B737 bird strike 10/4/03

[FlyboyBen]

A developing story from the BBC website

"A plane which has been damaged in a bird strike is preparing to make an emergency landing at Stansted Airport in Essex.
The Boeing 737 plane with 195 people on board has a damaged tail.

It has been confirmed that the airline involved is operated by Helios airways.

It was a flight bound for Cyprus.

The plane was to have made an emergency landing at Luton Airport but has now been diverted to Stanstead Airport.

The pilot intends to empty the fuel tanks before landing."

[PPRuNeUser0171]

Can be found here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2936177.stm

Why is the BBC reporting this? Seems a bit of a non-event to me.

Another example of media hysteria or was there a jouralist near the tower at the time?

Gary.

[Lucifer]

Great non-reporting. Nice picture of Gatwick as well - what relevance does that have or is it just a useless report. Hmm.

[brabazon]

Not sure if I'd describe a "damaged tail" as a non-event - how would AAIB classify it?

Though I agree it's not clear why they are reporting it "as-it-happens".

I'm sure all become clear later.

[lomapaseo]

These kinds of postings are not useful.

While I often quick read and assimilate reported events for info and relativity to aviation, time dependent info is mostly useless after one day (example News Headline "Latest Crash in Peoria Deadly") is only confusing in its relevance soon after its posting .

[PPRuNeUser0171]

Not sure if I'd describe a "damaged tail" as a non-event - how would AAIB classify it?

A damaged tail could mean any one of a thousand things, Most likely the jorno (like the rest of us) doesn't know exactly what the damage is or what problems the a/c has and so is speculating.

The AAIB will do what they always do, Investigate the incident a report. Don't forget that a LOT of AAIB reports quote the information source as 'report submitted by pilot and subsequent telephone enquries' simply because the event is a non event.


These kinds of postings are not useful.

Why not?

It's always interesting to see other peoples 'take' on these situations.

Also fun to laugh at media reporting.......

Gary.

[Memetic]

6hrs 20mins to Cyprus? Or have I just missed something?

I think the journo might have missed the 2hour time diff to Cyprus.

But you know you should never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[QuackDriver]

How does a bird hit the tail? If in flight attitude other then side on it would be almost impossible to hit the tail of the fusalage and chuffin unlucky to hit the tail on take off .. or do they mean the vertical stab (fin, whatever)

Is n't English a great way of confusing people.

Quack

[Vizsla]

"A bird was killed today after it was struck by a plane"

Johnny Journo
Our Aviation Specialist Correspondant

[fly bhoy]

It'd take 6 hours 20 mins to get to cyprus because of the unscheduled stop to repair the tail!!:D ;) :D

FB

[rupetime]

Lucifer - minor point but the picture isnt Gatwick.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

How does a bird hit the tail?

???........ Same way the air hits it dummy!!!

;)

[eng123]

Don't know the full details but apparently it was a tail strike out of LTN and it diverted to STN.This info comes from a fueller [so it must be true!] but it was apparently being refuelled shortly after,which is surprising as i'm sure that detailed inspections of the rear pressure bulkhead [amongst others] are required prior to further flight following a tailstrike.Not sure what engineering support was available to this operator at STN.As I say though,only rumour.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Presumably a tailstrike, and a birdstrike on the tail are not the same thing?

G

[PaperTiger]

Wonderful journo turns of phrase :D

There was a story in the local rag a month or so back about birdstrikes. Said 'hundreds of birds are killed slamming into airliners every year'. Don't think it's the birds doing the slamming, unless there are any Blackburn Beverlys still around. :=

[eng123]

No Genghis,a tailstrike is the rear end of the aircraft impacting the runway during rotation.The 737-800 and also -400 has a collapsable tail skid,which will indicate when a tail strike has occurred.As i'm led to believe in this case,the crew felt/heard the strike occur and they subsequently diverted into STN.

[AtlPax]

... There was a story in the local rag a month or so back about birdstrikes. Said 'hundreds of birds are killed slamming into airliners every year'. Don't think it's the birds doing the slamming, unless there are any Blackburn Beverlys still around.

How long before PETA steps in to stop this terrible slaughtering of innocent birds . . . :8

[HotDog]

I presume tounge in cheek is not the same as a tailstrike either 123. I'm sure Genghis will appreciate your clarification.:rolleyes:

[M.Mouse]

It's about time the unions were brought under control, all these strikes are ruining the economy.

[Few Cloudy]

123, I think Ghengis knows more about tail strikes and their causes than most of us ever will. But there you are - yer hoomer is a difficult thing to express in print.

Anyway - so what really happened?

