Which Licence? - Help Please

[swinging monkey]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am looking to take up private flying when I leave the RAF in a few weeks time. I do not hold any licences (spent 30 yrs+ as an AEO on Nimrods, Sea Kings etc blah) but I do wish to remain flying when I hang up my Strop!

I cannot afford to buy an aircraft, but I probably could afford a microlight type vehicle. My question is this....

Am I better off getting a ppl and then getting a 'microlight' ticket, or, do you think it's better to get a microlight licence and then upgrade to ppl later perhaps??

I would be grateful for any advice on what you think I should do, who to contact etc.

My thanks to you all
'The Swinging Monkey'
'Caruthers, I think I'm going to enjoy this retirement lark!!'

[AerBabe]

You do realise it's possible to fly without owning your own aircraft? ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

We've got a beastie now in the UK called the NPPL which is a low(er) cost recreational license. I'd suggest you go for one of those, if you feel the need to upgrade later because you don't like the limitations (size, weight, day-VMC) you can, but in the meantime it'll get you airborne without soaking up too much of your service pension.

NPPL (National Private Pilots License) can be obtained with one of three ratings which are SEP (Single Engine Piston - light aircraft to you), Microlight or SLMG (Self Launching Motor Glider), and you can add the other ratings on at your discretion.

As a rough rule of thumb, getting the Microlight NPPL will cost you about £2k, whilst either of the others will cost about £3k, adding any other rating will cost you about £½-1k. [So, it's almost certainly cheaper to go microlight then SEP than the other way around].

SEP
Basically this qualifies you to fly the conventional club light aircraft, Pipers, Cessnas, Jodels, etc. as well as a wealth of interesting PFA homebuilt aeroplanes that you can either build yourself, or buy secondhand.

Your typical light SEP probably cruises around 70-110 knots, with an endurance of 3-5 hours.

Costs? Hire around £80-£150/hr, a cheap second hand Cessna will cost you upwards of £15k and cost £50-£100/hr to run. Alternatively PFA types start around £6k to buy, and cost probably £35-£70/hr to run. You can join a syndicate, purchase costs of a share could be anywhere from £1000 upwards, and running costs probably about half the hire cost of a similar type.

Store in a hangar or a tie-down.


Microlight
Qualifies you to fly microlights, which are little single and 2-seat sports aircraft defined by weight and stall speed. In performance, there's a clear overlap between the faster microlights and the slower SEP. Like SEP, oodles of types and oodles of clubs out there.

The typical microlight will cruise at 40-90 knots, with 2-3 hours endurance on an older type, and the newer types would give yer Nimrod a run for it's money, and certainly out-do your bladder.

Costs? Hire only became legal a fortnight ago and doesn't allow pax carrying yet, but hiring will certainly be an option by the time you're qualified. I'd guess that microlight hire cots will be around £40-£80/hr. Alternatively, a good second hand 2-seater will set you back anywhere between £3k and £30k depending what you want, and running costs are likely to be in the range £20-£40/hr. Syndicates exist to, and pretty much the same principle applies as SEP.

Store in a hangar, or de-rigged in a trailer or garage. Some types will take being tied- down for long periods, but most won't.

SLMG
An SLMG is a fast touring or soaring aeroplane that eats a lot of runway. They suit either glider pilots who don't want to have to get a launch, or people who like cheap long distance touring.

Costs? Probably £15-£50k for an aeroplane, hire opportunities are rare (as, I should mention, are schools, this is a minority occupation compared to the other two). Running costs, are probably about halfway between microlight and SEP. Will need hangaring, which can be expensive in some parts of the country.


I'd suggest in your quest for knowledge you look at joining PFA and BMAA, or at-least phoning them up (01273-461616 or 01869-338888 respectively) and asking for some information. Also buy a few issues of Flyer and Todays Pilot from WH Smiths which are both great on explaining the sort of stuff you're interested in (and full of adverts from flying schools and people trying to sell you aeroplanes as well).

Best of luck,

G

[Fly Stimulator]

Just to add to Genghis' comments, I'd endorse the idea of doing the NPPL (Microlight) licence first. You may find that that gives you all the cheap and fun flying which you need - the UK microlight community is very vibrant at the moment with lots going on and a very friendly atmosphere. See their bulletin board here. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microlights/)

If you do want to fly something bigger then the upgrade to the NPPL SEP is very straightforward and need not be expensive, since there are very few hours required, assuming you meet the required flying standard.

Where you will hit a financial barrier is upgrading from there to a JAR PPL if you want to do night, IMC or foreign flying in a SEP aircraft. That will require at least 35 hours more training, unless you do your original NPPL training at a JAR school with a JAR instructor. By the way, while you can fly overseas on an NPPL (Microlight) licence, you can't yet on an NPPL (SEP) as far as I know.

NPPL information is here. (http://www.nppl.uk.com/)


For microlight information have a look at the following:

The British Microlight Aircraft Association (http://www.avnet.co.uk/bmaa/)

Nick's Micro Pages (http://www.micropages.co.uk/) and click on the link for 'UK 3-Axis Aircraft' to get an idea of some of the types available. Some, like the Jabiru, are available in either microlight or light aircraft versions.

[terryJones]

Fly Stim.

I am glad you mentioned that bit re flying abroad on nppl microlights, not nppl sep.
I would love to hear the official line from Cancel Amateur Aviation for the reasoning behind this.
Beats me how a Microlight can be safer than a sep with more requirments for the ticket:confused:


EDITED TO ADD:- this is by no means a knock at microlights:O

TJ

[Genghis the Engineer]

I may be wrong on this, but my understanding is that no non-ICAO license is automatically accepted outside it's country of issue. But, the NNPL(microlights) has been around as the PPL(A)(M) and before that the PPL(D) for years. So, BMAA and it's friends have had 20 years to negotiate overflight permissions, and once various countries grasped that only the name had changed, there was no problem.

NPPL(SEP) on the other hand was a new beast and Johnie Foreigner didn't know what to do about it - probably because nobody had told him. However, from what I've seen on the PFA's website they're doing a pretty good job of setting that right.

G

[Fly Stimulator]

Terry,

It's actually the foreign administrations rather than the CAA who have made it possible to take a microlight overseas on an NPPL.

Microlight licences are sub-ICAO and don't have to be recognised by other ICAO states. The French for example choose to allow foreign microlight pilots in as long as they have a valid licence from their home country. This was how PPL(A)/Microlight licence holders were able to visit, and NPPL(Microlight) holders now benefit from the same concession.

Since this is purely for microlights, it leaves NPPL (SEP) holders still stuck on this side of the Channel.

The details are here. (http://www.avnet.co.uk/bmaa/fr2002.htm)

[BEagle]

SM -

First thing - can you obtain a JAR Class II medical? If you cannot (and it's much the same as the anuual bollock-fondling you used to get from a service quack), then you're limited to the NPPL.

Or, it might be that funding is the issue. For a start, you're entitled to join a RAFFCA flying club which is a much cheaper place to obtain your licence than anywhere else. So PM me and I'll tell you where to apply.

You may prefer the Microlight route via the NPPL. As a member of the NPPL Policy and Steering Committee, I can confirm that you can do all your training on a microlight - many of which are pretty high performance aircraft - and then obtain credits towards flying a traditional Single Engine Piston light aeroplane on a NPPL by obtaining a NPPL SEP Aircraft Rating. You would be able to maintain both ratings on your licence very simply.

Bear in mind that the NPPL is UK, day VFR only and ask yourself whether you'd ever want to fly in IMC or at night.....or overseas. You could still upgrade your NPPL to JAR-FCL PPL if you wanted to - or you may wish to go for that licence in the first place. That will be your choice - assuming that you're OK for a JAR Class II medical.....

Cheers - and my man sends his regards to Caruthers!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Quote:

First thing - can you obtain a JAR Class II medical? If you cannot (and it's much the same as the anuual bollock-fondling you used to get from a service quack), then you're limited to the NPPL.


Even as an AEO, given our chap is current service aircrew, I should jolly well hope so.

Incidentally, there is also quite an active RAF Microlight Flying Association (RAFMFA), which has clubs at a number of stations and a cheap training scheme. They're probably in the phone book, but if you want a contact Email me and I'll put you in touch.

G

[swinging monkey]

Gentlemen,

I am grateful for all your comments, and I offer my thanks for your time and advice on this subject.

I get a general feeling that the way to go is to do the microlighting first, and then, if I want, to progress to full ppl status. Not withstanding the other comments, I think I will probably go down this route.

Beagle, very many thanks for your input. I will indeed take you up on your offer, later this week if I may? - thanks.
I do hope I can pass the medical! Even (as Genghis says) as an AEO, I have passed the last 32, so unless something has gone seriously wrong, I think I'm in with a good shout! Although the doc did take more interest in my discharge medical, than they ever did whilst I was in the service!! - I wonder why hmmm?

Anyway, my thanks to you all, and I'll keep you posted on my progress.
Regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, send Beagle a bottle of the famous you-know-what over, there's a good chap'

[Genghis the Engineer]

Nothing personal old chap, in the time I worked for Her Majesty and dealt with her aeroplanes, yours was a trade I never dealt with. So, whilst assuming the medical standards applied to your good self were probably the same as for everybody else, I wasn't absolutely sure.

G