Free First Officers

[alapt]

Found this on the "Barnstormers" web page and I thought you all should read it.. ."Use free first officers for your transport aircraft. Reduce your operating expenses! We provide F/O's typed in the A/C of your choice. They will fly for your company NO SALARY or any other COMPENSATION, plus we pay a fee for your company.. .Contact Stephen Hoinville at . .EAGLE JET INTERNATIONAL AT mia.. .TEL 1-305-278-0012. .fAX 1-305-378-8925". .. .lets see if all the so called "unions" will stand around and do nothing, again...... .What is this profession coming to???. .Regards to all

[KADS]

That is so sad. Indeed, what is this profession coming to? We all make our own beds....

[ijp]

Where is the news in this? Foreign pilots have been doing this in the USA for years. Just to build time. The problem is getting them qualified, and insurance min. Lots of 135 outfits use these kids flying light twins up tp turbo props. Unions are not involved, they are not paid so no problem with INS. (as a matter of fact, the foreigner sometimes pays) And sometime low salary is paid in cash under the table.. .How would you stop it?

[Bamse01]

Any company doing such a thing should be blacklisted and unable to find any pilots,paid or unpaid.. .There is an "airline" in MIA that has been doing this for years ( Gulfstream International) and I. .still fail to see how they are getting away with it. I believe they charge $18,000 for 200-250 hrs in the right seat of a B-1900. . .It is immoral and should be illegal!. .Don't work for these companies!!!

[Ignition Override]

Yep, when my brother flew (recip) Twin Commanders a few years ago, carrying cargo all night long with three or four legs, he sometimes had British and/or European copilots. He told me that the young pilots paid his (former) Kansas City, MO company about $20 per hour, in order to acquire some multi hours. His company was called "Regional Southwest Air", or something very similar. It is possible that my brother was not given very accurate info about the company "requirements" to allow a second pilot fly. Many nights he flew solo, and what a grinding duty period! He was based at the downtown Kansas City Airport.. .. .Were these foreign pilots logging PIC time when they flew as second-in-command in the US?. .. .If somebody needs more info, send me a note and I will ask my Bruder to clarify.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 04:58: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</small>

[No Mode Charlie]

Although some of my countrymen here might think differently, the Brits ARE european <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Sorry IO, couldn't resist <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .On topic, how do you think you'll ever be able to stop it in the current climate? Minimum requirements go up and they still leave flight-school with just over 200 hours. All these CP's are then "ready" for it but nobody will give them a job unless they "pay" for their type. All this is wrong but will never change unless small operaters stop using these people too but they like the money to much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[RVR800]

Sorry to say this but its a function of supply and demand. .. .Too many guys too few jobs and quality clearly isn't an issue

[nightstopmonster]

Well, all I can say is that I am never recommending this career to my children. Working for free (out of desperation) may seem the right thing to do at the start. But by Christ,we later realise that this was the worst thing we could ever do. The training is expensive, the remuneration is poor. . .Until we all wake up and smell the coffee we get what we deserve.. .. .Have a nice day.

[overstress]

RTO. .. .Frankly I don't care about your situation. But how would you like it if I came to your boss and asked him if I could do your job instead of you, for no wages, thereby putting you out of work.. .. .Then you would have no cash to pursue your chosen next career.. .. .Well some of us are trying to earn a living at this and resent those who would seek to undermine it.. .. .If you 'love to fly' then don't become an airline pilot, use your savings to buy a share in an aircraft. It may come as a surprise, but there are many professional pilots like me who never see an airport or aeroplane in between duties.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 22:14: Message edited by: overstress ]</small>

[Metro man]

Realistically what is the next step ? Captains paying for time on type ! How much would you pay for 500 hours in command of a B737NG.How would that improve your employment prospects in todays competative job market? Coming soon to an airline near you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[HugMonster]

Tough, but fair.. .. .RTO, think about it. Are you (a) advancing or (b) retarding the chances of airline pilots generally? Are pilots who do this (a) an asset or (b) a liability to flight safety?. .. .Low-budget employers either get pilots with a little experience, whom they have to pay living wages, or they get numpties with no experience and no assets worth a damn except a bit of paper, and they get money in the bank.. .. .Lack of regulation is killing the employment market. And with just a little less luck than hitherto, they will kill the punters as well.. .. .A used to work for a Flight Ops Director who had a pilot (just out of 509, ink hardly dry on a frozen ATPL) tell him he'd work for nothing, just to get the experience. Sent him away with a flea in his ear, telling him never, EVER to try pulling that stunt again. And good for him.. .. .The sort of company that would pull this stunt should be illegal. Not only for trying to get round actually paying their staff, but for trying to find ways to get cheaper, less-qualified staff than they ought to be employing.. .. .RTO, so you are finding it tough. I sympathise. No, really I do. I found it tough when I was starting out. Now, with 4,000 hours under my belt, including a significant amount of command time, I am still finding it tough. So what? How do you think I and the MANY like me, many much more experienced, like it when we see kids willing to fly for free?. .. .What about the two captains who used to fly for the same company as me, married to each other with a baby then about to be born, both made redundant - god knows how many hours in command and hours of training experience between them, both made redundant when the bank pulled the plug? You think you deserve a job before them? You think that encouraging the less scrupulous companies in their dangerous practices provides progress for our profession, for the industry?

[KADS]

RTO, if you like to fly and think seriously about pursuing a career in aviation, then think SERIOUSLY about how you want that career to be and how YOU expect your future profession to be. Don't help to undermine the profession as it is today so that when you get a job, it'll be something totally different....

[Bamse01]

RTO, I can sympathize with your situation, but believe me, most of us have been in the same situation when the job market dried up.. .The fact is , if NOBODY takes these unpaid jobs, these companies will be forced to actually employ. .somebody at a living wage.. . As a fellow Norwegian, I can understand that there aren't any flying jobs in Norway right now,. .but the cycle always repeats itself, and the supply/demand ratio will once again favor pilots looking for work.. .My recommendation is be patient, flight instruct . .if you can, and eventually your big break will come, and it won't be as a slave for a guy like . .T.C.

[ijp]

As long as foreign pilots come to the USA and fly for free, dodge immigration until somehow they get a green card, problem will persist.. .I don't really understand how someone could abandon the allegiance to his or her native country. I wonder how many would want to stay if they had to serve a couple years in the military first. Interesting thought.

[SkyGuy]

This is a tricky one!!. .I agree with RTO that you do what you have to do to progress in this game,i think it is all too easy for us with jobs to judge.. . If i found myself in this situation i would prob pay for something like this if i could afford it , there prob isn't a guy on this site that wouldn't.. .The problem is there are too many non nationals flying for our airlines at present.. .It upsets me when i hear a foreign voice in a British aircraft , i think of all our guys working in offices etc who never stood a chance.. .I think if we want to point fingers here then we should start with CAA and BALPA not at guys trying to become a part of what we take for granted!. .Good luck RTO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[SkyGuy]

OH RTO. .Just spotted your from Norway please don't come over here looking for work.. .TA... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[HugMonster]

Two errors in your post, SkyGuy:-. .. .1) You say it is too easy for people with jobs to judge - what about those without jobs? I am currently unemployed (thanks, BoS) and IMHO schemes like the one described stink. The sort of people who use them think nothing about the consequences to the profession and the industry. It simply encourages the worst sort of employer to try to pay less than the going rate for a suitably-experienced pilot, and fill his aircraft with know-nothing numpties, just so the paperwork looks right. Safety? Damn safety.. .. .2) There are many people here who would never go in for such a scheme. I am one.

