Missile fired at Israeli charter aircraft

[Bus429]

Haaretz (http://www.haaretzdaily.com)

[mikegreatrex]

Two missiles fired, both missed.....military or civil, an IR missile up the pipe, this must be the worst nightmare. Soon be carrying chaff and flares!!

[Airtoday]

Two missiles fired at the Isreali aircraft and a bomb exploded at the hotel used by their crew according to Sky News. They also report that El Al have cacelled all international flights.

[ghost-rider]

According to the latest news, the a/c is continuing to Israel.

The point about chaff and flares may be a good one. How do you drivers ( without any military background ) feel about being suitably equipped ?

Just what the industry needs right now !

[Mister Geezer]

Sounds like it is an Arkia 757-300. 260 pax on board so just a handful of free seats. Maybe the power of those RB211s was underestimated by the idiot who was firing the missile? ;)

MG

[parajump]

IF and right now it's a big IF the reports of this Attack! are correct were does this leave the industry?

There have been reports like this in the past but given the bombing at the hotel and the reports coming out of Israel I suppose we can give this story some more weight.

Jezz what next

[Mister Geezer]

Well it seems bona fide. Arkia have had a spokesman who has confirmed that the aircraft was fired upon. Hopefully when the aircraft lands, in just over an hour, then we might be able to get more info!

[Flypuppy]

There was a thread on PPRuNe in the last few days about attacks by man portable missiles. Coincidence? I certainly hope so.

Am I looking at this too deeply or should we be more wary of subjects that are discussed in open forums?

[DamienB]

People have been firing missiles at airliners for years, this wasn't kicked off by a pprune thread!

However, I am willing to start 'Naked women in fields on final approach - and how to knock down an airliner with them' thread if you think it would be a worthwhile experiment.

[Buster Hyman]

Reading between the lines, I get the impression this was an RPG attack, rather than missiles.

Reports that I've heard say it was just after take-off, you don't need the target that low for a missile. Also, they are now saying that the terrorists could have come across from Somalia, where RPG's are plentifull. I doubt that you could fire shoulder launched SAM's at such an undefended target and miss. Not the type of work usually associated with this crowd.

Thank god it did miss though.:(

[jungly]

But it does depend on the aspect of the shot. Even something crap like the SA7A, which is widely available, is unlikely to miss from a 6 o'clock shot. If fired from fwd of 9 o'clock it has a very low chance.... similarly Stinger1 and we all know the USA provided hundreds of those to the Taliban years ago.

A more sophisticated shoulder launched missle, Stinger2 or SA18...well, even the best flare programs have trouble stopping the kill.

The Washington Times (26Nov02) is reporting Al Queda arrests in Saudi for the recent SA7 attempted shoot down of an American Jet. In the same edition is an article detailing US Govt rumours of SA7 and Stinger SAMs being smuggled into the US.

www.washtimes.com/world/20020619-71518182.htm
www.washtimes.com/national/20020531-888741.htm

Interestingly these links, which worked yesterday, is no-longer avail. Maybe someone else will have more luck.




"Its a riddle wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma"

[Few Cloudy]

As mentioned by Damien above, this isn't by any means the first missile vs airliner attack.

It has been taken seriously for a long time by, for instance the Saudi Royal family, who had ECM on their SP Jumbo years back, already.

The rest of the industry needs to wake up and realise that we are very much at war - just as in the old sailing clipper days, where civilian ships had to be armed.

It's getting on for open season again and with the money and weapons available to these goons - and the spotter positions (even with a mobile restaurant at ZRH - 3/4Mile final) - it is just a matter of time.

[Torquelink]

Once saw a photo of a Skyvan in Angola which landed with a SAM7 round jammed in the No 1 engine tailpipe. The Gods were smiling on crew and pax that day.

[rsoman]

Here is a similar incident on an Air India

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=779&highlight=India

And before some one points out the obvious, yes I posted the original thread as I picked it up in the Indian media at that time.
Interesting that both the flights orginated in Kenya

[Avman]

You're going to be popular with the spotters FEW CLOUDY !! They have to put up with enough kneejerk total nonsense in the name of security as it is. Let's be honest, with the right weapon (and Bin Liner's lot can afford them) they don't need to be anywhere near the airport perimeter. Five miles out will do fine. How do you plan to organise effective security for say a radius of 20 miles around all of the worlds' airports without increasing the price of flying by about 1000%?

In fact, come to think of it, spotters are probably the cheapest and most effective security you can have around an airport. They will soon notice anything suspicious going on. What airport managements need to do is encourage local spotters and give them a special telephone number to call as soon as they observe any suspicious activity. Now that would make a lot more sense to me.

[Bubbette]

Aren't all El Al flights international? I think this has happened before, in any case.

[Mister Geezer]

El Al seem to be back to normal ops. Referring to Bubbette's point, you are right about all El Al flight being International.

