FlyBE Pilot Exodus!

[oh BEhave]

While our post are being (re)moved with the speed of light, we keep on trying to get some info on the original tread.
Thanks for the info smokie. I managed to view it before the tread got moved seconds later!!!!
Anybody more info on how many pilots are leaving and from which bases?:eek: :eek: :eek:

[2 BE or not 2 BE]

It seems to me that about a dozen have resigned the last month from a couple of bases and I wouldn't be suprised if more followed shortly.

[Not in BritAir]

Yes, no, maybe...

I confirm?!:D :D :D

[Raw Data]

It's pretty obvious the person who started the topic deleted it, probably as it was about to get embarrassing for easyjet. Pity, it was warming up nicely!

I seem to recall that, with the removal from service of the CRJ, we needed to lose about 28 (might have been 23) pilots to avoid redundancies.

Therefore, the company has allowed people to leave with reduced notice periods in order to encourage a reduction in the pilot workforce- this being preferable to redundancies.

The point here is that the company is more than happy to see the people leave, as it saves them having to make redundant those who don't want to leave (ie most of us).

So, what could be perceived as a "flood" of resignations is, in fact, the best thing that could happen (from a financial point of view).

All the talk of "everybody trying to leave" is wishful thinking on some peoples' parts.

There was a lot of other bilge on the original thread, so let's not go there.

[carlos vandango]

so far I am hearing..3 from BHD CRJ, 1 BHD 146, 2 LGW 146, 3 EDI 146. Not a lot in the grand scheme of things but quite a few attending Orange tree hugging seminars. They're not all off to EZY so the market must be picking up a bit.;)

[keepitlit]

RD

Could you explain what is ment by" some people were only wishfully thinking".

Rgds

K.I.L.:confused:

[crowndove]

Raw data. please check the latest letter from Mike Wood to the CRJ pilots.
Bit of a different story...

[Sensible Garage]

more than a few who wanted to leave had to sit out their 3 months and could not leave directly, apparently when the flood started to increase (I will not start about the tricks the company plays over the bonds to these people, oeps, I just did)

Carlos, some additions to your list : BHD is now 4 ex CRJ, BHX is losing 4 ex CRJ, wasn't EDI 4 ex 146? and believe the Channel Islands are losing a few also, don't forget we lost beside all this about 8 CRJ captains over the summer/autumn

[AMEX]

Couple of guys in the C.I have received calls from D. Darby in the past few weeks. Not for an interview but just to monitor their whereabouts and situation. Sure sounds like Flybe is preparing should they need to recruit.

[puddle-jumper]

FlyBe management need to stop thinking of the present and start looking at the future. The reason people are leaving now is because the market is picking up and they have somewhere else to go. Yes it make's it easier for them to leave without needing to give 3 months notice but when that deal ends do you really think it will stop the 'flood' ? Basically there will always be a certain percentage who are thinking of leaving, the difference now is that job they have been waiting for is becoming available, having to give 3 months notice is not going to stop them, just delay things a little.

For those of you who think I'm trying to scare the management into giving us a huge pay rise - think what you like. What is really going to P*%S me off is when we find ourselves short of pilots next year, the increased training costs are going to eat away at any profits and probably that huuuuuge pay rise too.:eek:

[2 BE or not 2 BE]

Puddle Jumper. I agree with you only partially. If the exodus continues and the company has to start training new pilots they’ll still have to do something to stop people from leaving.
And I guess a pay rise would certainly help to stop a lot of pilots from leaving???

It would also help I guess if the company didn’t think the future of the company is the Q400.
I’m sure it’s a great aircraft to fly and an awesome machine compared to the 200’s and 300’s.
But turboprop’s are not the future for a large regional carrier, the lack of speed, comfort, reliability and passenger appeal.
I know that seat/mile costs is a big thing in our company and that it is used to justify the use of the D8. But I often wonder if Exeter took into consideration that with a Jet one can simply do more sectors a day because it’s faster and thus increasing revenues.
I’m convinced that the D8 would make an excellent freighter, but scheduled airline ops???

[oic]

I believe there currently is a shortage of CRJ crew. Apparently, people have been offered CRJ courses. Meanwhile, somebody who is rated on the CRJ is doing a course for the dash, which does not make sense to me.

I believe that people are leaving because they are fed up with FlyBE. Salaries are way below the average, no payrise whatsoever - not even inflation - for years, frozen duty pay, no real career progression, etc.

These issues will have to be addressed soon.

If the company are changing the ration of TP versus JETs in favour of the turboprops, I reckon many people will leave simply because they are stuck on the dash without any real prospects of getting on a jet in the forseeable future.

[excrab]

2BE or not 2BE

Regarding your argument about turboprops and jets I'm not sure how valid it is. I believe that the q400 sector times from BHX to EDI ( for example ) are only about 5 minutes less than the 146, so given 8 sectors a day that only leaves you with an extra 40 minutes airborne time to earn more money - perhaps a BHX-MAN route might just be fitted in. Admittedly an Airbus or Boeing might gain more time but would require a huge investment in marketing to fill it, and marketing seems to have died down after the flurry in the summer.

If you want to get more sectors in on a network such as Flybe has the only way is to have a longer flying day - most flybe aircraft are back on the ground by 2100hrs. But to do that you need to attract passengers to fill them.

Don't get me wrong - I'd rather fly a jet and the way things are it looks like I might end up flying a Q400 instead but the problems are not just about aircraft types - management and marketing are the two words which spring to mind.

[Raw Data]

keepitlit

Simply that some people long for that story to come true, because they think it would result in a salary hike.

crowndove

Having read that letter, I see no conflict with what I said- remember that I was talking about the situation when resignations with reduced notice were first publicised. We have now had as many resignations as we required, so we now want to retain any on the CRJ fleet who want to stay. In fact, I think that letter states the situation well, and is a welcome piece of encouragement from management.

