The "In Charge"

[MaximumPete]

An intersting article in CHIRPs describes the chain of command as perceived by the cabin crew.

The "In Charge" rules aft of the flight-deck door. The pilots are merely there to get the aircraft from A to B. This is not an isolated incident.

A very experienced senior cabin crew member grudgingly admitted that the Captain may be in command, followed by the "In Charge" and lastly the two First Officers (a long haul flight) "just learning".

I've come across this culture in the 80s but not recently and am intrigued to learn why this perception has resurrected itself? A knock-on from the locked flight-deck door perhaps?

For the uninitiated the "In Charge" is the Senior Cabin Attendant

MP

[woodpecker]

For those of you who may not see the CHIRP publication the article ended with the story of the First Officer transfering any airworthy defects from the Cabin Defect Log to the Aircraft Tech Log.

There was a defect raised by "In Charge" in the Cabin Defect Log.......

Two BCF fire extinguisers used at the rear of the aircraft.

On enquiring he discovered that there had been an oven fire but the "In Charge" decided it was not necessary to inform the flight crew!!

[Bucking Bronco]

The "in charge" should be given a p45 for gross neglect of duty and endangering lives etc. I can't believe after all the CRM courses we've all been on that they would withhold that information in these days.

[skianyn vannin]

Anyone with knowledge of the company will of course realise that the incident refers to British Airways. Its not uncommon for Cabin Service Directors/ Pursurs to think they have more power than the Captain.

[puddle-jumper]

Yep,
Read it this morning and couldn't believe my eyes.
In my humble opinion sacking the 'In charge' in question will not solve the problem. This looks like it stems from the top and a change of cabin crew training + top cabin crew management is what's needed.
Then again I don't work for BA so have no first hand experience of this - after reading this I don't think I want to either. :yuk:

[pigboat]

If I got this straight, the aircraft suffered an on-board fire and the aircraft commander wasn't advised of the fact???

[The Nr Fairy]

Feedback 65, containing said article, available on the web here (http://www.chirp.co.uk/air/air_transport/FB65.htm).

[woodpecker]

I remember sitting behind two females in the crew transport, a Purser and newly promoted CSD. The CSD was explaining the step from Purser to CSD. "The difference from being a Purser is at the end of the day any problem on the aircraft is your problem, there is nobody else on the aircraft to turn to. It’s your problem and you have to sort it"

What example does this set for junior cabin crew when some CSD's put themselves on such a pedestal?

On a similar vein of setting a good example, new cabin crew entrants during their training are encouraged to remember the location of fire extinguishers in the 757 flight deck by the following.....

"The water is behind the w**ker and the BCF is behind the b**tard".

Alas it will NEVER change.

[Rollingthunder]

Got to admit I've never seen this attitude on the flights I've flown. Admittedly mostly with my own mob(s). Sure, have run into the king of the cabin once or twice but Captain rules. Next are First and Second officers to avoid annoying anyone.

Cabin staff get the emergency training - get to use it very, very rarely. Know the safety speil backwards. Most of the work is feeding and thinking about how to spend the lay-over. Most are not familiar with the concept of conducting a complex event in a dangerous environment, or even how machines can fly. Most, I say, for there are some top notch FAs.

[411A]

Should be handled accordingly...
While deadheading on a Continental flight (B707, long ago), one of the pax came up for a visit (told you it was long ago...) and informed the Captain that the InFlight Supervisor had told him that HE was in charge of the flight.
The Captain summoned the chap and asked him (yes, a boy) if he knew where the nose of the aeroplane was.
The fellow says..."well, yes Captain".
Captain says..."just to be sure, look down, way down over the glareshield to be sure.
IFS does so and says he sees the nose of the aeroplane.
Captain mentions...."do you KNOW where the white light at the tail is?"
IFS replies in the affirmative.
Captain says...."in between those two places, it belongs to ME, every thing else is yours...now get your skinny @ss back in the cabin and keep your mouth SHUT".

IFS retreats...without a word.

Worked like a charm.

[rupetime]

411A

How delightful - did that captain ever write any CRM papers ?

rt

[WideBodiedEng]

Make up your minds lads!
411A says what most of the above posters are implying and gets attacked for it!:rolleyes:

[Ivan Taclue]

All of the above clearly shows that CRM is just a buzz-word.
Every year at the refresher we pay lip service to it. In some enlightened companies the course combines F/D and F/A members. We answer all the questions and do our group exercises. Thereafter it's a free for all.

Of course the Ops Manual Part A clearly states the chain of command on board an aircraft. Obviously many Cabin Crew members do not even read it. (or perhaps do not have access to it?)

