View Full Version : CitiExpress Lose Pilots!!

Nav Armed
3rd Jan 2003, 21:30
Well it seems that after FSAS 1 and now 2 that CitiExpress pilots have finally had enough and decided to vote with their feet. I heard recently that 5 pilots resigned last week and rumour has it that more are on the way.Undoubtedly the company don't need them anyway as they are getting rid of all the turboprops and appear to have a bit of a surplus at the minute, but is this the start of a lot of pissed of pilots starting to take advantage of a recovering job market.
If it does boom i dread to think what will happen!!
But do they care? Probably couldn't give a stuff.

Onward and Upward chaps!:p

3rd Jan 2003, 22:22
Including Citiexpress BA employs 3000+ pilots and 5 resign?

Can we have a section for non-news?

3rd Jan 2003, 23:14

I think you will find that BA Citiexpress is not part of mainline BA in quite the way you imply!

No doubt others will set you straight.

I can tell you this though, BACE will soon have the best paid RJ captains in the country!

3rd Jan 2003, 23:25
When I saw the title of this thread I thought "what a silly lot, misplacing some pilots like that", then again, their management are stupid enough to do so anyway... ;)

Amazon man
4th Jan 2003, 09:03

Can you perhaps provide a little further information with regard to your last line of your posting.

Are you referring to BA mainline pilots flying the RJ or do you know something the rest of us at CitiExpress don't.

4th Jan 2003, 11:20
Amazon Man

If agreed, the new pay deal will provide very handsomely for mainline skippers flying RJs in the regions.:)

Dr A Head
4th Jan 2003, 15:39
They (Mainline pilots) joined a company with a set of t+c's, we (BACE pilots) joined a company with a different set of t+c's. Let's not get into another us and them dingbat, if we don't like it we can join our illustrious recently departed friends at Easyjet or get on with the business of flying planes. Q.E.D.:p

Amazon man
4th Jan 2003, 19:07
Dr A Head,

Its not as simple as that, you are never going to have a satisfactory working arrangement whilst one group of pilots working for the same company as another group are paid significantly higher salaries for the same job.

What I want to see more than anything else is a management team with some idea of where they want the company to go, not what bit of the company they can cut up and give away next.

Eastern meanwhile are laughing their aircraft fleet will double and they are considering the possibility of introducing BAe 146s later this year. Mr Liddiard may only be a non exec director but he is obviously having a large input into their expansion plans.

I have also read today that the introduction of BMI Baby at Cardiff has created a 46% increase in business already, how is it that in all the years BRAL and BACX flew from Cardiff they were unable to grow business to this degree, questions certainally need asking.

5th Jan 2003, 10:11
Initially to stay "on thread", good luck to those lucky enough to be moving to a forward looking company. I'm sure you won't be the last especially with EASY expanding rapidly near and at more BACX bases !

Just to answer Amazon Man's point about CWL as someone directly involved. The reason we never managed to grow the CWL operation was a combination of NO ADVERTISING, HIGH FARES and the J41's reliability problems.

BMI have apparently created a vibrant buisiness at CWL, although that 46% rise should be taken with a pinch of salt as they gave away several thousand tickets, the main reason for this is ADVERTISING ! The good people of South Wales now know they have an airport and an airline with reasonable fares. I don't say Low Fares because we all know that this is a myth. However it is still possible to fly to EDI now for under 100 we were charging over 300 and using a J41. Even those that knew the service existed (not many as it was never really advertised) all thought it too expensive especially when GO brought their nice new 737s to BRS.

Even when the fares came down the J41s were by then so unreliable that the service became a joke. There was a period where the EDI and GLA flights were combined virtually every day !

The Embraer routes all did reasonable business even with the high fares being charged and when those were reduced passenger numbers increased to the point where it was even reported in BA news, although not advertised locally to any significant degree.

Had we had the capacity or foresight to put maybe one more 145 at CWL and advertised we'd have become a very profitable base. I'm not sure BMI will succeed long term with 737s as the business is not there once they have to start charging economic prices, but the 145 is the right tool for the job.

