Information Needed on PPL to comercial pilot road.

[imagine]

Hello all, before I start, I just hope this is the right forum (was either this or the Wannabe forum).

Anyway; I've always been interested in flying but would really like to continue it as a career as a commercial pilot rather than just a hobby (reason why I was confused where to post it). I have no licence at present, and am only really going to start after uni (if I don't drop out! :)) in about 2 and a half years time.

The problem is that I have no idea on where to start. I've visited the British Airways website and seen their pilot training scheme et al, which all seem to be non-existant at the moment, so I'm pretty stuck. I have the qualifications needed, according to theirs, and many other sites, to which I'm already qualified academically. So what would be the best starting point to get into the career of commercial piloting (besides the RAF :))?

Would I be better getting a PPL before looking for aviation firms? Do I really need physics and maths qualifications above GCSE standard (rumours I've heard) :)? I presume just wearing glasses for driving and such won't mean automatic rejection *hope*? Plus anymore relevant things someone could inform me on.

As you can see, I'm clueless, which isn't a good sign I suppose. So I'd be grateful for any help.

Thanks :).

[Genghis the Engineer]

Firstly, I'd strongly suggest changing the title of the thread to something a lot more specific.

Right, onto the specifics:-

- You'd be daft to set your course for a CPL before doing some purely recreational flying first. You may find that you hate flying, or are the worlds worst pilot, and it's best to find out cheaply. Also, if you can't make that much effort on your own, who is likely to pay for your training ?

- I'd suggest going to the careers section on the Royal Aeronautical Society Website at www.raes.org.uk and downloading their booklet "so you want to be a pilot?" which covers most of the routes to employment, what is required, and what they pay.

- There are minimum standards of eyesight you need, you can find them on www.srg.caa.co.uk if you hunt aound a bit.

- If you only have GCSE maths and physics but enjoyed and succeedeed in them, you may be okay. If you struggled with those and doubt you could manage any further, you may have a problem because much of PPL/CPL groundschool training uses similar concepts.

- Finally, I think you'd have been better off posting to Wanabees.

G

[Whirlybird]

imagine,

I think wannabes has a policy of directing questions concerning the PPL to this forum, so you may have been right to post it here. On the other hand, you're asking a lot more than that. If I were you I'd start a thread there too, and if it gets moved, so be it. But as Genghis said, a more specific title might be better; a lot of us don't have time to read every thread, and we skip ones with vague titles. Come to think of it, I might start a thread on that very subject; please don't take it personally if I do...

As for your questions, the BWPA (British Women Pilots' Association) has a very good booklet on becoming a professional pilot. You don't have to be female to either buy it or benefit from it! I can't remember either the name of the booklet or the website address, but if you do a search you should be able to find it and get the details, or a phone number at least.

Other than that, a few searches on PPRuNe, either here or on wannabes, should answer a lot of your questions. You see, you're not the first to have been clueless and not know where to start; most of the stuff you want is probably here, somewhere.

Good luck!

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

I think you should try doing some flying before even thinking about doing it as a career. Also if your doing some thing useful at uni, stick to it! Its very difficult to get your foot in the door at present! Just have a read on the wannabe forum!:eek:

[Skylark4]

If you were sufficiently interested in flying, you would have been reading all the magazines you could lay your hands on for the last five years or more and would know all the answers to the questions you have just asked.
Perhaps you became interested in flying late in life (i.e. after puberty) in which case you could have found out all the answers to your questions by lurking on this and other aviation boards for a while or even by looking through the archives.

Just to save you some time, forget about the Royal Air Force.
1 They don`t want anyone as poorly motivated as you.
2 You wear glasses, so you have failed at the first hurdle.

Sorry about what many of you may think of as an unneccessarily harsh response but I`m afraid I get a bit short with people who expect others to do all the work for them.

Mike W

[Whirlybird]

Skylark,

What you have posted is complete and utter cr@p! :mad: (most of it anyway; the RAF and eyesight thing I don't know about)

1) imagine said he'd always been interested in flying, not bloody addicted. Many of us started that way, and didn't get hooked till we got our hands on the controls. Everyone's different. No law that you can't try for a career in aviation unless you were born looking at the sky.
2) He found PPRuNe didn't he? If everyone did searches before asking questions, over half the questions on here wouldn't be asked, and many people would be a lot worse off for it. I know; I've been on this forum since it started - rather regularly, as you might have noticed.
3) What the hell makes you such an expert on motivation, from someone's FIRST POST! As a psychology graduate who's worked as an occupational psychologist helping people with career changes, I can't tell that easily. Please enlighten me. :rolleyes:
4) If you don't like questions being asked on PPRuNe, no-one's forcing you to read them or answer them.

And in case you think my response to you is a bit harsh, I get a bit short with people who jump to conclusions about someone else's motives and attitudes on very little evidence, and vent their frustrations on new posters to this forum who are asking genuine and relevant questions. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Beethoven]

Thats the trouble with the internet I suppose Whirly...there are always those who dismiss folk's entire existence on the basis of one post as if they have the right to decide who is allowed in "the club".I will always remember when some oaf who is a pro heli pilot (alledgedly...) flamed me for "wasting the time of real pro pilots" and you yourself supported me ( I had a different user name then) and several others gave me the info I needed.I am now on the verge of getting my CPL and it has been with the help if many people on this forum that I have managed not to make too many wrong decisions on the way.Poeple,please remember that this is not the place to make snap judgements on the basis of one post...human beings are all worth more than that.
Best Wishes Imagine...see you up in the sky soon.
Beet

[Beethoven]

I was going to edit my previous post to correct the spelling of "People"..but I would not wish to deprive that other fine bunch of pompous prats known to many as the "spelling police" of their fun now,would I.
On a more serious note,Imagine...Have you actually flown yet?One word of caution,I spent at least 2 years looking skyward dreaming of being a pilot...I saved and saved and had my first PPL lesson and was sick as a dog!! I was devastated that I hated it after all my dreaming.BUT..I perservered and once my tummy had got a bit more used to it,it was (and still is) EVERYTHING I imagined it would be....Please let us know if you have any experience or if not,whether you plan to take a trial flight soon.:cool:
Beet

[Skylark4]

Imagine.
Please don`t take my earlier post personally. You just managed to hit on a raw nerve whilst I was rather `tired and emotional`. (To translate that phrase into English, you will need to lurk on the military forum for a while.)

Whirly and Beethoven, in my defence:-
`Always interested`, in my book, means that you are sufficiently interested in a subject to read the odd book and pick up the occasional magazine. A little more enthusiasm would have led to, in the case of flying in particular, to visits to flying clubs or schools or maybe visits to a Gliding club or membership of the ATC.
Your case was a little different Whirly, in that you took a lesson on a whim and got hooked so you didn`t have any previous background.
Now, with what I have just said in mind, re-read the original post and it comes out as follows:-

First paragraph.
I think being an Airline Pilot would be cool. I`m not really interested in flying per se or I would have done something about it by now. This university lark isn`t as much fun as I thought it would be. I`ve done a whole term and I think I might give up now.

Second paragraph.
As I`ve only just thought about being a pilot, the only site I could think of to look at is the B.A. one and there wasn`t a button to click to join up.

Third paragraph.
Someone please tell me that my barely adequate qualifications are just what the Airlines want.


Etc.,etc..

On the other hand,( heads up Beethoven) it was good to read a post in respectable English, with no grammatical errors.
You may think that this is trivial, but it really worries me that the guy flying over my head with an aircraft full of military nastiness, or the guy up front, taking me and 400 other trusting people across the Atlantic in an aircraft full of computers and dials and check lists and rules and regulations, cannot write in his own language after practising it every day for at least twenty years.

I expect to get flamed again but that`s the way I read it.

Whirly.
A genuine and relevant question would go along the lines of:- I have read this and I have read that and they differ here. Which one is right or is there a Third Way?

If I were you, I wouldn`t boast about being a Psycho Grad or about being an Occupational Psychologist.

Mike W

Imagine.
To answer a part of your question, no you do not need qualifications beyond GCSE in maths or Physics but you will need ability in them far beyond. The exams for ATPL are not easy. Flying the aircraft is the easy bit. I know very intelligent people who have successfully passed the flying part of the course and have not managed to pass all the exams.

Mike W

[Kefuddle_UK]

Perhaps you became interested in flying late in life (i.e. after puberty) in which case you could have found out all the answers to your questions by lurking on this and other aviation boards for a while or even by looking through the archives.
At the risk of being guilty of perpetrating a pet hate of mine - diverting a thread into an argument - I agree with the fundemental message Sky delivered. Although I think the technique could do with a little polishing ;)

Basically, I am astonished at just how many people post questions that even as little as an hours research could yield so much more than forum questions could ever hope to meet. My guess is that if one is not fundementally a "go get it" person then one is not going get anywhere in a training process where what appears to be enough effort will be no where near enough effort.

[Whirlybird]

If I were doing research (and I do it for a living; not boasting, honest!), I'd post on this forum, among a load of other things. Why not - leave no stone unturned. Come to think of it, why not do it first; you'd get to talk to some real people.

Boast about being a psych graduate or occupational psychologist? I wasn't, and I wouldn't bother. :eek: I quit after a year anyway. BUT it did mean I dealt with a lot of people who wanted to change career, enough to know that you can't jump to snap conclusions about what people want, or can or can't do, or anything, especially when they're very young (though some older people are pretty adaptable too). By the end of that year I was getting pretty cynical too - but then one of them would surprise me. Nowt so queer as folks - which was the only thing that made the job bearable.

[Kefuddle_UK]

Whirly,
f I were doing research (and I do it for a living; not boasting, honest!), I'd post on this forum, among a load of other things. Why not - leave no stone unturned. Come to think of it, why not do it first; you'd get to talk to some real people.
Fair enough. I think the content of such a post would be a little more pointed but I think I am now nit-picking!

Sky,

On the other hand,( heads up Beethoven) it was good to read a post in respectable English, with no grammatical errors.
You may think that this is trivial, but it really worries me that the guy flying over my head with an aircraft full of military nastiness, or the guy up front, taking me and 400 other trusting people across the Atlantic in an aircraft full of computers and dials and check lists and rules and regulations, cannot write in his own language after practising it every day for at least twenty years.
No flames :) However, it isn't possible to judge somebody by their smelling. For instance very many very talented computer poorgramers are notoriously bad spellers; don't think of the stereotypical teenage hacker. It probably has more to do with the way such a person thinks. Those with an artistic bent also tend to be superb writers and journalists.

However, If your point is that a good commercial pilot is an extremely adept generalist then I cannot argue.

[FlyingForFun]

Imagine,

Get hold of a book by Clive Hughes, called Getting A Commercial Pilot License (http://www.transair.co.uk/pages/books/gettingacomm.htm). It's not easy reading, but it'll answer most of your questions.

One thing you need to realise is that you will have to pay for your training yourself - there are very few people who will sponsor anyone at the moment, especially if you don't have relevant A-Levels. You'll be looking at around £30k minimum - so start saving now!

Good luck!

FFF
-----------------

PS - I only found out about this book by asking others... in my case, it happened to be my PPL instructor who recommended it to me. But if you don't ask questions you won't find answers, so ignore Skylark, use the Search button, and if you can't find what you need, ask away.

[Skylark4]

FFF.
use the Search button, and if you can't find what you need, ask away.

Exactly.

I have no problem with answering questions, even if they seem a little dumb, it`s when people ask without any effort to find the answer themselves.

Mike W

[big.al]

Well done to triple F who once again provides informative help, rather than being dragged into an Internet squabble over who-said-what etc.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people just post on this forum to argue with someone. In these trying times we should stick together - I have gained some very valuable advice from people on this website and have been happy to pass on my (very limited) experience to those still wanting to achieve their goal, if I can be of any assistance.

Imagine - I know that the publishers of FLYER magazine hold a couple of 'training exhibitions' each year (usually London and Manchester although no doubt someone will want to correct me if I'm wrong). :rolleyes: There are usually lectures on how to become a commercial pilot, trade stands from lots of training organisations etc, which can give you an idea of the (massive) costs involved.

