FISOs - what are they for?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

So.....

We flew down to a farm strip in most rural Shropshire today, me, the Red Chippy, and and a guest pilot in the back seat. Throttled right back, flap set and power down low, we wove between the farms and hamlets so as not to upset the nimbys, skimmed the right edge of the wood, straightend at 30 feet on short final, and set down like a feather on the close-mown grass.

We shut down the idling Gipsy in this idylic spot, and enjoyed the glorious scenery and the silence, broken only by delightful birdsong.

And no RT.

The return: right turn as soon as we are airborn out over the edge of the strip, and a weaving climb out for the same reason as our carefull arrival. Lovely sight-seeing trip over Shropshire free of radio chatter. Minimal, sensible, short exchanges with Manch on 119.4 in the Low Level Route (not even neccessary, but a joy to participate in because they are so well conducted and so concise).

Change to our home field fequency at Thelwall.

Chatter, chatter, chatter, chatter non stop chatter on the RT. AB do this, BA do that, CB report here, BC this, DE that.

*Why*, for heaven's sake??

Non stop RT all the way into the overhead, round the circuit, and onto the runway - and beyond. As we taxied in for fuel my back seat guest, quite unpromted by any comment from me (I had made none), intoned "Sierra Lima breath in. Sierra Lima breath out, Sierra Lima breath in. Sierra Lima breath out".

What in heck is going on??? Why does this small grass field need non-stop micro-controlling by FISOS?

The fact is - IT DOESN'T.

Let's get a sense of proportion back into GA. Let's let pilots do what they do well - make descisions for themselves. Let's just just let them *get-on-with-it*.


SSD

[Flash0710]

They are fine unless they are at

a. Lydd

B, Elstree

Most other places have a vague idea of the contents of the cap 410

[Prof Denzil Dexter]

......and Redhill, until they replaced it with Redhill TWR, but still as arrogant as ever..Ho hum

[StrateandLevel]

The role of the FISO is to provide information to facilitate the safe movement of aircraft within an ATZ, and of vehicles and aircraft on the manoeuvering area.

A FISO is not permitted to control aircraft in the air, not even micro-control! and may not refuse entry to the ATZ.

They may control aircraft and vehicles on the prescribed parts of the manoeuvering area.

Pilots are required to make decisions for themselves at aerodromes with AFIS.

[Hilico]

'SBlood, is this kind of thing STILL going on? Anyone remember Mr Pascoe at Ipswich? You would have thought it was LHR. I just used to turn the volume down. To my knowledge, no-one crashed.

[BEagle]

I'm not sure what's worse - verbal diarrhoea from FISOs or the absence of anything at all at known busy aerodromes. There's an aerodrome near here which allegedly has an A/G service - yet many times I've called them on the way in only to get a deafening silence. When they're meat-bombing, it's handy to know what's going on to sequence the arrival - and not just to be told on final that 'We WILL be dropping in 1 minute'.......

Personally, I reckon that an aerodrome which has simultaneous gliding, parachuting and light aeroplane flying shouldn't be permitted to do so unless it has either an A/G radio operator or preferably a FISO on duty during promulgated hours of such activity. I'm not that keen on taking-off with parachutists landing all around me about whom I knew nothing as happened once to me at this aerodrome!

[Thrifty van Rental]

I think I see a man with a bee in his bonnet (I hope that's right. English slang always worries me)

I am not a big fanatic for using the radio when enjoying myself in the Yak, but even I can see that there are occasions when a trained individual on the ground can help everybody concerned.

In fact, your FISO system is much better than ours. In France, our A/G people are basically unlicensed and the quality is far more variable than your FISOs.

When I fly over to England, my simple response when a FISO oversteps their authority is to say:

"F-xxxx. Please confirm that your callsign is ABC Information and that you are offering a Flight Information Service only." That has never failed. :ok:

TvR

[Mike Cross]

Among other things the Rules of the Air Regulations 1991 state:-
(2) An aircraft shall not fly, take off or land within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome to which this paragraph applies unless the commander of the aircraft has obtained the permission of the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome or, where there is no air traffic control unit, has obtained from the aerodrome flight information unit at that aerodrome information to enable the flight within the zone to be conducted with safety or, where there is no air traffic control unit nor aerodrome flight information unit, has obtained information from the air/ground radio station at that aerodrome to enable the flight to be conducted with safety.

So, if it is within the published hours of operation and there is radio, you have to speak to them, whether they are a/g or AFIS.

