NATS College of ATC Bournemouth

[ATCWannabe]

Anyone here could provide the exact address of the college and recommend on accommodation nearby? Any help would be much appreciated!

[Dances with Boffins]

The College of Knowledge can be found at:-
NATS College of Air Traffic Control,
Bournemouth International Airport,
Christchurch,
Dorset
BH23 6DF
United Kingdom

For all things accomodation, either write to Mrs Karen Foster at the above address, or telephone on
+44 1202 472256

Are you one of the students on the forthcoming HK Aerodrome/Approach course?:)

[bwatchbabe]

If NATS management is serious about increasing staff numbers lets look at the college of ATC at bournmouth. It really is time this establishment was given a thorough clear out and not used as a rest home for the infirm or incompetent. A lot of the problems that the units have with training can be traced directly back to the college and some extremely dated techniques being taught.
In this age where the customer rules, we at the units(as customers of the college) should be insisting that the end product, ie the student, be of a reasonable standard.
We should certainly not return instructors to the college who have failed to validate at units after leaving the college.
A recent attempt to get valid atco's to instruct there resulted in one of the better instructors at LACC being marginalised and finally forced out for trying to teach modern techniques applicable to busy and complex airspace.

[VectorLine]

Maybe NATS should stop taking on contracts for training foreign students, and use the resources that are then freed up to train the NATS students who are having to 'hold'

It's about time NATS got this staff shortage thing sorted.

TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN = VALIDATIONS!

[Mr_Grubby]

bwatchbabe.

You have hit the nail right on the head.
For too long the CATC has been a dumping ground for the detritus of ATC. In recent years this has begun to reflect in the standard of the end product ie the student. It's not their fault that most are rubbish. It's the fault of the system that 'trained' them. The CATC is rotten from the top man down.

Mr G.

[Bern Oulli]

Mr G and BwatchBabe. I'm not at all sure that this is the right thread to be slagging off CATC. You are by all means entitled to whatever weird opinions you may have, but to air them in response to a plea from overseas for directions is a bit much.

Why don't you start a new thread, or better still, come to CATC and see if you could hack it as an instructor. Somehow I would doubt it - being dogmatic, domineering, opinionated and small-minded are not the best qualities for instructional purposes.

For Vectorline's info, training Hong Kong staff on Aerodrome and Approach in no way takes resources from the Area training side, so unless you know what you are mouthing off about, shut up or simply demonstrate how ignorant you are.

ATCWannabe, you will find College instructors much more polite, like me and Dances with Boffins!

[roger]

The staff at the college teach directly from MATS part one per batum. They are there to provide a basis on which to build from, LACC is very different to LTCC SCATCC Manc. etc etc.

From a LACC point of view at least, most trainees will have held for at least 18 months before starting on radar. It's not surprising the standard is poor, and I don't think we should be wholly blaming the instructors at the college.

The whole system needs to be shook up and it won't be for a long time that operational units are up to numbers. Untill this happens only the "infirm or incompetent" (sorry Steph and others) will be released to instruct at the college.


roger

[mysteryman]

Thanks come home and read this uninformed claptrap

We at the college work damn hard providing trainees
the tuition that is laidout and required
mostly for nothing or a box of sweets
strange how fast the knifes appear and
the finger pointing starts after you've left
many thanks for your continuing support
colleagues ?

MM:cool:

[NBanker]

The staff at the college teach directly from MATS part one per batum

Per batum? I'm no Latin scholar, roger, but I presume you mean verbatim, meaning "word for word" or "as written".

On the subject of the quality of CATC instructors, if the semi-literate writings of mysteryman - "slagging off's", "laidout", "knifes" etc, - are indicative of their general level of education, may the Lord have mercy on their students! :(
NB

[bwatchbabe]

Roger, I already hack it as an instructor and an examiner and a truce assessor. I agree with you that the whole system of training within Nats needs a shake up but lets not try to defend the indefensible. The college is a shambles and needs a lot more input from valid controllers from all units.

[Dances with Boffins]

Whilst not seeking to prevent any free and frank exchange of views about the merits or otherwise of CATC, I would like to point out to our bretheren along the coast that unlike LACC, CATC has to operate in a competitive market. Would anyone wishing to further this conversation please therefore continue it on the NATS forum, where hopefully we can have a good old airing of opinion, without any non-NATS eavesdropping.
This thread started as a request for information, from a future student who will be attending the College as a part of a contract which has had, and will have, no impact on Area Training at all. All BWB and co have done is given this person a thoroughly un-professional display before they've even arrived in country. Congratulations.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73975

[bwatchbabe]

Why would I discuss this matter further with you when you display exactly the attitude and blinkered opinions that create the problem. As for red angry faces.... Most mature and professional!

