Most farcical lesson yet

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The detail is some dual circuits followed by solo circuits; which I haven't been able to do the last several booked lessons due to weather. TAF looked OK apart from the PROB30 TEMPO G36KT.

Actual weather is fine, none of the showers look too close to the circuit. But just as we're going out of the door we're handed a strong wind alert. F**k, says the instructor, we'll go anyway and see what happens.

So we get in a plane. I ask the instructor if the starting problems are usual for this a/c, he says no problem. I ask whether it matters that the suction guage is way above the top of the green arc, he says we'll report it when we get down.

We fly two circuits. On the third climb out it's the instructor, not me, who notices that the oil pressure needle is on the red line (whoops - from now on I'll be more careful about those checks, you learn something every time). So he takes over, lands and taxis to the maintenance hanger. Won't charge you for that last circuit he says, and we get another plane.

After extending downwind far enough that we get decent separation from the airliner that took off about when we wanted to turn base leg I'm eventually on final having flown a very odd shaped circuit. We then notice that whilst we've been faffing round changing planes one of those showers has got rather nearer ... ATC calls up in friendly chatty manner and tells us that it's gusting something like 26kt in all directions on the surface.

I keep going, we get thrown about a bit, occasional blobs of heavy rain. After a bit the instructor takes control - at that point I was still happy flying the approach but ... about one and a half seconds after the instructor took over we were thrown about so violently that I would have given him control then anyway. (I've been thrown about much worse than that in a light aircraft, but not when I was flying and not anywhere near that close to the ground.)

By now we are being thrown about all over the place, and I'm not finding that easy to see the runway through the now continuous heavy rain with just the normal runway lights; ATC turn on some more so the place is lit up like a Christmas tree. Even though we're still lurching sideways and up and down when we're ten feet above the ground the instructor does a nice smooth landing; quite impressive.

So, four circuits flown, two landings done, only the first two circuits charged for.

I guess it wasn't a complete waste of time and money, because I did learn to take looking at the Ts&Ps more seriously.

[Fuji Abound]

Well what a good experience. You could spend your whole time training towards your PPL (and I assume that is why you were with an instructor) in benign conditions, whereas you now have first hand experience of Mother nature springing a few surprises. It will stand you in good sted.

I never could understand those people who pass their IMC having never seen the inside of a cloud throughout their training!

[HugoFirst]

Ain't no such thing as a wasted lesson, it's all experience. Some people don't realise that aircraft can still fly when it's not CAVOK.

[matspart3]

Re-read your post...it'll show you how much you actually learnt today.

I did most of my circuit flying in windy conditions and got a bit caught out on my GFT when the wind was flat calm and I kept landing nearer the upwind threshold than the landing one!

The weather in the UK sucks and you will get caught out again...at least you've experienced it already...rather than a farce, I think today's lesson was actually quite valuable.

that said, I wasn't brave enough to get the Cub out today!!:O

[Dop]

Nice. Not had one quite that bad, but when I was doing circuits we did get one day where it was really gusty and bouncy.
I was having to do a lot of work trying to adjust for gusts, and I think it was on the second time round my instructor said I could stop on the next one if I thought this was too much.

So I said that I was OK with it, and I reckoned it would be good experience in poor weather conditions.

Admittedly, my landings were somewhat off the centre line, but at least I was on the runway!

[Sensible]

Hmmm, plenty of time to learn about windshear, crosswinds, gusts, haze, turbulence once clutching ones own PPL. I'm not sure that training in anything other than cavok is real value for money for pre solo students! Master the basics before learning the tricky stuff. The tricky bits of experience come whether you want them or not - eventually! My opinion is that G20 straight down the rway is about max for a student!

[Pilotage]

Sounds like some of the best value for money in terms of lessons learned per pound I've ever heard of.

