Age 60 rule status?

[Flying Guy]

Supposedly, the US congress is again considering the age 60 rule. Anybody know what the current status is?

[Flytdeck]

It was voted down in Congress 52-44 (or 46, can't remember, getting too old....) Age 60 max stays.
ALPA had petitioned AGAINST any change to the maximum age.

[Intruder]

There were 2 independent bills, one in the Senate and one in the House. While defeat of the Senate bill makes it more difficult to pass any such bill, there is still a thread of hope whilr the House bill is still alive.

[A-V-8R]

Yea, a thread of hope it won't go thru....

[Flying Guy]

ALPA does it again with lies and disinformation. What ever happened to intregrity?

ALPA's position on age 60 has NOTHING to do with safety - purely economics and young bucks wanting to upgrade faster. As airline salaries get lower, ALPA will change it's tune because the senior guys will need more time to put together their retirement.

Sour grapes? You bet.

[A-V-8R]

The day I got my ATR in 1973 I knew when my retirement would be.

I never lived beyond my means. Have never owned a new car, live in a small house bought as a foreclosure from the bank.

Very few people have a retirement package like mine.

At age 53 I have 13 years with a Commuter Airline with no retirement and 19 years in with a major air carrier. 5 years of that on a killer B scale and 5 years on a Employee Owned Stock Ownership Program that was liquidated in bankruptcy.

Still, in retirement I should be comfortable. I save what I can, and have it deducted from my pay before I ever see it.

At my carrier it was identified that 1200 pilots would be eligible to return to work. That means every wide body pilot would lose his job and bump back to lesser equipment.

We used to have 10,300 pilots, now we are down to 7700 and we are furlouging 60 a month indefinately. I see at us leveling out at about 6000 as flying is transferred to the RJ's and the Star Alliance.

Sorry, Age 60 retirement is what you bargained for when you took the airline job. Working to age 66, as proposed in the Inofee bill just scares the living daylight out of me. After being gone for 15 days a month for 32 years, two divorces because I was not "able to meet her needs because I was never home" I really planned on retiring at age 60 to enjoy my life and my grandchildren.

Just give up the Mercedes and the Captain's house when you are a First Officer and save instead. And have fun in your retirement.

[Flying Guy]

My hat's off to you Sir for your sacrifice and planning. I have owned several new cars and a new house in the past.

When I got my own ATP, also in 1973 (we called it an "ATR" back in those days) I honestly never even considered that I would EVER have to retire. Life seems endless when you are young. In the later years the age sixty rule seems so foolish that I was sure it would be repealed before I hit the deadline. Now it has arrived.

With all respect for your position in this matter I maintain that a pilot who is mentally and physically fit should not be forced to retire at age sixty. I make the obvious suggestion to those that want to retire at sixty, or fifty five, or any other age to do so. Just don't force retirement on myself and others who love to fly big jet airplanes, who are good and conscientious pilots, and who have great experience.

It is especially irksome that those who proclaim self described deteriorating health and mental acumen do so for economic reasons - to the detriment for the rest of us who want to keep flying. That is selfish.

My career parallels yours with companies out of business, bounced pay checks, and furloughs. I currently fly for a small, one airplane company, teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. I make less than an accountant to fly the world's biggest commercial airliner. Strangely enough, I want to have the right to keep doing it.

Well, raving about it here won't make any difference. Life often isn't fair.

[Cmdr Airwolf]

ALPA should have no saying in this matter at all.
This discriminatory law should be abolished forthwith.
If ALPA members wants to retire at age
60 or at any age before that, they are
certainly free to do so.
After all, the Greyhound bus drivers union
doesn't dictate the age limit for holding
the operating licens required.
The debate in the senate the other day
was in deed very short and lame.
It gave the impression that a bunch of
greedy pilots wanted to squezze as much
as possible out of a crippled industry that
is far from the truth. How many pilots
haven't lost their retirement allready and
in need of work to simply survive, never
mind the fancy cars!!!
but of course, this is considered to be our
own fault and not that of incompetent
and greedy "management".
How about an age limit for executives.
That would give them only so much time
to mess up.

[jakethemuss]

What about no age limit, but once over 60 you go to the bottom of the First Officers seniority list.

If you love flying soooo much then that should take care of the urge.

Or the bottom of the Captains list.

It is the selfishness of the over 60's in their attitude to that's mine and you're not going to get it, that pisses people off. I have always heard "one day son, this will all be yours". Only problem, the people who said it have now ensured it is further away by going past their normal retirement date.

Sure, go past 60, but go to the bottom. I'd be interested to see how many of our over 60's would be there if that was the case.

[Flying Guy]

Is there a reason for demoting someone to the bottom of the list at age sixty? What an idiotic suggestion.

[411A]

How about the middle ground?