[PaperTiger]

Flypuppy the missile thread here was in response to an article published elsewhere on the web, and repeated on Usenet.
That article itself was about US intelligence warnings to airlines re: missiles. It's possible that they had picked up a whiff about this attack, but simple coincidence is most likely IMO.

BBC now reports missile casings found and two suspects apprehended.

[RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo]

Very disturbing news, but entirely predictable. Its a case of when not if. This could be the death of inner city airports. I can name many many citys where you could pick em off with a heavy machine gun as they float majesticaly over 10 miles of suburban gardens.

I know that this may not be a popular thought but has anybody found out what these b@stards want? if its no meat on fridays or something stupid maybe we should pay up and they would allow us to get on with our lives because just like 11/9 when its been done once you we will never be able to travel in peace of mind again and another 10,000 airmen will be out of a job.

[Smoketoomuch]

C4 news showed pics of 2 discarded launchers found near scene. Commentary said SA-7 but looked more modern to my untrained eye. Certainly not the 'classic' RPG type launcher anyway.

[Raw Data]

What do they want? They want you to be dead, unless of course you are a Muslim.

They are indescriminate, amoral killers and believe me, you wouldn't want to pay the price they are asking. They don't want to negotiate, they want to kill.

You pander to terrorists, all you get is more terror. The Taliban would have us all back in the Stone Age if they could, and that includes no aircraft.

Hunt them all down.

[USAedinburgh]

RTFI

I hate to digress in a political direction on this forum, but you cant be serious. What do they want ? To eradicate our (the west or all non muslims) way of life. There is nothing we can do which will satisfy them and make them stop, thats the whole point. These are not rational acts designed to elicit a course of action or result or remedy some injustice. They seek to destroy us, period. Even if there was something that they wanted which we could deliver, is that (Appeasement) really the way to go ? Ask Mr Chamberlin.
If some mad man with a cause has put a bullet in your childrens brain would your first reaction be to think " gee, I wonder what he wants, how can I placate him ?) If so, you are a disturbed person. Al Qaeda, et al could'nt care less about Palestinians etc, if so why they or any other Muslim group not take action againts the greatest injustice and slaughter of Muslims in recent history (Bosnia) ? It was only the bombing of the Serbs by the hated Americans which put an end to it. Think again my friend.

[a pilot]

MEDIA JUST REPORTED,2 HEAT SEEKING SOVIET MADE OLDER MISSILES WITH A RANGE OF 4-6 KM,CONTAINERS FOUND,STRELLA OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT...

[RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo]

USAedin....... if we are to be rational about your kill em all rant I'd have to point out that the west have been dropping 1000lb bombs on and shooting "non pink" people's children for years, maybe thats "why they hate us"........ however I visited vietnam last year and a friendlier bunch you could not have meet.

But getting back to aviation if i was planning flight paths into or out of LHR, and I only use that as an example because I know it well and because the IRA lobbed a few mortas onto the field a few years back, nervous would not cover it.

Are their any viable paths to Heathrow that do not fly over either central london or Aldermaston? If not the nimby's may just get their way.

[USAedinburgh]

RTFI

Last word on this from me cause its non aviation, but perhaps you could remind me just what injustice the AUS gvt inflicted upon muslims which caused so many of your countrymen to be slaughtered in Bali ? And when did I say bomb them all. My only point is there is not logic to a terrorists actions and no way to placate or prevent their actions by adjusting ones foreign policy etc. You missed the point as most liberals do.

[Rat Catcher]

One possible reason for the miss is an apparent runway change due to calm winds. A/c took off to the north instead of to the south where these characters would have been right under the flight path, a possible quick fire towards an accelerating target getting smaller??
Luck smiled on the aircraft, shame about the hotel!:(

[Tarek Nor]

Well said Avman. :)

Few Cloudy :rolleyes:


If you think about it, even a little bit, the
spotters at the end of the runway, on the
perimeter, on the carparks, in the terminal
or wherever are probably the best chance
thats left. :cool:

[ETOPS]

Just seen the photo's of the discarded launcher - clearly an SA-7 Strella 2 (NATO Code "Grail" ).
This is a man portable, shoulder launched heat seeking missile with a range of 3.6km. It was produced in very large numbers for the Soviet bloc and it is not suprising that terrorists have got hold of some.
Even more interesting is that two were fired - somebody had done their homework.
I'm worried that only operator incompetence saved this from being a kill..........

[Rollingthunder]

Yes very worrying. Reports are that the shooters were 2 km from the runway and a pax estimated they were only at 100 ft when he saw the trails.

(Adjust for media and pax perceptions).

"The SA-7 was the first generation of Soviet man portable surface-to-air missiles. Although classed as "fire and forget" types, the missiles were easily overcome by solar heat and, when used in hilly terrain, by heat from the ground.