I think it is about time that airline managements and regulatory bodies tackle the issues raised, especially cases like the cabin fire mentioned.

Having said all that, I have flown with many good No1's whom I would like to have with me if something was to go wrong. The lives of the pax, the crew and indeed myself might depend on it.

Hopefully we can shift that 'Them and Us' attitude. Let's do it!!:ok: :ok:

[TightSlot]

I'm a male "In charge" but for another UK airline (charter with a big grin!).

I have no illusions about the chain of command - nor does any other "In charge" that I have met: Commander, F/O, then us. I only mention this because I have a suspicion that this problem is one that is specific to a particular large British airline, rather than a widespread one amongst the industry. At least that's my perception.

That said, I do have a concern about the volume, and quality, of communications thru a locked flight deck door: I'm not suggesting that we don't lock the door, but I believe that more concentration by the legislative authorities needs to be applied to the communications issues that arise as a result.

[BarryMonday]

If two BCFs can be fired off down the back then it is my guess that long before it was time to fill out the tech log most of the CC would have known. The fact that no one saw fit to tell the captain, particularly the CSD, indicates to me that a serious cancer has set in to the lines of communication and the chain of command in that company and urgently needs to be sorted.

One CC not knowing the form is possible but an entire crew is unacceptable, in my opinion.

[MaximumPete]

woodpecker

Why do you say the culture will never change?

My late employers spent a lot of time, money and expertise to eradicate the problems thay had in the 80s. It can be done!!

If there is a will within the management structure, and I'm assuming we are talking about BA, something must be done. Under JAR-Ops the responsibility must rest with the CEO or responsible person.

I remember an Air Canada DC9 with a toilet fire when the flight-deck were blissfully unaware of the severity of the fire until it's too late.

Let's hope history does not repeat itself with regards to the CRM issues.

MP

[oscarh]

Pete

Was it not your late employers who set up a system of negative checks from Cabin Crew?

For the understanding of others, there was NO landing check, for instance, given to Flight Deck as long as all was well in the cabin. This procedure was introduced at a time when Ops management was particularly cavalier and was only rescinded as an SOP under extreme pressure from the CAA.

Whilst not liking it, the Pilots meekly accepted this state of affairs!

oscar

[MaximumPete]

oscar,

As far as I can recall, and in some people's eyes I'm only one step from my basket, we used to have an indicator on the pedestal.

This was an aide memoire that the cabin was secure for take-off and secure for landing. The cabin crew would come in and either tell you or move the little "widget" or both.

There may well have been a time when there was no cabin status reporting but sense and reason has prevailed and the shortcomings rectified.

Let's hope the "In Charges" are re-educated ASAP.

MP

[Jet II]

I agree with what everyone has said previuosly - the flight deck crew should be kept informed of any unusual incident. However I am not sure that this lack of communication will be improved now that the flight deck is barred and bolted and cut off from the rest of the aircraft - it doesn't do much for a 'team' spirit amongst all the crew.

I was rather more concerned about the following story where the captain decided to operate a full commercial flight with one emergency exit u/s. The Captain in question did not agree with the cabin crew that the door was u/s and the flight should be operated under MEL conditions. As someone who has 'locked out' many doors over the years I have to say that I have never come across any member of the flight deck crew who would countenance such a course of action. Are the commercial pressures on flight crew now getting to the point where basic safety issues are now no longer the primary consideration?

:(

[oscarh]

Jet 11

Unless you are able to give details of the defect, one would have to say that the Captain was probably right because it would have been his assesment, in the absence of an approved engineer, that the door was indeed u/s.

The door need not neccesarily have to be working in a convenient (to Cabin Crew) way for it to be properly operable in an emergency situation and, having had it reported to him, I am sure that the Captain would have taken these circumstances into consideration before taking the decision to go.

The combination of expediency and professionalism as practised by a Captain is a very fine line indeed, which is easy to occasionally misinterprate as dangerous by the misinformed or ignorant.

Shout "safety" and too many people duck for cover instead of being objective. It's called arse-covering in some circles.

oscar

[Jet II]

oscarh

I assume that you have read the report, but the bit that concerns me was the comment
Once all the passengers had disembarked both flight crew attempted to disarm the door and both confirmed they were unable to successfully do so
Therefore both flight deck members knew that the door was faulty - this is not a 'grey area' - if the door is u/s then it must be considered an inoperative exit in accordance with the MEL.

The Captain did not have the training to assess whether the door was serviceable, so in the absence of a engineer then the door should have been assumed to be u/s and properly deferred in the aircraft log.

[NigelOnDraft]

Jet II

I do not condone the actions of the Flight Crew here at all, and reading through the lines, nor the does the author of the CHIRP comments.