Lets say for example, the senior Captain retires at his carrier at age sixty (mandatory retirement in the ALPO contract, and no chance to 'rehire' on the bottom of the list) then, due to a change in the present regulation, has the opportunity to move to another carrier (perhaps a start-up) where his experience and knowledge would be benefical.

Under the present regulations, this is not possible.

Could use a few like this...shortly.

[beamer]

Oh for God's sake.

Get to 60, leave the business and get a life for a few years before the grim reaper comes calling...........................

[LOKE]

“Get to 60, leave the business and get a life for a few years before the grim reaper comes calling...........................”

I am curious why you feel that you or anyone else should decide, based on your appraisal of your own particular situation, someone else’s employment destiny? If you are tired of hotels and check rides – retire – it’s your option. Why do you feel it necessary to single out pilots as a profession to force into early retirement when there may well be other pilots who still enjoy flying and because of that do not need to “get a life?”

Doctors, Lawyers, the politicians that perpetuate this charade of justice, are not similarly chastised. They can keep on cutting people open, and making decisions that have profound impact on our lives, yet they are not even scrutinized through routine check rides and physical exams.

To the argument that pilots knew what they were getting into when they where hired, so now why should they bitch – this is curiously similar to racial prejudice. Why should the blacks have complained about not having equal opportunity? They should have seen it when they were young – and just kept there mouths shut and endured. Fortunately they did not and another injustice in our society has begun to crumble – just as this clear case of age discrimination will.

LL

[Bigscotdaddy]

Extremely well put loke!

What the young blades in the industry tend too forget is that not every Captain has 40 years under his belt and a 'fat pension' waiting at 60!

Many have come into the job later in life due to not having the benefit of sponsership, or a military background, having to pay their way through the system by working at other professions until they finally get to their goal.

Are you guys saying that once you reach the age of 60, regardless of how many years you've been flying, should step aside for some younger person who may have the potential of many more years pensionable service than you?

And who says 60 is the age where people become dispensible?

I have a colleague of that age, who has successfully challenged the 60 retirement policy. He is extremely fit, very experienced, and considerably more competent than many of his younger colleagues.

He simply does not think he should be sitting at home when he can be doing what he loves and is best at!

Good for him!

I realise this is mainly an American forum, but it's a common problem to us all.

Jiust remember you young moaners out there - one of the only certain things in life is that you'll eventually get older!

[borg]

The other day I helped a little old lady down the stairs on arrival at our destination. She looked at me and said "This too will happen to you one day" For those of us fortuneate enough it will.

Remember boys if you want the Chiefs to move along quietly be prepared to be shoehorned yourself say in 20-30 + years.

One of my skippers once told me when he just starting out there was no way he yas going to fly past 55, now that he is 64 well, umm.....things have changed.

Beware.

[jakethemuss]

The thing is, I like you joined this industry knowing I would be retired at 60. I therefore know where the goalposts are and plan my life accordingly.

You, however, by staying past age 60 now move my goalposts because the Command salary that enables me to make my plans is now delayed due to you not retiring. I now have to go past 60 to have the same planned retirement. I don't want to do that, I want to retire. You affect all pilots who wish to retire at age 60 if you continue.

I wasn't surprised you wouldn't be impressed about going to the bottom of the F/O list, but that Command now goes to someone like me who is planning to retire at age 60. If you go to the bottom of the Captains list you still delay the promotion. If you do it for the love of flying then an F/O seat is still flying. If you are just doing it for the money well...............

p.s. to compare the age 60 rule to the struggle of the coloured people of America is a disgrace and shows how ridiculous you really are.

[Ready]

How about, going from let's say 80 hours a month to 40 hours a month when one hits 60 years of age, with mandatory retirement at 65.
Half the wage, half everything so to speak. Kind of semi-retirement, you see my point? With every 2 old timers going into semi-retirement, that leaves room for one upgrade and one new hiree off the street. Better than nothing at all.
That's what I'd like to do anyway.
Cheers!

[Flying Guy]

First, I would like to say thanks to the way the negative replies have been written on this subject. Although the writers disagree with my viewpoint, all sincerely promote the writer's point of view. I have been involved in discussions like these in the past in PPRUNE and some people get really nasty with taunts and insults.

I would like to respectfully point out that all who support age 60 retirement give reasons having to do with promotions, economics, and personal planning.

Not one person so far has listed the specific reasons the FAA and ALPA say we should retire early - increased risk of sudden incapacitation and deteriorating mental ability.

It would appear we all agree that those are not the REAL reasons to force us to retire at age 60!

Isn't that interesting! :-)

[G.Khan]

Jakethemuss - When I and many others got our licence and made our plans the retirement age WAS 65, it was then moved back to 60. I would like to continue to the age that was initially agreed and, like you, be able to fulfill my plan. By being able to continue to 65, our initially agreed age, we may require you young blades to work an extra five years but that is infinitely better than being forcibly retired five years early.