The SA-7 seeker is fitted with a filter to reduce the effectiveness of decoying flares and to block IR emissions. The system consists of the missile (9K32 & 9K32M), a reloadable gripstock (9P54 & 9P54M), and a thermal battery (9B17). An identification friend or foe (IFF) system can be fitted to the operators helmet. Further, a
supplementary early warning system consisting of a passive RF antenna and headphones can be used to provide early cue about the approach and rough direction of an enemy aircraft. Although the SA-7 is limited in range, speed, and altitude, it forces enemy pilots to fly above minimum radar limitations which results in detection and vulnerability to regimental and divisional air defense systems."

[Selandia Baru]

USAedin and RTFI. It aint "no meat on Fridays" that will help. Anybody with half a brain can figure out, if you watch other than CNN, that all they want is quite simply that Americans get out of the Palestinian Israel territory conflict. Its got nothing to do with they want to kill us all, USAedin you should be ashamed of your ignorance. Australians unfortunatly got bombed in Bali because of their public support of the US..

[Idunno]

Ever heard of Hizb Ut-Tahrir?
They're one of the worlds larger Muslim movements.

Here's a link to their website: Hizb Ut-Tahrir (http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/)

Here's a quote from the website:

The Aim of Hizb ut-Tahrir

Its aim is to resume the Islamic way of life and to convey the Islamic da’wah to the world. This objective means bringing the Muslims back to living an Islamic way of life in Dar al-Islam and in an Islamic society such that all of life’s affairs in society are administered according to the Shari’ah rules, and the viewpoint in it is the halal and the haram under the shade of the Islamic State, which is the Khilafah State. ......

It also strives to bring her [Islam] back to her previous might and glory such that she wrests the reins of initiative away from other states and nations, and returns to her rightful place as the first state in the world, as she was in the past, when she governs the world according to the laws of Islam.

It also aims to bring back the Islamic guidance for mankind and to lead the Ummah into a struggle with Kufr, its systems and its thoughts so that Islam encapsulates the world.

So now you know what they want.

Israel is just the start of it.

[Bubbette]

I think it's bigger than that SB--Israel is known as the Little Satan--but it's the US who is the big Satan. Starting with the fact that US troops are stationed in the holy land of Saudi Arabia and following through to the US' cherished values of freedom and liberty. . . .including freedom to live a debauched life according to Wahabi Islam.

[MOR]

Actually, Selandia Baru , it is you who is displaying gross ignorance.

The extreme muslim position against the West (principally the "Great Satan", America), has less to do with the Palestinian issue than it does with the whole history of the region, going back to World War 2, the Shah, etc., the division of the Middle East by Western powers.

If you had even bothered to watch CNN, you would have seen a procession of Muslim clerics vowing death to all Americans and their supporters. In the UK, this message seems to be preached regularly in mosques.

It's a lot more complicated than just Israel- but even if it wasn't, if the US stopped supporting Israel, that country (and every single one of its inhabitants) would cease to exist. There would be no mercy whatsoever.

RTFIs rant is similarly simplistic. There is virtually no correlation between Vietnam and the current Middle East conflict.

What most folk don't seem to realise, is that it ain't going to get better, given the dedication of the terrorists (fighting a "holy war") to killing anyone who is connected with America-9/11 being a good example of their indescriminate killing (how many muslims do you think died in the WTC? My guess is, a lot).

[Danny]

The political discussion can go to Jet Blast. Please keep this thread open to the facts of the attack.

[Selandia Baru]

This recent missile attack is a clear indication that this sort of appalling warfare is going to continue and it will remain lose lose for both sides. My ignorance is not only a result of reading News papers and watching CNN. I am a western, Christian, european who has, in the past, lived and worked (aviation business) with palestinians in their (or what is left of it) country. A foriegn policy change in the west is what is needed. I am neither sympathetic to Middle Eastern People nor American people I just wish that the problems could be sorted out.

[RatherBeFlying]

SA-7s claimed a number of a/c at Kabul and it seems there's lots more out there in the wrong hands.

It will likely take some time for the bad guys to figure out how to carry out an effective attack and beat counter-measures -- Cattletruck lets not be giving out hints and explanations to help them do it better:eek: next time 'round.

If Danny will indulge this political comment, ensuring that Palestinians have a fair shake at dignity and economic opportunity might just get the temperature down and take the wind out of the sails of bin Laden etc.

Unless/until that happens we'd better get really sharp and proactive at staying at least one step ahead of this nasty.

[PaperTiger]

lets not be giving out hints and explanations to help them do it better next time 'round

Quite. Unfortunately the media accounts contain enough to indicate why they missed. I don't watch CNN but I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already had 'experts' on explaining the workings of a Grail in detail. Probably on Al-Jazeera too :mad:

[Wino]

These missles are designed to strike tactical aircraft.
IF its going fast it most likely has an After burner, great big heat bloom. Even if it isn't in burner, it won't be much of a bypass engine, so again great big heat bloom....