However:
<<Once all the passengers had disembarked both flight crew attempted to disarm the door and both confirmed they were unable to successfully do so>>
<<Therefore both flight deck members knew that the door was faulty - this is not a 'grey area' - if the door is u/s then it must be considered an inoperative exit in accordance with the MEL>>

Bear in mind the number of doors required is the number of EMERGENCY exits. Therefore, if it could be established that the door would operate in an emergency mode i.e. slide would inflate, then the fact it could not be disarmed might not matter.

Whatever, the MEL should should have been consulted. It is for the MEL to state what "Door U/S" means... It would almost certainly have been subdivided into which part of the door was u/s, and the appropriate limitations stated.

In practice, I cannot see how, as Flt Crew, I could make the judgement on whether it would operate. Only an engineer can state that against a Tech log entry.

NoD

[UFGBOY]

Is this report available on the web?

[Jet II]

NoD

Therefore, if it could be established that the door would operate in an emergency mode i.e. slide would inflate, then the fact it could not be disarmed might not matter.


Quite agree, however the flight crew had no way of knowing whether the slide would have deployed in an emergency (as subsequent events showed it would not have!)

If the door is operating in a 'non-normal' way and there is no way the crew can confirm its serviceability then it has to be assumed to be u/s and the MEL provisions actioned accordingly.

You are right with your last statement - it is for the Engineer to assess whether the door serviceable for despatch - it is the crews responsibility to put the defects in the book.



UFGBOY - Go to Chirp (http://www.chirp.co.uk/air/default.htm) and click on Feedback 65

[Lou Scannon]

Back to the original subject...

We have only ourselves to blame if the CSD's or whatever are left with the impression that they are in command. In the past I have seen captains fail to give their cabin staff the support they deserve when it comes to pax problems. The case was quoted of the flight deck leaving the cabin to deal with a large number of delayed pax with the casual comment "See you in the Hotel then!"

Being a Captain involves a lot more than wearing four rings. It means demonstrating your responsibility consistently and not just when it suits you.

Respect is earned. If you haven't received the level you think is appropriate, first consider where you or your colleagues have gone wrong.

Then kick a***!

[Jet II]

Too true Lou

I am always amazed when I see flight deck crew getting off before all the pax are unloaded.

I would have thought that the Captain should be the last off - bit like on a sinking ship.

;)

[Few Cloudy]

Seems to me that naming the Purser "In Charge" is inviting misinterpretation! Maitre or Purser conveys the point. On the subject does your airline call the Captain, the Captain or Commander?

[MaximumPete]

They are also known as "Galley Admirals".

Yes, I've paxed with BA and seen the flight-deck leave before us, APU still runnning, hot-footing it to their segregated bus, 'cos in those days they went to the Queen's Building and the cabin crew somewhere on Northside.

Yes, there is a lot more to commanding than ruuning around with four stripes up as anyone doing the job properly will tell you. You earn respect and loyalty and it must be reciprocated. When you reach that stage you hopefully have a cohesive team and you lead it from the front.

Tha't my bit for now as I'm leading a mission to the pub.

MP

[White Knight]

Lou scannon - I like a lot of what you say generally and in this case you've hit the nail on the head. I was ALWAYS the LAST off the aircraft - made sure all pax looked after and cabin crew off also. When it comes down to explaining chain of command to the CSD/purser I have NEVER had a problem there either. If they start being a bit arsy then I tell them straight, adding at the same time that they always have my FULL support and back-up with any problems they may encounter during the flight, and the first officers full support and back-up. Things have always worked smoothly thereafter.... It's not a big deal, just don't be afraid of the PC brigade and their "everyone is equal" claptrap.
For the record I have just left BA, where most of this PC rubbish happens and am now with an overseas airline that very definately teaches the correct chain of command to all CC. Very refreshing indeed.

[flyingdutchman]

Dear White Knight,

This whole episode stems from a misinterpreted aricle in CHIRP.

A member of flight crew mistook the term 'In Charge' and also thought the report had been filed by someone within BA.

Some UK airlines refer to their SCCMs as 'In Charge CC Member' or the 'In Charge'.

These mistakes have taken on a life all of their own and have been debated ad nauseam by the flight crew community in places like the ba council forum and all on the basis of a bad premise.

Why, the whinges and moans within the council forum have even led to panicky messages by safety and security staff on the crewlink.

No one within BA flying staff is in doubt as to the chain of command.

All commanders are captains, whereas not all captain are commanders, wouldn't you agree.

Good luck with your newfound, overseas employers. No doubt I'll see you in a sleazy bar somewhere around the world, happily chatting to some of the arsy people you describe...

