Virgin A340 runway excursion. Well done.

[Land ASAP]

It would appear that last night LHR was made single runway due to a Virgin A340 taxying off at the threshold of 27R. This happened late evening (10 'ish)

Thought I'd pass on my thanks to the crew involved as it quadrupled all workload for those who already had 1 hour delays in BNN/LAM/BIG/OCK. Before all you all jump on me, let me state that many other crews had taxied at an appropriate speed whilst lining up and therefore managed to remain on the paved surface.

Secondly, let me also thank BAA who have categorically refused repeated requests by LHR airlines to set up a remote de-icing operation at LHR so that they can cope a little better with such extreme weather. Can I suggest they invest a little time and money and go for a jolly to OSL/ARN/HEL etc to see how things can work on days like yesterday.

Thirdly and on an unsarcastic note, to all those staff who stayed on those extra hours so that 'us up there' weren't left stranded, a big thankyou. Especially the one T1 BA dispatcher left at LHR, Matt, who had the un-enviable task of meeting 10 more aircraft at 0215 this morning. Also the ATCO who was providing ground/tower at midnight, dual frequency and quite likely operating a shift length that would make ones eyes water. Well played fella!

[tired]

Your 1st remark is out of order, mate. Unless you were on the flight deck of the 340 or in the Twr at LHR you have no idea what caused the mishap. May I suggest an apology would be appropriate before you crawl back under your rock.

[unwiseowl]

The peple at AAIB will no doubt be grateful that there's no need for them to investigate LandASAP has done it for them:rolleyes:

[rupetime]

Land ASAP - your a complete Hampton.

[Bart Simpson]

Land ASAP,

Have you ever taxiied a 340 ? Probably not, so I suggest you take heed of tireds' remarks and wait for some details before pointing an accusing finger mate. There but for the grace of god and all that.
(incidentally, I have taxiied a 340 and it can be a bit of a git, body gear doesn't castor so you can't turn particularly tight at the best of times)

Later Dudes.

[max_cont]

Land ASAP, do you ever wish you’d just kept quiet?

I sincerely hope you don’t actually fly anything other than a computer sim.

You’ve obviously never turned the tiller to be greeted by that heart-stopping rumble as the nose wheel loses grip and you plough straight on.

[TurboJ]

Can somebody be a bit clearer as to what actually took place, please, LandASAP was a bit vague in this respect.

Reading between the lines, it taxied off at the wrong place and got stuck ? Can someone explain, in a professional, polite and non sarcastic manner.........:-)

Cheers..............TJ

:D

[SLS]

Land ASAP,

I suggest you put your mouth into neutral and park your lips. The taxi ways were virtually solid sheets of ice last night and even taxiing at very slow speed was hazardous. An apology is most definitely in order!!! :yuk:

[Max Angle]

Wasn't there last night and have never taxied an A340 but have nearly come off a taxi way in an A321 despite going pretty slowly and being very carefull so bad luck fellas, could have been any one of us, hope your Chief Pilot thinks the same.

Remote de-icing is great where it works well (MUN for instance, and loads of Scandi airports) and a complete nightmare where it doesn't (CDG!). It also needs a good lot of spare tarmac, something which is very lacking at LHR. The sad fact is that the place is so busy that any slight spanner in the works causes chaos and remote de-icing would not make a huge difference to the delays. Just hope you are on a day off when it happens like I was yesterday.

[Diesel]

Landasap,

Your frustration is eveident so I suppose we should all forgive your careless, thoughtless and arrogant attack on the crew involved in the mishap. Unless you have some further detailed information as regards what actually happened, and have experience on the a/c itself may I suggest you withdraw your remark. We can all accept a careless remark here and there but in the cold light of day perhaps you would like to reconsider.

Regards the apparent lack of facilities for coping with this weather I suspect many of us would agree with you.