[No Mode Charlie]

Ach no, SkyGuy might be just another xenophobe, why is it that there's always someone who likes his borders so much that he thinks that anything foreign is to blame for his own misery. How sad, SkyGuy, don't you think that the situation would be even worse if ALL Brits flying all over the world were to be told to return to dear old England and try their luck here? I'm sure all our foreign colleagues would then stand a better chance of getting a job in their country. That will not solve anything though, its a global market my friend!. .. .Back to the topic: Unfortunately this situation won't change unless EVERY LAST pilot, looking for a job, will say: "Pay you mister boss, no way." But with so many hundreds looking for jobs there will always be some who will take the offer and fork out the money. Sad but true. .. .And RTO, if you could come over here (UK) and find a job, your welcome to it. Even if it was just to annoy Skygod. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[hereford united]

Its all a matter of market forces - as individuals we can all try to make a certain stand, but the fundamentals of the market will always apply. Now if BALPA/ALPA/IFALPA or governments change the nature of the market that is another thing..... .. .In the UK Monarch, Sabre, UKLeisure(now A2000), Airtours, Easyjet and others have all had guys in the RHS for 6 months for free, with the carrot of a contract at the end. I should know - I was one of them. . .. .I'm not saying it's right - but I didn't dwell on the morality too much at the time, and the break it got me now has me in the left seat of a 737 aged 33. Did I feel exploited ? A bit. Do I recommend the scheme to 200 hour guys now - of course I do! That's capitalism. The alternative system didn't work too well apparently.. .. .Or look at it another way. Other "professions" also have "nasty hoops" to them (Junior House Doctors for one) - and lets not forget David Beckham was once a YTS trainee !!!!

[Approaching_the_minimums]

So Mr "I don't like non-brits flying british aircraft", you're telling us if you were unemployed you wouldn't apply abroad? I think that if you were grounded as long as a lot of us are, you would say yes to a company calling from Mongolia to come fly for them without blinking.. .Here in Belgium, I estimate 60 or even 70% of all pro-pilots are out of a job. And that while a lot of local companies employ expats, and a heluvva a lot of em are.... guess what Brits. And do you see me blow up about it, no. It's just tough luck, that's how the free market works. Just think that if we would apply your theory of each pilot can only fly at a company in his own country, yours would be overflowing with you're nationals who've been flying all over the world and have an enormous amount of experience among them. . .You can bet that when some foreign airline offers me my first jet-job I will accept it with both hands without feeling sorry for the national pilots, as long as the company is sound and they pay me what I'm worth offcourse. . .That said, I do think that recruiters should employ local people if they are available instead of fleeing into cheap labour.. .Which brings us to the will-fly-for-free guys. I spent a lot of money on getting where I am right now (which is nowhere actually) and I'm not planning to just give all that away for free. I am convinced that I am a quality pilot (I hope each pro-flyer thinks that of himself) and think that if someone wants quality, he has to pay for it. I haven't heard of another job anywhere in the world where one works for free or even has to pay! The only reason this abuse persits is because we all share one thing, our passion for flying. Some 'clever' business men take advantage of this, IMHO these people should stick to selling used cars and stay far away from aviation. . .. .If you are a pilot whose job is very dear to him, try not to give in to the temptation, even if you have the money. It's the only way we can preserve our precarious quality of life.

[jetgirl]

Why is that folks who have climbed the ladder are always so keen to pull it up after them?. .. .Why not let young guns have a chance at the RHS of a jet in the UK. After all, they present no threat if they are no good, and are good for the airline and us pilots if there are. The selection and training (here in the UK) is extremly tough and uncompromising. Probably more so than for DEP who have some experience.. .. .I have made redundant twice in my 3 years in the business but I dont resent these guys taking a golden chance if they manage to get it. Remember, you can always apply rather than sitting at home and whinging............ . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 17:42: Message edited by: jetgirl ]</small>

[LimaNovember]

SkyGuy,. .. .You cannot be serious (?) Like it or not, your UK is part of EU, and that`s why I and many other pilots work in your country, and many with a UK passport work in our countries. That`s the way it is these days. Surprised?

[Big Buddha]

Isn't this vertually the same thing that the outfit down in Southampton (ATP Academy or such like) have been doing in the UK for years, free FO's for six months and then the airline decides whether they want to give them a contract.. .. .It always seemed pretty shoddy to me.

[SkyGuy]

I got started on the ATP scheme a few years ago. Yes i did fly for 6 months without being paid, but they were the best 6 months of my life because i knew i had made it into the big time and was now playing with the big boys in big aeroplanes.... .Look you do what you have to do in this game to progress to your final goal whatever that might be, all i know is that there are still guys i know out there flying tomohawks and warriors and some have given up on this whole thing.. .Do i deserve to be here over them .....No BUT i saw a chance and i ran with it............ and would advise any other guys suffering from this moral dilema to do the same! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[HugMonster]

The xenophobic aspect has been done (and discredited many times. Not interested in that.. .. .As for the "pay to fly" argument, there is a big difference between having F/O's pay to fly your aircraft, undercutting qualified, available pilots on the one hand, and having people fly for six months for allowances only prior to a full contract (instead of being bonded) on the other.. .. .If people are so self-interested that they will climb over the backs of their professional colleagues, then I hope never to have to rely on them for real. I suspect that, in an emergency, such a person would only be interested in saving themselves, leaving all others in the burning fuselage.. .. .Whoever asked "Who is threatened", my reply is that if, to cut costs, a small airline will employ numpties instead of qualified, experienced pilots, then everyone is threatened.

[twistedenginestarter]

Nothing like Pay For Training to start an argument amongst pilots.... .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[ironbutt57]

There are several outfits in the U.S. who offer "internships" to foreign students, who then operate as first officers on FAA 135 flights, and pay for the privilege..it's all legally set up, but disgusting at best...then the co-pilots go home, the lucky ones get jobs at their "hometown airlines", then turn around and clamor for job protection....how strange... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[thedude]

Skyguy,. .. .If I was your employer, it would make sense for me to make you redundant, you are after all costing me money. I would then save the cost of your salary by taking on another 'fly for free' 6 month trial-ee'.. .. .I was pleased to note your agreement with the concept and it is refreshing to see that people like yourself are more than happy to stand aside to allow new starter's a chance to get a little flight time! I just hope that things reach the stage where I can get captains the same way.. .. .What a load of b*****cks!. . . .In the end we all just look after no.1. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think it a little unfair to criticize the CTC 6 month placement scheme. It is a successful well established risk/cost sharing exercise. To the mutual benefit of all involved. . .. .It is indeed perhaps an ideal model for the future in replacement of the traditional 'full' airline sponsorships. Which might never return post Sept11th.... .. .WWW

