Cost Sharing

[mumraaa]

I took a friend flying a few months ago, and we shared the cost of the flight, which was 40mins in a C152. I flew him over his house and home town etc. After landing he told me how much he enjoyed the flight, having previously been a very nervous passenger in jets, and this was his first small plane experience.

He was due to come up with me last weekend after I invited him to fly with his uncle in a PA28, who also wants to fly over his house, but cancelled at the last minute. He now tells me that it is wrong for me to be sharing the cost of the plane, as I only want to fill the seat to help build my hours. Is it so wrong of me to share the cost? I know I am legally allowed to do so, and I cant see any harm in this at all? Although, it does help me build hours (and experience), I cant see this as a reason why I shouldnt ask for an equal share of the cost from the people I invite to fly with me.

Needless to say, I wont be inviting him again, but I am very concerned this may happen with other friends who I fairly regularly take flying and share costs. Am I missing something here? Has anyone else experienced such an issue?

[expedite_climb]

Hmmm. Interesting one. As you say, perfectly legal. I've known people who never fly without a passenger who isnt paying a share, to the extent that they are quite often meeting the pax for the first time at the club !

Personally, the times I took friends as a pax I never asked for any money (other than the day membership they had to pay), as I wanted to fly, and didnt mind having a friend.

I suppose it comes down to how much you ask them for. If i was a ppl and cost sharing I certainly would ask for less than the % (i.e. less than 50% for 1 pax).

As you say, if they dont want to pay, they dont fly. Yes you are building hours, but you are also enjoying the flying. They are also enjoying the flight, arguably more so as they never have done it !!

[Bodie]

mumraa

That’s a shocking thing for a friend to say, frankly his/her attitude borders on the ungrateful, and quite frankly is not deserving of your kind invitation. I experienced something like this briefly but not as harsh..

You’re not doing anything wrong - as you rightly point out, its quite legal so long as the costs are equally split. I also share costs with other flyers, its the only way to hour build.

I am lucky because I have an excellent PA28 share that’s cheap on fuel. As a rule, I only take non-aviation enthusiasts as part of the usual 'pleasure flights' that every new PPL seems to have to do. To be honest, these pleasure flights are hardly taxing (flying round their house etc), and probably isn’t the best form of hour building.

I tend not to invite other guys from my share too often because they'll want to fly the return leg, hence hour building suffers - may seem selfish but us wannabes have an agenda! However, these guys are normally more experienced so have something to offer.

Instead I invite friends (stress invite, not force or nag) who are student/new PPL's to share the workload and are quite willing to split the low hourly costs. Most see it as a bargain because they spend over £100 with instructor and plane for PPL training, but flying with me costs them a fraction of that. I must iterate that I am NOT attempting to act as an instructor on these flights.

Perhaps you should give it a try. Its great if they have a few hours under their belt because they can normally fly straight and level, leaving you time to really improve navigation technique, radio calls, in flight progress etc, in flight checks etc etc. Makes a better pilot of you in my opinion, drums it home.

Best of luck,
Bodie

[FNG]

Dear Marge

I am training to be a professional chef and would love one day to be in charge of a large and expensive restaurant. I need experience in cooking, so I invite my friends over for dinner. I present them with a bill as they leave (service not included). Now they don't want to eat at my house anymore. What shall I do?

Yours, Delia.

[mumraaa]

My first flight in a small plane was years ago with a friend who had just passed his PPL. I had no problem paying for the share of the plane, I thought it went without saying, and he didnt have to ask me to share costs. I thought I was really lucky to have a friend who could take me flying.

Unfortunately, I dont have much money, and it has taken me 10 years and all my savings to be able to afford my PPL. I would love to have enough money to buy my own plane and afford the running costs so I can take my friends flying for free, but I cant.

Can you compare a dinner invitation with hiring a plane for an hour? I've always offered to contribute to the cost of a meal cooked by friends anyway, or at least done the washing up in return. Perhaps a similar comparison to cost sharing a plane would be hiring a car and everyone sharing the cost. Or hiring a boat for the day? I'm not making any profit out of inviting my friends flying.

I am definitely going to try sharing with similar new PPL's and students now. Its a great idea and then my share of the cost of the plane will be put to good use. Great idea Bodie.

[PhilD]

My friend has just bought a new Ferrari. He asked me if I wanted to come for a spin in it, naturally I said yes. We had a great time with him zooming round the lanes etc, although he did all the driving. At the end he asked me to pay half the cost of the trip (total running cost, not just petrol)......

I never ask anyone to help pay for me to indulge in my hobby.