Regards

Diesel

[CaptainFillosan]

Land ASP. You are a complete donkey! What happened did your little fingers get cold? Did you feel that you could have done better? It was a difficult night to handle big jets and there but for the grace of God go I. But you! All you are concerned about is a bit of extra work! Pillock!

Sorry Diesel I couldn't feel forgivness for this hapless git. It was a bad night but if he doesn't like the job and it's too much for him - GO GET ANOTHER ONE!

PS. You might considered deleting this thread. I bet you have a lot more to come yet!

[ILS27LEFT]

Your comment is simply ridiculous.
more to come...

[Busta Level]

Land ASAP is right .....

After all, BA does own LHR does it not? And why should Nigel have to be put out by someone elses misfortune? They should have diverted all the other airlines, shot the 340 crew, and allowed Nigels only to land. :rolleyes:

ASAP - your attitude stinks. And does nothing to dispel the fact that all airways pilots are arrogant to$$ers.

The fact is that there are some very nice guys working for BA, but they tend to keep their heads down, and get drowned out in the static created by idiots such as yourself.

:mad:

[BahrainLad]

..........especially seeing as the VS pilots probably went to the wrong type of school into the bargain...................

[Chillyfly]

Thanks ASAP, your remarks have just confirmed the wisdom of a decision I made a few months ago, to join Virgin rather than wait for BA to recruit again. Unless you have just flown your last ever sector and are hanging up your hat, I think you have a remarkable desire to tempt fate! Good luck...

[g4aao]

Well done BUSTA LEVEL! Couldn't agree more. It used to be funny, but years of listening to Nigels ridiculous comments and superior attitudes have grown rather thin over the years so BUSTA I know where your coming from (as does everyone else judging by the tone of the replies!) P.S. Any suggestions for a title this guy seems to think he deserves??

[southern duel]

i say land ASAP you seem to have a very short memory.
I remember one of your classics not long ago making a mess of the grass halfway down 27R. All the wheels in the grass in fact. I think the wind was blamed then !!

Im sure the more understanding Heathrow airlines didnt make any comments like yours when that happened.


short memory loss is a worrying trend amongst the worlds favourite.





;)

[autoflight]

Is there a problem with holdover time due to no remote de-icing? Is there an inference that this would put pressure on crews to taxi a little faster than they would wish under the circumstances?

[Dunhovrin]

Aside from AS(AP)HOLES comments about the VS boys I've got to agree with him about the excellent job ATC did. Especially the bloke on .97 handling the aftermath of the 1000 big cell. He did very well keeping the queue jumping to a minimum - especially the Nigel who came up with "Can we join the slot queue. We are fully ready we just haven't got a tug!". Tug is the right word methinks.

Well done delivery I hope you had several pints at cease shift.

[ratarsedagain]

Whilst agreeing totally with the response to Land ASAP's stupid comments, perhaps placing all BA pilots in the same category as this half wit is a bit premature.
And one other thing, Southern Duel, before you go casting aspertions on the Classic crew who departed 27R onto the grass with your 'that was blamed on the wind remark' I think if you consult the full AAIB investigation, you'll find that the crew encountered a gust which exceeded the design limits of the aircraft, and they were subsequently commended for their actions in limiting the damage that occured to the aircraft and its occupants.

[peeteechase]

Dear ASAP,

It sounds like you had a horrendous shift, well done to you and everybody whether ATC, Airline etc. who kept the show on the road.
Your remarks about the conduct of the Virgin crew may be a little premature and may have been born of fatigue and frustration at the end of a very tiring day. Either way, these conditions are extremely rare for us pilots and sometimes mistakes do happen. Airbuses often seem to have minds of their own, I gather that even nose-wheel steering is FBW and is non-linear, great in ice!

As for “BA Knockers-R-Us” what a bunch of idiots you are. I found joining BA a breath of fresh air after another excellent airline (BCal). Apart from the odd individual, the airs and graces are all myth.
I wish you better luck with your interviews next time.