Sensible Garage

Obviously, as soon as it was clear that we would not have to make redundancies, the "early departure" scheme stopped. What did you expect to happen? The bond is a completely seperate issue, it is there to cover training costs- the company is quite within its rights to enforce the bond, the conditions of which you agreed with when you signed it. Allowing people to leave early was a concession to permit folk to take up other employment if they so desired. Prefer forced redundancies, would you?

AMEX

There are no current plans to recruit, apart from the Cabair cadets we have committed to.

puddle-jumper

The reason people are leaving now, is because 1) this is the usual time for the charter operators to hire for the summer; and 2) there is an ongoing opportunity with the low-cost carriers.

People will always move through an airline like flybe. There hasn't yet been a "flood", and I will bet money there won't be.

Training costs, well, sure there will be training costs when we hire again- but the cost of keeping crews sitting on their tods doing nothing for six months is fairly expensive too.

oic

There is CRJ course provisionally pencilled in for early in the new year. It is the course that was deferred in September. It is unlikely to proceed as we are unlikely to be flying the aircraft in the new year.

You may be fed up, but I doubt you speak for the majority. You are wrong in any case, I got my increment last year so I have had a (very small) pay rise. Didn't you get yours?

There is no real career progression if you are the Jet Flight Manager, otherwise, there is. If you think it is slow in flybe, try Britannia or Monarch...

It's funny how you contradict yourself, you start out saying people are fed up and everybody wants to leave, then say that there is no career progression to the jet- because, presumably, nobody is leaving the jet fleet!

excrab

You are partly right- however, the real limit on flying for us is that a lot of the airports we fly to close early (like the Channel Islands or Belfast City for example). Very few people really want to travel on commuter routes late at night in any case.

I find it hard to pick faults with a management that has got us out of a serious hole since last year- and now has us back in the black, more than can be said for many airlines- and a marketing department that has spent a huge amount of money and has seen a corresponding rise in passenger figures- not to mention the huge success of our website. Perhaps you need to talk to somebody who was at Kickstart to see just how well we have done.

[2 BE or not 2 BE]

Excrab.

When I mentioned the word Jet, I was talking about an average modern Jet, not the 146, which even referred to as turboprop by some of it’s own crew.
I was thinking about Jet’s like Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Dornier, Embraer or Fokker.

Raw Data.

I find it hard to pick faults

How about the lack of communication with it’s personnel?
There seems to be a lot of info about the company on PPRuNe.
For instance You are saying we are back in the black. :)
I haven’t seen that in any company info!?!? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[oic]

RD:
I don't recall saying that I was fed up - nor am I claiming to be speaking on behalf of the majority - I just stated that I believe that those people who leave do so for the reasons outlined in my post.

Increments are just a (very small) reward for your loyalty. I would not call this a pay-rise. If you worked for EasyJet, you could look forward to a 5% loyalty bonus after two years - a commander would get an extra £3000. In comparison, I would classify our 500-odd quid as an insult.

I am not contradicting myself by stating that a lot of people will be stuck on the dash. I suggest you re-read my post.

"you start out saying people are fed up and everybody wants to leave"

I did not. I said that people are leaving, I never said everybody wants to leave.

", then say that there is no career progression to the jet- because, presumably, nobody is leaving the jet fleet!"

Exactly! That's why people are stuck on the Dash! More TP's = Less Jet jobs.

I would appreciate it if you took the time to read the post carefully before commenting.

Cheers!

[Smokie]

RD,

Well today I've got it on good authority that 3 more 146 pilots
have resigned, one is off to the land of Orange starting very early in the New Year.

You were saying about no more early releases ?
:rolleyes:

[agcat]

Hey chaps- do not worry - seen it all before over many years,
pilots will move on at this time of year (ask Jo S)may cost the company in further training expense!
Also, I know a lot of pilots who found the grass was not greener on the otherside - more brown and working b*****ks off.

[Raw Data]

2 BE or not 2 BE

How about the lack of communication with it’s personnel?For instance You are saying we are back in the black.
I haven’t seen that in any company info!?!?

That information was aired at Kickstart. See your Base Captain. Or ask your Fleet Manager. The info is there if you want it. Or do you want a personal call from the GM???

By faults, I was talking about faults in the management of the business- there is absolutely no doubt that our management have done an excellent job of that. Communication is icing on the cake compared to keeping the business afloat- however I would be the first to acknowledge that communication is woefully inadequate.

oic

Increments are just a (very small) reward for your loyalty. I would not call this a pay-rise.

If your pay went up, it was a pay rise. In my version of english, at any rate...!!!

If you worked for EasyJet, you could look forward to a 5% loyalty bonus after two years - a commander would get an extra £3000. In comparison, I would classify our 500-odd quid as an insult.

Sure. We could do that too, but the company would fold the next day. We can only pay what we can afford. When we are making more profit, salaries will go up. You can hardly use easyjet as a good example, as pressure there seems to be on lowering salaries, not raising them- not to mention their practice of giving their managers a huge sum and not rewarding the troops accordingly. Besides, you have to put up with a lot of crap to get the salary (working all hours, having them promise you a base and then change their minds, etc).

Exactly! That's why people are stuck on the Dash! More TP's = Less Jet jobs.

Not unless we get rid of jets, otherwise the jet jobs stay the same.

I did read your posts (on the previous thread as well) and stand by my reply.

Smokie

They were either released back at the beginning of this saga, or they have cut a deal. I didn't say that there would be no more early relaeases, only that the company would do that if they needed to in order to avoid redundancies. Unless you know all the facts of each individual case, you aren't telling us anything new.

[oic]

RD:

From your post:

"Not unless we get rid of jets, otherwise the jet jobs stay the same."

Absolutely! And since we are reducing the number of jets and increasing the number of TP's, that's exactly what's happening.