So why pick on FISO's? In any walk of life there are people, who try to overstep their authority (traffic wardens, event stewards, local councillors.....) and the a/g operator is every bit as capable of doing it as the AFISO. Know the rules and object if they are being broken.

At least an AFISO has received formal training and has a license that can be taken away if he misbehaves. If you feel he is operating outside his authority, speak to the CAA and they may have a word in his ear.


Mike

[Airbedane]

Good call TvR.

I too have a problem with too much chat on the RT. But unfortunately, we live in a duty-of-care society and if ATC do not pass information that may lead to conflict, they leave themselves open to litigation, hence, chat on the radio will increase, not decrease.

We need a fundamental change to our H&S rules if we want to get back to the old system.

The way were're going, we'll be born with a bright yellow reflective jacket as part of our DNA, hard hat compulsary!

Sad..., I lknow, but true all the same.

A

[ozplane]

Just returned from 2 weeks in New Zealand and took the opportunity to hire an instructor and a Tecnam Golf (now that's my idea of a microlight, full tanks, two large bodies,bubble canopy, joystick and a 110kt cruise but not allowed in the UK courtesy of BCAR-S). I flew from Wanaka where there is no Tower but everybody gives Downwind and Final calls on the aerodrome frequency. While I was circuit bashing I was in with a Cresco lobbing out tandem skydivers,a Robinson R44, 2 Cessna sight-seeing Cessnas that were very busy and best of all a newly -arrived L-39 jet which was giving pleasure flights at £700 for 20 minutes. Admittedly the viz was good but it was all very safe and is apparently the norm in NZ. Any lessons to be learnt for the UK?

[BEagle]

mrcross - I think your extract only refers to aerodromes with established ATZs?

[englishal]

I don't know why we even need A/G or FISO's. In my opinion it is probably safer to talk directly to other pilots in the vicinity of an aerodrome on a Unicom frequency than a radio operator who has no ATC authority. As far as parachuting goes, in the USA the parachuting is notified by Notam, then when nearing the vicinity of the area, if not already talking to some form of ATC, then contact is made with the 'drop' pilot on a Unicom frequency. He's in a far better position to advise whats going on than say a FISO sitting on the ground. Many of these untowered airports also broadcast AWOS [automated weather] information which includes all pertinent information needed, including such things as density altitude, wind direction, speed etc..

It all works perfectly well, so well in fact that even large airports become un-towered fields after 'closing time' and a Unicom freq becomes active. Its an interesting feeling flying into and taxying around a normally busy 5 runway airport in the middle of the night with no one around....

Cheers
EA:D

[Prof Denzil Dexter]

'Unicom' works well in the good 'ol US of A because everybody uses it, everybody has been brought up with it and the country is HUGE. Radio discipline is good, and everyone gets on with it.

In the UK, its different. No radio discipline at all, too many gob$hites wanting to tell everyone where they are, what height they are, what power setting they are using, all within a country the size of one American State. Which is probably why 'Unicom' is never realistically going to happen in the UK. Just have a listen to 118.000 on any busy weekend for an example of constant, and pointless chit-chat.

So, as I suggested to Shaggy Sheep Driver last week, best get on with it, turn the radio off, and fly VFR outside CAS where you are entitled to be without all the distractions of ATC. All the while, of course, keeping a GOOD LOOKOUT and not concentrating on the GPS. No radio=No hassle. No hassle=FUN.

I'm off down the hangar now, its a glorious day, despite what them WX chaps said it was going to be like.

Toodle pip

[windsock9]

SSD, why not leave Barton and fly from an uninhabited remote area over in Wales or something like that, you would probably feel much more at home then ;) and you could mumble on to yourself about your hatred of all Airtrafficers on your own. I fly at barton and i think the service is great it works well. Why not just get on with your flying more importantly and leave the FISOs to get on with their jobs which in MHO they do very well. You are the unproffessional if you ask me.

[Dufwer]

Let face up to the real truth here. Just like some newly qualified PPLs are only allowed to fly aircraft where the radio is a primary flight control with ATC's hand on it, certain chipmunk pilots seem to think a flight isn't complete until they have had an assertive chit-chat about how bad FISO's are. SSD, based on your posts over the last few weeks, I'm sure you will be much happier if you were to move yourself and your aircraft to a totally non-radio airstrip where you can fly around without ever having to talking to anybody.