[FNG]

My own position is like PhilD's: I never ask those foolhardy enough to come flying with me to pay for the privilege of experiencing mind-shattering terror. It's a matter of taste and judgment, I suppose, but it seems to me slightly ungracious to expect, as a matter of course, that one's friends should subsidise either one's hobby or one's professional training. Tiffs might be avoided by accepting contributions if they are offered, but not pressing the point if they are not. Obviously, if keen aviators (studes, PPLs, aspirants, whatever) agree to fly together, then there may be nothing awkward about discussing the costs. I do agree, by the way, that the stance adopted by the friend you refer to in your original post does itself appear somewhat ungracious, at least in his manner of expressing the problem. Anyway, best of luck with your hour building and career aspirations.

[mumraaa]

When I ask a friend if they would like to come flying, i first ask where they would like to fly. Then I explain how much the plane costs and that i will pay an equal or slightly higher proportion of the cost. My friends all know how much work and money I have put into this, and the majority have no problem at all in paying an equal share, just like me when I flew for the first time all those years ago.

I dont have any friends with ferraris unfortunately. But if a friend hired one, i certainly wouldnt have a problem in contributing to the cost for a spin in it.

[Bodie]

Well said mumraa

Those comments about 'cooking experience' are lame - catering colleges run nights for the general public, for which the customer PAYS, is this wrong FNG?? After all the cooks are students trying to better themselves are they not?

PhilD's comment about the Ferrari is just rubbish. Firstly, your not springing the costs on people- they are fully aware before they fly. Secondly, flying will be indulging your hobby, but its more than that, it's going to be a career, as I said in my last post, us wannabes have an agenda, so as long as people are aware and willing don't feel guilty about it.

Bodie

[Julian]

If you are flying with someone because you invited them along for the experience of of a ride then it is taking the p1ss to ask them for money unless they have approached you for the ride. The Chef/Ferrari analogy made me smile I have to say :)

One thing I have found out is that taking someone up for the company and experience and not charging them can pay dividends in other ways at a future date that far outway the £50 I would have got !!!!

If you and a group of mates need to get somewhere and you are flying then by all means split the costs! A mate of mine does this each year to get him and his mates to Le Mans for the racing.

[Kolibear]

Actually, I do have a friend with a Ferrari, he picked me up in it, took me to the airfield and we went flying in my plane.

He paid half of the flying, as an exPPl he knows the cost. I didn't pay for the Ferrari trip. Why not? I suppose that cars are more accessible than aircraft, pax expect to pay to fly and not when they are driven. Had we been on a long run in the Ferrari, then I would have offered to pay.

Is it unreasonable to ask for a contribution, I think not. By flying people, we are using our hard earned skills to give passenger an experience that they cannot achieve by themselves. So it is not unreasonable to ask for payment. No one that I have yet flown has begrudged paying me and yes, my passengers have funded my hours-building but I have no ambition to fly commercially.

The problem arises if you start 'touting for business', where you start saying 'Come fly with me - it will cost this much'

I think there is nothing wrong in declaring, 'Yes I have a PPL, I'll take passengers but it costs this much'. That way, if someone wants to fly, they approach you knowing from the beginning that it will cost them.

[rustle]

Bizzare.

If you invite someone to come flying, it shouldn't then cost them anything except maybe a cup of coffee.

However, if they ask you to fly them somewhere then it's entirely reasonable they pick up part of the flight cost.

Trying to build hours by charging your friends to help you sounds like a pretty good way to end up with no friends.

My 2p.

[Chilli Monster]

I think not. By flying people, we are using our hard earned skills to give passenger an experience that they cannot achieve by themselves. So it is not unreasonable to ask for payment.

I would suggest that once you ask for payment from a non-pilot you are getting close to the realms of charging for services - technically a commercial operation for which you require a CPL. If they offer payment then you are limited to the cost sharing rules as defined in the ANO.

I think the answer's clear - bite the bullet, enjoy your flying and if someone offers you something for it then accept graciously. Explaining how much it costs and how much you expect them to pay is putting you on very dodgy ground legally. I've flown with many people who've never asked me for payment, I've flown others and have never asked myself - personally I think it's an appalling abuse of your licence privileges if you are asking and I'm sure the CAA's legal department would be interested too.

CM

[FNG]

My cooking analogy is "lame", and Phil's (to my mind, amusing and apposite) Ferrari analogy is "rubbish"....

It is always pleasant to be reminded of why I sooooo do not want to be an airline pilot.