Oh yes and had Mr Evans and co ever thought to ask, the WDA would have given us as much money as the gave BMI in order to save the CWL base. But the BRS-NCL route (which is where one of the CWL a/c is going) in competition with EASY is BOUND to be more profitable than the CWL-CDG route ! NOT ! But there again those cities are both in ENGLAND aren't they. Good luck to those at GLA and EDI for the future unfortunately I think you're the wrong side of Hadrian's Wall.

Appologies for going off thread but the question was asked.

5th Jan 2003, 13:51
I believe BACX actually helped guys in NCL to get interviews and sim checks with EZY and should in fact be commended if true.
However it does make one wander the criteria for recommendation to EZY by BACX..Good luck to the lucky few anyway. At least they can stay and operate at their home base!!!!

5th Jan 2003, 15:05
dear Mr Cheeky Visual,
you make some good and valid points there, however your argument that the J41 is/was unreliable is a little unfair.

On the company intranet, the TDR rates are as follows - averages for 2002:-
Emb 145 98.77%, BAe 146 98.32%, ATP 98.15%, J41 98.31%, Dash 8 98.67% (so the J41 is almost as reliable as the 146.)

As far as tech despatch was concerned our biggest
hang-up was lack of spares,especially more so once Bae in their
ultimate wisdom decided to cancel the J41 project and informed all the vendors that no more parts would be needed.

To return to the main thread,I wish those that are getting jobs elsewhere well in their new company (whomever it may be).
Its been fun knowing (and working) with you for the past 10 yrs,
and its a damn shame that things have ended this way.

Nav Armed
5th Jan 2003, 15:17
As I understand it, from the info that I got, was that BACX didn't arrange anything! The guy's got the 2 day assessment and were offered jobs on that.
They have left at short notice, but the bases that they were at were closing in a few months anyway.
General feeling from my colleagues is that there will be compulsary redundancies in about a year due to all the turboprops going.There's going to be too many crews as there is now!!
As BA have said to us that turboprop pilots are "Not good enough" I don't blame them.Good enough for the cadets to cut their teeth mind you! Good luck to them.

Progress eh! Don't you just love it!:confused:

18th Feb 2003, 21:53
not sure where u get your info about best paid rj pilots i have a friend whos just gone from skipper on dh8 with displacement pay to RJ and says its no better pay! iffy???

aardvark keeper
19th Feb 2003, 10:33
How do BA have the nerve to say BACX TP guys are not good enough to fly main line?

As both airlines "fly under the same flag" , how would the paying punter feel upon hearing this???


19th Feb 2003, 11:53
The paying SLF would be indifferent, but the pilot world won't. It looks a tho BA are trying to find excuses to not employ? sign of things to come?

19th Feb 2003, 13:35
Don't know about the NCL guys but the LBA pilots who got jobs with Easy had one of BACXs fleet management team bending over backwards for them.

19th Feb 2003, 21:26
If i may pick up on the tp verse jet pilot thing

There is an industry wide attitude in this country vis avis the suitability of turbo prop pilots (or unsuitability) to fly jets.
Its just protectionism and the old style elitism that needs to be purged from the uk fir.I've been a victim of it, but lucky enough to get around it. I mean how could my 8000 hrs command on dash and fokkers etc possibly prepare me for the rigours of dividing by 8 and 3 and keeping my feet off the rudders,god only knows. the atp was good enough for ba as a training tool in the past. now it seems the only tools are the managers and dinosaurs.

flying jets is a piece of wee and i'd hire a tpdriver with a good provenance over some ex 250hr straight on jet nonce with a few thousand hours on type anytime.
a career of imitating other peoples decisions does not make you a good pilot, being a good pilot does that.

rant over

my sympathies to all of you who have only operated in uk companies, it doesnt (and isnt ) have to be like this

19th Feb 2003, 21:40
As a TP driver who has re-located twice already for the company and now am being forced to re-locate back to Gla or the Iom, within six months of arriving at the expanding base that is Man, am I now to think I have no future with this company ?

19th Feb 2003, 23:30
Dick, spot on mate, best posting on this web site for many a month... all so very true... I even had a well known PPRuNe'r use the same tired excuse to me not too long ago. Until the higher level management of airlines in the UK get staffed by ex-turbo guys it will no doubt continue, as like all the best stereotypes, it has no basis in fact. :rolleyes:

BTW, the BA attitude to TP drivers is oh so typical of that excuse for an 'airline'.