If its going slow, its probably a helicopter and going very slow.

A 757 has high bypass turbofans and doesn't put out a lot of heat as a result. So unless you are EXACTLY at 6 oclock and looking directly up the tail pipe of the engine at the turbine wheels, you won't have that great a heat signiture to lock onto.

That applies to older missles. Newer ones would have much less problems.



Cheers
Wino

[Wiley]

Unfortunately, I think it would be a safe bet to say that CNN will, over the next few days, give us chapter and verse, with vivid computer graphics and their resident military "expert's" opinions included, on how missileers got it wrong and what they should have done to get it right, (which, cattletruck, any military pilot with even a passing training in SAMs and how to avoidthem could figure out in about two minutes - but please, Wino and anyone else out there, let's not advertise it here.)

What's even more unfortunate is that you can be sure the next ASU (or whatever al Qaeda call their ASUs), will be far better briefed.

And in closing - let's not blame 'the Muslims'. The vast majority of Muslims will be just as horrified at what these clowns are up to as we are. These people are just the modern day equivalent of the the Baader Meinhof Gang and the Red Army Faction. They're using religion today as their smokescreen just as BM and the RAF used Communism as theirs. If you want to make the argument a simplistic one, (which it isn't), you can call it penis envy. Put very simply, they're nothing more than than little men with little dicks who, just as in the 70's with the last crop of anti-Western terrorists, look a bit glamorous to some misguided individuals. In this case, most of the misled are young (and not so young) Muslims.

But let's not forget how many 'educated' Westerners sympathised with the BM and RAF backin the 70's.

[Ignition Override]

Thank God they survived. Don't forget the previous supply of missiles in Yugoslavia. One downed an Italian, twin-engine turboprop (Aeritalia G-222?) with fairly small engines. Those folks also fired one at the large US Marine helo as it flew a downed F-16 pilot back towards the coast. Let's don't forget the civilian C-130s somewhere in Africa, and several planes shot down somewhere in the Pacific Rim by rebels, whose crews often tried dangerous short-cuts in routing (read about an Antonov crew there from the Ukraine). This was covered in either "Airways" or "Airliner" magazine several months ago.

Good point up there by someone about how much dangerous info is often revealed by the media. The media also described 'geographic profiling', regarding the murderers in Virginia/Maryland. I had seen it only once before that terror streak began.

People who train their children to be martyrs and who also live to murder civilians can make no claims to be moral, humane nor religious. Without conflicts, warlords lose their jobs and followers, and control over others' lives. This is true all over this miserable world, no matter what type of self-righteousness and superiority is promoted.

[Dave T-S]

The Daily Mail carried what looked like a retouched photo of the Arkia 757 this morning, with two superimposed artists impressioned terrorists with SA-7 launchers added to the photo, but also interestingly had superimposed both chaff and flares under the rear of the plane.....artistic licence, or do they know something?

Re spotters keeping an eye out for suspicious people, it has amused me for years that our clay pigeon shooting club is directly under the final approach for EGSS R023 approx 2 miles from the threshhold - rest assured if anyone suspicious is lurking around in the woods here they won't be for long;)

At least we don't get many noise complaints;)

As a footnote, since you never know who is reading this, I would add that no guns are EVER left on the premises......

[one four sick]

Ignition Override:

People who train their children to be martyrs and who also live to murder civilians can make no claims to be moral, humane nor religious. Without conflicts, warlords lose their jobs and followers, and control over others' lives. This is true all over this miserable world, no matter what type of self-righteousness and superiority is promoted.


Absolutely perfect!

[MarkD]

one might also wonder how old the SA-7s were and therefore the condition of their seeker heads.

[Greek God]

Remember that this type of missile (fired by members of Nkomo's ZIPRA) tragically managed to down 2 Air Rhodesia Viscounts in the late 70s. One managed to forced land but the other crashed out of control. Having said that the Strella has a relatively small warhead and IMHO a single hit would be unlikely to down a modern twin fan with the engines being high bypass, podded and relatively isolated from the airframe, nevertheless if any more modern missiles were used that would be a different story. A close call and extremely worrying. Interesting to note that the Saudi Royal 747s & Emirates 747SP have IRCM fitted in the pylons behind each engine.

[steamchicken]

The Guardian reports that the launcher found was an SA14 Gremlin or Strela-3, a development of the SA7

[CargoOne]

Russian military specialists said in interview to the media that up to them there are two factors contributed 99,5% of failure:
1) 90% - heatseeking heads were not replaced, normally heads should be repleaced every 10 years, otherwise sharpness reducing and chances to hit non-military low-by-pass engines are not good enough.
2) 9,5% - terrorists were not professional enough to use SA-7

They allowed other 0,5% for good luck of Arkia's crew.