As I've said, I would never ask or expect a friend to pay to fly with me, but, if I did, and he said no, I wouldn't go on about it as though it was in some way a terrible injustice for your acquaintances to decline to assist financially in the achievement of your ambitions or fulfilment of your enthusiasms. At the risk of sounding like one of Monty Python's four Yorkshireman (by eck, lad, we 'ad it tough), I recall that I trained for my profession without grants etc. I did grotty McJobs, sponged off my (non-wealthy) parents, ran guns/drugs/vice girls etc etc (no, no, Mr Bar Council, some of that is not true). I didn't pass the hat around my friends.

[exits hastily in direction of tin-hat cupboard, humming Dorothy Parton/Tammy Wynette classic "No Charge"]

[mumraaa]

I am certainly not breaking the law by asking if people want to come flying with me on the basis that we share the cost. There is NO profit in it for me other than experience, and i certainly dont advertise the flights. I also, only fly where my passengers want to fly, and I still pay at least an equal share myself.

The debate began when my friend's uncle ASKED me to take him flying so he could fly over his house and home town. I explained to him how much the plane would cost, but I would pay an equal share to help make it affordable. I asked my friend if he would like to come up again, but this time with his uncle and in a 4 seater. He agreed, and dont forget he had already been up with me before on a cost sharing basis, with no complaint. He cancelled the night before the flight because he said the weather wasnt going to be suitable. fair enough.

His uncle still wants me to take him flying over his house, despite his nephews comments and has no issue with paying an equal share. (He originally offered to pay the entire cost of the plane. I explained to him the limitations of my private license, and that it is beneficial for me to get the experience anyway).

I think it very fortunate if you are wealthy enough or in a position to take people up for nothing, I dearly wish I was. Unfortunately, that is not the case and the only way I can afford to fulfil this childhood ambition of mine is by sharing the costs. If this is morally unacceptable then perhaps I should except the fact that I cant afford it, and leave the joy of flight to the elite that can.

[dublinpilot]

Well I have never asked a friend to cost share, simply because I can afford it, and most of them can't.

Were my financial circumstances different I would not have a problem asking anyone who wanted to come flying with me, to cost share. Some have offered, but I have not accepted to date. However I may organise a foreign trip later in the year, and cost sharing will definately be part of that.

If someone wants to come flying (either because you offered or they asked), then you explain to them the risks, the uncertainty of weather etc, and tell them, there and then, about cost sharing. If they are not happy to pay their share of the costs (some will not be able to afford it), then they will probably just say that they will come back to you with a date, and never get back. If they don't get back to you, then just leave it, and don't pressurise them by keep on asking for a date. All this is perfectly acceptable in my opinion, as everybody knows where they stand. This is what I understand happened in Mumraaa's situation.

However, if you offer to fly someone, and only later tell them about the cost sharing, or you put pressure on them to come (never a good idea-cost sharing or not), then it is you who are wrong, not them.

Simple really!!

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Mumraa

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=invite

To ask for the presence or participation of: invite friends to dinner; invite writers to a conference.
To request formally: invited us to be seated.
To welcome; encourage: invite questions from the audience.
To tend to bring on; provoke: “Divisions at home would invite dangers from abroad” (John Jay).
To entice; tempt.

If I get invited I dont expect to pay. I may offer but I dont expect to pay from the outset.

I think that as long as you make clear what your definitions and expectations are you will find that everyone will be happy. But dont expect invited people to be happy to just open their wallets happily.

FD

[Kolibear]

CM

'ASK for payment' - sorry, wrong word and not what I intended. 'Accept payment' was what I meant. Apologies for any misunderstanding.

[eveepee]

As a student PPL I consider myself lucky to be in the fortunate position to be able the share the costs of flying with a qualified pilot. Well, OK..Its not me doing the flying (except for the odd S&L), but I get to experience navigation, RT, good airmanship required and a host of questions answered.

These shared costs are considerably cheaper than lessons but the observational experience gained in a more relaxed environment can only be beneficial to the learning process, and may, in some cases, mean fewer lessons in the long run.
It has also given me experience of other airfields and Pprune Fly-Ins ! I expect to pay my share as both pilot and passenger both benefit from this arrangement.

In my opinion if you invite friends who know you well and may know your financial position, they would also expect to share the costs ; especially if they have the choice of where you fly.

[englishal]

I don't have a friend with a Ferrari, but I do have a friend with a Boxter. When I took him flying he drove me to the airport and scared the s*it out of me. As I am a firm believer in fairness, once airborne, I scared the s*it out of him :D

On a serious note...I wouldn't ask for money from my mates, unless if they approached me for a trip to the channel islands or something special. Even then I'd probably pay the costs [and not tell them about fuel drawback:D ] and they'd pay for lunch / beer / women etc.

Cheers
EA:)

[Davidt]

My take on it would be that its a question of good manners!

