS Pt1 Chapter 12 Para 5.3 (which refer to para 2.2) QFE is not referred to at all. Also the sample ATIS in para 5.4 does not include it.

There are references to "other routine information useful to pilots using the aerodrome" which presumably could include QFE, but is certainly not a requirement nor the norm.

Anyway, if people want to block the frequency asking for weather reports rather than use the DATIS they can certainly justify doing so by refering to DOCs, and they should certainly do so if they cannot positively identify the DATIS as being the correct one. If nothing else, it would mean that two-frequency operation is needed more often!

What I haven't seen is any justification for not using it when it is quite clear and audible, especially, as you say, when pressure settings and runway are confirmed by ATC anyway.

What I do find interesting is that listening to Thames and Biggin Approach, you rarely hear the weather being read out, which implies that incoming pilots are either not getting the weather (an IFR requirement) or they are using DATIS as an ATIS as a matter of course, which was the origin of my original comment.

W

[Keef]

WCollins - you're using a different edition of MATS Pt 1 to the one I have here, so my chapter references are different.

The expression "QFE" appears nowhere in the chapters about ATIS. It does appear in the list of what is normally included in a METAR, and in the information to be provided by ATC to arriving aircraft.

Mind you, QFE isn't in the list for FAA ATIS either :}

[Timothy]

Keef

SORRY...my chapter reference was to CAP413, which I also had open :)

W

[foghorn]

I find it interesting that the Biggin DATIS is broadcast with such power that it can be heard clearly from Clacton. Given that the powers that be won't give it a DOC that allows it to be used anywhere other than on the airport maneuvering area, has Biggin considered turning the power down to save juice? Or is this not possible on Biggin's transmitter? Or is it even needed for those a/c who live in the shadow of Singh's hangars?

[Keef]

I've worked well over 1,000 km on VHF with 5 watts (when there's ducting or sporadic-e).

I would suspect the Biggin DATIS is a pretty standard device, probably with somewhere between 500mW and 5 watts output, which it would need to cover the whole of the field at ground level.

Once that's in place, the normal rules of VHF radio horizon apply. 4/3 root h (in feet) equals radio horizon (in miles). If you're at 2000 feet over Clacton, you'll hear it.

[Big Hilly]

Blimey, what a Dog-Fight!!!!

Big Hilly goes away for a few days taking people who trust a 'Muppet' ;) to drive them to their holiday destination and all hell breaks out in his absence!

OK, I'm away; taking poor, unsuspecting pax on a mystery tour to the land of "MATS Pt1 Chapter 12 Para 5.3 (which refer to para 2.2)" and Kermit the Frog for the next few weeks but I will be back on the 31st. The info that I thought would be forthcoming has arrived and I can précis it into one sentence, but I think it best to wait until the 31st (just incase my multi-personality-disorder causes me to make alternate postings in the meantime) ;) – Make note to discuss problem with M.O.!

Oh, and one final thing:

The ‘so called’ journalists who have apparently been attempting to contact me at Biggin:
F*ck off! I may speak out amongst my peers but Hell will freeze over before I speak to scum like you!

Best wishes, as ever,

BH

[B_AND_S's]

Big Hilly.

You're like waiting for a bus, the time comes and it's always late.

I'm sure we are all looking forward to reading your ''info'' on your return.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The slagging should stop right away. Keep your views calm and direct them at the real question.

I operated aircraft at Biggin for many many years. The SATCO has been there for many of those years too. He is the complete professional and so are his staff.

If there is a problem as you see it, without getting ratty, I suggest you tackle it through SATCO. If management are at fault deal with them. If it is essential to open the second frequency MAKE them do it. If SATCO feels he should he would I am certain.

Biggin is a busy place and I can vouch for the stupidity that ATC have to put up with from idiots who have not learned the ways of RT, or who cannot resist asking daft questions just to transmit.

Keep it cool people's.

[gingernut]

Just an observation on the postings.

For anyone who is interested, I work for the health service. Part of my remit is to foster a culture of learning from others mistakes, and identifying snags in the system, which may potentially jeopardize patient care.

I'm hoping that people will, in the future, feel free to identify and report potential dangers in the system which may be preventable in the future.