From my original post:

"If the company are changing the ratio of TP versus JETs in favour of the turboprops, I reckon many people will leave simply because they are stuck on the dash without any real prospects of getting on a jet in the forseeable future"

Hope you get my point.

From your post:
"If your pay went up, it was a pay rise. In my version of english, at any rate...!!!"

I would argue that if your salary increased at a rate lower than inflation, you would experience a pay-cut. If you want to call it a pay-rise, be my guest, but I'd say your remark is a bit naive.

Cheers.

[Smokie]

RD ,

I'd say they either cut a deal or were "worth" the early release.
My money is on the latter, as it has not even been two weeks since their "weekend away", so their notice is very,very, recent !



WRT Payrise's the money is always there, it just needs to be budgeted for , just like any other expense .

Perhaps the tumble drier down below 50 north needs to be on a slower setting. ;)

[Raw Data]

oic

Where do you get the idea we are reducing the number of jets? The overall number of jets should stay substantially the same. If you want more info on that, ask on the private forum. Ask about the fleet manning levels as publicised at Kickstart.

Smokie

WRT Payrise's the money is always there, it just needs to be budgeted for , just like any other expense .

That is, to say the least, naive. OK then, we'll raise the salaries and stop buying fuel...

Just what do you think we could cut in order to increase salaries...???

[oic]

RD:
If my information is correct, the CRJ's are about to go. I also believe that FlyBE has already gotten rid of some of the older 146's - correct me if I'm wrong. Meanwhile, the dash-fleet has expanded. I would say that the ratio of jets vs TP's has changed.

[2 BE or not 2 BE]

RAW DATA

Unfortunately I was not at the kickstart meeting. I was flying that day. Someone has to work so the company earns some money (to waist it again on hotac costs etc.) If the fleet manager or GM have some info that most of us pilots consider worth knowing wouldn’t it be easier if they send us a letter of some sort, rather than receiving 200 or more phone calls from its personnel?
But I’m glad you’re saying:
I would be the first to acknowledge that communication is woefully inadequate.

BTW

having them promise you a base and then change their minds, etc

That's been done by FlyBE as well!!!
A couple of guys have had 3 base changes in 4 months after joining us. Or being based in TLS only to be based in BHX approx. 11 months later.

[oic]

No worries - I reckon you'll get the 'kickstart video' as a Christmas bonus! :D

[2 BE or not 2 BE]

Cool!
Is there also a kickstart video game? a shooter? :D :D :D

[carlos vandango]

at risk of sounding contraversial (again), it would appear that Easyjet have abolished their assessment procedure in favour of 'drawing straws'. Or perhaps 4 weeks notice earns you a free ILS in the sim . For those left in Flybe the problems of promotion should begin to be addressed...more jet positions to fill.
And before anybody starts..yes I know the vast majority of Flybe crew are good. I'm sure the good ones that are off to Easy will be missed.;)

[NDBDME]

This is great!!

NO future at Flybe

RD as you know I am a Q400 driver you have been on the jump seat you know how good it is but not good for the airline!! your words not mine. The real picture is many people do want to stay with Flybe but more are going to leave!!!:cool:

[Raw Data]

oic

You are correct- if you only look at the disposal of the CRJs. However, the fleet acquistion plan stretches until 2005. Therefore the final numbers of each type are somewhat different to what you obviously perceive them to be.

2 BE or not 2 BE

If the fleet manager or GM have some info that most of us pilots consider worth knowing wouldn’t it be easier if they send us a letter of some sort, rather than receiving 200 or more phone calls from its personnel?

The way it is supposed to work, is that each Base Captain is invited to attend the Kickstart, and they then cascade the information down to the pilots and cabin crew at their base. It is actually a very 2002 way of doing things, but it relies on managers (ie base captains etc), to cascade the information.

That's been done by FlyBE as well!!! A couple of guys have had 3 base changes in 4 months after joining us.

The crucial word there is "after". Once you join, you are given (hopefully) a contract which, amongst other things, specifies under what circumstances the company can change your base. I know something about this, having had four bases in four years. On the other hand, Easy employed people who accepted the job on the basis of the base they were offered. Once they had resigned from their jobs with Flybe, Easy changed the rules (and their bases). Flybe don't operate in quite such an underhand way. But don't take my word for it, ask those affected (at least one of which tried to get back into Flybe as soon as he found out he was being shipped off to Liverpool or somewhere). As I understand it, you now don't get assigned a base until you complete your final line check. Makes me bl**dy glad I declined their offer.

Finally, I echo what carlos vandango says- the good ones that have left will be missed indeed (certainly the EDI ones, by me).

[Goforfun]

easyJet is the natural progression from a company like BE. Its the move into the big airline world- flying bigger aeroplanes- further and for more money!

BE is a great place to start off.... but a dead end.

[AMEX]

Raw Data

There are no current plans to recruit, apart from the Cabair cadets we have committed to.
I am sure this correct although getting phone calls just within days after submitting your CV can be taken as a sign of things to come,... perhaps.

Apparently nothing anticipated until Exeter knows/decides the fate of the CRJ which is still uncertain (although i understand HF is being fitted which could be useful to market the A/C in some parts of the world).

As for the rest, I know notin' :D

[Smokie]

Contracts, there's another great British tradition gone by the way side . Seems to me they only honour contracts when it suits them ; I am sick and tired of counting the myraid of breaches of the afore mentioned.

And yes many moons ago my base was changed about a week prior to joining and after I had handed in my notice at the previous company. So no stranger to that one either I'm afraid.

There is certainly one "Character" from north of the Wall, who I'm sure a lot of people will be glad to see the back of.

RD, wise up pal, you need to take a closer look at what has been going on below 50 north and certainly take what ever you are told from Fantasy Island with a very large pinch of salt .

