BA towing mishap

[southern duel]

BA have damaged G BNLE B747 400 in a towing incident at LHR on Friday afternoon. Mind you they may have tried to hush it up because the airport authority were not told until 3 hours after the event !!

A B777 was stopped at the Eastchurch crossing waiting for the gates to open on its way to the base when LE which was towing behind it failed to stop.

The nose went straight through APU of the B777.

The aircrafts a mess with a massive hole from the nose cone up to the cockpit window.and reports are that cost of repair is 2 1/2 million quid . Apparantly it punctured the bulk head because the 1st class cabin is not as it should be.



An expensive mistake


:mad:

[stormin norman]

The towbarless tug appears to have had yet another brake failure
Was the cockpit brake man in the 747 awake?
Was there pressure in the Nbr 4 system?
Was the brakeman a skilled engineer or another 'approved person'with 5 minutes training.
I'm sure the insurance company will sort it out.any pictures?

[SMOC]

Probably no APU running to save money and why start it to pressurize the the Accumulator (it'll be all right), I can think of two other instances where the tow bar broke and this sort of thing happened.

Poor man in the cockpit was trying to start the APU in a hurry I bet. :eek:

[gas path]

Just one small point, TBL (towbarless) tractors do not have anybody in the flt. deck.

[gordonroxburgh]

If it happend at the crossing, the CCTV must have caught it in all its glory...and the aftermath

Now that would be one for the "You've been framed" TV show:D

[Sensible Garage]

towbarless tractors do require a (wo)man in the cockpit
the brakes must be set during the 'pickup' and during the parking after the tow
kind of weird if he gets out the seat during the pull

[mainecoon]

were th aaib informed more to the point if not that is an offence and 939 and nasty stuff follows

[Le Pen]

Got to agree with Gaspath on this one...

The BA ATP dosent require any one on board when using a Towbarless tug... That after all is why they use it to save on manpower costs.

As long as the A/C is chocked its ok.

Will double check and confirm tomorrow.

LP

[ExSimGuy]

or perhaps nobody on the tug or the 747 noticed a tiny 777 stopped in front of them ;)

Oooops!

[Jet II]

BA do NOT require anyone on the flightdeck when being towed by Towbarless tractors.

Generally the a/c are parked with the brakes off and chocked so that the tuggies can pick-up and move it at any time.

As for the AAIB or the delay in informing the BAA, if the accident happened in a BA maintenance area then there is no real need to involve either.

[Sensible Garage]

worked a while at Schiphol with KLM's aircraft towing dept
they did require a brake driver at the helm upstairs, also to put the beacon on once moving, surprised BA doesn't

[Squealing Pig]

mainecoon & JetII

Dont think the AAIB need be involved in this.

Extract from the regualations in the AAIB web site :-

"accident" means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked.

Tea & biccies for someone !

SP

[kriskross]

Seem to remember that when BA started this towbarless tugging at LGW, not only did they not have anyone on the flight deck, but at night there was no requirement to have lights on the towed aircraft, relying on the tugs revolving yellows to notify anyone else of the combination.

In the dark, coming up behind, it was very difficult to see. Don't know if this still happens.

[sharpshot]

Sonds like the ANO is being breached then:confused:

[Goforfun]

Perhaps it was done out of spite?

Yes AAIB will be involved.

[Panman]

Yes but then which organisation regulates matters relating to the ANO?

And which organisation thus will not want to upset it's biggest paying customer?

krisskross: I don't know about now, but up until end of November last year when I was still with VS, BA were still towing aircraft around LHR with no beacons on save for the one on the tug.

[Hand Solo]

Well they're not now. Beacons on and nav lights at night now.

[Notso Fantastic]

Panman, don't beacons signify 'engines running', not just aircraft moving (by whatever means)?

[dundoniandean]

Enough guff - where's the photos??

[spanners]

Actually No the ANO was not being breached because the tugs were exempt having more flashy lights (if you pardon the pun), to make up for the nav lights off. Agree with the others, BA didnt use anyone in the flight deck so had to ensure the a/c was chocked prior to and after towing with park brake left off. Sounded dodgy and didnt agree with it, but told to do it nevertheless
Cheers

[spannersatcx]

Notso Fantastic - no, most airport regulations state that whenever an aircraft is under tow then it should have wing tip navs on and beacon lights on.

[pushapproved]

With reference to display of Nav lights on towing aircraft, at LGW a year or so ago there was a trial period where the CAA allowed an exemption to display Nav lights with the TBL Tugs having the extra 'flashy lights'. The trial period was not extended so Nav lights/beacons have to be displayed or officially the towing movement is not allowed to take place. Although theoretically in ATC we should be able to separate the aircraft without the need of Nav lights & I assume this rule is for night, I doubt we'd notice the lights in daytime anyway!

[red 7]

seem to remember ba tugs have flashing beacon and nav lights so r covered in all aspects when towing????
no rear white so tricky to spot in dark ramp areas???