Lucky Angel
20th Feb 2003, 06:11
Well to be honest guys i've flown both and i really cannot see what all the fuss is about. I mean what is a tp? An a/c with a jet engine with a prop stuck to the front. The 145 is far easier to operate than the dash and in general the drills far easier and simpler. Moving on from the dash to the 145 was very easy and i do really feel sorry for anyone who hasn't had the chance to fly any of our tps. As for BA saying tp drivers are not good enough that is b*****s and makes no sense whatsoever. I mean how comes people straight of a piper are but tp drivers aren't??? I worked with the BA cadets in OATS and dont get me wrong some are great guys but as always you get some that are completelely s***t. As far as im concerned it makes no diff at all what you start on and what you move on. If your keen enough to work hard you can do any type rating and fly that a/c with no probs. Being a good pilot has nothing to do with what you fly but how you fly it.
My sincere sympathies to those who relocated here and there and everywhere and still cant find the light at the end of the tunnel .They have shown complete loyalty to the company and this is what they get back.....an..... youre not good enough...
Oh and something i completely forgot.. How comes the x-City Flyer tp pilots are good enough for BA??????

aardvark keeper
20th Feb 2003, 08:49
Slightly off the thread

"Until the higher level management of airlines in the UK get staffed by ex-turbo guys it will no doubt continue"

Maybe a few ex-instructor, self improver, self propelling guys with no grants or sponsors - management staff on the recruitment / crewing boards will stand up for us & appreciate our dedication & loyalty

Hey ho :( 13 hrs to go to 2200 & still banned by the dreaded 5 Q's

Eighty Bob
20th Feb 2003, 09:14
I believe it was the BA BALPA reps that stated that TP pilots were not up to scratch for BA mainline.
Perhaps someone closer to the action can confirm that.

Of course it's utter tosh.
I know one of my former colleagues went from BRAL ATP to BA 747 a few years ago.


Hmmmmmmmmmm! ATP!

20th Feb 2003, 09:47
To get this back on track.

This topic is called 'Citiexpress lose pilots!'

Seems to me that this is all about 'market forces'. Due to a review of operations (in the wake of that well known event in autumn 2001!) both BACX and mainline BA seem to have decided they have a surplus of pilots.(and aircraft, and routes!)

As a result of the 'once in a lifetime' re-organisations, BA mainline management attempted to give all regional flying; lock stock and barrel, to BACX. A total in excess of 100 mainline pilot's jobs!!

It is an oft repeated fallacy that this operation was entirely unprofitable!

In spite of the actions of BA balpa, more than half of these jobs will still be given to BACX!(Eventually, ALL WILL!) In other words, a big expansion for BACX, who presumably, were not hoarding a box of unused pilots for this purpose!

For whatever reason, agreement could not be reached on incorporating BACX pilots onto the master seniority list. This lack of agreement had nothing whatsoever to do with turbo prop pilots 'not being good enough' for big bad BA's shiny jets!

It seems blatantly obvious that the mainline BA pilot community have lost a very large number of jobs, to the instant benefit of BACX!! If the rate of pilot retirement in BA, had been running at any less than 250 per year, no doubt we would have had to 'LOSE' pilots too!

Why do I think sympathy would have been a preciously rare commodity!

20th Feb 2003, 10:56
Tandemrotor what are you talking about ??

40 demotions and almost certain loss of jobs in the next few months is expansion eh ??

Lets just do the maths shall we , +16 RJs -12 J41s -15 Atps -12 D8s.

A loss of 23 BACX aircraft so far. Thats real expansion for BACX!!!

20th Feb 2003, 23:59


"Let's just do the maths shall we, -12 J41s, -15 ATPs, -12 D8s."

Did you mean,

"A loss of '39' BACX aircraft so far. That's real expansion for BACX!!!"

So, if that means the 16 RJs mainline BA are GIVING BACX is a bonus-


Sounds like BACX's BA association is proving extremely fruitful.

Don't you agree, hoey5o????

Ace Rimmer
21st Feb 2003, 07:39
So they're dumping the ATPs and D8s too are they?
When are these types leaving the fleet and does this mean further route cuts or are they routes going to be operated using 145s and ARJs?