Some very limited sponsorships schemes are beginning to appear but the competition for such places would probably be so intense as to rule out this option (it is certainly not something to rely on). Therefore self-funding is really the only option. Loans are available towards the costs (HSBC do a Professional Studies Loan, but may require security on property).

There are two basic routes - the 'modular' route (in which you complete the training in stages - imaginatively called modules) and the 'integrated' route, for which you join a full-time course (typically a year or more) and train from either PPL level or ab-initio right up to Frozen ATPL (where you have the qualifications for an ATPL but don't have the 1500 flying hours logged yet). Integrated courses are probably in the region of £50,000. Ouch.
Modular can cost less, or it can cost more, I guess it all depends on your skills and how long you take to learn.

Get a copy of FLYER, PILOT and Flight International magazines (any decent newsagent should have them - Flight International is weekly and the other two are out monthly); research the multitude of ads. from FTOs and get in contact with them - you can find out quite a lot that way.

Atlantic Flight Training's website (www.flyaft.com) has a simple 'flowchart' of the steps involved in becoming a commercial/airline transport pilot.

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck. And if some people appear unhelpful - mention no names - don't give up, there will be others who will give you advice.;)

[Skylark4]

Comittment. (have I spelled that correctly?)

Young Tony joined our gliding club and won a cadetship which gave him so many hours of free flying in return for labouring on the field. He bought a share in `my` Skylark 4 with the money he earned working in a Supermarket. He achieved a Silver Badge and tried to get into the Airline schemes, no luck. Whilst doing his `A` levels he converted his Silver into an SLMG licence.( At his own expense, naturally with some help from his parents) He still hopes to get into the airlines so he is now doing a course at Shoreham which will lead to a CAA Engineers ticket. I think he now has a Group A licence and must have a year to go at Shoreham.
This lad deserves to get there but whether he will or not is another matter. It certainly won`t be for want of effort on his part.

Mike W

[imagine]

Sorry for the late reply, just wanted to let the thread run its course :). Oh and thanks for changing the topic title.

Skylark - My questions were broad for numerous reasons:
1) It was 4:10am when I posted the thread (hence the really crap style)
2) I wanted a quick to the point thread. That was my intention.

Just because my questions were open and lacked specificity, does not mean I haven't researched the areas in question, I was simply asking for more information, more knowledge. For example, I had already seen the CAA eyesight requirements (although they do go into quite a lot of detail) - thanks though Genghis, especially for the url to the pdf booklet. Also, I had not just visited the BA website, but many other airlines' too, that was just the first one I visited and I mentioned it for that reason (with hindsight I can see why that looks like no effort on my part). Next time I'll remember to write a 3 page thread, which you'll probably just skip / skim read anyway, detailing my every journey on the internet like a flight manual. The point about me not knowing the information also lacks integrity - I do not believe a prerequisite to being interested in flying is owning flying magazines for the past few years. Oh and for your information, I'm not "poorly motivated", I'm at a top university in the country studying one of the top degrees, so please don't patronise me.

I'm sorry for a sarcastic tone in my post, but I'm not too impressed at someone believing they know the ins and outs of someone from one post they've made on the internet. There are always people like you on forums - the people who believe the same question shouldn't be asked twice, that people should use the search function constantly before asking a question (/stereotyping :))...well I'm sorry, but instead of checking your spelling (it's commitment by the way), you should instead look up "forum" in the dictionary.

Thanks to everyone that helped (even you Skylark), especially big.al - the flowchart is very good (I honestly thought it wouldn't cost that much though :(). Oh and goodluck to Young Tony, the motivated man, although, the fact that his parents helped him is a differentiating factor between me and him.

Oh and above all, Merry Christmas :).

[Skylark4]

Imagine.
Glad to see you back. It shows spirit to return.

Your original post was not "to the point" which was why it annoyed me in the first place. You might just as well have asked"How do I become a brain surgeon?" The research required to produce a genuinely pointed question consisted of no more than reading the current posts on this and the wannabes forum.

Anyway, this argument is played out now. Welcome back and we all wish you all the best with whatever you wish to do.

Mike W