P

[Whirlybird]

OK, not something you'd choose to do. But an excellent learning experience all the same. Without such things, you end up as a new PPL thinking a little bit more wind and a few gusts is no big deal and you can handle it. Now you know what it's really like. And as you say, you know those checks on Ts and Ps are there for a purpose, not to overload your memory and sound good.

I seriously worry about the title you chose for this thread....if you really meant it.

[topcat450]

If you're going to experience a bit of rough weather then far better having an instructor next to you.

It'll also serve as a good yard-stick in future...when you look out...desperate to 'just do a couple of circuits before the weather closes in' you'll probably think back to that day and think twice before going up. :ok: But it sounds like you've got a good club...where they VOLUNTARILY said we wont charge for the last circuit.

[KCDW]

I suspect the thread title is right.

Not sure about the value myself. How many GA PPL’s would proceed with a flight with a TAF of “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”?

Moderate Xwind experience – most definitely is beneficial as a learning environment, but I just don’t see how a very blustery day can be…

[topcat450]

I have to disagree with KCDW here,

"How many GA PPL’s would proceed with a flight with a TAF of “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”

- well exactly..how many would? some wouldn't,..but I bet someone, somewhere when wanting to get home would try it...Now Gertrude knows from first hand experience what its like and will know not to play with it.

But then again...thats just my take on things

:O

[Whirlybird]

KCDW,

When I was a very new PPL I went down to the airfield two weekends in a row, and on both days decided not to fly due to marginal weather. The second time a nearly-qualified student implied quite strongly that I was a wimp, saying he couldn't wait to get out by himself. Judging by the nods of agreement as he spoke, he wasn't alone. But I didn't go because I'd had my QXC cancelled in similar wx; I'd persuaded my instructor I could cope; then not been able to land in the gusty crosswind when he checked me out. It was a real eye-opener for me at the time. Does that answer your question of "how many" etc?

As I said, not something you'd choose, or spend hours doing. But four circuits, and only paying for two! And learning from experience just what a difference the wx can make. Sounds good to me.

[KCDW]

Whirly, Topcat450

I guess I must be a bit of a fair weather flyer / wimp :). But, I still disagree (free world - right :) ). Let’s recap…

“about one and a half seconds after the instructor took over we were thrown about so violently that I would have given him control then anyway.”

“gusting something like 26kt in all directions on the surface”

“By now we are being thrown about all over the place, and I'm not finding that easy to see the runway”

And this is aside from the instructor’s rather slack attitude.

Seriously guys, Gertrude the Wombat could have got the same level of ‘instruction’ sitting in that nightmare whirlitzer at Biggin Hill Airfair on a rainy day.

Ps has anybody tried that whirlitzer and not felt physically sick? :\

[HelenD]

You definatly have a good club not charging you for some flying time, though whether its flyable is a matter of opinion. I personally would have gone up with an instructor in that while I was training to gain the experience. I would probably go up now with an instructor if one is available. As for flying solo with that forcast I definatly wouldnt in a PA28 but I may consider it in a PA38 after taking advice.

[Final 3 Greens]

How many GA PPL’s would proceed with a flight with a TAF of “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”?

Not me. I use a rule of thumb that when the mean wind speed exceeds 50% of the clean stall speed, I don't go.

My a/c stalls clean at about 50kias. It's reasonable to assume that the forecast was something like 20G36, so the mean speed would have been 28kts.

A few hundred hours of experience teaches me that this takes controllability to an area of the envelope that I don't want to play in, especially in this low powered aeroplane where a GA is always marginal with windshear about.

As it happens, my day job inolves designing and delivering training courses and I disagree quite strongly that this was a great learning experience for the student on the evidence presented.

There does not seem to have been a brief about the effects of strong winds and the techniques for dealing with these (we know the strong wind warning was received just before boarding) and reading between the lines, Gertrude was somewhat alarmed by the experience (which is a healthy sign.)

The learning cycle involves understanding the theory, applying the theorey practically, experiencing the effects and then refelcting on the integrated experience to make sense/learn.