Regards
D

PS I had a great flight this morning, spoke to a few stations along the way. At one point I thought about turning the radio off but I'm still not convinced the wings won't fall off :hmm:

[maggioneato]

SSD,you are making me green, I know that lovely strip you've been to. Will be there on Wed,to enjoy the peace and quiet,well ,I'll make a bit of noise taking off. :D

[bpilatus]

Shaggy Sheep Rider I must ask this do you get tired carrying your aircraft on your shoulder all of the times?

Some person thought that I complain, but I complain about only when somethings are broken.

It seem from here that you just complain for nothing. :mad: :mad:

Learn live and let live - not all people are the same and some like FIS and some don't but people who do do not complain about it every post they make they live and let other one live also.

You do not have the monopoly for deciding what is right and required and nor do I so I willnot be forcing you to talk on radios and you should not be forcing me to be dumb like you.

[WorkingHard]

An earlier post on this topic castigated Redhill. I am a not infrequent visitor to this airfield (from way up north) and have ALWAYS found them to be extremely helpful and accomodating. Why do so many pilots have differing stories to tell I wonder?

[Mike Cross]

BEagle

within the aerodrome traffic zone
Thought that's what ATZ stood for.

So you are of course correct.

Unicom works fine in the US when traffic is light, however there have been plenty of incidents where pilots, without the benefit of a ground station, have chosen to use two different runways at the same time, sometimes with fatal results.

At Popham, where it's a/g it is very useful to have the a/g operator look over your shoulder when on 26 as you can't see the offset approach clearly from alongside the threshold.

Ditto when at the threshold of 03 Admittedly the a/g operator doesn't have that much better a view over the trees but he is better able than me to keep abreast of what traffic is in the circuit while I am doing my checks.

Mike

[poetpilot]

I think I'll rise to Shaggy's defence here (whilst not totally damning the lads n lasses in Barton's hallowed tower)..

Barton used to be good for R/T . Concise stuff, very relevant to its "at your discretion" status. Those who have only known it as it is now wouldn't know it from days of yore. Both SSD and myself have flown from the place long enough to notice the difference.

It's snot that Barton's R/T is over-officous or overstepping its authority ....the advisories are given out in a friendly enough manner, so I would not kick 'em for that..

It's just that there are too many "instructions" given out which any pilot versed in operating from Barton (or indeed any other small airfield) knows already.

So, wheras "before", a visitor to Barton would get some advisories on a RH turnoff the active and where to park, now everyone gets them - when the majority already know the score.

I think over time, this can lead to a certain amount of "dumbing down" and "chatter fatigue" from the pilots side (e.g. students getting over dependent on a radio service which tells them everything, or pilots unconciously shutting out the clutter and then risking missing something important).

IMHO it would be better if the AFISOs got a little more concise and gave some of the less important information only when requested - and applied some knowledge of who and what is flying/landing/taxying.

That way, they would hear more and see more - and could give information when it was really needed rather than all the time. At the present, it's difficult to get a 5 second position call in for all the relatively superfluous stuff that one hears.

Do we want to wait 1 minute when the donk stops before anyone knows that we're in trouble? At 800 feet, that ain't much time...

The alternative would be to have separate "tower" and "ground" frequencies :rolleyes:

[Chilli Monster]

POET

Not being funny here but if your FISO's are not differentiating between 'based' and 'visitors' in terms of ground instructions then maybe it's time that the commitee (as their employers) got them all in a room and read them the riot act.

There is no reason to do it, there is no need, there is no SRG edict that says you must. If there are laid down instructions that based operators and club members know about by signing some form of 'flying order book' then that is sufficient. The FISO's don't have to re-iterate it every time.

It might be worth pointing this out - it may reduce your R/T useage.

CM

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Thanks for refining my point, Poet - well put. And CM, excellent advice.

Bpilatus - I have to admit to not understanding very much of your post. If English is not your first language, then I aplogise for that criticism.

But - It's Shaggy Sheep DRIVER. I've never carried an aeroplane in my life, let alone on my shoulder.

SSD

[Dufwer]

SSD, if poetpilot's post is refining the point you were trying to make, in this and other threads, about the problems you are having with FISOs, then my first impression appears to be wrong. :ouch: The tone of your orignal post gave me, and others, the impression that you are the kind of person who b1tches whenever you don't get your own way. Hey, you ride a viffer so you can't be all bad! :D

D

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Hey, you ride a viffer so you can't be all bad!

Yup, complete with pipe and slippers, so I'm pretty laid back, too:cool:

Sorry you got the wrong impression:eek:

SSD

[poetpilot]

Take it from me, SSD's a laid back, nice guy!