Traditionally in the health service, we have been pretty poor at doing this. It used to be, what the consultant say's, goes, whether he was actually right or wrong.

We decided to draw some lessons from the aviation industry, where, according to those in the know, a "blame free" culture exists, in which people can feel free to identify and report problems, without fear of reprisal, for the "greater good," ie passenger safety.

I believe this system resulted from incidents which occured, as a result of people feeling that they could not question the system, or those in position of authority within the system. (I seem to remember about a trident crash in the 70's where the co-pilot didn't feel able to question the very experienced captain, and the crash in the midlands where everyone seemed to know about the wrong engine being switched off, but again felt unable to question the man at the top.)

We, the NHS, were so impressed by your culture of openess, we decided to spend time with you,the aviation industry, and the head of our organisation, spent some time with BA, finding out more about the non blame culture which exists.

We are so impressed, that we spend time and energy, "preaching the message" to others in the NHS...question the system, if you are doubting patient safety.

Is the message which is coming across from this thread, an accurate reflection of the true picture in the aviation industry? I would appreciate your comments.

[gingernut]

I only asked !

Does look a bit of a crap question with hindsight !

[slim_slag]

Well gingernut, there have been a few threads recently talking about a private pilot making an honest mistake in UK airspace. People were baying for blood, especially the "professionals". But if an ATP turns up to work pissed, the apologists come out in force.

If you want to look elsewhere, see how they do it in the States http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/ where all pilots are treated equally in access to airspace, and also access to a system where they try to learn from all our mistakes instead of trying to find blame. It looks like the UK is going that way with the On Track program, it is still a bit behind the times but definitely a step in the right direction, and the people running it should be congratulated.

I remember our 'death and complications' meetings from back in the 70s/80s. Fascinating stuff, doctors can be very open with their mistakes too, but only with each other. Don't expect an apology to slip outside the group.

[gingernut]

Cheers, will take a look !

[Big Hilly]

Well, Big Hilly is back from his travels and crikey, the crew room at Heathrow was buzzing with this and other news from Biggin!

I know that I said that I would post some info upon my return, however, due to a recent incident in the Tower at Biggin last week and the current investigation surrounding the said incident I will not post anything for the moment. There have been rather too many "punch-ups" for the time being. . . .

[Kirstey]

Wondered if that little fracas would find it's way onto this thread!! I sense an interesting inspection coming up!

[DBChopper]

Am I the only one intrigued to know what the "fracas" was?

Well, I had to ask...

[Big Hilly]

In fairness, I think it best that we give SATCO Biggin the oportunity to make the first comment on this.

BH

[robmac]

Here we go with a first post, as a GA pilot operating my own A/C in SE Asia (for fun no less !) I am on the end of some striking ATC from the likes of Jakarta Approach as "Traffic, six o'clock, passing your level, its an Airbus....."

One of you was probably flying it, I hope your collision avoidance was working...

Point is that it is somewhat dissapointing to see;

a. Fairly aggressive comms, from a controller, thought you guys were supposed to be calm and cool dudes..

b. Someone has to hide to make a simple safety point..

Maybe Jakarta ATC is not too bad after all.

Rob

[Big Hilly]

...and why on earth would he want to do that?

Umm, let me think. . . . . :rolleyes:

[BRL]

Chaps, If there is some kind of investigation thing ongoing I wouldn't mind if you kept things to yourself for the time being.
Thanks. Brl.

[Big Hilly]

Sound words indeed BRL. I understand that the investigation is now over though.

Best wishes,

BH

[BRL]

Thanks for the heads-up there BH.

Does anyone know if the outcome of the investigation is in the public domain yet?????

[Kirstey]

Suffice to say Big Hilly, it seems the root causes of your very first post (not the post itself!!), have led to the incident and investigation..Not everyone here is one happy "Family"

BRL - not sure if the investigation is public, but the CAA is rubbing it's hands I'll bet!

[CSX001]

BRL

Since most of us have no clue what the investigation related to, it is a moot point whether or not the findings are in the public domain.

If some kind soul would like to let us in on this juicy tidbit, that would be very nice. If it is to remain private, that is nice too. Prattling on about it in conspiratorial whispers doesn't really help anybody BH, now does it?