If you are good enough to invite your mate it would be poor form of you to expect him to pay unless that is what was agreed in advance. By contrast he should have the decency to realise that flying is an expensive hobby and should make the offer.

if the arrangements dont suit both parties they wont last ie you wont have his company and he wont get a jolly.

If you feel that he's taking advantage dont invite him again if he feels ripped off he wont want to come.

Most pilots I take up offer most non pilots dont.

The kitchen sink analagies are poor, a better one harks back to my rugby days . For away matches the driver always got paid at a rate agreed for all by the captain + got free beer.

Sounds like yer mates tight.

[jayemm]

I really enjoy taking friends flying. I feel that it is part of a GA/Country-wide recruitment drive into GA, which will pay dividends for all of us in the long-run. Frankly, many clubs and schools don't do such a good job at advertising GA (IMHO).

If someone offers to make a donation, I'll happily accept and am happy with a fiver or fifty.

I've had some surprise favours in return, like the time I had major problems with my car, and the mechanic who I'd taken flying a year before had never forgotten it, and did the repair work for nothing.

[KCDW]

I really find this simple.

If you invite – you shouldn’t really ask for a share
If they ask – you are entitled to ask for a share unless it’s the mother-in-law :)

[rotorboater]

I wouldn't dream of asking a friend to contribute to my flying these day's but of course I can afford it now but when I remember back to being a student, we would alway's split the petrol in the car even if we were only going 30 miles.

I suppose it boils down to the hobby v proffessional thing, if you want to hour build for your atpl, you are usually the poor student and I think we should contribute to your costs, if you want to fly as a hobby, you should be able to afford pay for it or do something else.

[mumraaa]

I think my use of the word 'invite' has been misinterpreted here. It was meant in the sense that, I asked my friends if they would like to come flying with me and share the costs of the plane too. Please note I have been particularly careful to make it clear to my friends that flying would be on a cost sharing basis.

As a fairly skilled mechanic myself, I'm regularly fixing my friends cars. I've spent entire weekends fitting engines and fuel injection systems for custom conversions etc for nothing more than a beer. Since becoming involved with IT, I find much of my spare time is in addition spent fixing friends (and friends of friends) computers, including my friend in question. I've even taught some friends to windsurf for free, exept they had to hire the boards from the school. Never have I asked for payment, or expected anything in return.

Its just that I cant afford to fly them for free too!

[rustle]

Its just that I cant afford to fly them for free too!

Ahhh, but that's just the thing isn't it. It doesn't cost you any extra to take people with you.

Assuming you need to do the hours anyway (which, I think, was the point) - having a bit of company with you while you bore endless holes in the sky is to your benefit.

Were there any justice in this world you should pay them :D

Hope this helps ;)

[expedite_climb]

mumraa - i agree; invite can mean lots of things.

How many people think that if they are invited to go for a meal in a restaurant with friends that they shouldnt be expected to pay a share in the costs ????

[PhilD]

Rustle has it spot on (not for the first time)

The restaurant meal analogy does not work - if I am invited to a meal in a restsaurant with friends I get exactly the same benefit as they do - meal, company etc, and I naturally expect to pay my share. When I go flying I go for my benefit - if someone wants to come with me for company that's more benefit to me. If they enjoy it then we're both happy.

IMHO if you need your friends to subsidise your flying habit you need to look for another hobby, or you are likely to end up with no friends - sad but true.

[distaff_beancounter]

If I fly with other PPLs, then we each pay for the leg(s) that we fly.

If I take passengers they do not share the costs. The exception is some friends, who fly as passengers very frequently. In these cases I am happy to accept their offers to pay for the refreshments, landing fees, & taxis at away stops, but I would not expect them to pay anything else.

[FNG]

I agree with PhilD (again). So long as we live in this hustle-hustle society in which we have to compete with one another for access to limited resources, none of us has any fundamental right to do everything that we want to do, whether as a career, or for leisure. Hey, I for one would love to play polo as a hobby, but I can't afford to (it's a sport which makes flying look cheap by comparison). So: I don't play polo. Aint life unjust! I think I'll head off to the polo players' pprune and whinge about how my stingy mates won't contribute to my ambition to score the winning goal in the final against a crack Argentinian team. Whilst I'm at it, I'll file a complaint on the Formula One drivers' pprune about how I wanted to be number one driver for the Ferrari team, but no one I knew would subsidise me to do the go-cart or formula Ford racing, so I couldn't even get into the paddock. Huh, so-called friends eh?

[Julian]

Seems pilot mates are being brought into the reasoning now.

If you are both flying them get him to contribute - as a mate and myself do, we both fly half way and we split the costs therefore we are still paying 100% of our costs for loggable hours.