By the way Helios was started a few years back by the ex TEA Swiss guy Seiler - I think now booted out by the Cypriots

[Angus Meecoat]

How was the pilot going to empty the fuel tanks, fly around for seven hours. Never known a 737 being able to fuel dump.

What type of 73 can you get 195 pax on, seat pitch must be pretty awful. Not even Ryanair squeeze that many on.

What a crap thread, close it please moderator.

[seat 0A]

Last week I had 211 sob on board in my 737-800 to MAD.

But 49 of those were infants ;)

[newswatcher]

"A bird was killed today after it was struck by a plane"

Hey Viszla, what happened? Did some kind person find the bird lying badly injured on the ground, and put it out of its misery?:p :p

[Anthony Carn]

I do wish that the media were only allowed to print what an official source produced .........and kept quiet otherwise !

Who knows how serious or trivial this or any other media report is ? Why buy a newspaper or listen to the news these days ? It's all distortions.

"Damaged Tales" is more like it, usually !

[Lucifer]

It was Gatwick when the link was first put up there, complete with a BA -400 taking off and a view of the apron and old tower. So there.

[Max Angle]

I do wish that the media were only allowed to print what an official source produced .........and kept quiet otherwise ! Do you now, well why don't you move to a country that has state controlled media and censorship, that should suit you down to the ground.

[asheng]

Could sombody please explain to me how we have gone from a birdstrike on the tail to a tailstrike?
Sensational............ wheres Ghengis when you want him? :D

blimey,just like superman and twice as fast,he's here to save us all
Good old Ghengis :)

[U/S President]

Anthony Carn:
I do wish that the media were only allowed to print what an official source produced .........and kept quiet otherwise !
Are you really saying you’d prefer to live in a country where only officially sanctioned stories could be reported in the media and that dissenters could be “kept quiet”? :ooh:

Maybe somewhere like North Korea or pre-liberation Iraq? Incidentally, that lovable Iraqi Minister of Information, Mohammad Said al-Sahaf, has just released his official version of the birdstrike incident: ;)
“Yes it is true that one very small infidel aircraft did approach the mighty and brave seagull. However, the seagull fought with the aircraft for a short time and repelled its advances easily. The aircraft was forced to retreat to Stansted and will surely be crushed if it should provoke any seagull again. Also I can confirm that the seagull is alive and well with his people tonight and that the seagull seen on television is not a body double.”

[Buster the Bear]

It was a tail strike as confirmed by a runway inspection post departure and gouge found. No birds involved, the 737 now has a sore bottom according to rumour.

[Anthony Carn]

I do wish that the media were only allowed to print what an official source produced .........and kept quiet otherwise !
I'm quoting myself, to avoid confusion. An ambiguous statement, it would seem, at least to two posters anyway.

To avoid further confusion, I'll clarify and expand that the media should, where possible or desirable, report FACTS, issued by OFFICIAL, COMPETENT AUTHORITIES, as opposed to sensationalised, invented, ill informed garbage produced by idiots who have zero knowledge or experience of the subject in question ! The motive which drives the media is'nt necessarily the unbiased reporting of the truth.

A tail strike on the runway surface during rotation (according to the latest posts here) was reported in the media (according to the earlier posts here) as a bird strike on the tail ! What does the Airline say ? What does the CAA say ? etc etc. Would'nt it be great to read a statement from someone who knows the FACTS of the matter ?

Regardless of the exact situation, I'm proposing, in general terms, that, unless it knows all facts accurately, the media should keep it's "mouth" shut until it receives a statement from an official, competent authority, or finds out the truth, without doubt !

Perhaps, even better and where applicable, the media should reproduce the statement of the competent authority word for word. The infamous editing of statements to alter their meaning should be prevented.

Any sensationalism, or (ahem) "clarification", could then be added separately as deemed necessary (or UNnecessary, more like it) in the interests of "free garbage" -- sorry, "free speech". At least the reader would have the option of analysing the whole and coming to his/her own conclusions.

Hope that's clear now ! Apologies for any confusion, if caused through any ambiguity on my part.

Sorry to go off topic - it was'nt supposed to take up an extra post.

[broadreach]

Well, Anthony, I reckon you've just piled a few sap-filled logs on thy own pyre! :)

Trouble is, of course, despite our tremendous reliance on instant journalism no-one pays a blind bit of attention when a reporter happens to get it right first time. Then along comes a wacky thread like this one and whammo, the fact that whoever it was doing the instant reporting got it wrong appears far more important than the expensive/dangerous/job-threatening/let's-learn-something-from-this incident itself!

Rant over.