:yuk:

[flapsforty]

This is a recurring topic on PPRuNe flight deck forums.
Since what I read here about the unclear chain of command is totally different to my experience at work, I posted an informal poll in the cabin crew forum to find out how this is percieved by FAs from various continents and companies.

Poll results here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80641).

[penltbx2]

One of the best lines I heard on this subject.
Purser: CA what would you like to be if you could come back
reincarnated?
CA: A purser.
Purser: Why?
CA: Because for one time in my life I really want to know what
it is like to command an aircraft.
Purser: It sucks.

[LAF]

The poll results are interesting only 50% being clear that the Captain is King.This problem does exisit in Big Airways but it is a minority of militants.The last time I heard of an incident the skipper offloaded the cabin crew member and filed an ASR.

[411A]

Another interesting aspect of the situation is where the regular CC pay no attention to the cabin Chief...because of his/her nationality....or any other reason.
Recall years ago enroute DHA-RUH and scheduled to CDG, the cabin Chief (from Morocco, and very competent) complained that two CC would not follow her instructions.
Had 'em offloaded at RUH and replaced....they were summarily dismissed a few days later.
Not wise to challange the Chief.

[purr]

This problem seems inflight management based.they are putting unsafe ideas in the flight attendents minds .I have heard capt's ask the incharge some safety related questions (he never knows hit him)also ask all the other cabin crew to come in with their torches ,check the torches and ask them some questions in the presence of the incharge if the answers are not satisfactory debrief the incharge and/or offload the crew.May sound stern but it is a good idea to get the get the chain of command right before the flight.

[Few Cloudy]

In these days of short turn rounds and crew changes during the day's work, what I am about to propose is getting more and more difficult but is well worth the effort:

Try meeting the CC and the whole crew before flight - preferably during their briefing. Introduce yourself and the FO. Just have a short friendly chat - point out any special points for the day (turbulence/wx - security items - new procedures - pax related items) and ask if they have any points to make. If they are running through an evac/emer briefing, the Capt/FO input can be very interesting. The Capt/FO often learn something too.

When you get on board, everybody has an idea who and how you are and you have an idea how the cabin crew are. This makes a huge difference not only in normal ops but also in an emergency situation.

Too often the extent of the contact when first meeting the CC is a question "What do you drink, water or coffee?" and not much of substance.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Well, I would never leave an aircraft at the end of duty until the rest of the crew were all done, the sole exception being if I have another flight to operate that is in danger of delay if I dawdle, in which case I bid my farewells and hit the ground running.

These days though, a more common scenario is to walk out of the flight deck saying 'Everyone ready? Lets go', to see an empty cabin (divider gently flapping in the breeze, equivalent to a piece of tumbleweed blowing through a ghost town) because the cabin crew legged it 5 milliseconds after the final passenger.

CPB

[eastcoastagain]

Just after I got my command on a large a/c with lots of engines go great distances, I was informed by an i/c fa that "the trouble is that captains think they have more authority than they have and i/c's are reluctant to use the command that they have been given."

I initially thought that I was being wound up however after further discussion I found that he believed that what he was saying was true. This chap was a CC trainer.

Methinks we may have lost the plot.

:(

[White Knight]

The plot generally was lost in the UK a long time ago - especially in Big Airways. You have to understand that it's UNFAIR for a pilot to have more authority than a CC, hence the fact that CC trainers like to push the idea with their trainees that the "in charge" is the number one on the aircraft. Management of course go along with this lovey dovey PC nonsense, including flight ops managers. Come on people - get some back bone here and deal with these fools......
I'd really like to see the CSD land a crippled aeroplane safely, having used their years of experience and training to cope with that one really bad hair day.

[IcePack]

Why is it that everyone seems to forget: At 30,000 ft everybody's lives are totally in the hands of the drivers up the front.
Em! That makes them the bosses in anybody's book surely.
Some F.A's should ponder on this at 30west when wondering if they are senior to the F/O:}

[RAT 5]

W.K. & I.P. and others:

I used to work in the Latino part of the world. That is where El Commondante still ruled. Things were done properly amongst the crew. (management still rubbish, but down route my suite was well received).

I remember a story from a fellow captain who was on a down-route turnround, in a Latino country.

"After quite a while the pax had not yet arrived. He queried this with the No.1,(who was anglo-scaxon) and who told him she was still waiting for the cabin to be cleaned, and some other nicities to be provided. She had requested this from the agent some while ago, (but not informed the captain of this need.)
Captain summons the agent, and asks what is happening. He says that he is waiting for the No.1 to start boarding, but she has refused. Qeh??
The Captain then re-orders the same as the No.1 had previously. Miraculously things now start to happen in a flash. He then briefs the No. 1 on keeping him informed, and that in some parts of the world El Commondante is still the boss."