ATB, PTC (Nigel)
Accent: Northern
Education: Grammar School
Background: Very poor Working Class

[Danny]

:} (Spoken in a Scouse accent so thick it's affected by gravity) Ey! Calm down, calm down, calm down! Arright?

Ok, so Land ASAP made a bit of a faux pas there but there is no reason to launch into the Nigel bashing. Whilst PPRuNe originally grew on this kind of thread I had thought most of you had matured beyond the 'handbags at dawn' attitude. Obviously not. :*

Before this thread spins out of control and self ignites, I'd like to request that you end the bashing now. Your comments were amusing but now is the time to give Land ASAP the benefit of the doubt and assume that the post was made whilst under the influence of a post flight wind down. :\

Personally, I have yet to meet a BA pilot who fits the stereotypical mould that so many of you seem to believe exists. I have met some pilots (thankfully few and far between) who fit the mould but have never had anything whatsoever to do with BA. Go figure!:hmm:

[Buster Hyman]

Geez! And I thought Dunnunda was BlTCHY!!!!:D :D :D :D

[MMEMatty]

Can i ask a few questions?


Whats remote De-Icing?

If conditions get so bad, how come LHR didnt just shut down, surely volume of traffic could not be an excuse with other airports so close ( Manchester, Liverpool, even Orly and Charles DeGaulle)?

Thanks for your time, go easy, i am just a beginner.

Matty

[NigelOnDraft]

<<Whats remote De-Icing? >>
At LHR, you deice "on stand". Causes problems in waiting for the deicing truck to appear and do the Biz. Then the clock starts running for "holdover time" (say 25 mins). You now have to be airborne in this time... You have to ensure everything goes well - from ground allowing you to push back, start up OK, no queue at Holding point etc., all a little unlikely given the conditions.

Alternative, say like Oslo, is start up, taxi out covered in snow etc, and stop near the runway holding point in a designated area. There you get deiced by designated teams that don't waste their time trundling around the airfield finding their "customers". When its done, you are right by the holding point, so off you go in 2-3 minutes. In addition, by the time you get to them, most of the other "hassles" associated with departure are solved...

However, it is a "system", and can't really be knocked up on the cuff in a day, especially somewhere like LHR which is chronically short of space. In addition, it really relies on 1 airfield run DeIcing company, which airline beancounters won't like because there is no competition over charges etc.

<<If conditions get so bad, how come LHR didnt just shut down>>
Conditions weren't necessarily "that bad" i.e. 'dangerous'. It just slowed everything down. It was hardly a safety hazard that the Virgin A340 ended up off the edge - who knows why - but I bet when it got pulled out it just needed a hose down. It really just added to the delays. Shutting the airfield down, as you suggest, would have caused 10x more inconvienience, and is a Hazard in itself leaving numerous airborne aircraft needing to divert into the limited capacity of other airfields ...

NoD

[Capt Groper]

LandASAP, I think that your've come in for a Heavy Landing.:confused:

[MMEMatty]

Cheers NoD!


Matty

[peeteechase]

Dear Danny

(Spoken in a Scouse accent so thick it's affected by gravity) Ey! Calm down, calm down, calm down! Arright?

Eh Lah, no knocking scousers or I'll set my wife on yer, and if you are really bad it'll be the ex-wife.

Thanks for the input Danny, I guess I shouldn't get too sensitive about the knocking of BA. In my experience my colleagues certainly don't actively slag off other airlines, well not British ones anyway! and then only when they pull the state airline card like the spaniards and greeks (you are no.2 to the Olympic on a 30 mile final). No all you guys in BMid, Virgin, Easyjet are cool, in 7 years time it's going to be "gizzajob!"

Sounds like it was hell at LHR this week. I am very glad to be on days off in a civilized and non-snowy place. As they say on The Fast Show, come to the Isle of Man!