Charlie.

[Big Hilly]

Prattling on about it in conspiratorial whispers doesn't really help anybody BH, now does it?

I appreciate what you are saying but as I said earlier, I thought it best to give Biggin SATCO the opportunity to have the first word on this. He's obviously - probably, quite rightly - decided not to comment but I shall give it a little longer before I say anything on here just incase he hasn't seen this.

Kirstey,

True indeed!

[FlyingForFun]

I thought it best to give Biggin SATCO the opportunity to have the first word on this. He's obviously... decided not to commentOr maybe he just hasn't been on-line in the 24 hours or so since you posted that? :D

FFF
-----------

[BRL]

Since most of us have no clue what the investigation related to, it is a moot point whether or not the findings are in the public domain.
If someone does reply here to what happened and names names, so to speak, and the names are not made public/in the public domain/media etc, then I am pretty sure there will be some kind of legal issue involved.

If I am wrong then so be it, I will repost saying so but if I am not then all I am trying to do here is safeguard this site a.l.a. friends-reunited comes to mind.

I am sure the Flying Lawyer will come along soon and put me right on this. Until then, please bear in mind the consequences.
Thanks,
Brl.

[Kentish Lad]

Is it true that Biggin's gone back to one frequency?

[shuttle1tango]

Big Hilly where are you now :oh:

[we_never_change]

From the Bizjets area:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148109

Are Biggin short of Controllers hence early closing hours, single frequency use (uncomfirmed)

WNC

[You what?]

shuttle1tango

Resurrecting this thread (which all done and dusted before you registered using your current name on PPRUNE) and creating your other thread about Biggin Hill leads me to belive you are trying to create trouble.

This rings a bell :ouch:

[Big Hilly]

Big Hilly where are you now Here!

Yes, Biggin does appear to have gone back to one frequency but as I understand it, it is a temporary situation over the winter months due to staff shortages which, according to rumours (and it does have to be said that Biggin SATCO has warned me before about listening to rumours) they are trying to rectify - not quite sure how - that's just 'the word on the field'. Don't know about it closing earlier or anything about the Qatar deal mentioned on the other thread but, in fairness, I haven't heard anything about either of these things.

Staff shortages are, whether we like it or not, an inevitable fact of life, it would appear, however, in their defence, that it is something that Biggin ATC seem to be attempting to address. . . .

BH

[AlanM]

BH

I believe that there are at least 2 ATCO's in training at the moment. Not sure when they are expected on line though.

Interested to know HOW "out of hours" the GLEX's want! :)

(and with that many comma's in one sentance, one may think you have a link with the judiciary!!!)

[Big Hilly]

(and with that many comma's in one sentance, one may think you have a link with the judiciary!!!) Sorry about that Alan but that sentence (if you're going to be a grammar pedant, at least do the job properly ;) ) was written at the end of a very long day of flying poor, unsuspecting holidaymakers to and from foreign climes and the poor old, Big Hilly brain wasn't working.

Nonetheless, glad to hear that plans are afoot for more ATCOs there. I flew there, I think, last week or the week before; nice sunny day, busy as hell, number 7 to land, downwind extended to Finland and boy was the controller working her socks off on the one frequency.

BH

[AlanM]

Glad things are turning around there!

(oh and Sentance and judiciary were linked!! :)) get it?!?!?!?!?!? tee hee


Best Wishes,
Humour Pedant

(good to see that the ladies are wearing socks now)

[Big Hilly]

AlanM,
get it?!?!?!?!?!? tee hee No! Because in either context, it's still spelt with an e.:8

But we digress. . . . Let's talk about the ladies' socks - much more fun Oops, did I say that out loud!? :D ;)

BH

[AlanM]

OK OK

Who added SENTANCE to my spell checker?!

Agghhhh..... socks........ someone is going to get in trouble!

[Big Hilly]

AlanM,

Now, that was funny!!! :ok: Top Man!

BH

[AlanM]

It gets worse.....

It allows:

Sentunce
Sentunts
Sentents
Sendtans

we are all doomed...... :mad:

[SATCO Biggin]

OK time for a reality check.