And to quote another infamous character on pprune:-

"It ain't gona change any time soon "

[carlos vandango]

I hear EZY are modifying their sim..giving much more headroom in the front and strengthening the compression struts. That should cover all eventualities.:D

[Raw Data]

Goforfun

The big airline world? Well, maybe, but not a lot of variety. After 20 years or so in Easy, you will still be flying around in 737/A320 (probably knackered by then), to the same long runways.

I prefer the variety we get in Flybe myself, but, each to his own, whatever floats your boat.

Most people who have been in the business for any length of time realise that going from Flybe (or a similar-sized airline) to Easy (or whatever) is just more of the same. If you think Easy is nirvana, explain all the discontent amongst their employees that seems to spill over onto this forum. The only value is the type rating, but even that is becoming questionable. Easyjet is as much a dead end as Flybe is.


AMEX

Flybe (in common with many airlines) often takes the temperature of the pilot pool.

Smokie

Still having trouble understanding why you haven't left for Big Orange if you are so disenchanted with your present circumstances. Why is that exactly?

If the company has breached your contract so often, I imagine you have spoken to Balpa. What did they say?

I wonder how many others have had their base changed before they started. Anyone...???

As it happens, I do keep a close eye on what goes on, but I get my information from the managers concerned, not the local rumour mill. I trust my managers.

There are two types of pilot in any airline. One type does his or her best to fit in, evaluates everything from a position of balance, and realises that there is a lot more to running an airline than flying planes.

The other type doubts everything, is deeply distrustful of any manager, and feels he or she can do every job in the airline better than the person doing it.

One type tends to have a more successful time than the other...

[the_tyke]

Well done Pprune or whoever it was that removed the original post !
You simply can't have people giving totally ridiculous and innacurate information over a public forum which could damage a Company and therefore put our jobs at risk.
Why does everybody assume that we all want to go to Easyjet ? Yes, the pay needs addressing urgently but having read the posts on other Airlines recently, your going to get heart-ache wherever you go.
My Brother fly's for Easyjet, so I get a lot of first-hand info from him. 'Wild horses' would'nt drag me there at the moment !

[Ace Rimmer]

OIC yep the Q400 is not only quick and it's not just the cruise but the up and down rates as well. The numbers I've heard agree with your 5 mins slower on BHX-EDI but here's the kick, it does it on about half the fuel burn.

I reckon you blokes at fly BE need to get a grip of a T/P future. The word I've heard is that the bearded one has been spending a lot of time in Toronto of late negotiating a swop of the CRJs for more Q400s (seems they haven't agreed the ratio of Q4s for CRJs or some such but expect an announcement before very long) so it's D8s or quadrapuffs for you and more D8s than 'puffs.

[oic]

RD:
"Most people who have been in the business for any length of time realise that going from Flybe (or a similar-sized airline) to Easy (or whatever) is just more of the same."

Exactly! more specifically, money! :D

You're right about EZ being as much as a dead-end as FlyBE, but I suppose that's true for any airline, it just depends on what your expectations are. From the EZ terms and conditions, a line trainer with 5 to 10 years service can look forward to about £80.000 a year (including duty pay), which is substantially more than what you get. A much more comfortable position to be stuck in.

[Smokie]

Carlos,

Nice one mate !

RD,

I'm afraid Orange clashes with my matching hand bag & poodle
and definately not my cup of tea either.
As for distrusting the management, why do you think that is then?
WRT the base change there are at least three other guys who were in the same boat.
BTW who said anything about just my contract ?

Ace,

I heard pretty much the same in the last couple of days as well.
As for half the fuel burn, well its only got half the number of engines. :D

The Marketing and Advertising departments have done a sterling job, no doubt about it. Shame that other deprtments haven't followed suit.
I keep looking for the light at the end of the tunnel, perhaps someone should switch it on first .:(

[puddle-jumper]

RD,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Training costs, well, sure there will be training costs when we hire again- but the cost of keeping crews sitting on their tods doing nothing for six months is fairly expensive too'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How much does it cost to train a new recruit on to the 146, if you take the company figures it's somewhere between 15-20 grand isn't it ? 6 months of F/O's salary = £15000 (that's the one's who don't get £20K per year) or Capt's = £25. So on average we don't save a penny but what we do lose is something difficult to buy - Experience.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'However, the fleet acquisition plan stretches until 2005. '
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for that one, I haven't laughed so much in weeks.:D

[Wet Power]

When he says the fleet acquisition plans stretch to 2005 he means five past eight this evening.

[Sensible Garage]

back to the topic please
just confirmed two more BHD one-four-six effo's resigned and are leaving destination Orange (their base will be rotated the next few weeks at random however)

[2 BE or not 2 BE]

When he says the fleet acquisition plans stretch to 2005, I thought he ment 20th of May. I just wasn't sure which year? :D

[Nav Armed]

For FlyBE read CitiExpress.

Just give it time!!:eek:

[Sensible Garage]

quote:
"The way it is supposed to work, is that each Base Captain is invited to attend the Kickstart, and they then cascade the information down to the pilots and cabin crew at their base. It is actually a very 2002 way of doing things, but it relies on managers (ie base captains etc), to cascade the information."

well. to me, it more looks like a very 1950 way of doing things
we have the internet these days, you know, and a proper intranet accessible from home (or the South China Sea internet café) with up to date info is a 2002 way of doing things if you ask me, including rosters and proper 2-way communication

[2 BE or not 2 BE]

Commiserations to all of You CitiExpress guys and girls!

If anybody finds the switch of the tumble dryer down south, don’t hesitate to switch it off!
I order to see light at the end of the tunnel, not only need we switch on the light, but install the damn switch first!
:D :D :D

[Raw Data]

Ace Rimmer

I reckon you blokes at fly BE need to get a grip of a T/P future

I reckon you need to get a grip on reality... haven't laughed so much for years...!!! :cool:

and more D8s than 'puffs.