[eng123]

Having crossed swords with Genghis before over sense of humour issues,i'm still unsure if it was tongue in cheek or not!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Having made an original tongue in cheek comment about somebody querying the lack of pressure checks for tailstrike following (what up to that point had been reported as) a birdstrike, I'm now just plain confused. Is this...

(a) A birdstrike, possibly on the tail
(b) A tailstrike, possibly to a bird, or more likely a 737
(c) Both
(d) Entirely unsubstantiated rumour to fill column space in a tabloid.


I think it was 1997 but might have been 1998 that the we had reported 5 sheepstrikes in the UK, which make a bigger dent, but barbeque better and virtually never happen to 737s.

G

[lomapaseo]

Gosh

This story has taken more twists & turns than a moonshiner trying to outrun the feds in Tennessee.

I completely lost track of whether the plane actually dumped fuel and landed or is still up in the air.

Damn war news has pushed it completely off the telly over here.

[LTN man]

By Rob Neal Cambridge Evening News

YOUNG cricketers have described the terrifying moment the Boeing 737 they were travelling in appeared to hit the runway as they took off for a tour to Cyprus.

The cricketers, from The Leys School and The Perse School in Cambridge, were preparing to jet out to the Mediterranean for a pre-season tour in the sun.

But as the Helios Airlines flight took off from Luton Airport just after noon yesterday, disaster nearly struck.

"We took off and then there was this sudden thud," said James Bell, the 18-year-old captain of The Perse First XI.

"We said jokingly that we'd hit the tail and didn't think much of it after that until the captain came over the radio and informed us there was a problem."

Jonathan Mitchell, captain of The Leys team and long-time friend of fellow skipper James, said: "At the point of take-off as the plane leant back it seemed like the tail made contact with the tarmac.

"We didn't climb very high and the pilot said we were experiencing some technical difficulties. It was slightly unnerving but there wasn't mass panic. One passenger was walking around holding a cigarette in his mouth even though he couldn't light it."

His mother, Libby, speaking from the family's home in Meldreth, said the first she knew of the problem was when she was contacted by James' mother Shirley, who lives across the road.

"Shirley phoned to say she didn't want to worry me but the plane was circling Stansted trying to lose fuel," she said.

"At that point I was very worried, it was quite nerve-wracking."

After circling Stansted Airport for around two hours to burn off excess fuel, the Boeing 737, which was due to fly to Larnaca, finally made an emergency landing.

The passengers were left on the plane for nearly two hours before finally being transported to a waiting area.

"It's absolutely bizarre," said Mark Waldron, The Leys School tour manager.

"We've had no apology and no explanation since we first took off."

The teams, who were provided with food vouchers, eventually left for Cyprus at 10pm – a delay of around nine and a half hours.

A spokeswoman for Helios Airlines refused to confirm the cause of the delay, describing it as "a technical matter".

[Buster the Bear]

Buster 1 Media 0.

Tail strike! See previous post!

I may well be fat and happy, but I am not dumb!

[Techman]

Nevertheless, if birds were given a decent contract we might see a substantial decline in bird strikes.

[eng123]

Papertiger.........By far the best post on this thread!:D
eng123 1 buster 0.....beat you to it!

[Buster the Bear]

I think you will find that I was referring to the media reporting the fact that an actual tail strike was a relayed to the public as a major bird strike; I merely confirmed conjecture by revealing the news relating to a gouge on the runway caused by a Boeing Botty!

Media 0 Buster 1.

So how do you tail strike a computer infested Boeing beast? I thought that all the gizmo's on board would stop a sore @rse on rotation??????????

C of G issues here or a computer ‘off day’??????????????????

[LTN man]

Quote "Buster 1 Media 0.

Tail strike! See previous post!

I may well be fat and happy, but I am not dumb!"

This was the bear that reported BMI baby was coming to LTN on several occasions!:p :p :p

[Anthony Carn]

So how do you tail strike a computer infested Boeing beast? I thought that all the gizmo's on board would stop a sore @rse on rotation??????????
Ah ! Of course !

We all know, don't we, that pilots are overpaid monkeys and that "the computers" do absolutely everything involved with the flying of an airliner these days !

And if the pilots try to do something wrong, then "the computers" will prevent it.

Must be true - a jump seat passenger once told me ! And a pilot on "Airline" said so (what a ...........). Most significantly, what does the media say ? :rolleyes:



Anyway, hands up (well - post a reply then) anyone who flies a 737 which TAKES OFF under the complete control of "the computer". I stand by to be amazed. I pull the yoke back at a variable rate, having first attained the correct airspeed, and using training, experience and judgement -- oh dear, silly me !

[PPRuNeUser0171]

OFFICIAL, COMPETENT AUTHORITIES

Where????????????

