Age 60 rule status?
Join Date: May 2000
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There were 2 independent bills, one in the Senate and one in the House. While defeat of the Senate bill makes it more difficult to pass any such bill, there is still a thread of hope whilr the House bill is still alive.
Left Seat 747
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ALPA does it again with lies and disinformation. What ever happened to intregrity?
ALPA's position on age 60 has NOTHING to do with safety - purely economics and young bucks wanting to upgrade faster. As airline salaries get lower, ALPA will change it's tune because the senior guys will need more time to put together their retirement.
Sour grapes? You bet.
ALPA's position on age 60 has NOTHING to do with safety - purely economics and young bucks wanting to upgrade faster. As airline salaries get lower, ALPA will change it's tune because the senior guys will need more time to put together their retirement.
Sour grapes? You bet.
Join Date: Nov 1999
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The day I got my ATR in 1973 I knew when my retirement would be.
I never lived beyond my means. Have never owned a new car, live in a small house bought as a foreclosure from the bank.
Very few people have a retirement package like mine.
At age 53 I have 13 years with a Commuter Airline with no retirement and 19 years in with a major air carrier. 5 years of that on a killer B scale and 5 years on a Employee Owned Stock Ownership Program that was liquidated in bankruptcy.
Still, in retirement I should be comfortable. I save what I can, and have it deducted from my pay before I ever see it.
At my carrier it was identified that 1200 pilots would be eligible to return to work. That means every wide body pilot would lose his job and bump back to lesser equipment.
We used to have 10,300 pilots, now we are down to 7700 and we are furlouging 60 a month indefinately. I see at us leveling out at about 6000 as flying is transferred to the RJ's and the Star Alliance.
Sorry, Age 60 retirement is what you bargained for when you took the airline job. Working to age 66, as proposed in the Inofee bill just scares the living daylight out of me. After being gone for 15 days a month for 32 years, two divorces because I was not "able to meet her needs because I was never home" I really planned on retiring at age 60 to enjoy my life and my grandchildren.
Just give up the Mercedes and the Captain's house when you are a First Officer and save instead. And have fun in your retirement.
I never lived beyond my means. Have never owned a new car, live in a small house bought as a foreclosure from the bank.
Very few people have a retirement package like mine.
At age 53 I have 13 years with a Commuter Airline with no retirement and 19 years in with a major air carrier. 5 years of that on a killer B scale and 5 years on a Employee Owned Stock Ownership Program that was liquidated in bankruptcy.
Still, in retirement I should be comfortable. I save what I can, and have it deducted from my pay before I ever see it.
At my carrier it was identified that 1200 pilots would be eligible to return to work. That means every wide body pilot would lose his job and bump back to lesser equipment.
We used to have 10,300 pilots, now we are down to 7700 and we are furlouging 60 a month indefinately. I see at us leveling out at about 6000 as flying is transferred to the RJ's and the Star Alliance.
Sorry, Age 60 retirement is what you bargained for when you took the airline job. Working to age 66, as proposed in the Inofee bill just scares the living daylight out of me. After being gone for 15 days a month for 32 years, two divorces because I was not "able to meet her needs because I was never home" I really planned on retiring at age 60 to enjoy my life and my grandchildren.
Just give up the Mercedes and the Captain's house when you are a First Officer and save instead. And have fun in your retirement.
Left Seat 747
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My hat's off to you Sir for your sacrifice and planning. I have owned several new cars and a new house in the past.
When I got my own ATP, also in 1973 (we called it an "ATR" back in those days) I honestly never even considered that I would EVER have to retire. Life seems endless when you are young. In the later years the age sixty rule seems so foolish that I was sure it would be repealed before I hit the deadline. Now it has arrived.
With all respect for your position in this matter I maintain that a pilot who is mentally and physically fit should not be forced to retire at age sixty. I make the obvious suggestion to those that want to retire at sixty, or fifty five, or any other age to do so. Just don't force retirement on myself and others who love to fly big jet airplanes, who are good and conscientious pilots, and who have great experience.
It is especially irksome that those who proclaim self described deteriorating health and mental acumen do so for economic reasons - to the detriment for the rest of us who want to keep flying. That is selfish.
My career parallels yours with companies out of business, bounced pay checks, and furloughs. I currently fly for a small, one airplane company, teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. I make less than an accountant to fly the world's biggest commercial airliner. Strangely enough, I want to have the right to keep doing it.
Well, raving about it here won't make any difference. Life often isn't fair.
When I got my own ATP, also in 1973 (we called it an "ATR" back in those days) I honestly never even considered that I would EVER have to retire. Life seems endless when you are young. In the later years the age sixty rule seems so foolish that I was sure it would be repealed before I hit the deadline. Now it has arrived.
With all respect for your position in this matter I maintain that a pilot who is mentally and physically fit should not be forced to retire at age sixty. I make the obvious suggestion to those that want to retire at sixty, or fifty five, or any other age to do so. Just don't force retirement on myself and others who love to fly big jet airplanes, who are good and conscientious pilots, and who have great experience.
It is especially irksome that those who proclaim self described deteriorating health and mental acumen do so for economic reasons - to the detriment for the rest of us who want to keep flying. That is selfish.
My career parallels yours with companies out of business, bounced pay checks, and furloughs. I currently fly for a small, one airplane company, teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. I make less than an accountant to fly the world's biggest commercial airliner. Strangely enough, I want to have the right to keep doing it.
Well, raving about it here won't make any difference. Life often isn't fair.
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ALPA should have no saying in this matter at all.
This discriminatory law should be abolished forthwith.
If ALPA members wants to retire at age
60 or at any age before that, they are
certainly free to do so.
After all, the Greyhound bus drivers union
doesn't dictate the age limit for holding
the operating licens required.
The debate in the senate the other day
was in deed very short and lame.
It gave the impression that a bunch of
greedy pilots wanted to squezze as much
as possible out of a crippled industry that
is far from the truth. How many pilots
haven't lost their retirement allready and
in need of work to simply survive, never
mind the fancy cars!!!
but of course, this is considered to be our
own fault and not that of incompetent
and greedy "management".
How about an age limit for executives.
That would give them only so much time
to mess up.
This discriminatory law should be abolished forthwith.
If ALPA members wants to retire at age
60 or at any age before that, they are
certainly free to do so.
After all, the Greyhound bus drivers union
doesn't dictate the age limit for holding
the operating licens required.
The debate in the senate the other day
was in deed very short and lame.
It gave the impression that a bunch of
greedy pilots wanted to squezze as much
as possible out of a crippled industry that
is far from the truth. How many pilots
haven't lost their retirement allready and
in need of work to simply survive, never
mind the fancy cars!!!
but of course, this is considered to be our
own fault and not that of incompetent
and greedy "management".
How about an age limit for executives.
That would give them only so much time
to mess up.
Join Date: Aug 1999
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What about no age limit, but once over 60 you go to the bottom of the First Officers seniority list.
If you love flying soooo much then that should take care of the urge.
Or the bottom of the Captains list.
It is the selfishness of the over 60's in their attitude to that's mine and you're not going to get it, that pisses people off. I have always heard "one day son, this will all be yours". Only problem, the people who said it have now ensured it is further away by going past their normal retirement date.
Sure, go past 60, but go to the bottom. I'd be interested to see how many of our over 60's would be there if that was the case.
If you love flying soooo much then that should take care of the urge.
Or the bottom of the Captains list.
It is the selfishness of the over 60's in their attitude to that's mine and you're not going to get it, that pisses people off. I have always heard "one day son, this will all be yours". Only problem, the people who said it have now ensured it is further away by going past their normal retirement date.
Sure, go past 60, but go to the bottom. I'd be interested to see how many of our over 60's would be there if that was the case.
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How about the middle ground?
Lets say for example, the senior Captain retires at his carrier at age sixty (mandatory retirement in the ALPO contract, and no chance to 'rehire' on the bottom of the list) then, due to a change in the present regulation, has the opportunity to move to another carrier (perhaps a start-up) where his experience and knowledge would be benefical.
Under the present regulations, this is not possible.
Could use a few like this...shortly.
Lets say for example, the senior Captain retires at his carrier at age sixty (mandatory retirement in the ALPO contract, and no chance to 'rehire' on the bottom of the list) then, due to a change in the present regulation, has the opportunity to move to another carrier (perhaps a start-up) where his experience and knowledge would be benefical.
Under the present regulations, this is not possible.
Could use a few like this...shortly.
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“Get to 60, leave the business and get a life for a few years before the grim reaper comes calling...........................”
I am curious why you feel that you or anyone else should decide, based on your appraisal of your own particular situation, someone else’s employment destiny? If you are tired of hotels and check rides – retire – it’s your option. Why do you feel it necessary to single out pilots as a profession to force into early retirement when there may well be other pilots who still enjoy flying and because of that do not need to “get a life?”