Wrong...

oic

From the EZ terms and conditions, a line trainer with 5 to 10 years service can look forward to about £80.000 a year (including duty pay), which is substantially more than what you get. A much more comfortable position to be stuck in.

In pure money terms, maybe. I'd miss the variety of all the Cat C places we go though, and I'm not interested in flying my backside off. I prefer to see my wife grow old, and my kids grow up. For me, it isn't primarily about money. I'm quite possibly fairly unusual in that regard.

Also, I was a line trainer within 7 months of joining JEA as it was then- I very much doubt that would happen with Easy, too many people now for that to be likely. If I stay with Flybe, after 8-10 years service I can expect to be a senior IRE/TRE or whatever its called now, not a LTC. The money wouldn't be that different.

Smokie

You didn't actually answer the question (not that I expected you to), but, seriously old chap, you need to leave... you obviously hate it here. I have no idea why you stay (well, perhaps a small idea...)

puddle-jumper

Your reasoning is a stretch... however, there are plenty of experienced people out there who would be more than happy to join us. Don't take my word for it, ask Don how many CVs are currently in the pile. If we don't gain or lose money either way, and the person concerned needs a new type rating, the only experience they bring to the table is general flying experience. Valuable, yes, but there are many others who have that, who are looking for jobs (at the moment).

BTW calculating costs on the basis of salary alone is misleading as it doesn't take into account pensions and other social costs.

Thanks for that one, I haven't laughed so much in weeks.

And of course you have seen the plan... well, pity you weren't at the kickstart... :rolleyes:

Nav Armed

For FlyBE read CitiExpress

More chance of flybe buying Air France than that happening...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[2 BE or not 2 BE]

RD,
I prefer to see my wife grow old
As soon as mine hits 40yrs, I'll trade her in for two 20yr olds:D

[puddle-jumper]

RD,

It's the type experience I was referring to. The amount of recent 146 rated pilots to choose from outside of this company is declining. Don might have allot of C.V.'s from experienced pilots but how many know the 146 well. Encouraging pilots, with years of experience on type, to leave only to replace them with pilots of no type experience in 6 months time for little financial gain doesn't make sense to me. Then again as I was working during the last Kick-butt meeting so I guess I don't have the big picture.:D

[Sensible Garage]

RD, would you be so kind to enlighten us about these far stretching company fleet development plans?

[Nav Armed]

Raw Data!!

I think you misunderstood me.
Mass exodus was my point.:confused:

[Smokie]

Looks like the majority are singing from the same song sheet here, with the very odd exception ! ;)

[Raw Data]

Sensible Garage

well. to me, it more looks like a very 1950 way of doing things we have the internet these days, you know, and a proper intranet accessible from home (or the South China Sea internet café) with up to date info is a 2002 way of doing things if you ask me, including rosters and proper 2-way communication

That only works if everybody has a PC. However, it is exactly what we are working towards, much of this information is already on the Intranet, and the recent NOTAC regarding email addresses should give you a clear hint as to where we are going.

Regardless of all that, Base Captains are intended to be more than amenders of manuals and orderers of fax paper. We are supposed to be managers- it is intended to progressively widen the role of the Base Captain.

Some would argue that the appropriate way of briefing staff is in person. I agree with that, which is why I rode a lot of jumpseats explaining Kickstart to various crews after the meeting.

2 BE or not 2 BE

As soon as mine hits 40yrs, I'll trade her in for two 20yr olds

I tried that, but she has quite a left hook... ;)

puddle-jumper

Encouraging pilots, with years of experience on type, to leave only to replace them with pilots of no type experience in 6 months time for little financial gain doesn't make sense to me.

I hear what you are saying, however most of the pilots who are leaving are relatively new to type (ie a year or so). As in all things, it's a trade-off. I'm not sure there is a simple, 100% correct answer.

Sensible Garage

RD, would you be so kind to enlighten us about these far stretching company fleet development plans?

Happy to, but not on a public forum... :rolleyes:

Nav Armed

I think you misunderstood me. Mass exodus was my point

No, I understood you (more or less). My response caters for both interpretations... :D :D

[Fullback]

Let them leave... let them all leave.

It opens up fantastic opportunities for those like me who want to stay.

I can't think of many places where I could get a jet command in so short a time. RD is spot-on, stay and you progress a whole lot quicker.

At the end of the day I'd rather be a known individual, a name to the management down in EXT rather than a staff number in Heathrow, Castle Donn or Luton.

[Raw Data]

That's actually a very good point- we do have a very fair and equitable culture in the company. One of the weaknesses of the Easy approach to its staff is that it is much more open to abuse.

It is also worth noting that the future plan for the airline does not include rolling over and playing dead while the lo-cos take all our pax.

Strolling through the terminal in EDI last night, I was struck by the way Ezy pax all line up at the gate 20 mins before it opens, all getting ready for the mad dash to get the best seats. I must admit that I have a lot of time for the current BA advertising- I have a feeling that the love affair with no-frills might be starting to wear off- and when it does, we stand to do very well indeed.

[eastern wiseguy]

Raw Data wrote



It is also worth noting that the future plan for the airline does not include rolling over and playing dead while the lo-cos take all our pax.


thought you lot WERE a low cost airline these days ?

[Xenia]

It was a looong time since BE threads did not appear in public forums ... it took me "back" to few years ago now, sad to see things haven't either changed or improved :( Same things ... different years :rolleyes:
Regards to all my ex collegues, who must say, made my time there one of the most enjoyable flying experiences of my life http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/acclaim.gif
Ciao :D

[Ace Rimmer]

Raw Data:
I base my assertion on the following:
FlyBE's announcement that it will base it fleet on D8s and 146's (ie bye bye CRJs) and a conversation with a person who is in a position to influence the course of the company.