[Mister Geezer]

It is quite ironic that I made a posting on a current thread called 'Airport Security'. I felt that it was the perimeter areas around an airport that are the weakest link when it comes to airport security and it is the area that can be easily exploited by any terrorist. Security does not stop in the terminal, in fact just as much emphasis should be placed on what is going on outside the terminal. Airport perimeter areas are no exception.

[JJflyer]

That launcher looked like a regular Strela 2or 2M to me. There are slight differences in comparison to the Strela 3. I got trained on the Strela (Arrow) (AKA SA-7B Grail and SA-14 Gremlin respectively) 2M and 3 when in the militray service. If my memory serves me right the warhead is only about 1kg or 3lbs.
Don´t know if they reloaded the launcher or used multiple units Reload time was quite long as you have to change several components before you are ready for another shot. Missile range is around 3 nm.
I have to agree with the Russian specialist that seeker as well as fuzing units where probably out of storage life and luckily did not function as designed.

These thing have been made in Russia, Pakistan, China and Egypt to name a few countries.

[Few Cloudy]

Calling all Spotters!

Nothing against you guys at all - I have often spent time chatting with the spotters to and from my place of work and marvelled at the huge telephoto lenses and state of the art radio equipment they use.

The problem is the facilities which are open - High car parks and terraces overlooking the airfield - parking and snack areas on short final (actually in ZRH on a couple of occasions there have been kites up there and once a guy gave a Jumbo swingover permission to the adjacent runway on his Sony 2-way. This to the consternation of ATC... but that sort of behaviour happens with or without the facilities)

The main point of the post wasn't the spotters but that we'd better get serious pretty quick. As has been pointed out on another thread, most of these places are not security checked.

As to how far around the field do you check - good question! Remember the IRA grenade launcher in the Excelsior car park at LHR, shooting over the A4 onto 27R?

[Curious Pax]

Most terrorists aren't that keen on being caught if they can avoid it - suicide or escape are much preferable. As such places that have lots of people hanging around are going to be less attractive than secluded areas which give time for escape before anyone realises what is happening. So maybe taking our frustrations out on Joe Spotter could prove to be counter productive!

Many years ago I read a pulp paperback that had the storyline that terrorists took a SAM7 launcher on to the roof of a tower block in London and shot down a DC10 with it, which then crashed onto Victoria Station in the rush hour. Much of the book was implausible, but I would think that the central theme was valid, given a fully serviceable missile launcher or suchlike in the hands of someone who knew how to use it. The story demonstrates 2 things - terrorists probably don't just get ideas from reading Pprune or watching CNN, and if you want a 100% successful sterile area around an airport you need to go many miles outside the perimeter.

[Eboy]

Airlines Warned of Missle Threat (from today's Washington Times)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021130-89153611.htm

[ORAC]

News report states that the serial numbers of the launchers show they were manufactured in the USSR in 1974.

[Rollingthunder]

El Al is believed to be the only civilian airline to have installed anti-missile defense systems, following FBI warnings six months
ago that commercial airliners could be targeted by al-Qaida terrorists firing portable surface-to-air missiles.

According to a report in the London Times on Friday, most airlines noted the warning but few took any action because of cost -
some $3 million per aircraft.

The system is said to be capable of sensing an approaching missile and deploying a false signal, usually a flare, to divert it.
Heat-seeking missiles, such as the SAM-7s that were fired at the Arkia plane in Kenya, are drawn to the flare and explode
harmlessly beyond the plane.

The report also notes that civilian airliners are harder to hit than military jets, despite being much larger, because they emit far
less heat.

The FBI issued its warning to civilian airlines after an attack on a US military jet at Dhahran in Saudi Arabia, this year. The
warning said that, "given al-Qaida's demonstrated objective to target the US airline industry, its access to US- and
Russian-made Man-Portable Air Defense Systems (MANPADS), and recent apparent targeting of US-led forces in Saudi
Arabia, law enforcement agencies in the US should remain alert to the potential use of MANPADS against US aircraft."

The Federal Aviation Administration has considered the feasibilty of equipping US civilian aircraft with missile protection, but it
concluded in 1999 that: "Since there have been no confirmed incidents in the US, it is difficult to convince aircraft manufacturers
and airlines of the potential cost benefits of making their aircraft less susceptible and less vulnerable to MANPADS through the
implementation of warning systems."

Philip Baum, the editor of Aviation Security International magazine, said that a $3 million defense system would add only 1.5
percent to the cost of a new Boeing 747.

"With every terrorist incident, we tend to assume further attacks will be of a similar nature," he said. "After September 11, all the
focus went on suicide hijackers getting into the cockpits. The response was to fit reinforced cockpit doors.