ATB, PTC

PS: How are things at "The Camp", trained a DHL Captain the other day who knew you, used to be in Longacre myself many moons ago.

[w00t]

Good God, some of you non BA people are very bitter and twisted.

I am told that there are about 4000 BA pilots. To tar them all with the same brush is barking. It is like saying all Germans are greedy, and all Arabs are terrorists. Barking.

Your posts say nothing about BA, but they do speak volumes about you.

[cattleclass]

Sitting down the back as I tend to do as a Champion SLF'er I would imagine that pushing back all snowed up and going to an end of runway de-icer would be better for all, as we think we're off, you thank god we're off, and the gate and ramp are freed up for another(and eventually faster) turnaround. Is snow so unusual in the UK now that it's not worth the initial expense to do like they do in Oslo? Like Matty, I'm new at the site, but I've stared at a bulkhead or two in my 30 years of self-freighting! cheers,:rolleyes:

[BOAC]

Cattle - you are right. Several advantages to off-stand de-icing, such as:

the very latest protection against contamination for the aircraft - it has not been unknown for a/c to have to return to stand for further de-ice when there is a big take-off queue

Easier to control the ecological side of it and collect the fluid, possibly even to recycle. Paris CDG is an example of an efficient off-stand system

Some of the disadvantages are that bottlenecks can occur when in the queue if facilities are limited and that the installation cost has to be born by the airport and recovered from airlines which means capital expenditure :eek: rather than having airlines pay an agent per de-ice

......and, of course, it achieves that 'Holy Grail' - departure on schedule, even if you sit for 20 minutes + somewhere else waiting to be 'hosed down'!

[CI300]

BOAC, you said it! Its all about off blox time!
......and, of course, it achieves that 'Holy Grail' - departure on schedule,

We have a smallish international airline, with one LHR flight a day. Our flight was one that was de-iced at the gate, but didnt make it out in time. For some reason they couldnt get anyone to re-de-ice before they were out of duty time. End result, one 744 out for a day. We are not big enough to 'ABSORB' that kind of problem. The ripple was felt through our modest network.
Remote de-iceing is the way to go. Then again, its not a problem isolated to LHR, dont start me on snow at FUK this week.:ugh:

[Land ASAP]

OK people. I apologise for my initial comments.

Using all of FDP's and 'then some' and having used up our diversion fuel (Because nowhere would accept you because all ramp areas were full at BHX/LGW and STN and LTN were closed due WX) it 'pained' me to hear that an aircraft had left the paved surface lining up. Not what you want to hear eh? After 3 sectors, 14+ hours, a headache, 75 minutes of holding and then this?
I thought I had to pinch myself. Is this a simulator? Can we freeze it and have a coffee?
Can I answer a few of your unsarcastic comments?
No, I have never taxied an A340
Yes, I was there looking at the incident from a remote part of the Eastern part of LHR from the comfort of our cockpit.
Yes, The handling pilot had quite obviously lost adhesion to the nosewheel as he lined up on 27R. The Braking action at the time will, I'm sure, be listed in the AAIB report.
Yes, I have taxied on taxyways which are solid ice/slush/compacted snow etc and each has its own speed in which successful turns can be made. I would hazard a guess that on Thursday night such a speed would be very slow at a couple of knots. I hope the handling pilot proves that such a speed was being taxied at.
To the one who asked what school I went to...errr it woz a comprehensif.
To all who wish to hold me up as an Icon of 'Nigelness'. That would be doing me and all Nigels a major dis-service. We are a diverse bunch of guys ranging from the pratt to the hero. Don't belittle yourself with such prejudiced twaddle gents.

It was a bit cliched though to think that my comments that were directed to the CREW seemingly have been interpreted as a slur on all non-BA pilots. I made my opinions known in what I thought was at the very least, a guarded and tongue in cheek manner so that the handling pilot was made to realise that such an incident from the outset is quite obviously due to overcooking it. On Thursday night such 'overcooking' might well have happened at 4 or 5 knots. He will very likely, 'Learn about Flying From That'.