There is a countrywide lack of suitably qualified ATCOs for us to employ. That combined with staff sickness has left us with less than the number of ATCOs we need to run the unit. We are training 3 people at the moment.

Staff shortages are not uncommon in ATC and I certainly know of other units where the airport operation has been affected this way. The reason why this thread has been resurrected and another started elsewhere is purely revenge on behalf of one individual. (but that really speaks a million words about that individual doesn't it)

[ShyTorque]

SATCO,

Don't get mad, get even..... next time he calls for taxi, (if he can get a word in :p ) put him on permanent "standby" :E

[Kentish Lad]

Cripes Big Hilly is this you and SATCO Biggin in agreement over this for once or are you just getting soft in your old age? :O

John

[Skyscrapper]

ShyTorque

Don't get mad, get even..... next time he calls for taxi, (if he can get a word in ) put him on permanent "standby"
hmmmm, that would work if he was a Pilot ....

Somehow I don't think he is ....

Hey shuttle1twato, have this :ouch:.

Keep up the good work SATCO B!!:ok:

[Big Hilly]

Kentish,

Ha! Nah, me old chum, not getting soft – perish the thought – it’s just that in fairness to SATCO, the original problem was one that resolved itself and after which he (SATCO) went to great lengths to facilitate a two-frequency service. As he said, they appear to be training up new people and there is a national shortage of ATCOs. That coupled with general staff shortages (anyone flying out of Heathrow this last weekend will have experienced delays due to lack of ground staff – it can happen even at the biggest airports) means that he is in an impossible position.

I feel that I should, perhaps, say publicly on here that despite he and I not having seen ‘eye to eye’ on this problem in the past, his and indeed the entire team at Biggin’s hard work at rectifying the problem has been very much appreciated by myself and also by many others on the field.

ShyTorque,

I suspect that shuttle1tango is not a pilot but a ghost from the past exacting petty revenge.

BH

[SATCO Biggin]

Mr Hilly,

Thanks for the kind comments. My staff are doing all they can to continue with 'service as normal' but to achieve this I have had to call upon their good nature and willingness to help far too much just recently. I am hoping that things will start improving in a week or so. :ok:

[Andy_R]

Maybe they should think about taking on older people who would love to do the job but are unable to do so as a mid-life career change is clearly not viewed as acceptable by NATS?

[Chilli Monster]

Cloud 69 - you'll have to explain yourself better:

What's NATS got to do with it? (Biggin emply their own ATCO's - they're a non-NATS unit).

[SATCO Biggin]

Maybe they should think about taking on older people who would love to do the job but are unable to do so as a mid-life career change is clearly not viewed as acceptable by NATS?

We do not operate an 'ageist' policy here, and I will consider anyone with ADI and APP ratings. A proven track record in a busy and hostile environment would also be an advantage. :uhoh:

The market place is pretty much empty of suitably experienced candidates of any age at the moment. In the meantime I am trying out a policy with youngsters and local selection/training. The results so far are encouraging.

:D

[Skyscrapper]

In the meantime I am trying out a policy with youngsters and local selection/training. The results so far are encouraging.

:O

[SATCO Biggin]

Now what makes you think I am talking about you young Skyscrapper !:ooh:

If you think the course is hard work just wait until we get our hands on you for your ULE.

:ok:

[AlanM]

Seriously - the trainees I have talked to at BIG seem full of energy and ready to learn and listen.

Well done them, their mentors and the selection process!

[Skyscrapper]

AlanM

Seriously - the trainees I have talked to at BIG seem full of energy and ready to learn and listen.

That's because we think you are brill AlanM!!!

SATCO Biggin
Now what makes you think I am talking about you young Skyscrapper! If you think the course is hard work just wait until we get our hands on you for your ULE.


B&S!!!!!!
:uhoh: :{

[AlanM]

That's because we think you are brill AlanM!!!

Sad misguided fool!!! You haven't been yapping to them chicks have ya....?

[Andy_R]

We do not operate an 'ageist' policy here, and I will consider anyone with ADI and APP ratings. A proven track record in a busy and hostile environment would also be an advantage.

Fair enough.

I hadn't realised Biggin was not part of NATS, so my apologies for that.