Tip off that as mentioned earlier big Jim and co are in discussions with Bomb about trading in the CRJs for more Q400s since confirmed through another source BTW

JE Engineering is pretty focused on being a quadrapuff and D8 centre

According to the latest data I have BE has 12 D8s and 15 puffs if a deal is done on the CRJs then you could assume they'd be getting more Q4s than CRJs lets be reasonable and say five so that's hmmm 17 D8s and 15 puffs and that's assumeming that more D8s over and above are not aquired by lease or purchase

Net result, it appears reasonable does it not to assume therefore that the airline will have more T/Ps than jets in the future and that further for those flying for the airline there will be more T/P slots than jets?

Dosent seem too big a flight of fancy to me...but there you go my reality might be a little different yours.
:D :eek:

[Fullback]

Eastern Wiseguy....

Not true. We've never claimed to be all low cost.

If you read the charter and look at the website you'll see we're aiming for the middle ground. Low fares but service of some sort on all our flights.

[Smokie]

Hmmmmm. service of some sort ! Well yes if you are on an
Air France flight its excellent but then Air France are paying for it.

I hardly think that a cup of tea or coffee qualifies as a "Service" do you ? Seems pretty low cost to me.

Before anyone mentions the "Business pax" well their corporate departments are paying for it also.

Thought the latest strategy was to bin most of the Business fares except for a few choice routes and concentrate on the "Lower fares" for Joe public.

This appears to be doing quite well, now that we've been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st centuary, with the on line web site up and running.

If the D8-400 is to be a success then we really need another C/A to make the cabin more efficient, don't we ?

[oh BEhave]

Well I guess the reason why some of the 146 crews aren’t leaving their 146 is that the 146 is like their Misses.

She antique, slow, a bit short for her width, leaks in different places and making a hell of a noise in the process.
Is tech when you wanna do it, needs lots booze to keep her going and you can’t take her everywhere you want to go to.

But you can’t F*#%*NG leave her!!!:D :D :D

[Raw Data]

Ace Rimmer

FlyBE's announcement that it will base it fleet on D8s and 146's (ie bye bye CRJs) and a conversation with a person who is in a position to influence the course of the company.

Correct (more or less).

Tip off that as mentioned earlier big Jim and co are in discussions with Bomb about trading in the CRJs for more Q400s since confirmed through another source BTW

Incorrect. Not even close.

According to the latest data I have BE has 12 D8s and 15 puffs if a deal is done on the CRJs then you could assume they'd be getting more Q4s than CRJs lets be reasonable and say five so that's hmmm 17 D8s and 15 puffs and that's assumeming that more D8s over and above are not aquired by lease or purchase

No... sorry. That isn't what is happening at all.

Net result, it appears reasonable does it not to assume therefore that the airline will have more T/Ps than jets in the future and that further for those flying for the airline there will be more T/P slots than jets?

That assumption is based on incorrect information, and is wrong.

Dosent seem too big a flight of fancy to me...but there you go my reality might be a little different yours.

Well, the difference there is that my reality is based on the facts, and yours is based on assumptions and second-hand info from dubious sources.

Nice try though... :D

Smokie

What do we provide as "service" that lo-cos don't? Well, for a start they get to select a seat (rather than join the scrum at the gate), they get basic drinks for free (nothing is free on lo-cos), they get access to special passenger handling at no cost (what does Ryanair charge for a wheelchair lift-off..???), they get access to customer service that consists of more than one person reading from their only "service" from a card: "nothing is our fault, you aren't entitled to anything, read the fine print"... etc. We also have lounges for those who want them, the ability to provide free drinks via a voucher, etc.

[Jacksman]

I see Flybe is still being managed in the very same way as ever, -the out of touch,smug down shifters from the far end of the M5 will never make a go of FlyBe and it is time the trustees blew away the whole managment team from cabin services right upto and including the CEO.

[the_tyke]

This whole thread is almost a repeat of the City Express saga that I was reading about in Pprune a few weeks back. But for J41 insert DHC-8 !!!
The two Companies seem to have a lot in common.

[carlos vandango]

except citiexpress get paid 56k plus flt pay for drivin 146s and pencils.

[DIAMOND2000]

RD You seem to have your head buried very deep in a beach on some desrt island!!!

You're saying you'd prefer to get paid 14000 less plus all that sector pay to fly a jurassic jet on short sectors, and get no/very little feedback from management???!!!

Maybe you're just bitter as you "declined an offer of employment from easyJet"???

I may be mad but I'm sure flying a 737 throughout Europe with very few nightstops and much more money is much better for your family and career?

[whisperbrick]

Ohbehave...

What you mean you can't take the puff everywhere..give us 1300m of tarmac,mate.

Makes a hell of alot of noise.............only when the flaps go down !


puddlejumper..
146 rated crews from BMC, one year on about 25 of the 60 odd have jobs so still plenty of ratings to go around...

[oh BEhave]

If me Julie looked like a one four six, I wouldn’t take her to the pub with me!
Which is a bad idea anyway. ;)

Noise? Sorry can’t hear what you’re saying, the flaps just went UP again.
BTW those leaking door seals aren’t helping either. (ask your cabin crew).

[dik dastardly]

Raw Data,
If you're stayin in Flybe, you might want to take your cv off webwings.co.nz. :D :D :D :D

[acm]

RD,

You may thing that FlyBe is a much better place than easyJet. I have been in both(146), and I make £1000 more every month, for 40 sectors/70hrs, 2 nightstop. We're not using any Cat C airport at the moment but ABZ, INV and even LTN are sort of shortfield for the the 737. Nice (NCE) is always an exciting approach to fly. Please, the easy network is not fantastic but don't tell me that the FlyBe network is much better.
I don't want to criticize a former employer here, but I think you're not in position to criticize the working condition of an airline you never fly with. There is lot of details (roster, training, maintenance, 737NG, people, ...) about easyJet you are missing.
In my opinion, FlyBe was not a bad place, but easyjet is better.
Regards

[Smokie]

RD,

Looks like you're gettin longdicked here matey, surely you can't be the only one that's right ?