Why don't we all calm down as Capt PPrune asks and accept that my opinion is just that. An Opinion. My rationale is based on experience based on many sectors flying in MUCH worse conditions than last night. I saw the aftermath of the incident and I interpreted it in the poorly slept aftermath the next day. Let's all be thankful that it resulted in NO fatalities and we all lived to tell the tale.

Yours, sincerely looking forward to the AAIB report so I can revisit this thread so we can all
a) Eat our Hats or
b) Tell me, your iconic, Nigel, AS(AP)HOLE, holier than thou' friend, "I told you so!".

LAND ASAP.

P.S. Bet if it was a BA aircraft it would have been on the news for days.

[JAFCon]

Well Done Land ASAP, An Apology has been made and I must agree if it had been a BA A/C it probably would have been all over the Media.
Once again thankyou for tha Apology.

[nojacketsrequired]

Yes no doubt if it was the Daily Mail it would have questioned the
state of the pilot of the BA aircraft involved in'a major incident',
and then proceeded to to find out his address,names of the wife and kids,their school,size of the house,type of car and what bog roll they used!! :mad: :mad: .

Yes you're all right I can't stand that cr*p paper.


NJR.

[millerscourt]

Land ASAP As you rightly say anyone whon thinks that Nigels are from the top drawer are about 25 years behind the times. Most accents I hear from Nigels are South London or Regional ones.

As an ex A340 Captain myself I can say that taxying onto the threshold at Heathrow is not a problem regardless of conditions as there is bags of room so tight turns are not necessary. Yes the A340 NWS takes a bit of getting used to and on an icy ramp in a cul-de sac with an incline say then things can get awkward when a sharp turn is required, but onto a long runway at LHR then one has to assume either taxy speed was too fast for the conditions or there was a problem with the FBW nose wheel steering system,which has happened in the past to me once and total steering was lost,fortunately not at a critical phase of taxying. So not lets pre judge this incident until the facts are known.

[Bigpants]

I was also caught up in the mess of that night and I suspect like others quietly cursed Virgin for adding to our collective misery. It is a very human failing and although I would not have burst into print I understand the emotion.

The evening and subsequent early hours of the next day revealed the best and the worse of Heathrow. I arrived just after midnight and was also very impressed by the performance of the man on tower/ground.

The subsequent wait for a stand of nearly three hours revealed what problems BA has in its operations. Cutting staff, restricting resources, placing overtime limits on bussing, ignoring employee morale all come back to haunt you when the operation is stretched by bad weather.

I am grateful that someone stuck with it in "55" and that the bus did turn up to remove the passengers and also that the police were there to keep the passengers from doing something silly.
Regards BP

[JW411]

LAND ASAP:

"I made my opinions known in what I thought was at the very least, a guarded and tongue in cheek manner so that the handling pilot was made to realise that such an incident from the outset is quite obviously due to overcooking it".

I'm afraid that it sounds to me as if you are still throwing your toys out of your pram. How do you know that the handling pilot overcooked it or have I missed something?

For example, how are you going to feel if we subsequently discover that he/she suffered a nosewheel steering or brake failure on top of ice at an unfortunate time?

You of course would have handled the situation much better. As someone has already said, I hope you never get anywhere the AAIB.

[BahrainLad]

Land ASAP, good clarification..........here's mine: public school comment was dripping with sarcasm.....it's one of the more ridiculous 'Let's attack BA becuase it's BA' allegations that I've recently heard.

[Taildragger]

Land ASAP ......... There are times in our lives when we all wish that we had kept our mouths shut. (Mrs. Taildragger reminds me time after time of this simple truth) However, it takes a big man to admit he has (possibly) dropped a big one. You are that Soldier.
I am sure the Virgin with the tight slot did it only to annoy everybody, and had a huge laugh about it later in the Crew Room with the Flight Manager over a beer.