Sometimes things are so simple if you understand the local rules. If the salaries were better I'd be back there. Friendly and well intergrated because everybody understood the way it works. Go with the flow and no axe to grind.

KISS!

P.S.

A second thought: Why is it that all my CRM courses, and Flight Safety courses, in 9 airlines, have been given by only cabin staff with no flight deck input? Could that be a root cause of this attitude, and does it stem from a lack of interest in Flight Ops managment? ('nother topic?)

[MaximumPete]

We used to have Training Captains and Cabin Crew Trainers jointly in charge of joint CRM exercises in the classroom and in the mock-up.

Seem to remember the training was well received by both sides of the flight deck door and not just a "tick in the box to keep in legal" day out.

MP ;)

[Shadowpurser]

At BA C.R.M. has been brought more to the fore. I think there will always be problems in the major carriers because CC is more of career there and so people stay longer and so have been around the block etc. So you end up with In-Charge Crew Memebers in their 50's/60's who have been with the company since they were at school. They are then put on board with a Captain and an F.O. with possibly not even a years service (D.E.P. for example) who is earning half as much as them. Not that these things SHOULD make a difference and make the chain of command hazzy but unfortunately THEY DO.

A lot of it comes down to personality as well. A new-nice-guy-not-wanting-to-cause-any-trouble captain faced with a twice his age I know-every-rule-in-the-book-and-I'm NO.2 on the seniority list ok? In-charge crew member might find it a difficult day indeed.

People invariably like power and will push it to the limit sometimes just to see how far they can go before they are challenged. If you let them go further than they can without first giving them permission to do so then problems and arguements can ensue. In the same vien if you have ultimate power waving it around like a big stick is a recipie for disaster waiting to happen to.

The whole on-board dynamic is facinating as no 2 days are the same, but it's what makes the job interesting. Just a shame it's ruined sometimes by the odd idiot that can be on either side of the Flight Deck Door.:rolleyes:

[Human Factor]

Flaps,

While I appreciate your poll is of the snapshot/straw variety, I think it's quite worrying that 45% of those who replied do not appreciate that the buck stops in the Left Seat. It's a pity we can't see results from each company individually.

Regards,

HF

[HugMonster]

Some good points there, shadowpurser.

What is a brand new DEP F/O to do when confronted with a #1 who has been round the block a few times and knows the ropes?

Fairly simple.

It is exactly the same as a brand new 2nd. Lt. straight out of Sandhurst who is given a troop with a 45-year old very experienced sergeant who knows which way is up. The inexperienced subaltern who doesn't use his troop sergeant and the experience available there won't last long. Yes, the officer has to make the decisions, but should consult.

Simple answer? CRM.

The airline that doesn't train their most senior cabin crew to offer their advice, observations and experience in a non-confrontational manner is risking flight safety. Similarly, they should train their most junior pilots to listen and use the experience available from "down the back". It is to be hoped that they will remember that training by the time they become grizzled old captains and will still use all facilities available to them.A new-nice-guy-not-wanting-to-cause-any-trouble captain faced with a twice his age I know-every-rule-in-the-book-and-I'm NO.2 on the seniority list ok? In-charge crew member might find it a difficult day indeed.No, I disagree. Not a difficult day at all. Offload them. End of problem. If he doesn't want to cause any trouble, that is the way to do it. Anything else will cause a whole heap of it. For example, they'll have in-flight fires and not even bother to tell you. :eek: :*

[MaximumPete]

What it boils down to is that when it's all going well the "in charge" take the glory.

When it goes wrong guess who the "in charge" blame?

The flight deck.

Been there, had it happen to me. Good game!!!!

MP;)

[nojacketsrequired]

Sorry MP that this is how you feel but you must have flown with a couple of idiots,however I feel you're ganeralising here.

I am a CSD with BA and have always fully understood the chain of command,even if it's the F/O's first day,its still the CAPTAIN then the F/O .

I am not above my station and feel that mine is a somewhat grand title for 'head of teapots!!' :O .
When it goes well in the cabin we may get a pat on the back for our efforts and when it goes wrong in the cabin I'm always prepared to take the flak,thats what I'm there for.

If we land 20 minutes early when pax leave the A/C some will give you a thank you but next time you're 20 minutes late that same person may have a little dig as they leave.

We are all a team and some people from BOTH sides are not so good with CRM but it is a little unfair that many postings on this subject make the 'in charge' out to be 'glory hunters'or 'power crazy'. Again the fact is its a few giving the majority a bad name.

Next time you have a problem with CSD or Purser Hitler, can a suggest a little bit of 'old fashioned' CRM...get them on their own
and in no uncertain terms put them right.