Oh ! and by the way, we have another one on early release to the big "O" starts end of Jan, handed in their notice a couple of days ago aswell ! Not to mention the Birmingham 7 !!!
( Now where have I heard that before)

Just a thought , I notice none of our newly painted have
"Be.Special " on them yet, can't think why !


Whisperbrick,

You mean to say that you've not had the 1199 privilege yet ?:D


Jacksman,

Like your style mate.


So off 't Pub fur last orders to reflect on all the carnage .....

YES, THERE'S GOING TO BE CARNAGE MATEY !! :eek: :eek:

[perseus]

Oh Behave!

Hey up lad! Lay off me beloved 146. It's a reet good first jet, and as I said on t'previous forum that were scrubbed, it's not about what you fly, it's all about where you fly into. By eck, yon moderator chap needs to lighten up a bit and let folks express themselves. Only time I went to a kickstart meeting, when I was there, the chief pilots size nine imprint was on me backside for weeks afterwards!
Before anyone says anything, I think 0-5 away to Villa was quite acceptable!

[Raw Data]

Jacksman

Well, you may think that going from deep in the crapper to break-even, in a year when many other carriers have either gone to the wall, or at the very least shed a bunch of pilots and aircraft, is bad management. I disagree. The fact is, that if our management were anything less than very good indeed, we would all be unemployed by now. I think you need to get out more.

carlos vandango

Somebody emailed me anonymously and objected to your statement. I have no idea why. Anyway, they claim that "BA CitiExpress pilots don't get any thing like 56k 'for drivin 146's & pencils' without 10 years of service at any rate. Try base jet pay of £49905 + £1 hr flt pay."

So there you go...

DIAMOND2000

You're saying you'd prefer to get paid 14000 less plus all that sector pay to fly a jurassic jet on short sectors, and get no/very little feedback from management???!!!

Actually I get a lot of feedback from management. I guess I have become adept at using a telephone keypad.

Maybe you're just bitter as you "declined an offer of employment from easyJet"???

I think the point you need to take on board, is that I did the declining. And for good reason- at the time, Easy crews were doing a lot of night-stopping and generally working their butts off. No thanks.

How do I know this? I know 7 pilots who work for them. It gives me a good picture.

I may be mad but I'm sure flying a 737 throughout Europe with very few nightstops and much more money is much better for your family and career?

Actually the money is virtually the same, as I have three "extra" jobs with Flybe (ie training and some other stuff). If I went in as an F/O (which apparently you have to now if you have been tainted by the evil 146), I would take a major pay cut. No thanks.

dik dastardly

Gee, you must think you are really clever, however the very fact that it is there should tell you it isn't a secret... doh! :rolleyes: Nice of you to try though, I only hope I can do the same for you one day.

acm

You may thing that FlyBe is a much better place than easyJet

Actually, no, I don't think that at all. I went through the process with them and was offered a job. I declined. It is perfect for some, not for others. I prefer the stability of knowing my base is secure, flying into the fun airports I mentioned, and being involved in training and other "extra-curricular" activities with flybe that I wouldn't have the opportunity to do in Easyjet.


I think you're not in position to criticize the working condition of an airline you never fly with. There is lot of details (roster, training, maintenance, 737NG, people, ...) about easyJet you are missing.

Not really. As mentioned above, I know a few people in Easy and got a pretty clear picture about how the airline works in practice. It's not for me- if you enjoy it, well, great.

I make £1000 more every month, for 40 sectors/70hrs

Fine. My roster has about 50 hours on it this month. Money similar if you factor the duty pay for less hours. Whatever.

[dik dastardly]

Raw Data...gee doesn't take much to rattle your cage. Still at least you're consistent.:rolleyes:

[Smokie]

Ah Carlos ! and I thought the complaint would have been about EZYs New "Large Flight Deck" sim !..... Never mind .

As for drawing straws, well apparently if you can pull off a negatively, vertically, parallel track towards a nav aid of the examiners choice, then you also get another free go at the ILS !

The mind really does boggle though considering the very,very, high quality of candidates that were Royaly Shafted last summer in the "Orange Box" that supposedly represented a "SIM" down at CTC.

I wonder if the EZY management will be sent Xmas prezzies this year ?
Yep ! there's going to be Carnage Matey, and not just at FlyBe.xxxxxx. !!

[Ace Rimmer]

Raw Data:

Well, the difference there is that my reality is based on the facts, and yours is based on assumptions and second-hand info from dubious sources.

As a good journo I can't of course reveal my sources :D

But (and here's the thing) If you are, as your profile suggests a line pilot, then I suspect that my source is better placed to know what's going on in the minds of Fly BE management's than you are. ;)

[Whispering Giant]

Just to add my twopenny's worth,
From what i've heard the plan is to dispose of the CRJ's to a foreign operator, in return for this we will get the last 8 Dash8-400's from the production line at Bombardier and from next year the Dash8-300's and 200's will be diposed off leaving us with a fleet off Dash8-400's (12 in total) and 146's. Yes some of the 146's are being disposed of - but these are all the lightweight a/c and we possible might be gaining a additional 146 to to replace one of the one's that are being disposed off.
Personally i enjoy working at flybe i know off several of my collegues from a previous airline that i worked for who now work for the orange mob and they are regretting it and can't wait to move on from there - So perhap's the grass is not greener on the other side - every airline has it's faults and we are NO different.

[Raw Data]

dik dastardly

I guess you could say I have no time for dik-heads. :rolleyes: :D

Ace Rimmer

then I suspect that my source is better placed to know what's going on in the minds of Fly BE management's than you are

Apart from the fact that I actually talk to said management, and you don't, of course... :rolleyes:

Whispering Giant

Well, that's a bit closer to the truth. Except you have under-estimated the final 146 count...