[dudly]

Flying Guy

Not one person so far has listed the specific reasons the FAA and ALPA say we should retire early - increased risk of sudden incapacitation and deteriorating mental ability.

Flying Guy, I believe originally ALPA was against the age 60 retirement, which at the time was 65. The head of AA at the time C.R. Smith wanted to get rid of his older higher paid pilots and asked the then head of the FEDs Gen. Quesada to change the rule to age 60 retirement, which he did within 2 weeks I believe. By the way, when Gen. Quesada retired he became a member of the board of directors of AA. Go figure. Strictly a back smoke filled room deal. It originally to my knowledge had nothing to do with medical or mental ability. That all came in later for the youngsters to berate the decling abilities of the old farts. At least in their opinion.

[Carbon Life Form]

I find it quite incredible, that some of the former contributor's feel that those who complain about the older pilots being 'forced' to retire at age 60 are supposedly being selfish.

You all personally benefited from other pilots retiring ahead of you,but now you want those junior to you to not benefit in the same way, you feel that you are 'special' and you shouldn't have to comply with the same rules that moved you up.

You want the choice to continue flying? rent an aircraft, fly for a non-sked, whatever. I liked the idea of a retiree being given the option to return at the bottom of the FO'S list at first, except that would deny some very deserving young pilot his chance for many years.

At my airline we have furloughed a substantial number of pilots and shrunk steadily since 9-11 Prior to that date I had been awarded a Captains seat finally after waiting 14 years. I lost my award without even going to training with the cut-backs, I am now starting my 17th year with this company and I cannot hold a
left seat anywhere in our system on any aircraft even on reserve


And yet most of the Captains I fly with have not had to wait even a third of the time myself and others of my seniority have,and there are thousands of other pilots in similar predicaments that do not deserve to have their aspirations, and what they truly deserve put on a further hold, that was induced initially by 9-11
and hard economic times.


But now we're supposed to swallow a further delay imposed by the pure selfish greed of those who don't know when to move on.

But this forty year old 'young buck' only speaks for himself.

[pom]

With that sort of attitude, if you have to be on a flight deck you're in the right seat in two ways.

:mad:

[dudly]

Carbon Life Form, my brother in law spent about 16 years on the engineers seat and then 3 or 4 more on the second pilots seat before making first pilot. I never heard him complain once. He once told me that the main requirement for getting senior was your birthday and the state of the economy when and if you got hired. Getting hired in the time frame he did was also quite a feat, not at all like getting hired in the 80's or 90's when massive amounts of pilots were retained.

You state that you do not deserve to have your aspirations and what you "TRULY DESERVE" put on hold. Thats quite an arrogant statement from someone who was hired at an inexperienced 23 years old. My brother in law also told me that the only pilots that get truly senior are those inexperienced youngsters hired at 23 but at the start of a hiring boom. The more experienced older aviators that get hired have a much shorter career and less senior career and are outlasted by the youngsters.

I think this is really a generational thing. The younger generation has this sense of entitlement that I have never quite understood.
If you want to place blame on someone, don't do it on your fellow aviator, but place it on your parents for your birthday and whoever is leading the country for the state of economic affairs.

This goofy trip we call life is so very short, maybe you should relax and enjoy it before it is over. I would also like to add I hope the state of the economy turns around quickly and that you regain your first pilots seat.

Good luck.

[BlueEagle]

I think you may be coming into this debate half way down the track. There are many of us here who joined when retirement was at 65 but were forced to retire at 60. We LOST five years at the top end that could have made an enormous difference to our final pension etc. You are simply being asked to work another five years, according to your planning, (60), you will now reap the same benefit, if you work to 65, that we all lost. Who is being selfish?

[Carbon Life Form]

Actually, dudly I was hired at 24 and was a Flight Engineer for four
years, and then a reserve FO for three, working up to 767 FO currently.

Your brother was hired in a different era, where everyone expected to upgrade at the glacial rate he experienced, the environment was much different and pay and conditions were far superior <relatively>

Notwithstanding his achievement, simply because more pilots
were hired in the 80's and 90's does not mean those pilots are
any less capable.

Contrary to your statement I did not say 'I do not deserve to have my aspirations and what I truly deserve put on hold'

If you reread my submission it says there are thousands of other pilots in similar predicaments that do not deserve to have their aspirations, and what they truly deserve put on a further hold, by
the greed of others who benefited from the same law they want to change.



I suspect you moved up
at a much more satisfactory rate than your brother or pilots of my generation at my Airline.

A common thread with those that criticize myself and my peers is
indeed a much more rapid rise through the ranks. Perhaps it's not me that feels this sense of 'entitlement'

Life, indeed is short dudly.