[AMEX]

Buying your own job (but is it a job since you do pay for it), is just like digging your own grave. Sorry but I can't agree or justify it, that is really stealing someone's employment, which could have been yours later.. .Very Sad indeed that such programme exist <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 14 March 2002, 13:02: Message edited by: AMEX ]</small>

[Jed A1]

Sounds a bit like the PPRuNe / Astraeus deal to me!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[HugMonster]

WWW, I am not qure what difference Sept 11th. makes to airline sponsorship schemes.. .. .And this sounds nothing like the PPRuNe/Astraeus scheme.. .. .There is a big, BIG difference between (on the one hand) replacing traditional bond schemes with sponsorship schemes and (on the other hand) having F/O's pay to fly your aircraft. One you end up with a full, normal contract of employment, good training and experience. The other, they use you simply to make up numbers, then kick you out and get some other numpty with more money than sense.. .. .Yes, by all means pursue what avenues you can to further your fledgling career. But PLEASE don't undercut your colleagues, steal their jobs and, ultimately short-change yourself by going for such a scam as this.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If a company has pilots flying for free to save money where else do they skimp? Maintenance? Training? Safety considerations such as forcing pilots to cut corners?. .. .Abrahm Lincoln saw the evil in slavery and fixed the problem.. .. .Why do we still ignore the same usuery of our fellow pilots in 2002? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .Something to think about.. .. ...................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Ignition Override]

In the US, the first "pay for training" concept was initiated by Flight Safety Inc and Comair, a Delta Airlines regional partner. It is an interesting fact (to me) that the training, which had cost about the same as a B-737 or DC-9 (maybe F-100 etc) jet type rating, was for left seat turboprop simulator training and was created so that the successful trainee was not allowed to have the type rating, thereby preventing him/her from having a much more competitive resume/C.V., which theoretically could have allowed a few Brasilia First Officers to jump ship. . .. .What a deal for the trainee, paying the about same price but receiving no rating.

[LimaNovember]

Jed A1,. .. .Since you obviously know something about the pprune/Astraeus deal, why don`t you higlight us about it (?)

[Jed A1]

Inexperienced co-pilots earning little or no money whilst gaining experience.. .. .Experienced drivers sat at home unemployed.. .. .No further comment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Jabewar]

Working for free is WRONG!!. .. .When I started out I had this arguement with my Dad. He said it was worth it to get my initial hours and move on....whatever it takes. I didn't buy it. I had already worked hard to get a commercial licence and deserved to be paid for my services. I didn't expect much, it was the principle. A few years later he agreed.. .. .Some have mentioned a moral dilema, implying they disagree with 'slave labour'. Others don't care, and will do anything to 'get ahead'. Why not pad the log book? Others do. Whatever it takes to get a break. I have met and worked with some such amoral types and wouldn't put my wife and kids on an airplane they were flying!. .. .If I question the ethical/moral make up of pilots that fly free, what about the companies that employ based only on the salary cost. Where else do they compromise? Where do the savings go? You can bet the executives have fancy cars and homes!. .. .Bottom line is, we pilots must value the product we bring to an airline; our skills and commitment etc. Airlines can, and do, pay fair market rates for all other costs of doing business, why not staff? Compromising yourself during the tough times doesn't make life any better during the good times.. .. .Love your job/career but remember you are a "professional". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Send Clowns]

It strikes me that the only decent argument advanced so far against this scheme, given that it developed in a free market, is the safety aspect. Now if this organisation is working in accordance with FARs then the safety problem can only be solved by the FAA. The FARs must be too lenient. Otherwise this must be safe, as the pilots used comply with FARs.. .. .We cannot use some notion of "you could pay me to work instead". You have been undercut in the marketplace. That is the law of supply and demand. If you don't fly for the love of it then your probably in the wrong business, if you do you'll understand what these pilots are doing.

[HugMonster]

Not that simple, SC. I certainly fly for the love of it, and I can't for the life of me understand why these pilots do it.. .. .Pilots should be paid what they're perceived to be worth. If pilots value themselves this low, who else would value them higher?. .. .If, on the other hand, they show some self-respect and professionalism, then both their self-esteem and the value others put on their services would be correspondingly higher.. .. .But as long as they prostitute themselves, they can expect to be treated no better. These pilots are responsible for dragging down the profession, for creating prostitutes of the rest of us.. .. .What next? If a captain earns, say, £60k and a relatively senior F/O offers to do the job for £40k, you think he should be allowed to do so? You would shrug your shoulders, say "Well, that's supply and demand" and tell the skipper to get out of his seat and go collect his cards?. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 00:49: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</small>

[AMEX]

Sorry SC, I fail to see your point. Are you not training to be a PROFESSIONAL pilot, someone whose profession is to fly COMMERCIAL aircrafts.. .Well, if you do then I am sure that sooner or later you will realise that your employer, unless you work for The Salvation Army, has invested a lot of money in order to get a financial return, hopefully rated as a profitable one. Professionals in any area are expected to work to the highests standards but they are also expecting to be rewarded accordingly and believe you mem, these Professionals are not the only one who love what they do for a living..... . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 01:01: Message edited by: AMEX ]</small>

[Jabewar]

SC states:. ."If you don't fly for the love of it then your probably in the wrong business, if you do you'll understand what these pilots are doing.". .. .So, if we are to be decently paid and treated as professionals we should hate flying?! Doing something you love and getting paid fairly for it are not mutually exclusive ideas.. .. .I understand these pilots are selling self respect for a job. Or, I don't understand! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[LimaNovember]

Jed A1,. .. .I don`t know of any pilot that was born experienced on an aircraft type. Neither do you I would think.. .. .I understand that you do not want to follow up on this, but; how do you see inexperienced pilots becoming experienced pilots if you do not give them a chance to gain...experience? And if an airline can maintain its safety standards by employing, what you call inexperienced pilots, in the cockpit, I cannot see why not. It could well be that the candidates selected for the pprune/Astraeus scheme are all experienced pilots. Not on the B737, off course, but as pilots in general. But again, this is not only a question about hours in a log book, is it. It`s about the candidate you select for a scheme like this. And honestly Jed A1, I have no doubt that the Astraeus ops. management have gone through the selection process very carefully.

[lost soul]

Lima November-- on a slightly different note- your reply carries a banner for a web site that is faulty and has NO contact addresses. Can you email me regarding this? [email protected]. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 09:52: Message edited by: lost soul ]</small>

[Big Buddha]

OK, so the company values captains to the tune of £75K a year, the company values f/o s. at £45K a year, the company puts a value of approx. £4K on a CTC placement.. .. .If there were to be enough of these placements the value of an f/o would soon become.......?? my guess about £20K, now tell me that this is good for your jobs!

[Send Clowns]

Hugmonster - the reason is that at the moment there are too many qualified pilots around. My solution to this, given that I don't have the hours to get a job in the climate, is to work elsewhere until the climate improves. Other peoples' solutions ae to get the hours where they can. They are not actually working for free from their own point of view as always having paid for flying, just from yours as a sometime paid pilot. The experience they are acquiring would cost them a fortune. Even to barely keep the licences up costs a huge amount, at least in the UK.. .. .In fact historically this is a very common way of gaining employment in any over-subscribed profession. Apparently it is still almost impossible to start any career in the BBC without some unpaid work as an intern/student first. Historically apprenticeships were unpaid, though living space and food were provided.. .. .Oh, and on your final point is irrelevant. It would not happen under the current system. The only first officers experienced enough for most airlines to promote to captain would not do so. We are considering a real situation that has occured, not a hypothetical one. It does bring up the issue that of course the seniority system should be dismantled.. .. .Amex, these people are still learning their job (I assume the ATPLs are frozen like my own), as am I though I probably have more hours than they do. See my above points about the value to them.. .. .Jabewar - you clearly didn't even bother to read the sentence of mine that you quoted, and just made up an interpretation that cannot possibly be put on it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> I am confused as to why you did so. It makes for a completely meaningless debate if you answer a point I did not make.. .. .Do you think that PPL flying instructors are selling self-respect for a job? Many do not get paid at all, others so little that the combined value they are getting between pay and logged hours is less than the value of the logged hours these pilots are getting. However they love the job and they gain the experience needed to get a good job later.

[AMEX]

- As I am sure you know, in Aviation we never stop learning, whether you have 5 hours or 20000 hours. Does it mean because we are then still learning the job (on top of enjoying it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), we shouldn't get paid for it ?. .- From the last part of your reply, I see very well what is the value to them or should I say, I see the Value to them in a short sighted way.... .In doing so they are driving the Profession down, with the salaries with it and when years later, after their airline had gone broke (They always do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), I am not sure they will be so happy that some guy accept to pay to work, when they are now in the same situation as the more experienced pilots they undercut years earlier.. .But hey that's just great because we are only making ourselves cheaper and cheaper without anyone's help.

[Jabewar]

"If you don't fly for the love of it then your probably in the wrong business, if you do you'll understand what these pilots are doing.". .. .So, SC what do you mean by this statement? I do understand the motivation of these pilots but believe they are misguided and do little for our collective welfare.. .. .I am not preaching from on high, I am out of work too. I have been out of work before. I did not, and will not, compromise myself for something that will come in due time. Patience is a virtue.. .. .As I said, getting paid as a professional is about principle and true entry level jobs have never been well paid. A PPL instructor, as I once was, typically is low time/experience and paid accordingly, with pay increasing with experience/qualifications.. .. .If it were possible to get all pilots on side with the idea of fair pay for the job (nobody working for free), what would happen to pay? . .. .Every industry has a minimum value it accepts for its' product/service. Professional pilots should as well!

[Jabewar]

The comments thus far have been about those pilots that need to gain experience. It can also be looked at from a different perspective.. .. .I am now at a point where I am considered over qualified for many of the few jobs that are available in my neck of the woods. Perhaps I should offer to work for free to keep current and because I love my job.. .. .Small problem: loving my job does not pay the bills! When one is young and single, willing to do anything for this career seems like a worthwhile sacrifice, but as one moves forward other priorities come into play. The way we perceive ourselves as professionals early on, may well influence how others perceive our worth later. Don't be shortsighted, when one becomes a Senior FO working for poor wages, don't expect the Captain upgrade to bring a monetary windfall. Thin edge of the wedge as they say.. .. .Apparently I need a job! Too much time on my hands to rant atop my soapbox!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Iz]

At the risk of being scrutinized by a large number of fellow pilots, I'll tell you that I have done an internship for a major 135 outfit (cargo) in the US. So yes, I paid for it.. .. .It was not my job, but I sure worked incredibly hard, as if it were my job. I learned a lot. Flying turboprops in and out of places like LAX and small desert uncontrolled airports, hot, cold, bad weather, everything.. .. .I drew more experience from that than my time flying in Europe on both a Brasilia and a Boeing 757. The hours I put in my logbook during the internship aren't just hours, they're experience. 7 flight hours there were a lot more involving than a 7 hour flight on the 757 where everything is automated and you fly above the weather.. .. .I did not steal anyone's job there. The company doesn't need a first officer for the cargo flights. The amount of experience you gain there depends solely on your own person and I got a lot from it.. .. .So bla bla bla I have my CPL and I should be paid what I'm worth. So if you get your driving licence, you expect a great paying job as a taxi driver right away? Sorry but with just a CPL, you're not worth that much. It's true, there's no substitute for experience.. .. .If you do get a nice jet job with your 200 hours, then all the best to you!! Don't go saying that you DESERVE it though.. .. .Okay everybody, that's my tuppence worth, no egg throwing please! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[edriver]

Iz (alles goed),. .. .I agree with you. There couldn't be a better place for experience then that part 135 operator.. .. .So if you want to throw eggs:. .. .soft boiled with pepper and salt.

[twistedenginestarter]

I can't believe this. We're up to Page 4 on PFT and still no four letter words. What a polite group we PPRuNers are. I feel proud.. .. .And humble.

[InflateableKangaroo]

Funny, I have just started looking into "Paying for work scemes". There has been some very valuable comments (from both sides), though at the end of the day... Which low time pilot would not sell their sole for hours? . .. .If anyone can give me some companies to look into... please email me on [email protected].

[Send Clowns]

Jabewar, yes but you havehad a flying job. I assume you have a certain number of hours, enough to give you god prospects during the current recovery. These are I think people who are in a very different position.

[Constant Speed DU]

I think the people on this thread, who think that the likes of CTC and Astraeus are wrong, pretty obviously do not know the facts otherwise they definately wouldn't be commenting on them!. .. .If you still think you are right, ask yourself these questions:. .. .Would you: . .. .After spending nearly 60K on your flight training (two huge loans and two remortgages). Been offered a contract with a major UK airline, made redundant before starting due to Sept 11th. Worked in a shop for six months.And then a company like CTC came and offered to pay for your type rating, got you a job with a fantastic airline where you only got paid 1K per month. . .. .Would you say No? I don't think so!!!

[HugMonster]

Strange post there, CSU.. .. .The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that it is totally wrong.. .. .I reiterate that I have nothing against schemes that provide sponsorship with the ultimate aim of a full, normal contract at the end of it. Nor am I opposed to having what used to be called Pilot's Assistants on the flight deck of an aircraft requiring only one crew member. However, as a non-required member of the crew, I do not see how any hours flown in such a capacity can be logged.. .. .Now to the crux of the matter - having pilots pay to fly your aircraft.. .. .The contractual, legal considerations are horrific. If both the crew AND the passengers are paying, who is legally your customer? If a paying pilot were not to get what he saw as sufficient flying, could he sue you? Quite probably. If he is not technically an employee but a customer, what form of insurance cover does he have? Is he covered by employers' liability schemes, or standard passenger compensation schemes or public liability insurance? Either of the latter will probably be thoroughly inadequate.. .. .I don't particularly care that you may say a "normally-employed" F/O is receiving training. Pilots learn every flight they do, whether a normal roster day, a checkride with a Training Captain, or in the Sim. That is not an adequate measure of the matter. However, if the primary purpose of the flight is public transport, then the pilots should be paid, and receive all the protection, insurance etc. etc. implicit by a standard employer/employee relationship.. .. .Anything else should be illegal.. .. .And to all low-hour pilots out there stuck in the old experience Catch 22, I sympathise, as I am sure all other pilots do. But we've all been there. You need patience. But don't screw your colleagues by trying to climb over their backs, encouraging unscrupulous employers, and degrading the profession, making yourself and your colleagues prostitutes into the bargain.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 01:13: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</small>

[Send Clowns]

You have it reversed, Huggy. Prostitutes get paid, so all profesional pilots are prostituting themselves <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Chuck Ellsworth]

S. C.:. .. .Hug may have miss spoke as to the prostitute thing, however you don't seem bright enough to figure out that anyone " working " for no pay is in slavery.. .. .If you wish to allow some company to sodomize you financially that is O.K. with me.. .. .Just don't undercut other pilots, find a more suitable endeavour other than flying.. .. .The other very important factor is any company that saves money through slavery will in all likelyhood skimp everywhere else..Therefore safety is compromised.. .. .................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> (Think about it S.C.,say no). . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 02:50: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]</small>

[Chickhauler]

Iz, what a hell is wrong with you??? How can you log time if you are not a required crewmember? People like you make me SICK!!. .. ."The hours I put in my logbook during the internship aren't just hours,". .. ."I did not steal anyone's job there. The company doesn't need a first officer for the cargo flights."

[Iz]

Well dude, come along on one of our flights, we have about 250 barf bags in the seat pockets <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .Thanks for your informed view on things. The companies FAR135 approved manual states that the planes may be operated officially as two-pilot aircraft and such I'm able to log the flight time. Since the ops manual is FAA approved, it's the law. Thank you very much.

[HugMonster]

Prostitute:-. .2 : to devote to corrupt or unworthy purposes : DEBASE &lt;prostitute one's talents&gt;

[Send Clowns]

Cat Driver, I recommend you read my previous posts. I made it quite clear that my choice when I finished the course and there were no jobs available was to work elsewhere. I have merely been pointing out here that working for free in "apprenticeship" or internship is not just acceptible but perfectly normal practice in many industries, and even in parts of the aviation industry, and that from their point of view these people are not working for free.. .. .For years people have taken sponsorship with a 2-year lock in to instruct as part of the deal. With the pay of instructors I find that a worse deal for the individual, butI have never seen it criticised. What I see a the basis of the criticism is not concern for the dignity of the individuals concerned, but professional pilots worried about the effect on their jobs.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 13:30: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]</small>

[Chuck Ellsworth]

S.C. :. .. .You are not alone in the problem of getting started in aviation.. .. .It is not only your generation that had to face this problem.. .. .It does seem to me however that your generation has the missguided belief that everything should be easy and unless they get instant gratification they sulk, moan and demand their right to whatever they wish at the moment.. .. .Working for no pay is detremental to everyone, except the company that is getting voluntary slave labour.. .. .I would bet the bank that if and when you get to a good paying job in the industry you would be the first screaming about how unfair it is for newcomers to drive down your industry.. .. .End of conversation for me Send Clowns.. .. .................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Ginger Tom]

I've got to back Hug Monster up on this one. He and I both worked for a company that had First Officers for whom the company was paid. The company eventually ceased operating; so if they had staff working for less than nothing, and still couldn't show a profit, what was wrong?. .. .In addition, prior to ceasing trading, they were closing bases, and making people redundant (yes, the ones they had to pay were sacked!), and the working for less than nothing F/Os were still there when I was made redundant, nearly a year before the company's demise. Hence, my attitude towards the concept of people working for nothing is somewhat coloured by personal experience.

[-273]

Nice to see that someone has to bring a person's generation into the argument. I think all older generations think that the ones after them have it easy, or that the younger generation has no respect. . .. .Kind of sad really that such broad sweeping accusations are made on a group of people based on their age.. .. .It is a pity really.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 22:08: Message edited by: -273 ]</small>

[HugMonster]

273, I assume you are being ironic in making the same generalisations?. .. .What is sad, but true, is that aviation has never been easy to get into.. .. .Yes, everyone would like to collect their brand, shiny new licence from Gatwick and walk straight into a well-paying job on a 737 (or better).. .. .The simple truth is that only a very small minority ever do. The vast majority graft, starting at the bottom and work their way up. I got my PPL in late '87. I proceeded in very short order to get the IMC, Multi and night ratings, then went to the USA to build hours, came back and did a BCPL, with just 200 hours in my logbook. My first commercial job was traffic-spotting in a PA28 for a local radio station. 2 hours morning and evening, and in the middle I instructed.. .. .I was made redundant. I worked backstage for a while in a West End Theatre, then got a job RHS of a Bandit.. .. .Made redundant again. (Gulf War). Went out to the Caribbean, spending (on and off) two and a half years out there, island-hopping in BN2's. Sounds idyllic, but many times doing in excess of 15 sectors in a day. One occasion was 23 sectors. The company record was 26. I worked damn hard.. .. .Made redundant again. Returned to the UK, got a ground job in Operations, and left, buying a 757 type rating.. .. .Aparrt from that 6-month stint in a Bandit, it was nine years before I got back into a gas turbine-powered aircraft again.. .. .Worked my way back up again, doing some Police flying and other bits and pieces, got a job on a Jetstream. Moved to the LHS. Went to ATR's as a direct-entry captain.. .. .Company put into liquidation in the aftermath of Sept. 11th. Redundant again.. .. .Not a blissfully happy tale, is it? I'm not asking for sympathy. Along the way I learned a lot, and had lots of fun.. .. .So perhaps some people think that the only way they can make their applications to airlines seem attractive is to offer their services for free. In doing so, they climb over everyone else in the industry. They may call it initiative. I call it something else.. .. .To anyone who gets a BA sponsorship, or PPRuNe/Astraeus sponsorship or any other similar scheme that has the aim of giving pilots their start in the industry, I say good luck. Such sponsorship schemes are legitimate ways to train pilots.. .. .What is not legitimate is to charge pilots to sit in an aircraft, merely because "market forces" happen to sit that way at present, give them nothing but hours in the logbook, then boot them out.. .. .Nor is it legitimate for pilots to attempt to cut the legs off their colleagues by gazumping their jobs from under them, to attempt to steal jobs from more experienced candidates. Nor is it acceptable for any airline to confuse itself about who pays for an aircraft to fly, and whether or not pilots pay them, or vice versa.. .. .If an airline cannot afford to pay all their pilots the going rate, as part of their operating costs, then they have no business being in the industry.. .. .The industry is at a low at present. It is stating to recover, and pilots will be in demand again. Such unscrupulous employers as I have mentioned above should, possibly be removed from the industry now. Don't encourage them to hang around. Stick to the honest, safe, decent, humane employers and encourage them in what they're doing instead.. .. .And to everyone out there trying to get a foot in the door, good luck. It's not easy - that's something that all pilots, of whatever generation know. But stick at it, don't throw away your standards and the prospects of your colleagues by so damaging the employment market because it's more difficult than normal right now. It will improve.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