[HZ123]

Anti-col lights were illuminated by direction of BAA (HAL) last year as other pilots had complained that in poor visibility towing a/c could not be seen nor could there progress be asessed. When the tow barless tractors arrived they were not fitted with flashing beacons nor did they have units to power the a/c behind them. Rumour has it that both a/c will be hangared for 8 weeks plus.

[nomdeplume]

I'm sorry to ask what's probably a silly question, but could one of you explain how a towbarless tug operates. I have visions of a 747 being towed along on the end of a rope, but that seems unlikely. :) :confused:

[ETOPS]

The vehicle has a hydraulic ramp which clamps the nose gear and then lifts it clear of the ground. Thus the aircraft can be towed with the tractor locked to the nose and able to push/pull and steer.

[J-Class]

Will there be any likely effect on BA flight ops from having a 747 and a 777 unexpectedly out of service for 8 weeks?

[maninblack]

The trial of single operator towing was carried out at Heathrow late at night some time around July or August 1998. The tractor units were fitted with folding arms each mounted with a strobe unit of something like 4000 cd each which were filtered aviation red and aviation green. These were set so that they would shine up and illuminate the two sides of the aircraft with a pool of high intensity light in an approved colour and so ensure that the aircraft could be easily seen and recognised from all angles without the on board nav/anti-collision lights.

As for the comment about not being able to see the aircraft from behind, at the time of the trial someone to the rear of the aircraft would have been facing a combined flash power of 7-8,000 cd, which is in the region of 18 times more powerful than a standard red strobe.

What happened after this I don't know as I changed jobs shortly after and lost touch with the project.

[Notso Fantastic]

J-Class, the 747 is not currently 'in favour' in BA. The airline has been aching to sell at least 5 of the 57 strong fleet with no success. S/H values are a disaster. However, seating 409 in standard configuration, it is an effective people/long range mover, and is certainly being utilised heavily on Far East routes with fantastic load factors........BUT, a lot of this is to do with Aylings decision a few years ago to chase the premium market and upgrade premium seating (reducing total capacity) at a time when that market reduced significantly. The costs to go back are prohibitive. The 777 will be missed most as its seat mile costs are better and it seems to be the flavour of the day, but its capacity is significantly less.

A Golden rule was broken- never collide with your own aeroplanes. It takes 2 out of service- much better to hit someonelses! It's quite stunning the battering airliners seem to take. Bashing from service vehicles is a daily occurence, 'hangar rash' is far too common, but the cavalier treatment by ground services teams in operations like this is astonishing (it would not have been the Engineering Department moving the planes). I've had our freight door closed onto the loading vehicle, presumably the operator was studying his nails whilst being very 'cavalier' closing up!One incident springs to mind in which a Classic 747 was pushed back at night at LHR and hit another aeroplane. Unnoticed in the dark, it flew to Nairobi where the damage to the elevators was discovered on a ground inspection in the dawn's light! Far too much of this sort of thing happens. The Turkish/AA DC10 freight door crashes showed astonishing stupidity by loaders who mishandled freight door closing operations, the AA DC10 engine separation crash (ORD) was 'rough' treatment of engine change procedures- it's unbelievable when you read about it, but if you're not flying on that aeroplane, it doesn't seem to matter so much! Some 600+ dead in those 3 incidents alone.
(Helmets on! Incoming!!)

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Can anyone tell me how you can make the various lights go bright, when moving a/c during maint, ie out of hangar and back again. This is when you swap a/c about, with no Battery or APU.
Have been involved in this many a time.

[Roobarb]

I remember at the time many professionals queried the sense of towing aircraft without a brakeman in the flightdeck and no lights on. The now familiar reactionary response was to press on regardless of the concerns of the operational community. How they imagined the loss of a small number of extra mechanics would save the company a large amount of money can only be explained by their miserable performance elsewhere.

Once again, Aylings legacy, which is already costing us £45,800 per hour in interest on his debts, has returned to haunt us.

It's always the same. Some regular cleverdick with a degree in underwater basketweaving 'saves' the company twopence and costs us a million.

Oh despair!

http://www.sausagenet.freeserve.co.uk/roobarb/roohorn.gif
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

[Taildragger67]

Yeah but the Asiana 744 vs. IL-62 at ANC wasn't the groundies' fault!! Then again, there was the SV 743 vs. the ditch at KUL...

(Sorry but they are such crackers of stories, thought I'd bring them up. Anyone know where the photos are these days??)

Thanks
TD67

[Sensible Garage]

Mr @ Spotty M,

you can make the various lights go on whlie towing an 747, with no Battery or APU, by using a proper tug (TBL or not) with a running GPU, hook up the pwr cable and switch the bits and bobs on above the capyains seat and there you go, see and be seen

PS, might need the battery on actually to be able to switch pwr to external, can't remember{

[The Controlller]

To quote the tug driver "The brakes failed" but after a full inspection they were perfect. NLE out till 31st Jan 03 and IIF out for a couple of weeks....not good.
Waiting to hear what will happen to the driver...possibily management?