Lucky Angel
21st Feb 2003, 07:43

You have no idea whats going on and i suggest you shut your big mouth

A year ago with the announcement of fsas1 we saw the closure and reduction in some of our bases(BACX).One of the closures was ABZ. Flight/Cabin crew based there were given the option to relocate or lose their jobs.
At the same time in BHX and MAN , the BAR cabin crew were filling in positions in BACX when our own people were shown the door out.
This is now repeated with flight crew. We have Captains being demoted , others told there is nothing for them to fly unless willing to move to Eastern.
Now i ask you ....why are your BA mainline Captains getting jobs with us when our own people are about to lose their jobs?
If managment want to open the BACX door to BA mainline pilots then they should do it the other way too.
Our flight/cabin crew relocated here and there and everywhere showing loyalty to the company but with no reward.
And as far as our tp drivers not being good enough then how comes the city flyer boys were?
Oh and to finish of who says your bad shiny jet mainline pilots are good enough for our a/c?

Amazon man
21st Feb 2003, 08:36
Please dont let this become another BA BACX slanging match, I think both sides are well aware of all the problems.

However all that aside I personally never had a problem with my terms and conditions whilst I worked for BRAL however now I work for BACX I am now feeling a little cheesed off having seen substantial pay rises in mainline when the company is still in debt to the tune of 5.5 billion and a second Gulf war is looming, whilst we in BACX have been given very little.

A lot of us were expecting big and better things when BA bought BRAL but unfortunately most of us have been very disappointed with the outcome, with base closures the removal of aircraft and the slow reaction to the threat of the Lo cost operators.

If BALPA and BA mainline pilots truly want to see us on their seniority lists with similar terms and conditions it would be nice to see some more support to this end, our own glorious leaders do not seem to think along those lines and have stated as much.

direct chase
21st Feb 2003, 09:32
From many previous posts:

"Until the higher level management of airlines in the UK get staffed by ex-turbo guys it will no doubt continue, as like all the best stereotypes, it has no basis in fact.

BTW, the BA attitude to TP drivers is oh so typical of that excuse for an 'airline'."

I am suprised at many of the comments, especially about BA and its alledged dislike of Turboprop pilots

Some facts

1. The current Director of Flight Operations at BA spent a large proportion of his career on Turboprops, and indeed was the Chief Pilot Highland division until 1992 ( Bae748/ATP)

2. Many current Training Captains/Managers have spent time on the Viscount/748/ATP

Whilst the techniques of operating a TP versus a jet are different, with a willingness to learn and a willing instructor, these differences can be forgotten by the end of the first sim detail

and yes I have flown both, and yes I have instructed Jet pilots onto turbprops and visa versa over the last few years.

Keep smiling


21st Feb 2003, 10:34
Amazon man,

Please tell me that your hope of things all bright and beautiful when BA bought BRAL, was said "Tongue in Cheek"?

Surely even you must have seen a disaster looming. What with the management of Waterworld, and then BRAL management allowed to continue, it was only ever going to go one way, and that was down........

That was why I made a consious decision to part company with BACX, when I had a choice of leaving my Brymon base, and move to that god forsaken rock! (Makes Alcatraz look a more attractive offer)

On the numerous occasions I met senior BRAL management, whom would eventually be at the helm of BACX, I knew that Waterworld had made an even bigger mistake leaving them in control, as it had in buying them!

Oh well, life has a funny way of turning out, so I'm off down the beach now!


21st Feb 2003, 11:42
Well said Direct Chase!

Have heard the man mentioned in your first point with my own ears saying that he thinks it is good the BA cadets got the chance to fly TP's as the experience was very valuable.

When are people going to realise that the people in BA who said that TP guys are not good enough are BA's BALPA CC!!!!

I have heard that the stopper on TP pilots going into mainline is some of the guys at the top of BACX and the BA CC. In fact I heard that BA said it was OK and that BACX management (and of course the BA CC with scope) said it wasn't!!!