-273 :. .. .Yeh, I guess I was a little to broad with my statement, what I should have said is I have noticed that the generation just starting in the flying industry seem to have a larger number of individuals who want it now and without getting their hands dirty so to speak. ( Might be the liberal mindset that seems to have become entrenched in a large segment of our society?? ). .. .So I will give you that much, I don't want to appear to be to biased toward the newcommers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .However to much sensitivity on your part will not make it any easier to cope with some of the realities you may face if and when you expand your flying horizons. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Back to the subject::. .. .Voluntary slavery is wrong.. .. ............... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Send Clowns]

Cat, you're still reading things into my posts that I did not write, nor I think did anyone. No-one suggested we should have things easy, in fact I think feeling they have to work for no remuneration is fairly hard. Don't attack me - I'm not the one working for free, my services come in at £25 per hour if you want to learn anything. I am currently a self-employed tutor, not a working pilot.. .. .Restating your position without supporting argument and stating that the converation is over does not constitute a successful defence of your position.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

O.K Send Clowns:. .. .I have reread all your comments and you in fact do not work for nothing in aviation.. .. .However it appears to me that you consider flying for free to be sort of an apprentiship and you seem to support such a situation.. .. .So in the grand scheme of things I guess we all have our opinions, I retract my statements regarding you.. .. .Now you go have a good day:) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Cat:)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

. . . . <small>[ 19 March 2002, 04:31: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]</small>

[Flyingspaniard]

SC - I don't think that you can compare pilots working for free with the apprenticeships you talk about.. .. .An apprenticeship implies that the apprentice doesn't know the job and will be trained by his boss/mentor. Us new pilots have already trained, and got the qualification so although we will be gaining experience it isn't as though we are learning a new trade.. .. .I have to agree with you HM in that we all have a collective responsibility to maintain the value of our profession, otherwise in the long term we can only expect our wages to drop.. .. .I have no commitments in the way of family, mortgage etc so working for nothing is something that I could do, however it doesn't mean that I should. I fully expect that one day I will be in the RHS of a jet, but I am not going to prostitute myself to get there. There are pilots out there who have built a life around the salary they have come to depend on. I can survive on instructor wages, whereas they can't.. .. .I know all wannabes are desperate to fly, but it really will be better for everybody if they get a part time job to supplement an instructor wage or a full time job that affords them enough to hour build or get that type rating. Whatever they want, but just don't work for free. It will hurt us all in the long run. Be patient and weather the storm. When it blows over, there will be a demand for us again.. .. .PS and that goes for whoever it is advertising their free services in Flight International this week as well. You must have more money than sense!. .. .And that all I have to say about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Dockjock]

Why are those companies getting commercial pilots to ride along anyway. They're not getting paid, and they obviously don't require someone with any training (otherwise the job would have value and a paycheque) so why not just get some 45 hr private pilot to sit there and throw the baggage. . .. .Actually, why not get someone with 10 hrs MS flight sim in type to pay to sit there? The ultimate video game!! You guys are embarrassing.. .. .The absolutely saddest, most pathetic aspect of the people and companies that run these schemes is that they are the ones that go out of business due to lack of funds. Hey, why not get the captains to pay to fly as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[AMEX]

Flight International this week:. .737 Pilot Available, recently licenced, New Group 1 rating on type, Canadian and US commercial Licenced, WILL WORK FOR FREE ON 737 to build experience,.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .Sorry Send Clown but this guy has already stolen your job and I hope this advert will be percieved the way it should be. Disgusting it is! To the guy who advertised, perhaps you should have thought about securing a job before investing (spending) that kind of money for a type rating. Sure if you have 5 hours on type you will be able to compete against the much more experienced and professional guys that are currently available on the market,...Not!!. .Quote:. ."For years people have taken sponsorship with a 2-year lock in to instruct as part of the deal. With the pay of instructors I find that a worse deal for the individual, butI have never seen it criticised.". .Again Send Clwon we seem to be be on a different planet. How do you do manage to see that an honest hard working, keen, flight instructor (albeit with a low salary)can be compared to someone who pays for his "employment". Yep they have it tough but it certainly shows a fair amount of commitment and determination. On top of that you seem to insinuate that this guys/girls are dergrading themselves in exercing such profession. They are not! and thanks to them, today you have learnt to fly !!!. .As for the comment about CD's reference to generations, well what can I say ?. .I am 30 and do agree with him, although I suspect there is a few years between us, people tend to go for the "quick fix" solution but I am sorry, that's not how you show how dedicated you can be. I guess I must be old fashioned but I do have a certain idea about aviation and so far I have managed to get by like that.... . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 05:03: Message edited by: AMEX ]</small>

[Bigmouth]

Iz, how about posting a copy of that FAA approved manual so we can see for ourselves. What type of aircraft was it? This sounds very fishy...

[Stealth]

Well, I think that there is no difference between pilots who work for free flying a C182 in the bush, or working for next to nothing while instructing or flying a jet for free. No difference AT ALL. They are all being abused. So, would the pilot who advertised in the Flight International appear to have morals had he offered to work for food and a place to live? Therefore, cut the crap. This world is not a fair place and the only solution is to do a total overhaul of the economy and the way it operates with some basic laws enacted to protect the rights of professionals. Only the BEST pilots should get the jobs.

[Iz]

Bigmouth, yeah sorry it's been a few years, don't keep all the manuals but if you choose not to believe me, that is truly not something I'm going to lose sleep over.. .. .Question. Why is the same job that other people get paid for, suddenly SLAVERY if you don't get paid for it?. .. .Regarding the "young people don't know what they're doing" issue.. Virtually all pilots I fly with at my airline have had a relatively easier (certainly financially) path to flying a big jet. Flight training paid for by the state. Ex-Air Force people. It's incredibly hard nowadays, the aviation training world is not the same it was 10 years ago, at least not in Europe.. .. .The company I flew a batch of hours for is still in existence and doing very well, last flying 150 planes when I checked. . .. .Some seem to think it's just the easy way to buy your way up. Nothing was easy about it. Loading and unloading freight in the blazing desert sun is not easy (still not slavery, the paid captains do the same and I enjoyed it). It was a lot less easy than the airline jobs.. .. .Climbing over the backs of others and stealing other people's jobs is just not applicable.. .. .And please get off your moral highgrounds saying that you're a bad person if you enter one of these programs. If everyone who breaks the speed limit when the cops aren't around had to be banned from this site, there'd be 20 members left.. .So please stop being so hypocritical. Those who have the good jobs, be happy for yourselves, those who are still looking, good luck. If you truly want it, you'll get it.. .. .Let me state that a pilot's capacities have NOTHING to do with whether they enrolled in such a program or not. Many people here imply that if you do that, you're a second rate pilot. . .. .Okay, I've got my egg-shield up, let the criticism flow again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Dockjock]

The ends MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT justify the means. You are a scumbag.

[Slim20]

I think some of you may be making a dodgy assumption that anyone participating in a "fly for free" scheme (usually never the case - money has to change hands somewhere) is a "bad pilot". In the current marketplace there are going to be dozens of "good" pilots looking for work. It doesn't justify the practice of companies booting out good operators on the basis of hiring cheap labour, but so far none of the objectors has come up with an example of this. . .. .By all means rail as much as you like at the injustices of a fickle industry, but don't just write people off as crap pilots for desperately selling themselves short just to get a foot in the door.

[Jabewar]

TF, I dont't think anyone is writing people off as 'crap pilots'. It is a question of ethical/moral standards. Maybe they are considered 'crap people'.. .. .Flying for free is wrong. Plain and simple. Most of these people would tell a potential employer outside aviation to get stuffed if offered the same type of scheme. So why change one's standards because one 'loves to fly'?. .. .Apprentices (at least in Canada) get paid. So the comparison is invalid. It even adds to the argument against flying for free. A transport category aircraft requires 2 qualified pilots. One is not becoming qualified while sitting in the seat. This isn't to say one is not learning. That is where pay differential for experience/years of service etc come into play.. .. .If we as a group do not stand up for ourselves, who will? We cannot expect legislation to be put in place. We are the problem! We must demand a level of respect and worth if we are to expect it! If not, it is indeed a sad statement of our "profession". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[skysheriff]

the real culprits are those flight schools/Jar ftos (like the ones advertising on this site) who make all those wannabes believe there are jobs waiting for them at the end of their training.. .This is much less applicable to the FAA system.. .It makes me sick of seeing the wannabes on the forum still fetching close to 50k (uk) for basically a dead-end.. .Once there is a glut of low-time pilots , the market forces take a upper hand. There are few commuter/taxi operators in Europe so those guys have nowhere to go.

[Iz]

Well well, it seems some people don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion. If you think I'm a scumbag based upon the fact that I flew cargo for free on a turboprop, that's your opinion and I shrug that off with ease. . .. .Saying that flying for free to gain valuable experience (which it still is -- I did it for the experience, not merely the hours I could write down in my logbook) being wrong, that's another opinion. I'm not personally threatening you or anyone so leave your emotional rants at the door please.. .. .Once again, don't give me that hypocritical "crap person" due to morals. If the only moral failure in my life is to fly for free, then I should be lucky (I don't think it's immoral). So how about the people that break the speed limit, cheat on their spouses, drink and drive (or fly), are racist or worse? Sanctimonious BS.. .. .Brings me to another point (food for a whole other topic):. .. .Would you rather have a 185-hour pilot fly the right seat of a Boeing 737 or A320, paid, flying pax, or should that be someone with actual experience, say 1500+ hours? Bearing in mind that straight outta school = zero experience, only training.

[HugMonster]

That's not the question to ask yourself.. .. .The real question is:- Which would you rather have in the right-hand seat of a 737.... .. .Situation A:-. .Someone with minimal hours who is trying to build them up the fast way, thinking that para dropping, instructing and aerial photography are beneath his dignity and he OUGHT to have a job in a nice, shiny megajet, even if he pays to do so. .. .(Whilst, in the current climate, there are large numbers of experienced jet and turboprop pilots unemployed). .. .(Whilst the airline grins to itself, pockets loads of dosh from its workforce and laughs all the way to the bank). .. .Situation B:-. .Low-houred pilots start their apprenticeship in the industry at the bottom, gain hours and experience on little stuff, gradually working their way up to the nice shiny machinery. .. .(Whilst experienced pilots, with the knowledge and experience to operate the megajet does so). .. .(Whilst airline enters a deal with its workforce, whereby they pay them, and they give airline their time and labour). .. .Is there anyone else for whom the answer seems pretty straightforward? Does anyone wonder why the airline encourages situation A?

[Iz]

Well it's your opinion that that is THE question.. .. .Where does the assumption come from that people like moi find aerial photography, paradropping etc. beneath us? You know that to assume... Well it makes an ... out of you and me. So stuff it.. .. .Facts. How many low-time pilots in my country (Netherlands): 500+. Number of jobs in general aviation in my country that are currently available: Maybe 25. Can't go to the US, no work permit, or to Germany, UK etc since the cost of living would be too high, besides, there's low time pilots in all those countries as well. So what do you suggest to position yourself in a market like this? Sit at home and forge my log book? That would be bad morals.. .You come up with the perfect solution, I'd love to hear it.. .. .I HAVE worked for a regional airline flying Brasilia's (paid) after my internship in the US.. .. .There are plenty of (good) pilots flying at my airline and those around Europe that have gained experience through either hour building programs in the US or schemes like the ATP program (CTC etc). The ones that are hired are good pilots and good people, regardless of whether they paid for training or not.

[HugMonster]

The solution is that you don't degrade the profession and the salaries and conditions of everyone in it by attempting to jump the queue. Doing so is simply cutting your nose off the spite your face.. .. .Last time I checked, the Netherlands were part of the EU. So you can go anywhere in the Union to work. If there IS no work available, don't try to steal it from others.. .. .Sorry, but I find your lack of regard for anyone but yourself highly distatseful.

[Jabewar]

Sorry IZ, the issue isn't what the entry level jobs are in your part of the world, it is whether pilots should compete for them based on who can afford to fly free the longest.. .. .When (if you are not already)you go to the left seat, will you fly for free to gain valuable captain experience? We are all gaining experience as we progress through our careers, when is the point one should get paid for it? Maybe I have been cheating companies by getting paid as I have gained experience! You work hard for, and perhaps pay a great deal for, the licence that allows you to get paid to fly, don't minimize it by working for free. . .. .One would only work for free if one thinks they are not worth being paid. I'm sorry for those that think so little of their ablilities.. .. .This is an emotional topic (your posts, IZ, seem to contain some) because if, after 15 years, I can't get a job because someone with lesser experience will do it for nothing and I won't, I will be P.O.'d!!!

[Iz]

HugMonster, my lack of regard for anyone but myself? Haha I have personally helped one person directly to a job for a regional carrier and another one on a jet. Both paid. I will try to help anyone! . .Don't attack me personally for screwing up the job market. That's something the companies do. It seems you wouldn't want to work for a morally corrupt company anyway, right?. .Besides, when I was flying there, there were plenty of jobs for US pilots, it was 1997, flight school were short on instructors because the regionals sucked them dry.. .. .Guys, I haven't stolen anyone's job. Please, how many times do I have to write this? If there's no foreign FO in that seat, they won't hire anyone for money (it's 135 CARGO and they have their ops manual set up so that all flights are two-crew except when the chief pilot says it can be flown by one, FAA-approved so it's the law -- I can't help it). But I'm sure if you apply for a job with them, they will hire you as captain. Anyone want? Mail me for their address. No joke.. .. .Jabewar, yes I'm sorry if I do get a little emotional. I still sleep well at night but being personally attacked on this forum does make my bloodpressure rise a bit. There are literaly thousands of people who have flown for free and I seem to be the only one who dares to tell the other side of the story and explain things. To explain how things really are and what the facts are.. .. .Fact is, nowadays in Europe, there are ready-made all-in flight training programs from zero to x-amount of flight hours. You pay for a package which includes all flight training, theory and a bulk of flight experience. It's not like "hey, I've got my licence, what should I do now? oh let's go and steal someone's job". It's all arrange before we even set one foot in a plane. And that's straight out of high school for most.. .. .So please, can we just take off our anger-vision and read through what I'm saying with a bit of rationality?