[411A]

Those who bit@h and moan because they do not 'move up' as quickly as they think is appropriate, have an alternative...they can quit and join another company where their prospects might be brighter.

IF they stay with their original company, they will just have to wait their turn, like it or not...and many won't.

Aw....poor babies:{

[Navitimer]

In the Philippines, the authorities have already gone over the age issue. They passed legislation 5 years ago (1998) allowing pilots over 65 to fly, but DOMESTIC ROUTES ONLY. Wanna know why? Because PAL then was on strike and the only way they could get their planes off the ground with any measure of safety (as they only had a handful of ab-initio pilots then working for them inside) was to reactivate the RETIRED PILOTS!

Sure, the retired guys could still fly domestic up to the age of 65. But what about those guys flying international? Will they be "demoted" and returned to domestic flying after reaching 60? Wouldn't that upset the balance of new guys coming in? Maybe ALPA could use this as a case study for resolving this issue.

[fiftyfour]

In the UK, provided that you pass the medical, you can fly commercially to age 65. Many companies have earlier mandatory retirement dates typically 55 or 60 tied to their company pension schemes.
Under ICAO treaty between virtually every country in the world, pilots licences of visiting or overflying commercial aircraft are acceptable up to age 65.
Unfortunately, the French will not allow Captains to fly over or into France, over the age of 60. This is due to pressure from unions on their government, and the way their state pension scheme rules are constructed.
The result, for a UK Captain, is that you become virtually useless to the average major UK airline which obviously needs its crews to be able transit France. You are therefore unemployable. Pilot employment contracts normally state that retirement will be at 60 (although BA has 55).
As from December 2006 it will be illegal to compel anybody to retire purely due to age alone, under age discrimination directives agreed by all EU leaders at the EU summit in Berlin last November. The French were at the same summit in Berlin, and are signed up to the same date in Dec 2006. If they fail to comply, the French government will find themselves facing the Europian Commission at the EU Court, and every pilot (and others affected) will be able to sue for loss of earnings and damages from Dec 2006.

[dudly]

Carbon Life Form, actually I was in the Fighter Pilot community most of my working life. I do have several family members that went the airline route however. I guess those that went to the airlines tied their star to a particular company and hung on for the ride. Being an employee is always tough when some shyster management type self destructs the company due to his ineptitude. You are just along for the ride and have not much say other than to quit. It seems the airline biz has an over abundance of the shyster type managers.

[Sleeve Wing]

Nobody has come up with the situation whereby a Captain who wants to retire at 60 ( or 55), because he's had enough of the tribulations of the Airline business, is prevented from continuing to fly, say in GA.
I had the problem of being offered a job as a Be 320 captain, until they realised I was TOO OLD !! As someone has already mentioned, I could not fly over France.
That was 4 years ago.
I now spend my time teaching aerobatics (most of the time) and doing long distance walks ( 200+ miles) and anything else that keeps the blood pumping.
It's got nothing to do with supposed deteriorating health. Its all to do with how quickly Jacques can get down to his yacht in St.Trop !



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

Sleeve.

[Anotherpost75]

Sleeve Wing

Were do I sign? Sounds bloody marvelous to me! I guess even us old duffers can still cut the mustard, keep the blood pumping and the marbles clicking? – and will continue to be able to do so for very many more years – eh? (insh-allah). Pity about all these blunty, politicians (here on Pprune and in Paris/Brussels/Strasbourg) who reckon we’re as useless and pathetic as they are!

Poor old Jaques, eh, sitting around at home (or on the boat), thinking he'd got one over the "rosbifs" and waiting patiently to die!!

[Sleeve Wing]

Anotherpost75

'Spose "being as old as the hostie you feel" is a bit tacky really but, seriously, I just didn't want and wasn't ready to suddenly pack up doing what I'd wanted to do since about the age of 7 or 8.

Sure I feel for the young guys waiting impatiently in the righthand seat but why should that stop me leaving an Airline and getting a GA job. By the time 60 comes, I'd say he's welcome to it !!

Just because some Johnnie Foreigner, or anyone else for that matter, who's made a small fortune out of his country's airline, wants to spend it doing something else shouldn't have any influence on the rest of us.
If we're fortunately still in good health and wish to continue, albeit in some other facet of the business, the Medical should be the only criteria.

I personally had had enough of the " heavy" stuff. All I wanted was to fly somebody's nice turbo-twin now and again; I just needed to fly for me for a change and maybe make a few bob on the side.

I've actually been lucky enough, having put together a few lapsed ratings before I retired, to now be involved in all kinds of light aircraft flying, from MTP, to instructing and examining, to film work. Most rewarding.It's just that I would have liked the choice.

Rgds, Sleeve.
:cool: :ok: