MSc Air Transport Management

[crazypilot]

Hello,

I'm considering doing the above MSc after my Aeronautical Engineering degree and was wondering if anyone could give me any information regarding this MSc. I know Cranfield do the course which appears really good, but what does it involve, and where does it lead to? Are there are any former/current students of the course who can shed some light?!

Cheers

CP

[cowboy]

As a straight graddie with no work experience it was my ticket into the industry a few years ago, so I'd go for it if you're in a similar position and that's what you want. Gives you a handy network too.

The course provides a very broad overview of the industry, from marketing to engineering to accident investigation. You can specialize in the second term and with your thesis.

[rsoman]

Agree with cowboy.
You get exposure in all areas but keep in mind that this is a predominantly management course. There is an engineering elective, but since you have an aeronautical engineering background, i doubt will u learn much more in that subject.
Good facilties and a focussed environment and nowadays students from outside the UK outnumber local students in something like 5:1.
Send me a PM if you need more details.
Cheers

[AMEX]

I looked at the London City University's and I have chosen to go for this one... Just need to gather the money with perhaps a part sponsorship from the company.
Thought it would a great idea to widen my knowledge of the industry. I can also see some use in graduating in a Management area, should I lose my medical or something of great inconvenience (to say the least) happened.

[Thunderball]

Again, I agree with Cowboy. I've employed many people in a management capacity in air transport, and the only thing other than experience that ever really registers with me when I look at a CV is the Cranfield MSc.

[crazypilot]

Ok...thanks for the replies, chaps. Looks like something I should really consider and definitely worthwhile. I realize that it doesn't really have anything to do with engineering, but that's why I like the look of it.

AMEX ...Why do you think the City Uni one looks better? From what I can see, they are both pretty good, but the City one costs a hell of a lot more money!

Cheers

CP

[AMEX]

Actually CrazyPilot I must admit I had looked at others but not at the Cranfield one. Mainly looked at London City because I had met someone who did it but then again I am going to have a better look at Cranfield since, I too, found City's course rather pricey.

Intend to start over the summer/September time so still some time to make a more informed decision perhaps.

[Doors to Automatic]

I would certainly recommend this course. I did it 10 years ago and the experience and kudos it provided were indispensible. It set me firmly on the path to a career in aviation and now I'm the MD of a successful aviation consulting company.

My advice to anyone considering this course is don't think about it - just do it!

[Chicken Leg]

I too am intersted in this course and I have red the perspectus from London. As mentioned above £7000 seems alot of money. Could somebody give me a point of contact where I could get hold of the Cranfield details so as to make a straight comparison.

Thanks in advance.

[Groundloop]

When comparing costs between the two courses make sure you are comparing like for like.

Cranfield offer 2 versions for the MSc - a full-time option for new graduates and a part-time option for people already in the industry. Look at the part-time cost - Cranfield themselves quote up to 13,000 pounds.

The City course is part-time and really designed for people with industrial experience - it is not recommended for the average new graduate.

[rsoman]

With more than 20% of us aged 30+ we are not exactly a class full of young perky fresh grads here at Cranfield! And I am talking about the full time course!No reduction in enthusiam though!

Chicken Leg

This should be helpful for you
http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/soe/airtransport/whatwedo.htm


Cheers

[Happy Landings]

Have you thought about going travelling now you've finished uni because I came across an MSc in Air Transport Management in Sydney check out the university of new south wales on http://www.aviation.unsw.edu.au/masters.htm#SUB

Im not sure if its any good but worth a comparison at least!

[Jason2000]

Chicken Leg

I'm going to hopefully be starting the full time (1 year) Air Transport MSc at Cranfield this October (they gave me a conditional offer based on my current degree). To find out about it, jst go to www.cranfield.ac.uk/prospectus/soe/airtrans.htm (http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/prospectus/soe/airtrans.htm)

The course fees which the uni has given me for the next academic year stands at £2,940 (providing you are an EU student) so I think that's pretty much the same for most MSc taught courses.

The course looks very interesting...and I had a look around when I went for an interview there and the campus does seem to have a lot to offer too.

I did look at the City uni one too, although, as others have already said, I think it is aimed at people already in the industry rather than fresh grads, plus it costs a hell of a lot more!

To anyone who has done, or is on the course, where does it lead to? What jobs can you get, as someone with no prior work experience, on completion of the MSc? Are there any typical companies which tend to recruit new guys?

Cheers

Jason

[rsoman]

To all those who are commenting on the fact that the City course is expensive compared to Cranfield, yes it true for EU students, who are are paying more than three times for the City course.
But also keep in mind that the same cranfield course costs £15000 for non EU students which makes it one of the most of the most expensive MSc courses in UK. As Groundloop mentioned already, when doing comparisons look at all the factors.

[Cyrano]

Having done the Cranfield full-time course a few years back, I'd agree that it is a useful passport into the industry. In the "I wish I'd known that before I started" department, though:

- the intake in my year was predominantly fresh grads with no work experience (unlike me) so the opportunities for learning from classmates (as is typically the case on e.g. an MBA course) were limited. I think the admission standards have occasionally been a little wobbly (I suppose it's a natural dilemma in every college admissions department faced with falling enrollment: "do we admit these marginal candidates or reduce the size of the class - and our revenue?")

- Of the 30-odd in my class, I think there are now only two working in actual airlines (although many more wanted to go into airlines). A lot in aviation-related businesses, sure, but - even before Sept 11 - the course wasn't a smooth route into an airline for most.

On another note: I don't know if it's still the same, but there used to be subsidised flying for students in the college's Bulldogs. Great way to get a relatively cheap PPL in the UK if you can scrape the cash together.

Biggest recruiters in my year (pre Sept 11, remember!) were Airbus and SH&E (consultancy). The former are pretty regular. Easyjet had some interviews too.

Hope this helps.

[Jason2000]

That's useful...thanks.

Will need the cheap flying to keep my PPL updated!

[BDiONU]

National Air Traffic Services are soon going to start offering certain members of staff, who are destined to be senior management stars, the one done at Warwick Uni. Gets a good write up from other members of industry.

[Jason2000]

BDiONU

I looked on the Warwick Uni website but couldn't find anything called Air Transport Management or the like. Do you know the name of the course or have a URL ?

Cheers

J

[2lo4zero]

This from the NATS company intranet:

The management education framework and MSc in Transportation Business Management has been developed with Warwick Manufacturing Group (WMG), who will also deliver the majority of the modules within the framework.

WMG is a faculty within the School of Engineering at the University of Warwick and was founded in 1980. It has been independently rated as having excellent teaching and is backed by a University with a consistent top 10 research rating.

WMG works with over 300 companies on predominantly industrially funded projects.

WMG's work includes:

The strategic development of Engineering Manufacturing Companies (EMCs)
Technology transfer through the application of current and near current technology
Research and development including the development of new materials, processes and technologies
Europe's largest University based commercial Collaborative Product development and CAD/CAM group.
Industrial Simulation - The national B2B Centre (the national demonstrator for e-business and e-commerce best practices).
Fully integrated employee development.


Companies WMG has worked with include Astra Zeneca, BAE Systems, BMW, Bombardier Shorts, British Airways, Defence Logistics Organisation, Ford, GKN, London Electricity, ICI, Marconi, Rolls-Royce (Aero), Smiths Aerospace.

[mad mancunian]

The course gives an overview of the industry - a little bit of everything without any great depth. Bare in mind that each of those subjects that you have an overview of, is a subject worthy of study in its own right!! It’s great for grads that have minimal experience, if u already have any experience then its not necessarily such a good choice.
Some great guest speakers (former MSc students) compliment the resident staff, who have a wide range of experience and enthusiasm for the industry (some more than others!!).
Given the current industry climate, are you so sure it’s a wise idea to study such a specific syllabus as the Cranfield ATM MSc? The course makes u a 'Jack of All Subjects, but a Master of None', pardon the pun!
A lot of people out there have gained the same knowledge over the years working in the industry, thus, your knowledge is academic and your MSc seemingly commands a higher remuneration; you have no proven history where as those who've come up through the industry have, making them a better bet to an employer.
Consider subjects that give a new skills set that set u apart from others already in the industry, if you have any idea which field you want to get into, then this is much easier, manufacturing, development, airports, airlines, regulatory. DON'T become too specialised or specific in your studies, that was my mistake, I ended up with no leeway.
Good luck with whatever you chose to do!!

[rsoman]

Mad Mancunian
Your views on the course are quite onesided.
*****
'Jack of All Subjects, but a Master of None'
******
Yes, this is a course on Air Transport Management and not say something specialised on Airport Car Park Planning.
That said the course is well designed with sufficient depth in all the area of aviation industry and not just airline operations as many other courses do.
And in a one year MSc course you cannot go into any more depth than this course covers.
And the guest speakers are all not former MSc students either, and even if they are remember the course has run for over 30 years. The current years guest speakers have included among others the marketing director of a top airline. a former CEO of another and a VP of a leading GDS among many.

I came to this course after 8 years in the travel agency business. And I was getting into the very same trap you were talking about "becoming too narrow". The ATM course actually helps in having a good overview of the industry in sufficient depth and it is always better for an employer to have prospective employees having some idea and understanding of this specialised industry rather than having to train people from scratch.
In these hard times in the industry, the first jobs to get the axe are often these comprehensive management trainee schemes where selected ewmployees are trained in all functional areas of the job. Keeping this in mind the ATM course is one of the best options avaialble under the circumstances for boith fresh graduates as well as people with some years of experience in the industry who wish to broaden their horizons.

Cheers

[The Flying Lemming]

A lot of the responses here have been fairly consistent with the 'good all round' course theme. I can agree this fully, having graduated a couple of years ago.

If you want to learn about the air transport industry in a very general way then this is ideal.

However not really mentioned yet is the invaluable exposure you get to other key industry people and current trends. This helps you know what avenues / focus you should follow to effectively get into the business.

Also don't underestimate the contacts you'll make on the course - all like minded people interested in the industry who plan on working in it (well mostly anyway!). There's a whole circle of us who've been on the course who still keep in touch with industry affairs - very useful!

[Spitoon]

If you are interested in the airport side of things more than airlines I gather there's an interesting course at Loughborough - MSc Airport Management and Planning I think.

[cortilla]

Not quite in the same league but hey. I'm doing the Bsc in Air transport management at loughborough. The lecturers are excellent and really know their stuff. I know that lufbra is working very closely with east mids and heathrow at the moment. Don't really know about the msc side of things. I've met a few Phd students doing work for local cargo operators, and the department has an excellent relationship with industry. Send me a PM and i'll give you the names and phone numbers of the people you should talk to here at loughborough for more info. And yes the Msc is called Airport planning and design ( i think)
go to http://www.lboro.ac.uk/departments/cv/research/groups/transport/index.html for more info

[PIA747]

You should check out the MBA in Aviation offered by Concordia University, in Montreal Canada in Collaboration with IATA.

John Molson is a top Business school in North America.

http://www.johnmolson.concordia.ca/amba/index.html

[Flyer Flier]

It's over ten years since I did the Cranfield course, but there is possibly still the same factor involved regarding people's circumstances. Namely at that time, having been abroad with the forces, I did not have my own house in the UK. It was soon obvious from a quick calculation that the subsidised campus accommodation provided to married students was at such a level that the money saved in rental payments over the year was greater than the cost of the course itself! I wonder if this is still the case? It certainly helped and at the time the house price market was not going up crazily so it made sense.

I certainly found the course interesting, but one of the most enjoyable aspects was the diversity of nationalities among the students. Sitting in the bar on a Sunday night trying to agree on a project between an Algerian, Mauritian, Vietnamese, Bhutanese, Cypriot and a Taiwanese was really something to behold and even Kofi Annan would have stuggled to get some concensus!!

Happy memories and hope it is still the same.

[troubleatthemill]

are there any current cranfield msc students ppruning... i start the course this autumn and would like to ask a few questions. email address is in my profile...

thanks!