[seymore butts]

land asap

You know its a funny thing when all can guess the type of t--sser that starts a thread in so much detail to actually guess the airline for which you work.

The reply you then give is to not tar you all with same brush. er why not?

The guy driving the 340 was probably just thinking how much a better person he was for doing the same job as you lot for a fraction of the salary.

I hear a strike is in the offing.

[Land ASAP]

Seymore,

I hope you can see the irony in your posting, sir.

I shan't repeat myself, herein.

Happy taxying people!

[NigelOnDraft]

Land ASAP...

On the 31st of Jan, you conducted your own inquiry into a VS A340 incident and published it here:
<<Virgin A340 runway excursion. Well done.
It would appear that last night LHR was made single runway due to a Virgin A340 taxying off at the threshold of 27R. This happened late evening (10 'ish)

Thought I'd pass on my thanks to the crew involved as it quadrupled all workload for those who already had 1 hour delays in BNN/LAM/BIG/OCK. Before all you all jump on me, let me state that many other crews had taxied at an appropriate speed whilst lining up and therefore managed to remain on the paved surface.

Secondly, let me also thank BAA who have categorically refused repeated requests by LHR airlines to set up a remote de-icing operation at LHR so that they can cope a little better with such extreme weather. Can I suggest they invest a little time and money and go for a jolly to OSL/ARN/HEL etc to see how things can work on days like yesterday.

Thirdly and on an unsarcastic note, to all those staff who stayed on those extra hours so that 'us up there' weren't left stranded, a big thankyou. Especially the one T1 BA dispatcher left at LHR, Matt, who had the un-enviable task of meeting 10 more aircraft at 0215 this morning. Also the ATCO who was providing ground/tower at midnight, dual frequency and quite likely operating a shift length that would make ones eyes water. Well played fella!>>

The AAIB, after a little more analysis than you, have published this:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/jul03/pdf/gvsky.pdf

I've been searching for the bit in there about the crew "taxying at an inappropriate speed"... but don't seem to be able to find it...?? Heavy hints that the taxiways could have been deiced more, particularly when the fire trucks would not even approach close to the aircraft because they were concerned about sliding into it... and the whole area had to be deiced before even a coach could get near...

NoD

PS I do so later you apologised for some of the comments, so this post really to highlight the AAIB report... hope we all take the lessons from there!

[ncusack]

Uh oh!!!! This is gonna be a big'un!!!!!!:D :D :D :D

[PAXboy]

AAIBThere is currently no requirement to measure or assess the taxiway surface friction conditions and no measurements were made before or after the incident.
Speaking as a pax who lived through two winters in MUC and saw their superb remote deicing operation at first hand many times ... dear old BAA triumphs again.

I appreciate the difficulties of establishing a remote deicing op at LHR but that does not absolve BAA of this problem. It is beyond imagination that there is no monitoring of the taxiways during bad weather.

The fact that the emergency vehicles could not approach leaves one wondering what would have been the case if there was a fire. And I'm sure that no one is going to make a wise crack about the fire melting the ice!

To me, as a fairly regular user of LHR over the past 38 years, it only adds to my regularly asserted opinion that BAA are sleepwalking towards a disaster.

The AAIB note that no measurement of friction was taken after the incident means that no one has firm evidence to blame BAA? We can only hope that CAA do something significant before this winter.

Once again, a minor incident reveals that LHR has wonderful people holding this house of cards together. Whilst wondering why they do, I can only (again) express my appreciation that they do.

[sky9]

If I remember correctly there wasn't any measurement of friction after the Britannia 763 skidded off at Birmingham.
There must be something in the manual advising against it

[Departures Beckham]

Without wanting to stir up anything else, just thought I'd let all concerned know that the AAIB report into this incident is now available at www.dft.gov...022809.hcsp (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_022809.hcsp)