[roger]

NBanker
thanks for the correction, me english ain't much gooder but it looked good at the time(after more than a couple)
bwatchbabe
I semi hack the same LCE OJTI thing and mainly blame the stagnent training system once they leave the college.(this is slowly changing)
Having said that if they could release valid ATCOS to teach students this would be an excellent idea, although with my earlier point this will not happen for years.
That's about it for now..(apologies for any spelling or grammar mistakes, I'm sure you all get the idea)

roger

[Honey Monster]

So its time to rubbish the college again is it?

At CATC we are always looking for suitable instructors, both Area & Aerodrome/Approach disciplines.

Why not apply and make your contribution to changing what you perceive to be wrong.

It is a rewarding job - taking new students from off the streets and nurturing them through to graduation.

Perhaps you are worried that you would not make the grade as an instructor?

Put your money where your mouth is, or shut up!

[Partly Achieved]

As has already been said - you could get a pretty negative view of CATC from reading this thread - So here's my £0.02s worth as a recent 'product' of CATC. :

The place aint perfect, but it works. From starting at CATC to validating at my unit took 20 months (and I was not the first off my course to validate) - and that is due to the high quality of the training and the insructors (both at CATC and my unit).

PA

[Gonzo]

Thought I'd add my thoughts. I went through the college between March 98 and March 99.

First of all it's great fun, but that also depends on your fellow students as well as the instructors and the environment. I found that on the whole the Instructors work hard to give you the help that's required. Of course, as in any training situation, some work harder and give more help than others. Some had a better (or perhaps I should say better for me) training technique than others. I don't know how many ADC/APR instructors there were at the time, but I'd say there was only one from whom I gained absolutely nothing (and it may not be the one who immediately comes to mind, for my contemporaries!). I had a nose around when I came down for my OJTI course in March, sat in with a few sim runs. It's a shame that one of the College instructors who's visited LHR for Operational Refresher Training actually fell asleep while sitting next to me, so much for finding out how the 'real world' do it. Though maybe that says more about my controlling technique than it does about him? :D

Honey Monster, I agree with you about the rewards of being an instructor, and that really appeals to me, but something that I'd be afraid of is losing capacity if I was at CATC for the long term. I can feel I'm rusty on bandboxed GMC after two cycles' leave!

Gonzo.

[2 sheds]

Partly Achieved

Thank you for your far more balanced comment - that a trainee's success depends very much on the combination of instruction (the whole system as well as the individuals involved) at both the Colleges and on the units.

Bwatchbabe's libellous and unprofessional ravings achieve nothing useful. If her (?) alleged qualifications are correct, we ought to expect something far more detailed and constructive from her. Has (s)he has ever considered whether her own contribution to the training system is up to standard?

If the College or the system is so poor, how is it that all the experts who criticise it have managed to succeed? But then, we all know the definition of an expert!

2 S


"I wonder if (s)he's the right man for the job?" - Major H Grytpype-Thynne.

[bwatchbabe]

Libellous? I really doubt wether my comments were either that or rantings as you suggest. As to my 'alleged' qualifications ; I can assure you they are both genuine and hard earned over many years. If you were to read some of my other comments you would be aware that I am only too ready to accept that there are failings throughout the training system. However we are specifically discussing CATC. You are correct to state that we are all products of the college but I must wonder how many people get through despite the training rather than because of it. When you start to look at each instructor and his/her current experience in busy,complex airspace then you MUST query their ability to pass on and teach modern techniques. I have no wish to conduct a witch hunt of individuals at the college but it is in the interest of all operational controllers to get training correct and that process must start at the college. The immediately agressive responses from college staff to my postings only indicates to me that they are aware of the shortcomings of the college and aren't used to having their competency questioned (an annual occurence at operational units).
They would also appear to be unable to have meaningful adult discussions without resorting to childish abuse.

[Honey Monster]

bwatchbabe

If you took the trouble to check your facts before sounding off, you would know that all instructors have to pass annual competence checks in the classroom and their teaching skills on simulators. They must also pass annual competency checks in the hot seat on the simulators for every course they teach.