[Bojangles]

troubleatthemill

I am currently an MSc student there.

Your profile wont enable me to view your email details.

Pvt Msg them to me.

The odd thing is - there arent that many CURRENT students I know of who do PPRUNE.

[trainer too 2]

Cranfield is the place to be for an MSc in Air Transport, period. The other Uni's just don't have the facilities, industry backing nor research capabilities I think :8

[rsoman]

This is for those of the Cranfield ATM grads who have not yet heard.

The department has an alumini board up and running on the net for the past few months.

Please contact Keith Mason or Andy Foster at the department and they should be able to give you a user name and password if you havent got one already.

Helps continue the networking which I also agree have been the biggest highlight of the course. The international character still remained when I was there a couple of years back -33 from 22 countries want too bad , although as I understand the intake as well as the nationality mix has come down in the current year.

Flyer Flyer - if I guess your year at Cranfield correctly, a couple of your mates are now back in Cranfiled for their PHDs (I remember since they were also talking aboutyour Bhutaneese mate as well!)

Wonderful memories - now if it only it translates to a wonderful job....!


Cheers

Bojangles - yes it is unfortunate that more ATM students seeem to know of the spotters board than pprune. During my time also there were just a couple of others beside myself ppruning!

[Chromium]

After reading all the above I feel I might have completed the wrong course. Dec 2000 I completed a MSc in Aviation Management from Southampton University, it was a good course which combined aviation modules whith those from the MBA. In career progression terms it has not helped at all, and I'm still at the same level as I would have been if I didn't have the MSc. I am now studying for a MA in Management.

Good luck with the course though.

[Groundloop]

"Cranfield is the place to be for an MSc in Air Transport, period. The other Uni's just don't have the facilities, industry backing nor research capabilities I think "

Trainer, 90% of the lecturers on City's course are from industry. Also, how come it has grown to be the largest course of its type in the World with over 300 students? There must be something right about it.

[Jason2000]

Hello

rsoman For your information, there are 27 students made up of 18 different nationalities on the current course. Recognise your name....think I asked you some questions about the course one year ago when I was still searching!

I understand you have a few questions regarding the Air Transport MSc....I am currently on the course, so please just ask!

The course is excellent, you will learn a lot about the industry from all aspects, it can be quite challenging at times, the usual stuff really. Most of the lecturers know a hell of a lot, and the industry contacts which we have are pretty impressive....many senior airline staff/consultants/airport managers/a highly amusing and very knowledgable Chief Boeing Economist guy etc come and see us, our past group director went off to become the CEO for Olympic Airways (you heard of Rigas Doganis?), now the current CEO of Olympic Airways is actually one of the part time MSc students which is quite funny.

The last piece of assessment for the taught part of the course is a group project in which we start up an airline (in groups of 9 people) and we gave our final presentations today. From now on, it is full-time thesis work (like most other MSc's).

You will do a number of core modules in the first term, plus core and elective modules in the second term.....I took Airline Marketing and Airline Safety Management/Air Crash Investigation....both really interesting. We get to take part in a mock air crash investigation sometime next month on the airfield (I think they try and plough one of the Jetstream 31 aircraft into the ground ...should be fun)...

Regarding which university to study at...up to you really. I know someone who has been on the Air Transport course at City University and they thought it was great. I cannot be certain, but the content appears to be in-line with what we are taught here at Cranfield. Also, I think the average age of City Uni Air Tran students is a bit higher than it is here (about 1/2 of us are fresh from undergraduate degrees). What can be said is that both courses are well known throughout the industry...

There you go....now your turn to ask questions!

Regards

Jason

oh, and for your interested minds, don't know if you have seen the recent video of the launch of Independance air (flyi.com) over in the US....particularly 'interesting'

The link is
http://www.videonewswire.com/event.asp?id=22781


Make sure you have sound if you watch this video....makes it all the more funnier. Must say though, how will they make money? There seems to be a number of fundamental 'differences' in the way in which they operate....one example is that they appear to be offering a 'maximum fare' for any particular route...Revenue Management ???? Looks like an interesting company none the less...