Purely from a personal view (I wouldnt want to speak for SSD on this) I've seen and been involved in enough politics at Barton in the past, NOT to want get deeply involved in them again, so I'm not criticising them with any other reason than to explore how it could be improved.

As a general observation/impression, it's been settled and positive in many ways in recent years at Barton, and I think that's a Very Good Thing. In particular, I think the flying school (instructors) are a really excellent crew right now, and I've seen other positive postings here saying much the same. :ok:

In terms of "AFISOs before the Committee", then this would run counter to the policy at Barton as I understand it, which is that there is a staff management structure, therefore (hypothetically) the AFISOs would discuss this with their line management.

Committee appearances would only be if things had to be escalated. If (again, hypothetically) I was to write to the club to put an opinion about this matter, then in the first instance I would write it to the staff managing the ops, not to the Committee.

Actually, I will undertake to talk to someone and find out the perceptions from the sharp end. Better it's done that way than to fester on.......

[FNG]

The idea of Shaggy riding a sheep has cheered me up after starting work at 0630 this (Monday) morning. Must be time to move to Wales after all.

[Evil J]

Let me chuck in my two penneth as a pilot with not inconsiderable experience and as an Air traffic Controller at a busy regional airport that still embraces GA.

Fistlt it is my experience that many people who find RT distracting and a hassle are those who are less competent and/or confident in their ability with the radio. I don't intend this as a dig, just an observation from talking to yuou guys day in day out.

OK I have an advantage in that when I fly using the radio is pretty much automatic but I think this is how it should be-even in very busy situations if the RT is automatic and you don't have to think about what you are gonna say because it trips off the tongue it won't distract or hassle you; ergo not spoil your enjoyment at all.

My brother recently learned to fly and prefers going into larger airports with full ATC and controlled airspace because he enjoys the experience of mixing it with the big boys. But then after several years flying with me in the RH seat, even with only 50 hours he has no qualms about using the radio, and knows exactly what to say and when.

So my advise is if using the radio is bothering you, get some more training-if anyone needs more personal advise send me a private message I'm always happy to help people out who are struggling with the RT.

And on the subject of Barton-a litle bird at SRG tells me that the CAA(as a result of the near tragedy there a short while back) are very keen to get full ATC in.

[rustle]

Anyone remember "Frankie Goes to Hollywood"?

Rather a prophetic piece, maybe one for you Shaggy :D

(Apologies to FGTH and the bastardisation of their song, "WAR") ;)


"FIS"

Oh no-there's got to be a better way
Say (it) again?!
There's got to be a better way-yeah
What are they there for?

FIS has caused unrest

Among the younger generation
Instruction then obstruction
Who wants to fly?

FIS-huh
What are they there for?
Absolutely nothing
Say (it) again?!

FIS-huh
What are they there for?
Absolutely nothing
Yeah

I said
FIS-huh

It's an enemy of all mankind
No point of FIS
'Cos you're a man

[Repeat]

Give it to me one time-now
Give it to me one time-now

FIS has shattered
Many young men's dreams
We've got no place for it today
They say we must fly to keep our freedom
But Lord, there's just got to be a better way

FIS
FIS-Good God, now

Now
Give it to me one time now
Now now
What are they there for?

[poetpilot]

ROFLMAO

:}

:ok:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

EJ-

Your point may well be valid, but I'd like to point out that it's not the one I was making.

I love good RT - it's an art when done well. The RT exam was the first I took when I started flying in the 70s (after years of listening to RT on an air band receiver), and as I said, when I talk to Manch it's a pleasure becuase it's well done and consise and a joy to partake in. RT per se is no problem at all - quite the reverse IMHO.

At the risk of labouring it, the point I was making concerned *uneccessary* over-contolling on the ground, and the reduction in 'bandwidth' of runway use when a FISO rather than the pilot is making the descisons at small grass VFR field on whether to enter the runway and go, or whether one should wait at the hold for circuit traffic.

IMHO the pilot is best placed to make the descision, while (quite undersatndably) a FISO will be more conservative because he may not know if the guy at the hold will go immediately or delay on the runway and cause a go-around.

SSD

[Monocock]

Must say I think several people seem to have got the wrong end of the stick here.

We all know the feeling of surprise when you press the flip-flop on the radio after 20 minutes of peace to be met by constant chatter. I dont think SSD's post meant to insinuate that we shouldn't talk on the radio, just that some things just don't need to be said.

An example was at Popham recently when I was about to call up for a radio check/taxy. There was a chap in the circuit flying his Arrow and instead of calling "G-** downwind" what he actually said was......"G-** is early downwind for 08 left-hand Popham, 3 greens, number one to land, will call final".