Doctors, Lawyers, the politicians that perpetuate this charade of justice, are not similarly chastised. They can keep on cutting people open, and making decisions that have profound impact on our lives, yet they are not even scrutinized through routine check rides and physical exams.
To the argument that pilots knew what they were getting into when they where hired, so now why should they bitch – this is curiously similar to racial prejudice. Why should the blacks have complained about not having equal opportunity? They should have seen it when they were young – and just kept there mouths shut and endured. Fortunately they did not and another injustice in our society has begun to crumble – just as this clear case of age discrimination will.
LL
I am curious why you feel that you or anyone else should decide, based on your appraisal of your own particular situation, someone else’s employment destiny? If you are tired of hotels and check rides – retire – it’s your option. Why do you feel it necessary to single out pilots as a profession to force into early retirement when there may well be other pilots who still enjoy flying and because of that do not need to “get a life?”
Doctors, Lawyers, the politicians that perpetuate this charade of justice, are not similarly chastised. They can keep on cutting people open, and making decisions that have profound impact on our lives, yet they are not even scrutinized through routine check rides and physical exams.
To the argument that pilots knew what they were getting into when they where hired, so now why should they bitch – this is curiously similar to racial prejudice. Why should the blacks have complained about not having equal opportunity? They should have seen it when they were young – and just kept there mouths shut and endured. Fortunately they did not and another injustice in our society has begun to crumble – just as this clear case of age discrimination will.
LL
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Extremely well put loke!
What the young blades in the industry tend too forget is that not every Captain has 40 years under his belt and a 'fat pension' waiting at 60!
Many have come into the job later in life due to not having the benefit of sponsership, or a military background, having to pay their way through the system by working at other professions until they finally get to their goal.
Are you guys saying that once you reach the age of 60, regardless of how many years you've been flying, should step aside for some younger person who may have the potential of many more years pensionable service than you?
And who says 60 is the age where people become dispensible?
I have a colleague of that age, who has successfully challenged the 60 retirement policy. He is extremely fit, very experienced, and considerably more competent than many of his younger colleagues.
He simply does not think he should be sitting at home when he can be doing what he loves and is best at!
Good for him!
I realise this is mainly an American forum, but it's a common problem to us all.
Jiust remember you young moaners out there - one of the only certain things in life is that you'll eventually get older!
What the young blades in the industry tend too forget is that not every Captain has 40 years under his belt and a 'fat pension' waiting at 60!
Many have come into the job later in life due to not having the benefit of sponsership, or a military background, having to pay their way through the system by working at other professions until they finally get to their goal.
Are you guys saying that once you reach the age of 60, regardless of how many years you've been flying, should step aside for some younger person who may have the potential of many more years pensionable service than you?
And who says 60 is the age where people become dispensible?
I have a colleague of that age, who has successfully challenged the 60 retirement policy. He is extremely fit, very experienced, and considerably more competent than many of his younger colleagues.
He simply does not think he should be sitting at home when he can be doing what he loves and is best at!
Good for him!
I realise this is mainly an American forum, but it's a common problem to us all.
Jiust remember you young moaners out there - one of the only certain things in life is that you'll eventually get older!
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The other day I helped a little old lady down the stairs on arrival at our destination. She looked at me and said "This too will happen to you one day" For those of us fortuneate enough it will.
Remember boys if you want the Chiefs to move along quietly be prepared to be shoehorned yourself say in 20-30 + years.
One of my skippers once told me when he just starting out there was no way he yas going to fly past 55, now that he is 64 well, umm.....things have changed.
Beware.
Remember boys if you want the Chiefs to move along quietly be prepared to be shoehorned yourself say in 20-30 + years.
One of my skippers once told me when he just starting out there was no way he yas going to fly past 55, now that he is 64 well, umm.....things have changed.
Beware.
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The thing is, I like you joined this industry knowing I would be retired at 60. I therefore know where the goalposts are and plan my life accordingly.
You, however, by staying past age 60 now move my goalposts because the Command salary that enables me to make my plans is now delayed due to you not retiring. I now have to go past 60 to have the same planned retirement. I don't want to do that, I want to retire. You affect all pilots who wish to retire at age 60 if you continue.