As for the idiot not reporting the BCF's used on a fire it should have been goodbye.

To all my 'in charge' colleagues please go with the chain of command as it's there for all our sakes and if you don't like it, then with a lot of hard work and long intensive training you may climb the ladder.....not me I'll stick to my teapots,I'm happy there :O :O .

Finally the CSD's conversation to the Purser may have been misunderstood and saying the buck stops with them for certain cabin service problems.Personally I have had great back up on a couple of occasions from my Flight Crew colleagues with difficult passenger situations and was grateful for it.

CRM is a two way thing and so is respect on an aircraft,so lets not lose sight of that.Please don't tar us all with the same brush,
I don't with Flight Crew on the strength of one bad one.


Off now to polish me pots for me punters.

NJR.

[Psr777]

I have read with interest the thread so far and am disappointed with the "them" and "us" attitude that seems to permeate it.

I am an "In Charge" crew member and like many of my colleagues who have posted know well the chain of command and I follow it every time. However, aren't we all supposed to be a team, working together for a common goal?

The locked door policy is bad enough and appears to be a throwback to the "good old days" when it was most definitely a "them" and "us" attitude. I believe times have changed and the majority of flight crew and cabin crew that I work with really work together to ensure a smooth operation.

Communication and mutual respect is the key.

To the guys and girls with stripes, at the pointy end: I understand all the time and effort you put in to achieve your position, not to mention the cost, and respect it immensely. Notwithstanding that, respect only goes so far, the rest has to be earned, no matter what position. You can be the best pilot in the world, but if you have a God Syndrome what respect are you going to get?

To the "In Charge" crew out there: Again I have utmost respect for the time and effort it took to get there, BUT work with the team. You are not an extra, you are not a nicety. You have a role to fulfill so do the job and lead by example. Speak to the flight crew as you would to the cabin crew, don't treat them differently, you are all on the same side.

I am sure everyone has a story to tell about certain instances where we found it hard to work with individuals, whether they are flight crew or cabin crew - In Charge or otherwise. Please remember this is human nature.......we cannot get along with everyone all the time, what we can do is have a professional working environment that is easy to work in and most of the time a lot of fun.

To HugMonster:

The airline that doesn't train their most senior cabin crew to offer their advice, observations and experience in a non-confrontational manner is risking flight safety. Similarly, they should train their most junior pilots to listen and use the experience available from "down the back".

Why does it have to be the most senior cabin crew that have good advice to offer? Good management is being able to recognise good advice and act upon it no matter who it is from, and credit them for it. Similarly, why should we only train our most junior pilots to listen to it? I have been flying for nearly 11 years and almost every day, I learn something new. I am damn good at my job and pride myself on it. There have been occasions whereby the Captain (30 years experience) has asked my opinion and organised different procedures to accommodate.

We should all be able to work together, all of the time, unfortunately we all have bad days. It is even worse when we all have them at the same time !! :} :}

Please don't tar all of us with the same brush.

[HugMonster]

All I intended by my post - I would have thought it was fairly clear - was that training pilots to use the experience available from down the back should start right at the beginning of their time with the airline.

And I am sure that you will recognise that the experience and advice of someone who has been flying for thirty years in the teapots department is worth a little more than someone who left school six months ago. Furthermore, in a problem situation you can't take the time to talk to absolutely everyone sitting on the aircraft to see if they have any ideas. Hence a captain will generally talk to the #1. If your most junior colleagues have any input, I would suggest they feed it to the flight deck via the #1.

[MaximumPete]

nojacketsrequired

I agree with everything you say.

My comments in my last post referred solely to my experiences on the B707 in the early 1980s.I have not come across this divide on any other fleets.

I value a healthy rapport with the cabin crew as those of you have suffered my tea-making will know.

Keep up the good work

MP

[Jump Complete]

Reminds me of a bad joke in a book 'The Funny Side of Flying' by Alan Branson where he quotes an airline Ops manual as saying The position of the senior stewardess (it was a long time ago) is immedieatly under the Captain!

On a more serious note: I am not yet flying for an airline, I mainly fly parachutists, but I treat it in much the same way. I am in command of the aircraft, the buck basically stops with me. However, I do not have 5000 parachute jumps behind, unlike the jump master. If the weather is marginal and they ask me if we can go, I will say "I am happy to fly the aeroplane. It is up to you chaps to decide if is safe to jump." Obviously I pass on weather reports from the drop-zone, and do everything I can to insure they have the right information before they go. Although I am responisble for the flight, I am not going to second guess a highly experinced jumper as to suitable conditions for jumping, as long as it is safe and legal to fly. (I should add that as we mainly deal with tandam parachutist there is almost always a very experinced jumper on board.)