I agree that many (almost all) parts of BACX have been run appallingly in the past year and I despair at some of the descisions. The only way we are going to get all this sorted is to get all of the pilots on one seniority list. One BALPA guy said to me that there is no real problem with that - just creat a 'regional' pay scale to go alongside shorthaul, mediumhaul and longhaul. I asked why BALPA weren't pushing this and I got the weakest of excuses. Perhaps we should all push BALPA to achieve one list? I reckon it would be good for BA, as well as good for the workforce.

21st Feb 2003, 13:30
Lucky Angel

What a very erudite response!

If your level of understanding and intelligence is representative of that of your colleagues, the mainline pilots working alongside you at BHX and MAN, are going to have a barrel of laughs.

You just don't get it do you!

Lucky Angel
21st Feb 2003, 16:58

It looks like you dont get it.

I have no problems with our mainline colleagues
The only problem i have is that management and BALPA seem to be making things far to complicated when in real life things are actually very simple.
Think of what has happened in the last year. BAR merges with BACX and all the 737 and A319's leave BHX and MAN. BAR crews complain that they will have to move and we complain because at some point we will have to work with people better paid and with better terms and conditions than ours.
Then they said that many of the x-city flyer rj100's where coming to bhx and man. So who was going to fly them?
It took about 8 months for them to find a solution.
Why couldn't they just say..."Oh well BAR is not going to be operating 737's and 319's but rj100's"?
That would have prevented a lot of bad comments and rumours.
But then again nothing could be that simple for management. How would they then justify there big fat salaries?

White Knight
22nd Feb 2003, 11:10
AOG007 - VERY sensible move. Just a pity the sun's disappeared for a couple of days:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .
Oh well, don't need to worry about holdover times anymore.

22nd Feb 2003, 13:05
Hey, no holdover times, but do make sure you listen out on 121.5 wont you. I believe the USS Vincennes is on its way!

Secret Squirrel
28th Feb 2003, 11:39
Rumours, rumours, rumours! I too don't know where some of you get your information from. I suspect this works a little like chinese whispers. You gleen from what you hear what is convenient to make your points. This TP rubbish is the biggest load of tosh I've ever heard. What do you think all the ex-CFE ATR guys are doing this year. I'll tell you, most of them are going to 757/767, Airbus and other fleets as the TP winds its operation down. Doesn't do much for your argument does it?

No, I strongly suspect that that there is far more to it than you are all admitting to; such as that BACX are not on BA t&c's and as such don't have a route into mainline flying (More's the pity for them). Still, never let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh?

Back to the original topic, however. I recently flew with a very nice chap from BACX on the RJ. He was originally MAN based and fresh out of line training. He told me he'd just got his roster and that all of his trips were out of BHX. He called up and asked about this to which they answered, "Oh, you're now BHX based". No warning or notice, just that! He was also told that as a result his Hotac arrangements were to cease at the end of Jan. Apart from this, they had made him do his course during his two weeks leave. Fair enough, this happens but they had no intention of giving it back to him. To add insult to injury he had to work line training during a further week's leave and they refused to pay him for it.

Is it any wonder they are losing pilots?

White Knight
28th Feb 2003, 15:38
SS - Hola amigo

good to see you're still here.


Lucky Angel
28th Feb 2003, 17:13
SS thats exactly my point about the x city flyer tp chaps. I think the problem that most of us at BACX have is the way BA have used us to protect their pilots. We had the cadets flying our tps and now BHX and MAN flight crew(mainline) staying on the RJ.
Dont get me wrong i have no problem with mainline pilots and im sure most of them are fantastic people but only to be fair they should have allowed BACX into mainline, just like mainline was allowed into BACX.

Green Ham
28th Feb 2003, 18:43
Returned home today to find the latest BACX Balpa newsletter waiting for me and was dismayed to read that the company has formally registered with the DTI the potential need for redundancies in the future.

The previous threads regarding TP pilots, of which I am one, being unable to get into BA is something that we have gone over time and time again with no resolution. Somewhere, high in the echelons of power, somebody does not like TP pilots and nothing is going to change that unless they are forced to change their opinion or removed. And this of course is not just within our parent company, BA. Our illustrious GMFO has on numerous occasions resisted any discussion and publicly voiced his opposition to BACX piots joining Mainline seniority list in case all his pilots, but most importantly his experienced pilots, decide to bid onto shiny jets out of LHR. As has been mentioned so many times before, those of us with more than a couple of years seniority are far more interested in the quality of life that we've established where we are and not the lure of long haul or whatever. This would presumably explain why there are BAR crews flying with us on the RJ. They weren't interested in moving south either.