If I was invited by a pilot and was asked for half the costs I would say "Sure, I take it I am logging half the P1 hours then?"

You cant have it both ways.

[Bootlegger]

I usually find that when at the AD.....if i fall to the floor, and start pounding the ground with my fists, and sobbing uncontrollably, telling my friends how skint i am..it usually touches their heartstrings....they give me money, but for some reason, go off the idea of flying with me......i dont know why........ ;)

[bpilatus]

This freind paying for you flying must be some joke?

I would not let my freind pay for my fun. It is not good mannered and will only lead to big problems in time coming.

It is not elite to fly but it is proud to do so which is not the same thing I don think

[SlipSlider]

If I invite a non-pilot pax, I certainly don't ask for a contribution, but will accept one if it is offered, and is within the rules. Sometimes the offer is made, sometimes not. Neither affects my opinion of the pax.

If I'm asked by a non-pilot pax, then I would explain the costs and suggest a (legal) contribution - but certainly not if the pax were a youngster, they should be encouraged, as I was. I guess if the person asking for a trip then refused any contribution, that might well affect my opinion of them....

With my PPL friends-and-colleagues we operate an 'unwritten' rule of neither asking for nor offering payment for pax time; as we frequently invite each other for pax flights it usually evens up over time. However, the talking-freight usually buys the coffees, the bacon butties, and pays the landing fee.

Just occasionally it's good for the soul to do a completely solo flight, but usually I would much rather fill a spare-seat.

Interestingly I believe it is legal to equally share the full rental cost of a hired aeroplane, but an owner can only share the direct hourly costs such as fuel, and not any part of the fixed costs such as hangarage, insurance etc.

Slip

[mumraaa]

Let me make this clear, particularly to FNG and PhilD who have made some unfair, unrealistic and unnecessary analogies.

I ASK my friends if THEY WOULD LIKE to come flying with me. I make it clear that WOULD THEY MIND paying an equal share of the cost of the aircraft. I am not TELLING them to come fly with me! When asked, they can reply "sorry, I cant afford it", or, "sure, lets go", usually its the latter. Surely there is no wrong in this???

Now that I have had my licence for several months, I am finding an increasing number or friends and colleagues are approaching me to take them flying. This would indicate that the majority of those who have flown with me appreciated their flight/s, and not objected to sharing the costs.

I think those who can afford to own/rent a 4 seater aircraft without cost sharing each flight are very fortunate. Unfortunately, this is not the case for me, but I certainly do NOT see this as a reason why I should be excluded from flying as PhilD, you suggest. Thats elitism. If necessary I can share costs with other PPL's or students in similar positions to me, or fly a turbulent or microlight.

In about 6 months or so, I hope to be able to afford a share in a cheap 4 seater. Or perhaps I could find work as a barrister and buy my own! Then it will be much easier for me to take my friends flying for free.

Until I have saved the money for my share in a plane, I will continue to fix my friends cars and computers and take them flying on a cost sharing basis. I'll let you know in 6 months time if I still have any friends.

[FNG]

Calm down, mumraa, nobody is saying that you can't ask your friends to pay a legal cost-share in order to fly with you. Please have a look back at what PhilD, rustle, I and a few others actually said. Some of us, as a matter of personal taste, find the idea of asking friends to pay for rides in our crates a little, well, tacky, but that isn't the main issue. What underlies the cooking and sportscar-driving digs directed lightheartedly towards you is the idea that none of us ought to have an expectation that others ought to help us to pay for our flying, whether it be recreational or career-oriented. If someone does not want to pay, is that really something worth complaining about here on pprune, as though that person had broken some rule of friendship or of flying?

I must confess to being surprised that this subject has run to three pages, but I suppose that I must accept some share of the blame for that, so I shall sign off now, and retire to the customary bath of Dom Perignon in which we elitists like to relax whilst leafing through the latest brochure from some outfit offering to gold-plate our aircraft (hey, it ******s up the weight and balance, but it sure looks good when you're parked up outside the airfield bar).

[dublinpilot]

Well said Mumraaa. At the end of the day if both of you know where you stand from the begining, and no pressure is put on anyone, then everything is ok.

I also agree with you about the elitism. People who have said you sould give up because you don't have enough money to take your friends flying for free, have more money than consideration.

I suspect without cost sharing, there would be a lot less GA flying done, and that would affect all of us, even those who have money to burn!!

Some of the elitism comments made here telling you to get out of GA have really annoyed me:* :yuk:

[bpilatus]

well said :yuk:

I think you will be same pilot who when has fatpl will still complain how much it has cost you even though your freinds have pay for it also :}