Where was this amount of thought applied by the instructor?

Result, a confused Getrude and Whirly, I think her thread title calls it right when you look through her eyes.

[Holdposition]

TAF =“PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”!!!!

Anyone who goes up in that just for social flying belongs to the " Needy or Greedy" club.

Nevertheless I do agree that valuable lessons were learnt and one day one might look back and thank god you had the experience of the wind, how many PPL's go though the course without getting the blast of x-winds, quite a number it would seem.

[pondlife]

I think that there was something missing from the lesson if the facts are as reported - choice.
I assume that your instructor knew the conditions to be safe and within his own capabilities, then it should be up to the student wether to go or not. The student can only make that decision with a good brief on what to expect.
If the instructor considered that the conditions were safe but that the student may not like them, or may not learn what he was expecting to learn, then I think it vitally important to give the student all the information he needs to make his own decision. This means fully briefing the student on what to expect and what he may and may not get out of the lesson. After that it's the student's money and his choice. Looks like you didn't have that information with which to make the decision.

Of course, this all assumes that the conditions are known to be within the instructor's and aeroplane's ability - if not, or if it's unclear, then it's an absolute no-brainer.

By the way, it's not clear wether you thought that the lesson was valuable - what did you make of it?

[In Altissimus]

Strange how this one has polarised opinion.

I was up (and down, and side-to-side) at the exact same time at Stapleford doing my first familiariation flight in a new type. [No longer BlokeInAnArcher, or even BlokeFormerlyKnownAsBlokeInAnArcher... :rolleyes: ]

It was certainly a 'learning experience' but, as I said to the FI over a pint or three afterwards, I would never have gone up in those conditions on my own. I did learn a lot about how the plane handles at the edge of the envelope and my current personal limitations in handling it.

To my point: I wasn't scared because during my early 'training' (in a different place) I had several experiences like Gertrude's. I think it will stand you in good stead and help your decision-making in the future.

Although I hate the phrase, I found learning to fly really was a 'character building' experience. I was shocked about some of the things it revealed to me in my character (and I'm not talking about any drinking-related incidents...), and in particular how high my tolerance for bullsh*t was when someone called themselves an instructor.

Notwithstanding my comments about the value of this particular experience, my advice to Gertrude is to take control of your
flight training - no-one else will!

Good Luck.

[Pilotage]

An observation, or probably more a question.

There seems no question of what our nameless instructor did, and that it's a valuable learning experience for Gertrude. The question in my mind is why?

- Was he/she was suffering pressonitis, or didn't consider sensible operating limits and endangered an aircraft, themselves and a student?

- Or did he/she judge that it was within their own personal limits, and that it was an opportunity to safely demonstrate to a student what unpleasant conditions can actually do to you and hopefully inject a useful lesson that could save their life later?


If the former, I'd suggest that the instructor should be shot - slowly! If the latter, then they are probably a thoughtful and competent instructor of the type we should all hope to learn from occasionally.

Of-course, who if asked will admit to the former?

P

[poetpilot]

Along the lines of Pilotage's post.......

I was potentially in a similar position last Saturday. Having flown up the country from Popham, I was positioning to land at Barton when a squall came through. Previously, I'd heard someone reporting 40 kts in a squall at Sleap, so when Barton reported 12 kts I thought "hmmm, I bet it'll get worse than that any second."

On turning final 27, I started getting bounced around as the wind started gusting up, but still only being reported at 16 kts 200 deg.

However:
Knowing the forecast was for squalls & associated gusts
Knowing what had happened at Sleap
Experiencing windshear and turbulence at 500 feet

... I elected to power up climb away and hold off to the north for 5 minutes whilst the shower went through. The tower told me when the wind was settling again, back I go and bingo, nice smooth approach, nice landing, no panic, no problem. End of an enjoyable flight.

I would suggest instructor in question in the original scenario wanted to show who was in charge, but in doing so he chose to challenge Mother Nature & ignore the bit in the forecast that said TEMPO.

In the particular scenario he just about won, but at what cost? Next time, he could do it again and lose. Worse still, his erstwhile student, now qualified may well make the wrong decision and lose.

[Ludwig]

I think that this thread has thrown up a couple of interesting issues about PPL training and PPL trainees. What is clear is that different people learn in different ways; for my part, when I was doing the PPL course, I flew in all manner of conditions with instructors whom I saw as godlike. Confidence is built by such things especially when one is fortunate enough to have instructors who never give cause to quetsion their godlike status. WHether this was luck, pure skill by the instructor or ignorance on my part is irrelevant. I had confidence, we flew in ****ty conditions, I learned a lot. (Not just what I could safley fly in, but also what was beyond my skill level).

A N Other ppl trainee, may have been set back by flying in bad conditions as a result of fear, poor instuction, lack of faith in the instructor etc, and AN Yetanother may have taken it as a gungho signal to fly in anything (and be a statistic) Penis asbestos.

Where this drivel is leading is that one student's excellent learning exerince is anothers terrifing waste of money, it's up to the instructor to use his or her skill to appraise the learning style of each student.

Looking back, I firmly believe there is no such thing as a waste of experince, even if you did not enjoy it. If you do not learn anything from it, stop flying now before you kill yourself.:cool:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

OK, maybe I should have included some smilies.

I'm sure the instructor was well within his capabilities on this flight and totally safe. I am aware of the learning opportunities of such an experience; and I know what I'd have done on my own, which would have been to fly around for a few minutes and see if the shower went away, and if not divert. (Although my current retraining hasn't got as far as brushing up my nav skills I think I could have followed the motorway for five miles to the obvious alternate.)

What I failed to mention was that this took place the day before the local elections, and really it was a bit of a cheek for me to book a flying lesson that afternoon anyway when I had about 27,000 other things to do before going to bed in terms of moving round people, bits of paper, data, other stuff, ready for polling day. I spent 2.5 hours at the airport and learnt to take Ts&Ps seriously (I've seen showers and gusts before) instead of the expected 1.5 hours doing solo circuits. Yes, that might one day save my life, but I'd have preferred that lesson on another day. Let's remember the smilies this time:;) Oh, and my mate won the election, so I got away with taking the time off :D :D :D

[Final 3 Greens]

Ludwig

If you do not learn anything from it

You always learn something, but the question is whether the learning is valid/appropriate/helpful.

e.g. if you have a boss at work who dismisses every suggestion you make, then you learn not to bother.

There is an assumption on this thread that learning per se is a good thing, but as a professional in the area of consulting/management education I know that it is not.

Gertrude's second reply suggests that there is little, if any, damage from this detail and that's great; however, unless there is some critical information missing, the instructor didn't do a great job and I'm amazed that some people think that the flying club was 'benevolent' in not charging the time when their aircraft was 'unfit for the purpose intended' due to low oil pressure (See the relevant consumer legislation.) The club was being commercially clever in my opiion and all credit to them for this.

I once had an FBO in the States argue that I should pay for cancelling a detail in an Arrer with a prop governer seal failure, which became evident when a huge pool of oil was discovered on the ground, with deposits all over the engine supports etc during the prre-flight.

they soon changed their mind when I called the FAA inspector on the field.

[Ludwig]

F3G

if you have a boss at work who dismisses every suggestion you make, then you learn not to bother

You see, that's what I mean, different people learn different things from an experience. In your example, the lesson is not don't bother, the lesson is that working for someone else sucks:)

[Flyin'Dutch']

What a bunch of wet towels are there about in GA flying!

:yuk:

Or at least that is what you could conclude from reading this thread.

Of course everyone has to fly within the limits of their experience and comfort level but G has been allowed to push the envelope a bit under the (what I read to be) experienced guidance of a good instructor.