[Ace Rimmer]

Raw Data
I wouldn't bet on that if I were you

[Whispering Giant]

From the information i've seen - i believe the company are looking at a fleet of between 10-12 146's but this is to be confirmed - so that we would have a equal fleet of 146's and Dash8-400's. But i agree that the company for it's long term development should look at comanly produced a/c type instead of what is being re-ported in one of the magazine's that we are considering the Embraer190-195, nice that these a/c maybe on paper but they will in the long run be more expensive and not as cost effetive as a Boeing or Airbus product...

[Mad-Air]

.....I can offer you a couple of Boeing 737-800 (189 config) CAT3a LVP, A Boeing 767-200 (290 Config) CAT1a.
Oh I'm sorry we're a charter company, I totally forgot FlyBE don't do those do they........?! - CMF/SZG etc, etc.
Hey take your pick Guys!;)
What ever the company does as it's main bread & butter, you'll ALWAYS get someone who isn't happy. If it's not roster stability, it's who's sitting next to them!
I would have thought that RD would have a more information than most as he is on the Employee Forum (aren't you?). FlyBE would be great if there weren't so many Empire builders and if EVERYONE sang from the same hymn sheet!
"You can please some of the people some of the time, but never all the people all of the time!"
.....Mind you I left over two years ago! :D :D

[Whispering Giant]

If you beleive the rumour's that keep being bounded around - we're supposed to be buying you out anyway !!!!!

[MOR]

Ace- you journos just never give up, do you...

Ole RD does have the ear of more than one director, I would trust him years before I would trust your second-hand hearsay, which I doubt very much comes from a sourcer any higher than a disgruntled BHD F/O. :D :D :D

As for dik dastardly, how low can you get... what a to@@er.

One thing I will say for RD, he went out of his way to sit on our (very uncomfortable) jumpseat and brief us on Kickstart the day after it happened. I wish more people in the company were as quick to pass on information.

[Smokie]

Apparently he's left now.:D

[Mad-Air]

...I'd like to know how you're buying us when we've floated on the AIMS Stock exchange, and yet you havn't had a payrise for two years, is it now?!:D
Good luck with ya flying course!!

[snooze_ya_lose]

You sad prat...

The mind really does boggle though considering the very,very, high quality of candidates that were Royaly Shafted last summer in the "Orange Box" that supposedly represented a "SIM" down at CTC.

These would be your two BHD mates that turned up still p1ssed from the night before... oh yes, very high quality candidates...

I take it you failed the Easyjet fun day then.

:rolleyes:

[Smokie]

Snooze,

I think that you're barking up the wrong tree mate, as I've said previously they're not my cup of tea.
As somebody else has also said, wild horses wouldn't drag me away either.

As for your other statement, well thats a pretty bold allegation.

[Raw Data]

OK well this is obviously going to degenerate from this point on. In that case, I'll bow out now as I don't really see what else there is to say- except for this.

If any flybe staff need info on what the company is doing, there are a few options.

Every employee at EXT (as well as key people at outstations) has an email address. It is always in the format [email protected]

There is the telephone.

There is the company intranet, where key points of news (including the recent Kickstart) are available for all staff to view.

There is the Open Channel site (www.beopenchannel.com)

There is your local manager- if at an outstation, that would be the Base Engineer, Base Captain or Base CA. The Base Engineers and Base Captains attend Kickstart.

There are Open Channel reps in (or near) each base.

There are (or should be) minutes of Open Channel meetings available in crew rooms.

What else do you need?

Bear in mind that, as the company is rapidly changing at the moment, you may not always get the info you need, particularly if it is commercially sensitive (this also applies to fleet planning).

For non-employees- keep fishin'... :D :D :D

[DIAMOND2000]

RD - It seems you are very loyal to flybe and know what's going on. Why don't you apply for a management position?

It seems the management changed the name of the airline as a last ditched attempt at keeping it afloat. Maybe it has worked or maybe not, we'll see. At least you stick to your guns. However I do still think Flybe is not the best airline to work for, from what I have heard. Maybe some people have a drive to further their career. Why not cut some slack!!!!!

[perseus]

Snooze ya lose.

Shame you had to resort to such offensive language on an open forum. It gives such a bad impression young man. Or is it an indication of the type of recruit your airline is looking for? Not a good advert for those who may think the future is "orange"!

[Smokie]

Craciun fericit si un an nou fericit.

And for those of you who think I'm from the other place,

Nollaig faoi shean agus faoi shonas duit agus bliain nua faoi mhaise.

Thats me bowing out also, have a good one.:D

[Raw Data]

Oh alright, one more then...

DIAMOND2000

Why don't you apply for a management position?

Cos I like flying!

It seems the management changed the name of the airline as a last ditched attempt at keeping it afloat. Maybe it has worked or maybe not, we'll see.

Of course. They had to. The world has changed, partly due to lo-cos and partly due to Muslim fundamentalists. You either adapt or die. There is no longer the traditional business there once was, and we- like BMI (baby), like KLMuk (buzz), like MyTravel (lite), like BA itself (Go)- had to re-invent ourselves. Whether the pendulum will swing the other way remains to be seen- I suspect it will for the reasons already given.

At least you stick to your guns. However I do still think Flybe is not the best airline to work for, from what I have heard. Maybe some people have a drive to further their career. Why not cut some slack!!!!!

You haven't been listening. I have already said that we suit some people, Easy et al suit others. The things we offer, Easy doesn't. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Easy (as with most airlines), but they do have their weaknesses and blind spots. They are certainly not the cure for all ills that some think. The best airline to work for is the one that pays you a fortune, gives you 20 days off a month, and never calls you out when on standby. If you find such an airline, please let me know the phone number.

You pays your money...

[perseus]

Smokie.

By eck lad! your spelling is poor. Can't make ed nor tail of it!