Like you, if they fail they are removed from that task immediately and given further training before being re-examined. If they fail again, they are subject to the same procedures as you are.

[2 sheds]

Bwatchbabe

So sorry for any childish abuse. We must have misinterpreted...

"It really is time this establishment was given a thorough clear out and not used as a rest home for the infirm or incompetent. A lot of the problems that the units have with training can be traced directly back to the college and some extremely dated techniques being taught"

..... and the little witicism about 1 braincell.......

....as being constructive, factual comment.

And I think you would find that your comments in the first sentence are, in fact, libellous.

However, if you wish to be serious, why not be more specific about what outdated techniques are being taught? I am not quite sure how techniques, as such, become outdated. Are you sure that you are not confusing perfectly sound procedures with specific operational practices that one would only expect to be taught on the units?

More to the point, as Berny suggests, why not continue this on the Nats site.

[eyeinthesky]

I've been watching this exchange with some interest, and have refrained from commenting so far. All I will do is post a comment from another thread which concerns the use of 'Expedite'. One poster wrote the following:

Quote

And when I was at the college, expedite wasn't permitted, they'd much prefer to screw you up by getting that left hand orbit in

Unquote

Good appreciation of modern practices??:p

[mainecoon]

this is a two sided debate now

some area some apr

i came out of the place in 1991 so can't comment on many staff at this time

steph hello we were 73 together

ideas on subject would be more helpfull if area or approach were stated and a little less of the nasty comments and more constructive is the direction to go

ps (fiona hello to you i'm on c watch now)

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Errrr........

Sorry to interrupt but back to the question asked, when I was down at PPSC I was lucky enough to hit upon a great bed and breakfast that was very quiet and proved instrumental in getting this non-academic through my ATPL exams in the first sitting by having somewhere to study.

Its called the Willowdene Hotel on Grande Avenue, its a stones throw from the beach (for those long walks to clear your head) its run by Mary & Roger and amber the cocker spaniel. The food was great and is a 5 minute car journey from the airport.

I was last there in 1999 but I cant imagine the place changing much (apart from maybe the decor).

The place is very clean and all rooms have their own En Suite etc etc. They also discount if you book for the duration of your course.

You can get them on 01202 425370

ding ding...........box!

[granny smith]

CATC knockers and bwatchbabe and Mr Grubby in particular.

I am appalled and disgusted at the garbage being written about CATC by those who very obviously do not have the faintest idea what they are talking about.

I DO know what I'm talking about as I was an instructor at CATC for several years. I have since successfully returned to operations and hold a validation in approach radar. I work at the busiest airport in the region and had no trouble revalidating in the MER.

I believe you are moaning about the Area side of CATC (not my area of expertise admittedly) but all you are doing is perpetuating the half truths and lies that the ill-informed and petty minded already believe. In my time as a CATC instructor I learned a huge amount about being an ATCO that I had forgotten since leaving as a Cadet. I don't just mean the pedantic little things but some pretty important pieces of info. As a result of my CATC tour I am now a much better ATCO than I was before going there.

The college is only as good as the instructors. By continuing to slag it off in this way YOU are a part of the PROBLEM not part of the solution. How is CATC to recruit quality instructors if the widely held perception is that the place is full of has-beans and "the detritus of ATC"? I can assure you that this is NOT the case.

Like the Airports side, the vast majority of my Area bretheren were motivated to be good instructors (well, as motivated as anyone in NATS these days) and able ATCOs. Of course there are one or two individuals who might be considered less competent but can you honestly say this is just a CATC problem? I can speak from personal experience and assure you that all NATS ATCOs receive vastly better training at CATC than thos from the rest of the world.

If you want a better standard of CATC instructor and, by your logic, a better standard of Trainee then put you money where you over active mouth is and go there yourself. I would remind you, however, that the best operational ATCOs (don't get excited, I doubt you fit into that category however much you might think it yourself) seldom make the best instructors.

[mhk77]

Speaking as a very recent member of a successful ACS2 course, I'd like to thank all the instructors both on my behalf, and on behalf of my colleagues, for getting us through the college and getting us through what at the end of the day is a very difficult course. Maybe the college isn't perfect, but as Partly Achieved said, it does work. The instructors work their nuts off for us and ultimately it's SRG which dictate to the instructors what they can and can't teach us, so why not let off some steam at them? As for you BWATCH'BABE', how hypocritical can you get calling people unprofessional? We students come on this forum and do you think it does our confidence any good seeing people like you calling us 'rubbish' (as your partner in crime Mr_Grubby called us)? Surely you're the unprofessional one in all this?