For those of you who are interested, the name of the current mainline Director of Flight Operations at Waterside is given in an effort to prompt us to write to him and voice our concern at the present situation and the impenetrable walls erected between the two companies. I find myself in the extremely lucky position of awaiting an RJ course, yet I have just finished my letter to this individual at BA, venting my spleen that some of my hard working colleagues (and who knows with the present farcical management; myself in a couple of years) could soon find themselves out of work. All this when BA is apparently due to start recruiting DEP's in the summer.

Partly due to start up costs, but as we all appreciate mainly due to a number of poor decisions made by our managers, BACX is haemoraging money. While we are told that it would increase the crewing costs and therefore further affect our company, surely the only way to prevent the forthcoming redundancy/recruitment crisis is to put all the BACX pilots on the Mainline seniority list and be done with it. A regional payscale for BA, perhaps exactly what BACX now pays would help to reduce these costs. In the coming weeks/months/years as we presumably start making profits again, we could address the disparity in pay though our Balpa reps, and by that I mean reps representing us all. One thing is clear, if we allow our management to make redundancies whilst there are other jobs going in another part of "the group", we will only have ourselves to blame when they roll all over us again and again in the future. And paying the redundancy for God knows how many pilots ain't going to help the balance sheet either.

I would hope that we would also have the backing of the majority of Mainline pilots in this too. We all know that there are, in BA, a small minority of utter t***s who are far more interested in protecting their own interests above those of those more unfortunate than themselves. However, you only have to read recent threads to know that we have our own fair share too! In both companies, I believe the vast majority are decent human beings and so lets fight this one together....

28th Feb 2003, 20:12
I really sympathise with what you are going through it can't be much fun at the moment. I have to ask a few questions though. Has anyone actually established where this T/P rubbish came from? I can't believe any sane person would construct as ludicrous an argument as that one. Many of us started on T/P's as has been previously said.

As for mainline not letting you in, your union reps attended a meeting of the BACC sometime last year which they were invited to, I understand, as a courtesy prior to the possibility of them becoming involved in the negotiations at some stage. What happened, half way through the meeting they got up and started making proposals to BA and the BACC as to what they thought should happen. All they succeeded doing was pissing off everybody and effectively scuppering any chances of them becoming involved in the scope negotiations. They heard positioning statements from both sides which will always be extreme by the nature of negotiations. They reacted and effectively threw the baby out with the bath water. I believe that is where a lot of this rubbish has come from.

In an ideal world BACX would join the BA Master Seniority List. I hope you do. We have got to get over what happened, it was a huge mistake. It will take a long time to make up the ground and create another opportunity for this to happen. Lets hope there some experienced negotiators around for you to call on when necessary. Just for the record the letter you got from your reps at the time trumpeted the fact that they had rejected an unfair and one sided scope agreement. There was no agreement, nothing was offered so there was nothing for them to reject, so what the hell were they talking about?

Hand Solo
1st Mar 2003, 00:37
Putting aside for one moment the issue of the TPs, is it, or is it not correct that part of the negotiations on Scope would have given the BACX jet pilots preferential access to BA mainline once recruitment began and could have granted positions on the BA master seniority list to all BACX jet pilots? If it is correct, do you believe your reps were right to reject any negotiation with BA BALPA? Even if the TP pilots had, unjustifiably or otherwise, been specifically excluded from the deal, the deal itself would have allowed jet pilots to move into mainline thus freeing up jobs within the BACX jet fleets.

2nd Mar 2003, 17:14
Putting aside for one moment the issue of the TPs, is it, or is it not correct that part of the negotiations on Scope would have given the BACX jet pilots preferential access to BA mainline once recruitment began and could have granted positions on the BA master seniority list to all BACX jet pilots?

no, the deal was for a `few ` `select`jet Capts (extremely few ) who would be able to apply into mainline at some point in the future.If accepted would go where mainline decided (ie no choice to bid for any base or fleet).When you put it into prespective,a few BACX pilots given the opportunity to apply into mainline out of 600 BACX pilots,it was a derisory,especially when the flipside was to accept BA`s scope for BACX,which involved determining our aircraft size,which meant we wouldn`t be able to fly 146/Rj aircraft,which would mean mass redundancies.You can see why the offer was thrown out by BACX balpa.