[Iz]

Jabewar, reading the last sentence of your last post again:. ."..because if, after 15 years, I can't get a job because someone with lesser experience will do it for nothing and I won't, I will be P.O.'d!!". .. .Would you rather have a person straight out of flight school with 185 flight hours go in and get that 737 job for $5000/mo? Or would you then say "okay, it's all good, he gets paid so I don't mind".. .. .This happens a lot because airlines have deals with flight schools. Or their hiring guy is just good friends with the prez of the school. Many super-low time pilots get hired this way into 737's and A320's in Europe while guys at the regionals with 1000's of turbine hours are stuffed. How's that for fairness? And still everyone gets paid.. .. .Come on, honestly... . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 09:28: Message edited by: Iz ]</small>

[Overtemp]

..and its the people in situation A that make me angry and sick. The airlines take the high ground and say they want people from Situation B, but all I see is employing Sitaution A.. .. .Perhaps I should get a new log book, and write out my first 200-300 hrs again and leave it at that and see what happens.. .. .So many of us try for so long and make so many sacrifices to get to our goal, if we get there, and we truely know the worth of the job when we get there, to ourselves, not just financially, and appreciate it. And someone walks straight in just straight out of being qualified and says hmmm think I'll give this a go for a while with no concept or value of the position they have been placed in.. .. .I'm f****d off!

[Bigmouth]

I´d still like to see where the FAA says it´s ok to log time as an F.O. when none is required.. .If you´re going to claim this you better back it up.. .If you´re riding along for the experience, fine, but logging it? What kind of training did you receive prior to riding along? What was your job description? What type of aircraft was it (surely you´ll remember that)? . .ANYBODY can work for free or pay for a job.

[Sick Squid]

This, PFT and similar issues always raise the blood pressure in here somewhat. But a reminder, folks.. debate the issues strongly by all means, from whichever side you wish to dress, but DO NOT GET PERSONAL in your arguments. . .. .And no 'He said, she said!" posts, please. Just carry on responsibly. Lets not lose a valuable topic in a morass of... of, er...ahhh, can't think of a good enough word, you know what I mean anyway!

[HugMonster]

Iz, I am quite sure there were plenty of jobs in the USA in 1997. However, things have moved on a little since then, or didn't you notice? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .Nobody that I have seen has condemned airline-sponsored training schemes. Cadet Schemes are extremely common, and will return in due course. In these, the airline selects a bunch of wannabes, and sponsors them through flight training school, then puts them in an aircraft at the end of it. Everyone is happy, everyone gets paid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .This is, however, a little different from a low-houred wannabe jumping the queue with unscrupulous employers, who have hitherto had to pay FO's to fly. Along comes wannabe with a load of money in his pocket, and offers to pay the airline to fly the aircraft because he wants the hours in his logbook. "Whoopee!", says the airline, drops previous FO from the roster, who goes home disconsolate to his wife and kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> , whilst far more inexperienced wannabe gets his hands on his dream toy.. .. .See what I'm saying?. .. .You point out that the airlines encourage people to do this. Well, blow me down with a feather. Really??? What on earth can possess them to do that, I wonder? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Put simply, airlines will try to get away with everything they can, no matter what. That is why we have legislation on a whole raft of matters - maintenance, safety, pilots' qualifications... Having their workforce pay them for the time-on-type should be no different.. .. .I say again - Pilots flying for free for the "experience" are STEALING jobs from other people, and degrading the profession into the bargain.

[Jabewar]

Iz, yes that scenario would be more palatable. Sure I would rather have the job, and the reality is that if the airline is going to pay they will likely recruit the best candidate they can for the money. If, however, someone with much less experience gets the job with the same conditions at least it was an even playing field.. .. .The question was asked 'what should I do in this job enviornment'?(that was the gist of it I believe). Like any other depressed industry and as many(myself included) in this industry have done, one perseveres until the job market comes back to ones level. I have, and may again, work outside aviation while I wait. No one ever said it would be easy (seems nothing really worthwhile ever is) but one must consider the overall picture and the longterm health of our profession.. .. .For me it is like being stuck in traffic on the freeway and watching someone cruise along on the shoulder. It bugs the hell out of me, but in the end I can only stand by my beliefs of what is right.. .. .As with every other cycle in this industry we will all be calling 'V1, Rotate' in time so we don't need to sell ourselves short. IMHO.. .. .It's spring break here so I am going to take the family to a cabin, forget about all this and play in the snow!! Have a good debate all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Iz]

Hugmonster, I totally understand your opinion. I started defending myself since I was personally under attack by you, among others. So I try to tell you why I didn't steal a job. I was there for a year max when the industry was in an economic high, I know that it's not the same right now but I have nothing to do with that.. .. .I find it a little sad to say that the airlines that encourage these schemes can't help it because they're simply economic institutions. . .. .I agree that there are schemes that really only squeeze money out of young low-time pilots. And they are disgusting!! Some companies in the flight training and small airline biz border on the criminal.. .. .However, the position that I filled was never a job vacancy (like I said over and over). If I did fill someone's job spot, I wouldn't have gotten the intern-visa from your INS anyway. And the INS goes out of their way to make sure foreigners do not take up jobs for Americans, we all know that.. .. .Bigmouth, yes I do remember what aircraft I flew. So you believe that I'm retarded as well now? I don't need to prove anything to you. I have better things to do then to tell you all lies.

[LUVMY146]

Great thread guys,. .. .Plain and simple. I worked hard to get where I am now and I really disagree with the idea of others working for free, is bad for us all.. .. .Its bad enough 'buzzing'around at the low cost end, let alone being up aginst free labour.. .. .Thats it, me said my bit.

[Diesel8]

Well, the INS may do a lot of things, but it is apparent that in this case, they did not protect anyone from anything. The "airline" in question, set up their FO jobs as a "training" facility and somehow managed to persuade the Feds, that this was cool.. .. .Personally, I do not care how you got about your hours, but suffice to say, I would much prefer not to do it this way and I did not.. .. .Secondly, re. the suitablity of the candidate, you could be the worlds greatest pilot, but unless you coughed up the dough: No soup for you!. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 00:07: Message edited by: Diesel8 ]</small>

[HugMonster]

Iz, if you were flying in the USA as what (in the UK) used to be called a Pilot's Assistant, and the aircraft were certified single-crew then I'm perfectly prepared to make my peace with you.. .. .By the way, I get the impression you think I'm on the western side of the pond. Not so. UK-resident.. .. .I would, however, be interested to know what aircraft type it was. I assume something like a Twotter or Bandit, both of which were originally designed as single-pilot aircraft? In the UK, for purposes of public transport, whether it be passenger or freight, a two-crew aircraft is a two-crew aircraft. Full stop. You may sit in the right-hand seat of single-crew aircraft, if you have an RT licence you may even operate the boxes for the guy in the other seat. But on no account may you log the hours if you are operating as a non-required member of the crew.. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 22:23: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</small>

[Capt PPRuNe]

As this thread is getting close to the 100 post limit I am closing it. Feel free to carry on a MkII version. I suggest you use the Terms & Endearment Forum.