Just because other people have more experience and are therefore happy to fly in conditions which are outside your personal level does not necessarily mean that they are idiots.

Way too much judgementing going on here.

:O

I think that anyone who runs a flying school and does not charge when things like these happen needs commending and can hardly be accused of pressonitis.

May be some folk on here need to get out more often and fly in more challenging conditions, if need be with an instructor, rather than just do some armchair driving.

:ok:

FD

[Final 3 Greens]

Just because other people have more experience and are therefore happy to fly in conditions which are outside your personal level does not necessarily mean that they are idiots.

Quite agree, but then again it doesn't mean that they aren't either. :)

[KCDW]

“What a bunch of wet towels are there about in GA flying!”

FD – I would say that was a pretty judgmental statement too!

As some have said on the thread, it is clear people have different views on what is safe and what isn’t.

Maybe we could construct a poll on this one. We are missing a lot of information, but with all things being equal…

“It’s a blustery day, with a variable wind, would you fly (in a light GA aircraft - C152, PA28 or similar) with a TAF for the next few hours being “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT.” ?”

Possible answers could be:

· Of course I would, you “wet blanket”
· You must be a raving “idiot”, never in a million years.

I’ve deliberately made it black and white, as a compromise “possibly” answer, will probably attract the vast majority of votes due to the lack of information.

Just a fun poll to find out which camp we naturally fall into.

People up for it? Any suggestions before I post?

[rustle]

Any suggestions before I post?

It might help to create a more realistic forecast that PROB30 TEMPO G36 ;)

PROB30 means it probably won't happen, but the MetMan has covered his ass.

You need to know the rest of the weather before you can decide, but at least the mean wind

So if you said:

EG** 021732Z 021720 18018KT 9999 SCT020 BKN040 PROB30 TEMPO 1719 19025G36KT

and the available runways were 16/34 only...

[Fuji Abound]

KCDW - funny, was just thinking of commenting on the conditions.

Well to stir the pot, my first inclination was just as yours - we just do not have sufficient information to make an informed comment.

Gertrude said something like the wind was all over the place. With respect to Gertrude, this was unlikely to literally be the case - he may have been using poetic license to get the debate going.

Hopefully we can assume the instructor would not have landed if the wind was way outside the cross wind limits of the aircraft, particularly given it would seem he could have held off and waited for it too abate.

We can assume there was some sheer on the approach, and this would be expected given the conditions and the description. While sheer is not predictable by any means, presumably the instructor is likely to be very familiar with the approach and would have a good idea in those conditions when and where sheer might be experienced at that airport.

We are therefore left with the instructor flying an approach where the wind was within crosswind limits, and possibly with a small or no cross wind component, a lengthy runway (after all an airliner had just departed), and probably some sheer on the approach that he expected.

If all of that is true, it seems to me for an experienced pilot the pilot was well within limits. Moreover, if the wind was straight down the runway it maybe, subject to the extent of the sheer, the approach was unexceptional.

Of course, as with everything it is relative. I recollect a recent approach in similar conditions. I know as a new PPL I would have been sweating more than a bit and thinking what the hell had I done. A lot of other pilots clearly felt the same - the airport was unusually quiet despite the weather being clear and the flying conditions very pleasant. Above 2,000 feet it was as smooth as silk! The approach, given some experience, was unexceptional, albeit there was some sheer and the wind was strong and gusty.
As to the training experience I remind well an approach, maybe not dissimilar, that was pushing my limits as a new PPL. Why did I take it on - because I had not experienced strong and gusty conditions during my training - I had little idea the extent of the impact they could have. Seems to me a good instructor will on occasions intentionally allow you to get into conditions which are beyond your envelope. In so doing you will know the environment is unforgiving, something you may not be as aware as you should if all your training is in benign conditions.