His finals call was....."G-** one mile finals 08 left hand, 3 greens, surface wind check please".

The wind sock was limp, nobody else was in the circuit, we all knew that he had retractable undercarriage (he told us twice). Why bother with the waffle?

Perhaps the most amusing part was when he requested taxi instructions and didn't get an answer.

It only takes one like this to get up your nose and to that end, I can see exactly where SSD is coming from.:ok:

[Thrifty van Rental]

You do hear a lot of waffle on the radio, and it is true that most of the worst offenders are pilots.

Even so, you may be being a bit severe on your Arrow pilot.

In France we teach pilots of retractables to say "three greens" on final approach as part of their approach discipline. In the French Air Force we used that approach too, and I think the RAF still teach it.

Also Popham radio traffic regularly interferes with traffic at another UK airfield (is it Born?) so that pilots at both fields are taught to announce the name of the field they are addressing to avoid confusing.

OK, the rest of what he said is all junk, but I thought that these two bits were worthy of comment!

I thought it was funny to see that it is not just France where Arrow pilots are very keen to prove that they are not just Cherokees :p

[ratsarrse]

'Unicom' works well in the good 'ol US of A because everybody uses it, everybody has been brought up with it and the country is HUGE. Radio discipline is good, and everyone gets on with it.

In the UK, its different. No radio discipline at all, too many gob$hites wanting to tell everyone where they are, what height they are, what power setting they are using, all within a country the size of one American State. Which is probably why 'Unicom' is never realistically going to happen in the UK. Just have a listen to 118.000 on any busy weekend for an example of constant, and pointless chit-chat.


Maybe a case of the grass is greener. It appears that not everyone in the US shares your views on the merits of Unicom:
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/183931-1.html

[Northern Highflyer]

Monocock

Have to agree with you that some people get so full of themselves or they just love the sound of their own voice.

Pilots can be as bad too.

I was taught when ready to depart after the power checks to say "G XX ready for departure lining up yz" as an example.

I often hear some giving a running commentary along the lines of

G XX power checks complete, ready for departure

G XX entering runway yz

G XX lining up

G XX rolling

what's the need for all that???????????, we know they will be entering and rolling (unless there is another way to depart) Helis excluded here :D

I almost expect him to start giving us commentary on flaps up, scratching his a**e, etc but by then he has usually swapped frequencies.

It would be funny except that when it's busy there are people trying to get more relevant calls in.

[andrewc]

Northen Highflyer, if the field & frequency was quiet then
it's perfectly reasonable to give some indication that
you are in the active and what you're doing there.

It gives other aircraft approaching more than one chance
to pick up on the fact of where you are and which direction
you're going to be taking off on...decreasing the chance of
someone landing towards you as you take-off due to a
difference in interpretation of the surface wind direction.

Of course brevity is important but it cuts both ways,

-- Andrew

[Circuit Basher]

Northern Highflyer - at the A/G field I operate from, I tend to make calls such as 'G-xx Ready for Departure', 'G-xx Backtracking xx' (where applicable) and 'G-xx Rolling xx'. I may well miss the 'Rolling' call if the circuit's not active. On landing, if the circuit's active, I'll usually call when I've vacated the active runway. I realise that this may well fall in your 'running commentary' category, but at an uncontrolled field, I'd rather let circuit traffic have a mental picture of what's around them to let them plan accordingly rather than just hoping that they'll see me.

I realise that a lot of this is down to personal preference and a balance has to be achieved betwen excessive radio calls and not enough. If in doubt (and I'm not busy aviating / navigating), then I place a high priority on communicating my position / intentions to the traffic around me BUT at the same time, balancing this with the level of radio traffic at any one time. I've even been known to miss out downwind calls when it's busy.... ;)

[Northern Highflyer]

I too always call backtracks and runway vacated but if I have already said that I am ready for departure and lining up I don't use the rolling call.

Maybe it's the way I have been taught but I have heard very few use the rolling call and theres nothing in CAP 413 about it either.

I agree you can't be too safe with regards letting people know where you are but there has to be a limit.:rolleyes:

[Flyin'Dutch']

There is a time and a place for everything..........

One of the airfields I fly from has a bit of a hump in the middle and therefore you can not see anyone on the initial take off roll when you are at th'other end.

As it is A/G only I do call 'rolling' as I rather use a bit of airwave than my superior piloting skills to avoid an encounter on the runway with peeps coming up my end!

FD