[reracker]

Bit like the Singapore Jumbo in New Zealand the other week when the highly paid driver put the wrong weight into the FMC didn't double check it with the performance manual got the wrong Vref figures and scraped the arse, left the APU on the runway and caused the engineers a whole lot of grief.

The Helios crew must have pulled back bloody hard to dent the runway, the 800 is fitted with a large rubber lump designed to wear away and also the crushable strut. And if it was that bad, it wouldn't have been able to fly in such a relativly short time.

Any pictures about ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

:cool:

[Tom the Tenor]

When an aircraft has landed safely after an incident like this why are passengers not disembarked in a timely fashion and not to have to remain on board for such a long time like the reported two hours in the above instance at Stansted. A two hour wait is away too much. What is the story?

[Genghis the Engineer]

You'd struggle, in my opinion, to design a safe aeroplane that can't suffer a tailstrike.

Once in a blue moon things go badly wrong and the pilot has to earn his money by keeping an aircraft on the edge of the stall at very high AoA (and thus incidence), say climbing out over rising ground through windshear.

If you put in place an incidence protection system that made sure a tailstrike was impossible (and you could certainly do that), you'd almost certainly result in an aeroplane that a pilot couldn't fly like that, you'd also probably have to include sufficient safety factors into the rotation as to effectively increase the runway length required and thus make the aircraft uneconomic.

So, I can't - and speaking as an Engineer (not as a pilot) here, see that it is possible to design an aircraft which is both viable and safe, and is totally resistant to a tailstrike. What you do, and I believe this is normal in airliner pitch control law design, is create characteristics such that a lot of pilot input, beyond that normally used, should be necessary to go to a very high incidence. Thus tailstrike becomes unlikely, but a pilot who needs to can take an aircraft right to the edge of stall.

And then, having done that, we have to reply upon piloting ability. I think it's inevitable once in a while that the combination of control laws and pilot training will break down and you'll get a tailstrike. But, emphasising, I think it would be foolhardy to design a totally tailstrike resistant aircraft, the ultimate protection has got to be in pilot training (allied to a sacrificial structure under the tail).

G

[Beausoleil]

After a birdstrike a few years ago we were kept on the plane for more than two hours - until it was far too late to contact people meeting us and tell them we would be late. So our relatives were left hanging around an airport for 6 hours.

Very grateful for the pilot's skill in getting us back to the airport, don't get me wrong. But take a couple of hundred people, stress them (it was a big bird!), relieve them, then keep them strapped in for 2 hours with no information and no refreshment and you will have that many pi$$ed of customers.

[Anthony Carn]

OFFICIAL, COMPETENT AUTHORITIES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where????????????
Not amongst any of the media, that's for sure.

Or sat in the cabin !

[asheng]

Ghengis,

Having read your last post I totally agree with what you have said (something which may surprise you,no doubt).

At the end of the day to devise a computer to stop over rotation would be simple enough but we cant have a computer overriding every decision the flight crew make.What happens when his decision is the only last course available and the system says no,That is not a viable option.

The flight crew are trained to react to a variety of different problems they may encounter but on this occasion they made a rather large mistake but not quite as bad as the Singapore 747 crew thank heavens.

I was on shift last Thursday night and saw the Helios aircraft on the remote stands at stansted but must confess didnt really take a lot of notice of it.It wasnt until Saturday that I knew much of the incident but then I was in bed all day Thursday.

Maybe next time I will take a closer look but from what I have read this situation has been blown out of perspective by the press as all these situations do. But as has been asked by many people "What do the press know about our business?" Answer Not much!:ok:

[eng1170]

Mmmm! - "pilot intends to empty the fuel" - on a 737, how is he going to do this? Thats alot of flying in circles!!

[ChrisVJ]

Unfortunately it is not just the media who have little understanding. I was involved on the fringes of the news business for many years and in every single time I knew about what was printed the facts were distorted mildly or just plain wrong but I have to say it was frequently because the sources were ambiguous or themselves not knowledgeable. There is a humourous side to this too and it would be a pity to do without it. My favourite occurred last year.

"Hero Mountie saves the day after moose strike."

"A Mountie working with the US police saved the day by kicking out the jammed door of a learjet which left the runway in Oregon and burst into flames after striking a moose during take off." a police spokesman in Vanvouver said today. He went on
"He's a big guy, over 6'1" and always good in a crisis. We're glad the incident wasn't more serious. It would have been a different matter if they had struck the moose after take off."

That might have caused an inquiry at ATC?

[dicksynormous]

fire strike, rail strike, atc strike, miners strike, now bird strike and tail strike.....
this country is on its ar*se:O