I wasn't surprised you wouldn't be impressed about going to the bottom of the F/O list, but that Command now goes to someone like me who is planning to retire at age 60. If you go to the bottom of the Captains list you still delay the promotion. If you do it for the love of flying then an F/O seat is still flying. If you are just doing it for the money well...............
p.s. to compare the age 60 rule to the struggle of the coloured people of America is a disgrace and shows how ridiculous you really are.
You, however, by staying past age 60 now move my goalposts because the Command salary that enables me to make my plans is now delayed due to you not retiring. I now have to go past 60 to have the same planned retirement. I don't want to do that, I want to retire. You affect all pilots who wish to retire at age 60 if you continue.
I wasn't surprised you wouldn't be impressed about going to the bottom of the F/O list, but that Command now goes to someone like me who is planning to retire at age 60. If you go to the bottom of the Captains list you still delay the promotion. If you do it for the love of flying then an F/O seat is still flying. If you are just doing it for the money well...............
p.s. to compare the age 60 rule to the struggle of the coloured people of America is a disgrace and shows how ridiculous you really are.
Last edited by jakethemuss; 15th Jun 2003 at 21:15.
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How about, going from let's say 80 hours a month to 40 hours a month when one hits 60 years of age, with mandatory retirement at 65.
Half the wage, half everything so to speak. Kind of semi-retirement, you see my point? With every 2 old timers going into semi-retirement, that leaves room for one upgrade and one new hiree off the street. Better than nothing at all.
That's what I'd like to do anyway.
Cheers!
Half the wage, half everything so to speak. Kind of semi-retirement, you see my point? With every 2 old timers going into semi-retirement, that leaves room for one upgrade and one new hiree off the street. Better than nothing at all.
That's what I'd like to do anyway.
Cheers!
Left Seat 747
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First, I would like to say thanks to the way the negative replies have been written on this subject. Although the writers disagree with my viewpoint, all sincerely promote the writer's point of view. I have been involved in discussions like these in the past in PPRUNE and some people get really nasty with taunts and insults.
I would like to respectfully point out that all who support age 60 retirement give reasons having to do with promotions, economics, and personal planning.
Not one person so far has listed the specific reasons the FAA and ALPA say we should retire early - increased risk of sudden incapacitation and deteriorating mental ability.
It would appear we all agree that those are not the REAL reasons to force us to retire at age 60!
Isn't that interesting! :-)
I would like to respectfully point out that all who support age 60 retirement give reasons having to do with promotions, economics, and personal planning.
Not one person so far has listed the specific reasons the FAA and ALPA say we should retire early - increased risk of sudden incapacitation and deteriorating mental ability.
It would appear we all agree that those are not the REAL reasons to force us to retire at age 60!
Isn't that interesting! :-)
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Who Moved the Goalposts in the First Place?
Jakethemuss - When I and many others got our licence and made our plans the retirement age WAS 65, it was then moved back to 60. I would like to continue to the age that was initially agreed and, like you, be able to fulfill my plan. By being able to continue to 65, our initially agreed age, we may require you young blades to work an extra five years but that is infinitely better than being forcibly retired five years early.
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Flying Guy
Not one person so far has listed the specific reasons the FAA and ALPA say we should retire early - increased risk of sudden incapacitation and deteriorating mental ability.
Flying Guy, I believe originally ALPA was against the age 60 retirement, which at the time was 65. The head of AA at the time C.R. Smith wanted to get rid of his older higher paid pilots and asked the then head of the FEDs Gen. Quesada to change the rule to age 60 retirement, which he did within 2 weeks I believe. By the way, when Gen. Quesada retired he became a member of the board of directors of AA. Go figure. Strictly a back smoke filled room deal. It originally to my knowledge had nothing to do with medical or mental ability. That all came in later for the youngsters to berate the decling abilities of the old farts. At least in their opinion.
Not one person so far has listed the specific reasons the FAA and ALPA say we should retire early - increased risk of sudden incapacitation and deteriorating mental ability.
Flying Guy, I believe originally ALPA was against the age 60 retirement, which at the time was 65. The head of AA at the time C.R. Smith wanted to get rid of his older higher paid pilots and asked the then head of the FEDs Gen. Quesada to change the rule to age 60 retirement, which he did within 2 weeks I believe. By the way, when Gen. Quesada retired he became a member of the board of directors of AA. Go figure. Strictly a back smoke filled room deal. It originally to my knowledge had nothing to do with medical or mental ability. That all came in later for the youngsters to berate the decling abilities of the old farts. At least in their opinion.