[Lowtimer]

I dunno, Rustle, in my experience if a weather phenomenon it's a Bad Thing and it's advertised as PROB 30, it usually seems to happen!
(tongue only slightly in cheek!)

[Final 3 Greens]

KCDW

EG** 021732Z 021720 18018KT 9999 SCT020 BKN040 PROB30 TEMPO 1719 19025G36KT

Further to Rustle' suggestion, it might be an idea to include the heavy showers that Gertrude described, so what about....

EG** 021732Z 021720 18018KT 9999 SCT020 BKN040 RASH PROB30 TEMPO 1719 19025G36KT SCT018 CB +RASH

[Evo]

PROB30 means it probably won't happen, but the MetMan has covered his ass.


I got stuck on the ground under a PROB30 TSGR once after I figured the same thing. :)

Someone told me that a good rule of thumb for the low-hours PPL is; PROB30 - assume it's going to happen somewhere in the area and be prepared to cope with it (divert or don't go). PROB40 - assume it's going to happen over the airfield. It's possibly overcautious, but better to be down here wishing ...etc. etc.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Somebody once explained to me how pro30 is generated, it's quite surreal.

The Met Office has a series of computers running subtly different weather prediction programs based upon current data. Each program is maintained by a different team, who are all basically trying to out-do each other for accuracy.

If 30% of the programs say that something will happen, and 70% say it won't, that gets listed as a prob30.

G

[tmmorris]

Maybe I'm a wuss, but as a 100hr PPL with a shiny new IMC, I decided not to try practice holds & NDB approaches on Thursday on the strength of an ATIS reporting 20G30kt at 40 degrees off the runway; clearly one or two of the instructors felt I should have gone, but didn't actually say so. 30kt at 40deg is a 20kt crosswind, so if it had actually been that bad I would have been in trouble...

FWIW I'd certainly not be going anywhere with reported 25G36...

Tim

[rustle]

Hi Tim,

I understand your comment about the 40* off r/w QDM equals a 20Kt X-wind, therefore don't fly.

If it was 25G36KT straight down the runway would you fly?

What about 0G11KT straight down the runway?

Just curious if it is the G-factor or the (relatively) higher numbers that make the difference in decision making...

[KCDW]

Like the proper TAF idea.

The key to this though, as everyone has spotted, is the horrid gusts at PROB30, so this poll will identify the chancers amongst us :O

I'll set it up....

and just how do you do that?

I seem to have lost the capability, or was this taken away recently?

[Final 3 Greens]

Rustle

Interesting question.

I wouldn't take on 25G36 'straight down the track' in a Pup 100, but 0G11 (although pretty rare) would be fine, as the mean wind speed would only be 5.5kts.

Bumpy ride - probably, safe, yes. I'd probably stay a little high on final, maybe even do a glide approach to store a bit of potential energy in case of shear and a -11 in the worst case, but with decisive power and control inputs no probs.

However, the cause of the 0G11 might give me an issue, for example of it was related to CB activity overhead I might decide to hold off for a while and let it clear.

I tend to be a little cautious with PROB forecasts, having managed to penetrate an unforecast CB embedded in a stratus layer and it made me realise that low prob can still be pretty bad when it actually occurs ;)

CBs in VMC should be no problem to avoid so a PROB is less concerning so long as you keep your eyes open, but its harder with winds in my experience, which can develop quite rapidly when they do arrive.

[FlyingForFun]

I'm not sure that "0G11" is actually possible. The first part is the mean wind speed. So if it's gusting to 11, then in order for the mean to be zero there must be periods of negative wind. Hmm....

As for the PROB30 - in the forecast given, it's actually a PROB30 TEMPO. In fact, although I don't have a load of TAFs to hand to check this out on, I don't think there are very many PROB30's that aren't TEMPO's as well (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). In other words, if this farely unlikely (30% probability) event does happen, it won't be for very long (less than an hour). So as long as you've got enough fuel to hang around until it dies down, what's the problem?

FFF
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