[Shadowpurser]

I hope resorting to offloading would be a very last resort if confrontation had occured already.

The situation I was picturing was one of someone new to the left hand seat or the company and so not wanting to make a "name" for themselves etc etc from the off by doing something like that.

If someone is acting wrongly as if they are in charge then surely a word to one side is the way to go, highlighting where things are going wrong and how you'd like things to proceed before radioing ops for another crew member?

Maybe offloading would be the only way to go but not until every other avenue of resolving the situation had been resolved. If not that captain could find themselves in a certain amount of trouble.

[nomdeplume]

I'm only a frequent flyer so I hope I'm not trespassing by commenting on this thread.
The results of Flaps40's poll didn't come as a surprise to me, but that's only because I've occasionally ventured into the Cabin Crew Forum - not a forum I'd recommend passengers to read - and the attitudes frequently displayed there are reflected in the votes cast.
I suspect a similar poll of your customers would have produced a figure 99% and 1% 'Don't know'.
It seems to me there's something very very wrong with a system in which an absurdly low percentage of CC regard the Captain as in charge of the aircraft and, IMHO, the fault must lie with management. As an earlier contributor said, the title 'CSD' given to the senior cabin attendant by BA is absurd. Director?? :rolleyes:
I understand the virtues of CRM between the pilots, and between the various grades of cabin crew but, as a passeger, I can't understand where it comes into relations between cabin atendants and flight crew. Surely if there's a problem the cabin supervisor can't resolve, the problem is passed to the flight crew, and ultimately to the Captain if the F/O can't deal with it?
Apart possibly from ludicrous political correctnes, I can't see any motive for management giving the cabin crew an over-inflated sense of importance other than to drive a wedge between them and the flight crew - divide and rule. As an outsider, it seems to me that is much more likely to produce an 'us and them' attitude than the long established chain of command system where everyone knew where they stood.
BTW, although people have suggested the problem is confined to BA, and Virgin's 'IFS' is a more sensible job description, I'm not sure the issues described in earlier posts are BA only. A few weeks ago, I was on a Virgin flight which involved a change of crew. The outgoing IFS announced that 'John Smith' and 'Tracy Whatever' would be taking us the rest of our way to London. Ah, I thought naively, a lady F/O. Not a bit of it, it turned out she was introducing the oncoming Captain and IFS!
I don't think Captain's are blame-free in the context of this discussion. Not many years ago, we had announcements from the flight deck intermittently throughout a flight. Now, very often, all we get from the flight deck is a pre/post take-off announcement telling us where we're going and how long it will take, followed by 8-10 hours of silence, then another announcement telling us we'll be landing in 45 minutes and the weather at our destination.
I'm not a fool who thinks pilots sit there doing nothing for the duration of the flight but I don't believe the workload is so high that there's no time (for example) for one of them to point out that we have a clear view of some famous city or geograpical landmark. Before anyone tells me, I do appreciate that not everyone will be able to see the sight, particularly in a wide-body jet, but that's no reason everyone should be deprived of the opportunity. I've never yet spoken to a single passenger who doesn't appreciate such announcements when the flight crew take the trouble.

I've probably trodden on enough toes by now, so I'd better stop but, to be completely honest, I find this modern trend of making CC out to be more than they are very irritating. I know they have a safety role if we have to force land/ditch in the ocean, and our safety is of paramount importance etc etc, but 99.9% of the time their function is to serve food and drink. Why pretend otherwise?

[nexeuk]

nomdeplume - you have just hit the nail on the head.

The only way for it to work is a properly structured chain of command. And if you look at the airlines that are the most successful that is exactly how it is.

In BA they have created an attitude within the CC that is truly amazing (as a generalization i may add). And this is exactly why people i know do not like to travel BA unless they have to - what a pity...

[TightSlot]

As Cabin Crew, this thread is developing my understanding of how a stag must feel in hunting season - an attractive target to anyone with a gun! Form a queue, take a shot whydontcha?

I suppose there must be CSD's (or whatever title) that have this problem attitude, but I haven't met any. I understand the command structure and so does everybody else I know: I haven't met any pilots who complain of this being an issue, except in this forum. Reality is more boring than this thread might suggest.

That makes about 3 CSD's on this thread saying broadly similar things - isn't it just possible that we may be more or less correct? Just a thought.

[nexeuk]

Tightslot - I can assure they do complain.

On longhaul just take a look at the pilots as they get on the bus, they are actively ignored by a majority of the CC.

[nojacketsrequired]

Tightslot,very well put and it does seem the season for 'culling'
the 'in charge' crew member.