"But the new threat could be coming from a different direction. We need to look not only at the intent of a terrorist organization,
but what it is capable of doing in the future."

David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International magazine, was quoted as saying that the aviation industry has been aware
for decades that airliners are vulnerable to this kind of attack: "The question is why people haven't done it more often." But he
cautioned against calls for airlines to be forced to pay for expensive protection systems. "There are many other safety systems
queueing up to be installed on planes which would save many more lives," he said.

A British Airways source said: "We would never say never to this type of equipment, but our view at the moment is that it
belongs in the realm of highly sophisticated military fighter planes."

British Airways would have to spend half its $2.5 billion cash reserves to install the device on each of its 350 aircraft.

A source at Britain's Department for Transport said: "Technically, it is feasible to fit these devices, but it would be extremely
expensive and would not protect against all types of missile. We believe the best protection is good intelligence and security
around airport perimeters."

The Times noted that 100 soldiers traveling on civilian charter aircraft were killed in two attacks in Sri Lanka in 1995, and in
Afghanistan, 52 people died when a Bakhtar Afghan Airlines aircraft was shot down in 1985.

"Only El Al, Israel's national airline, is believed to have installed missile defense systems," it added.

JPost

[JJflyer]

Looks like this is developing into a race. Installing new equipement such as Electronic countermeasures ECM systems to commercial airliners will only make terrorists look for new ways to get to their goal that require a new way to counter it and this circle will go round and round.

What is needed is not technology to try to defend civil aircraft and civilians around the world, but tougher measures in dealing with this scum.
Political correctness needs to be forgotten completely and we need to look for the people that fit the profile of Al Qaeda terrorists. These people use our free society to advance their causes and offer suppor to Ossama A.sshole Bin Laden. A good example is a British based Syrian born Sheik (can´t remeber the full name). He is an open supporter of Bin Laden. It is people like this that need to be put under the microscope. But behold, the moment this is suggested Sheik and his kind will yell Racists. Strmage how this world works.

[PaperTiger]

El Al is believed to be the only civilian airline to have installed anti-missile defense systems, following FBI warnings six months ago Israel does not rely on FBI warnings, luckily for them. I think you'll find El Al has had countermeasures installed for a long time, much longer than six months. Arkia ? Probably.

[rainbow]

For your interest:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993127

[747dreamer]

I just saw a report on ABC on possible terrorists' surface-to-air missile attacks in the US.

There is no chance in hell to defend against this type of attack, so it would be a complete waste of time and money to even try to defend against it.

I live just under the final for rwy17 at MCO and as I watch all those airliners on the final for landing.....they seem so hopelessly defenceless. The terrorists won't even need any sophisticated missiles: simple old fashioned granade launcher, machine guns, or even a NFL quarterback may even do the job for the planes on the final.

But what can we do about it? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion.

We were lucky that those terrorists who attacked the Israeli plane were just bad shots.:o

[Ignition Override]

Was Bush traveling on Air Force One? Has he used it much in the last fifteen months, or at all on Sept 11-12th, '01....? It is such an obvious target. Who would look for him on a large cargo jet, or a very small one built in Wichita, KS? Did CAT's, SAT's, AA's or Intermountain Aviation's planes have clearly identifiable markings while operating with "sheep-dipped" engines and crews etc?

Came back to edit this for typos, but suddenly I hear very loud knocking on my door...excuse me wyv bn wife, rpu reymg an tell her that i e tpl wre dyvf to the et sta si buro

[RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo]

I think he was refering to Clinton's golf game that man just loved to travel. Can tell you That Air Force One (the 747) will have counter measures, AF0ne is actually the call sign of any aircraft that POTUS is aboard.

Interestingly Clinton was in (cairns) Australia on 11/9, he gave a small speech before leaving for the states, was he flying commercial? no, he got into a C141.

[GeneralMelchet]

This months Airforce monthly reports on the Bae 146 CC.2 operated by 32 squadron has had a serious upgrade in its SAM countermeasures suite (reportedly seen in September of this year). I take it Tony et al will only be using this mode of air transport in future.

[West Coast]

Point of order
Its Air Force one if its an air force aircraft, The helo the prez uses is Marine one. If on a civilian registered aircraft, its executive one.

[Heilhaavir]

The Arkia pilots say the missiles sailed past, and one passenger reported a small explosion over the wing. These two accounts
have fueled rumors that the aircraft was equipped with flares. The Israel Armament Development Authority earlier this year unveiled a commercial anti-missile system called Britening, and Israeli air force commander Maj.-Gen. Dan Halutz last week said countermeasures are available on "select" commercial aircraft. Of Arkia's two Boeing 757-300s, one carried Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to a meeting in Washington, D.C., in May.
El Al has used an anti-missile system since the early 80s, Britening is simply a newer and better system. Israel does not rely on FBI warnings :)

Pat

[RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo]

Heilhaavir : I got a run down on the SA7 from someone who used to shoot them and teach people how to avoid them, I wont tell you why they missed, tho you will probably find it elsewhere on the net. Not countermeasures in this instance.