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Roobarb: Would that be "Bob's" £260,000 p.a. pension plus £2m "Golden Cheerio" that's getting you so glum? I see the cheekie wee chappie's fixed himself up with a £50,000 p.a. for one day a week renting out caravans, or something. All this PLUS his seat on the board of Royal & Sun Alliance. My my.

[Touch'n'oops]

Well here's the KL F-up!

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=194762&WxsIERv=Qm9laW5nIDc0Ny0zNjg%3D&WdsYXMg=U2F1ZGkgQXJhYmlhbiBBaXJsaW5lcw%3D%3D&QtODMg=S3VhbGEgTHVtcHVyIC0gSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbCAoU2VwYW5nKSAoS 1VMIC8gV01LSyk%3D&ERDLTkt=TWFsYXlzaWE%3D&ktODMp=QXVndXN0IDI0LCAyMDAx&WNEb25u=UmF5eWFuIEFMU2FtYWRhbmk%3D&xsIERvdWdsY=SFotQUlP&MgTUQtODMgKE=&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=MzAyNA%3D%3D&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwMS0xMC0xMw%3D%3D&static=yes

Enjoy the laughter! But, spare a thought for the donkey who did it!!!!!!:D :D :D :D

[JEP]

Now I know, why first item in "Taxi Checks" on our Cessna 150 is "Test Brakes".

When any of the students ask that - this incident will supply the answer needed.

Glad nobody was hurt.

[Taildragger67]

Thanks Touch.

Found the ANC shots:

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/asiana-anc/1.shtml

Love the way they got to t/o power (blowing out windows in the terminal) before they realised something was up!!!

[TwinAisle]

Got to take issue with Notso Fantastic for one of his comments....

I quote:
"The Turkish/AA DC10 freight door crashes showed astonishing stupidity by loaders who mishandled freight door closing operations...."

I trained as an engineer with BAe, and I always had it drummed into me that, as an engineer working in a nice air conditioned office, I had to think ahead for the days when someone would use the bit of kit in the field - and a wet, dark, windy field at that.

The fault with the DC10 aft cargo door was one of design. The Law of Sod says that, if it could be mislatched, one day it would be. In the Paris case it was one Mohammed Mahmoudi who was the unfortunate individual, who locked the door according to what he had been taught. The guilty party was the person who designed a door that could appear to be locked (warning lights out, vent door closed etc) when in fact it was not - leading to the deaths of 346 people.

Don't blame the baggage handler - blame the people who designed such a non-failsafe door latch.

TA

[Koja]

For some reason the short cut for the ANC shots is not working. May want to try this one:

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/asiana-anc/photo.shtml

Hope this one works.

[Notso Fantastic]

TwinAisle_ I remember the investigation into the freight door accidents drew out that the loaders, unable to stow the door handle, were 'putting their knee' to it to force it home to close up. You can't do this with aluminium aeroplanes. I think it fair to say if the loaders were going to travel on that aeroplane, I don't think they would have used such brute force when something is obviously jamming in the mechanism.

[Departures Beckham]

Our barless tugs have the usual orange ACB on the roof together with a red one, is the red one related to towing without acft beacons on?

[TwinAisle]

NSF - you are right, the baggage handlers were noted to be using brute force to close the DC10 cargo door. HOWEVER - the whole point was that when they did this, the door appeared to be safe - the vent door closed and the warning lights went out.

A well designed door may still have yielded to brute force, but SHOULD NEVER yield in such a way that it indicated it was safe when it was not. That was the bad design.

As I said - blame the designer for a bad door, not a baggage handler for screwing up when using a badly designed door....

TA

[Notso Fantastic]

Yes, but this is leading to a side issue. My main point is careless operation of expensive equipment by the handlers concerned! Agreed the design was not as good as it could have been, but couple that with brute force and insensitive handling, then you are going to get aeroplanes towed into other aeroplanes!

[Plastique]

Any photos of the BA incident???

[blueloo]

JUST WANTED TO BRING IT TO THE TOP AGAIN !!!! - ANYONE GOT THEIR HANDS ON SOME PHOTOS YET ?

:D :D :D :D

[Jet II]

I was told yesterday that senior mismanagement had banned all pictures because after last weeks incident with the Rocket they don't want any more bad publicity in The Sun and other papers.

[ratarsedagain]

JAS,
You make it sound like 'big expensive mistakes' are ok.
I'm sure the BA management are delighted to have two longhaul aircraft out of service for weeks on end, but hey, it was a mistake, and yeah, a bit expensive, but that's ok! Get real. I'm sure they've got better things to spend £12m plus on than repairing aeroplanes bent by ground crew.
And as for blaming Easyjet or Ryanair, grow up.