2nd Mar 2003, 17:59
:mad: My personal opinion is that the upper management of BACX should go back to flying aeroplanes because they don't stand a chance of sorting the enormous mess they have created.

They show a total disregard for the welfare of their loyal hardworking employees and they display not the slightest hint of business acumen. With these charlatans running our once glorious company and with their total and absolute inability to conceive a cohesive strategy (both long and short term) we are all doomed.

The smart people will be the ones that secure alternative employment before these morons have no other option than to dump several hundred pilots and other crew on the market.

Hand Solo
2nd Mar 2003, 20:04
If accepted would go where mainline decided (ie no choice to bid for any base or fleet).

What, just like any other pilot joining mainline?

Plan 10
7th Mar 2003, 09:34
Regardles of the wishes, first 5 years of a mainline contract you can go anywhere.. having said that, they are not too bad at looking at preferences, and the guys doing the behind the scens work in postings are excellent.

In trim
7th Mar 2003, 14:42
Secret Squirrel....

Totally agree with your argument re the ex-CFE turboprop guys.

And don't forget at CFE there were a few ex mainline guys (and long-haul from other carriers) who retired off the big jets at 55 and then got chopped off the TP course as they couldn't come up to standard.

A 4 sector day to and from the channel isles in an ATR, in cr@p weather, and with tight fuel loads no doubt provides a far better training ground than sitting at 35,000 feet for hours with the autopilot on.

8th Mar 2003, 12:49
WELL SAID GREEN HAM. Divide and rule on both sides of the burning bridge?

One point to mull over that may provide a clue why/how the Turboprop pilots are not invited.

TP pilots when converting onto jets within BA would require base training regardless of whether CAA approved ZFT simulators existed. TP pilots would also take quite a few extra sectors on average to become familiarised with the different energy management considerations for jets.

If TP guys are excluded it's a quite disturbing and unfair exclusion but I think the likeliest culprit would be found in the short term budget projections at Flight Ops.

"The cost of everything the value of nothing" - If only the experiences of TP pilots could be quantified eh?

Does this mean BA will stop employing ex-Hercules pilots now? :p

8th Mar 2003, 16:10
I'm not sure about the ex Brymon crews, but certainly a reasonable number of the ex BRAL turboprop Captains have previous jet experience. BRAL used to prefer that you had flown the Embraer before your first turborop command. I know its not a big jet, but it was a jet!

8th Mar 2003, 17:33
When I was recruited in 1997 BA quoted the figure of hours on a jet over 40,000kgs, so maybe it is not just as straightforward as time on jets? When is a jet not a jet?!!!!

8th Mar 2003, 19:51
When I was recruited in 1997 BA quoted the figure of hours on a jet over 40,000kgs, so maybe it is not just as straightforward as time on jets? When is a jet not a jet?!!!!

I guess this means, size does matter;)

White Knight
9th Mar 2003, 15:12
"energy management" - a jet has a lot more energy than a TP, so it's easier to manage. Just my opinion having gone from ATR to Avro RJ and now 330. Jets far easier to fly. Never had it so easy.
Tha whole attitude to TP pilots is a load of cods !!! If you can fly a TP you can fly anything. Good luck to all you BACX guys - I was CFE and have left BA, best move I ever made. (no offence to the nigels- I just didn't like the way the company was run) :cool: :cool: :cool:

9th Mar 2003, 19:33
White Knight,

I have yet to fly a jet that can keep 220 kts to 5 miles and still be configured by 1000R. However the ATP with the props to max. Jumpers for goalposts hmmm.

Anyway, I was just being a Devils Advocate. The more TP pilots in BA the better. Anyone who can succesfully do the Fail to Feather drill on a six monthly basis has my vote.

10th Mar 2003, 16:42

I have yet to fly a jet that can keep 220 kts to 5 miles and still be configured by 1000R

Having flown the ATP I know what you mean, but it can be done in the 145 except for the QAR !!