[Ignition Override]

On a major US network just a few minutes ago, Connie Chung interviewed a retired AF General. The chat is about the missile threat to airliners. I noticed that he described a close-call to some US military jet in Saudi Arabia not long ago. After that, the caption on the screen was "missile fired at US jet", or such. Notice that it did not say military jet, as was the case, whether a transport or tactical type; typical media deception for those who missed the previous short comment.

Heck, we had a close call near a GA aircraft which was climbing out of OKC two nights ago, while the FO was on a visual approach dogleg ("pop-up target" on radar) to runway 35R. With a short descent, 1,000 fpm from 4,000 MSL, as commanded by the Resolution Advisory, TCAS helped to save the day/night: missed by about 700' vertically and about 100-300' laterally.

Folks (GA or otherwise) who fly and forget to call, or decide not to talk to ATC can be as much of a threat as a missile. If I'm stepping on toes, then that's a good thing.

[Heilhaavir]

RTFI,
I have no doubt your friend has a certain knowledge in his field, but ask him to do some research on the Aero-Gem (a Rafael system) which was developed to protect the IAF helicopters from surface-to-air missiles such as the SA-7 Strella and consists of an electro-optical suite that identifies a missile threat. Once the threat is identified the system monitors the missile and diverts its course using chaff and flares. The Britening system is merely the civilian version of the Rafael system and has been installed on most 4X aircraft. This is old and declassified news :) and shouldn't be that hard for your friend to verify...
In July of this year an El Al crew reported that a missile had been fired at them after leaving Tel-Aviv for Moscow. Also the Hizbullah is known to have been targeting 4X aircraft landing at an airport near the Lebanese border.
In the late 70s a more primitive system was installed on most 4X aircraft after Khadaffi vowed to down any Israeli aircraft within his reach.
We may discuss this in depth by private email if you wish so as to not overload this board. In the mean time happy holidays to all,

Pat

[RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo]

From what I understand if the aircraft's defensive systems had come on line, not only would it have been dropping flares it would have been manoeuvring "energeticaly". These manoeuvres would not have been pilot initiated. This has not been reported hence (from the way i understand it ) no active defensive system.

You cant just chuck flares / chaff out the back and expect the SAM to go away.

If i remember correctly Khadaffi threatened this because the Isreali's shot down a libyan air 727, if you want to know where all this began it was (I stand to be corrected) the first missile shoot down of a civilian airliner.

[DamienB]

RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo -
...the first missile shoot down of a civilian airliner

If I recall correctly from the article I read about that one, many moons ago, it was an Israeli fighter that shot it down with an AAM, not a SAM.

Edit - found this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/05/wtel405.xml

Feb 21, 1973: A Libyan Arab Airlines Boeing 727 was shot down by Israeli F-4 Phantom jets after it strayed into Israeli-occupied Sinai. The plane crashed into the desert, killing 106 of the 113 people on board.

Sept 3, 1978: An Air Rhodesia Vickers Viscount 782 with 56 people on board was struck by a SAM-7 missile fired by rebels of the Zimbabwe People's Revolutionary Army (Zipra) shortly after take-off from Kariba. The plane crash-landed. Ten of the 18 survivors were later killed by the rebels.

[Heilhaavir]

I will indeed correct you RTFI, and that will be my last post on the subject since we are getting off topic :)

On Feb 21st 1973, Capt. Bourges (I went to school with his son Laurent) was in command of the ill-fated 72. Radio communications between the 72 and Israeli controllers were never established, the Israli jets fired their guns (NOT MISSILES) at the Libyan airliner to minimize the dammage and force him to land. Capt. Bourges lost control and crashed. (In no way am I excusing or diminishing this tragedy, just correcting your "facts"). Israel was at fault and compensated the families after which Kadhaffi blamed Egypt for letting the 72 travel so far off course and blamed Sadat for attempting to provoke tensions between Israel and Libya. Kadhaffi's threat to down an El Al aircraft came several years later when Israel moved into Southern Lebanon in March of 1978.

Now to come back to the special maneuvering of the Arkia jet, it would not be the case with the Britening system, especially with a civilian jet that has a much lower heat signature. The system works fine with the IAF choppers which usually move at a slower pace than the 75 involved :)

In any case you are entitled to your opinion. May I suggest you look the system up (Aero-Gem, Rafael or Britening, all the same), you should find some good info on the net, no technical or in depth data of course, I'm sure you understand why ... LOL

Again, that was my last post on the subject. I hope the other users on this board will accept my appologies for going a bit off topic.

May you all fly safe,

Pat
(Ktanim aval hazakim)

[West Coast]

RTFI
I doubt that the aircraft would be manuevering much. Not with a full boat at low airspeed.