In reply to Numdeplume(you made many good points), what's in a name?,I do think it a grand title for the position but regardless of the title it is an important position in more than one way.

As an 'in charge' your pre-flight briefing sets the tone for the flight ahead and hopefully leads to good team work,what you expect of the crew and what then can expect of you,and that you're there to support them in their duties.

You are there for your cabin crew and very importantly there to keep a regular check on the well being of your flight crew throughout the flight and keeping them informed of any problems
that may be happening or about to in the cabin area.

Leadership skills more importantly come into play on a more serious note in any type of emergency when we have to look after or even save our passengers,a well motivated crew is vital and will react in a positive manner.

The 'in charge',CSD,Purser or whatever else we're called(answers on a postage stamp please!!) will play a key role in communication between The Captain,First Officer ,the crew and the passengers in an emergency.

Nexeuk,I don't know if you've just been unlucky with the crews you've had and if you have,I apologise you find them or perceive them like this or you have an axe to grind for some reason but as said before please do not tar us all with the same brush.They are again the MINORITY.

I enjoy my job and take a pride in my work and hopefully this is passed onto the crew on my flights and from the many positive comments I get from passengers this is the case and they unlike the many people you know will fly BA again.
The point about the crew ignoring the pilots when they get on a bus down route I find hard to believe,did you witness this yourself?.I do point out that on long haul for some reason on many occasions the cabin crew are on the bus before our pilots and the pilots end up sitting at the front,but I never witnessed the rudeness that you discribe.

Finally a message to any colleagues who who do act the 'high and mighty' please don't and stop giving a bad impression to our passengers, also you know the chain of command so respect it .
It is there for many reasons but never forget the real one....
SAFETY.

I never generalise and know for every one awkward passenger there are four hundred good ones and likewise with our Flight Crew colleagues.

These are not nice times for any of us at the moment so can I please ask this game of 'bait the crew' to stop as I feel we don't deserve it.

Thanks and happy flying to us all.

NJR.

:O :O :O :O

[nexeuk]

nojacketsrequired - thanks for your very reasoned reply, and i agree with you there are many good crew. However, with no axe to grind, the minority happens to be quite a large minority, enough to spoil it on too many an occassion - and that i'm afraid is the view of many.

[BlueEagle]

Nomdeplume - Just a quick one on the subject of inflight PA's from the flight deck.

To some extent they have become superfluous due to the provision of a moving map display, (on most carriers), available to each passenger.

More significantly however is the fact that when the flight deck give a PA it will interrupt the sound track of any films or any audio channel, that in itself can be irritating enough for the passengers but on many airlines PAs have to be given in more than one language. A simple PA by me to the effect that we are just passing the Taj Mahal can lead to a five minute disruption of a film and all the sun shades on one side being lifted causing people to be woken up or their screen to become difficult to see.

In many airlines these days only the most necessary PAs from the flight deck are encouraged.

On a general note, in thirty six years of flying I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I had a serious clash with the CSD/IFS etc. that, to me, illustrates the size of the "problem".

[Dumpvalve]

I couldn't agree with you more on that point BlueEagle, I spend a lot of time in the air as a passenger, and cannot wait for the PAs to be finished, so that I can settle down and watch a movie or sleep undisturbed - a lot of airlines have done surveys on this and found that is what majority of the passengers want. On the point of all these "fancy" titles for the cabin staff, what a load of poppycock. In the cockpit you have a Captain and a FO, plain and simple - why not keep it as simple in the back of the aircraft? Can you imagine the fancy names we could come up for the Captain?:rolleyes:

[Jet II]

nexeukOn longhaul just take a look at the pilots as they get on the bus, they are actively ignored by a majority of the CC.


Don't you possibly think that there may be fault on both sides? - Perhaps the reason that the CC don't want to mix is that the particular FC are complete t*****S

;)

[Flying Lawyer]

NdeP
Although I agree with Dumpvalve's point about the pre-departure anouncements - which seem to be much longer and less friendly than they used to be - I wholeheartedly agree with you about the demise of informative PA from the cockpit.

[nexeuk]

Jet II - you obviously have no idea, just look the facts are staring you in the face.

[Final 3 Greens]

Just a hypothetical question.

What if both flight deck were incapacitated and a pair of dead heading, type rated, current, P1 qualified pilots from another airline were summoned from business class :D to take over.

Woudl the 'In charge' be in charge, in the same way that an observer in the fleet air arm could be the a/c commander?

I know the probability of this happening is about 0.000000001p, but I would be interested to know if SOPs in 'big iron' cover this sort of eventuality.

[Rananim]

Deadheading crews,if appropiately type-rated,are required by US law to assume command if the operating crew become incapacitated.