[Few Cloudy]

Appropo - looks as though something along spotter area closure is happening...

verbatim from Avweb 9 Dec 2002:

AIRPORT OBSERVATION PARK CLOSED: Reacting to last week's shoulder-
launched missle attack on an airliner in Kenya, airports large and small have closed observation areas and other public places near their runways. The action was taken after terrorists tried to down an Arkia airliner in Kenya using what may have been former Soviet shoulder-fired Strella anti-aircraft missles. Whether a little park in Fort Lauderdale resembles the launch site in Kenya or not, airport officails aren't taking any chances. According to a report in the South Florida Sun- Sentinel, the park would "overflow with aviation buffs, photographers
and people who enjoy watching airplanes while eating lunch." An
overreaction? Regular park visitors think so but airport officials
aren't quite ready to admit that. "We haven't determined when or if we'll reopen it," airport spokesman Jim Reynolds said.

[DamienB]

:rolleyes: So they close the only place a terrorist wouldn't use because a) it's full of people and b) it has precisely the disadvantage that caused this most recent attempt to fail.

"Do something - anything!" syndrome in full swing.

[JJflyer]

Damien B I agree

Just a while ago I came into the conclusion that by the time people reach the age of thirty they are dumber than the day they where born.

You are right on about the spotters. Them hanging around airports actually increases security as those locations would be hard to use by terrorists. Now it seems that security has worked for the advantage of the terrorists.

That "Do something - anything!" syndrome is really in full swing.

Take note that most of the people making these decisions are older than 30.

[cwatters]

Can someone remind me... Wasn't there a documentay on the BBC not many weeks back about Saudi Arabia? I recall they claimed that the reason the Saudi government wasn't harder on terrorists was their fear of being shot down while flying about in their private jets.

[Ignition Override]

Let's hope that a few "stray" Scud missiles, arriving in whichever Yemen port, are never equipped with active radar guidance and beige camouflage. Defensive only, eh?

[steamchicken]

I don't think even a radar-guided Scud would have much hope of hitting passing aeroplanes....actually, best leave it as it is and point it at an airport, much more worrying.

And how the hell is a big ballistic missile "defensive" anyway?

[perceval]

I can confirm that the Missile launched were of SA7 type (I flew back the Mossad guys with two of the launchers) .
Interesting is the fact that the Arkia incident would have been a lot worse if not for a last minute Runway change (Pilot decision from a Regional Air 737 , that the Arkia decided to follow) at Mombasa airport .
The rest of those guys luck was probably due to lack of training from the terrorists .
A little Thanks to all our kenyan pilots that Rushed to the scene for the evacuations that followed the Hotel Attack .Good Job there.
Unnerving is that uncomfirmed report that a light plane could have flown from Mogadishio to Help Bombing the Hotel .Anybody Knows anything about that ???
The day was sad for all of us in East africa , particularly as one of our colleague lost his life the Very same after his Let 410 was damaged during a forced landing in the Maasai Mara , following an Engine Failure .None of the Passengers were badly injured .
We carry on like all of you .Let us hope for better years in the skies and less fanatics in the world .

[Ignition Override]

SteamChicken: Did the Yemeni govt not tell the media that the missiles were for defensive purposes? At least it sounded that way while watching the news, or maybe read it somewhere in the paper. Please correct me if they stated otherwise.

[Rollingthunder]

Nice to see Yemen can afford Scuds for "defensive" purposes at around $4mil a pop. I shall ask my MP to lobby for a cut-off in humanitarian aid to this state. They obviously don't need it. North Korea can take a flying leap as well.

[411A]

Having been in MBA at the time of attack (port, not airport), security was poor to non-existant for about three hours after the hotel incident, then increased somewhat.
Kenya now has a very big problem. For a country that derives a very large portion of its revenue from tourism will certainly see a huge decline in tourist arrivals. The deputy port captain mentioned to me that, in his opinion, the Kenian government has only paid lip service to the terrorist threat up to now, and he hoped that other governments will now wake up and take stock of the situation, and act accordingly.
Europe especially has been very slow to realise that they just might be next on the hit list.

[Ignition Override]

411A: Excellent points you made, as is often the case.

In my opinion it is such a shame that so many countries are not bold enough to confront Iraq's brutal "leader", as was the case with another quite brutal leader during the Munich talks in '38.

Unity can help prevent war when dealing with such bullys: isn't that one of the ultimate goals? What is the main problem, too many profits from business or concern that Saddam's feelings will be hurt?

[411A]

Not so much miffed feelings or lost business, Ignition Override, 'tis the "not in my backyard" scenario that drives the European resistance to any reasonable decisive action, IMO.
Unless and until all governments realise that terrorism needs to be stamped out will the present situation change appreciably.