[AlanM]

More recently than you would imagine, I feel! ;)

[mine's a double]

As aanother recent product of the college, I'd like to ask is it not the system that's at fault, not the college itself?
The instructors do their job and do it well. They give us the instruction and advice needed to pass the course. In general they do it well, there is the odd one who doesn't, but there always are people who aren't up to the job they do, no matter where you are, in ATC or not.
As for validating us new trainee's, that's up to the OJTI's. If we struggle, it's up to you to help us pass. Don't blame it on the college, they've already done their bit.
The problem is that they have to teach from MATS Pt1, and pinch a bit from every NATS unit MATS Pt2. It can't be solely based around one unit.

Finally thanks to ALL the instructors at the college, you made what is the hardest thing I've achieved so far in my life good fun!!

[granny smith]

dontdoit

a lot more recently that you think

AlanM - is my cover blown? Don't mention names though.

Nice to see some former SATCs standing up for their tormentors. I is a great feeling to see the people you have invested a lot of time and effort in getting through the college finally validating. Luckily they don't all turn out like bwatchbrat and Mr Gormless!

regards

Granny

[AlanM]

GS - blown a while back!!!

No names will be mentioned.........as long as you can guarentee my anonymity!!!!:cool: :D ;)

tee heee

[Bern Oulli]

GS
As you say, nice to see former students (sorry, they are now "trainees") standing up for the CATC system. I would not maintain that CATC is perfect - nowhere is, but Mine's a Double is quite correct. We should be looking at the whole system from Day 1 to validation. CATC is just a part of that system, and unless it is "seamless" and co-ordinated then there will be discontinuities which may adversly affect the trainees (and their long-suffering OJTI's).

The College (and the other ATC training establishments) teach what SRG say has to be taught. If this is not meeting unit requirements then there needs to be serious discussion between the interested parties. If the units are not taking freshly scrubbed trainees from the College and putting them straight into the validation training process then they are making life difficult for themselves and the trainees. Perhaps that aspect needs looking at as well. Some units are spectacularly bad at following up the CATC training with meaningful unit training. Others are very good.

One thing is certain, the system is not yet seamless or as near perfect as it could be. And if it does seem to be a bit "broke" surely we should be attempting to fix it in a constructive way, rather than destructively blaming one specific part of "the system".

Finally, never overlook the fact that CATC does not just service NATS units. The rating requirements are not simply for NATS personnel, they apply to anyone from anywhere in the UK who wants an ATC licence.

[tired-flyboy]

:eek: here's a thought

The mighty NATS is now private, so what are they doing wasting time and money getting military controllers (both area and terminal) to retrain (over the full course) when many of them have already got experience at a high level.:confused:

surely this could be the answer to many shortage problems that NATS have!

[Captain Spunkfarter]

College Instructors

Those guys are the best of the best of the best!

As AlanM would verify, Granny Smith was the Top Gun.

I personally am a sh*t-hot controller (or is that just sh*t?), and I couldn't face teaching 30 spotty little oiks about Aerodrome Lighting. I'd probably mess myself. Oops...I just have!

[vwatchtc]

The CATC does use burnt out ATCOs who did not validate, esp at Area units. NATS is not going to bin these people. It has to be said that some of them do make a tremendous effort to contribute. Others live in a pedantic paradise which does not apply to the real world. The CATC currently uses three ATCOs who hold TC and en route validations. Management would probably pay lip service to agreeing that this number should be increased but would be wary of the extra costs entailed. If they could staff AREA without resorting to this ploy they would do so. There is little difficulty encountered in recruiting aerodrome ATCO instructors as for many it represents promotion from ATCO 3 to ATCO 2. They are desperately short of suitable AREA applicants. Why is this? Could it be that for most folk it is just not an attractive proposition?

[Gonzo]

Captain..........

".........I personally am a sh*t-hot controller (or is that just sh*t?)"

Well, now there's a question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D

Gonzo.

BTW, have a new waistcoat!

[52xmax]

The main problem with NATS ATCO training is not the college. The biggest problem is AC training system at LATCC and probably now NERC. There is major cultural problems in the system and attitudes of the staff. Ten years of poor training have resulted in the failure to validate enough ATCO's hence our problems today. The job is probably no more difficult than at other units(don't give the usual Nerc reply to that especially those who have never been anywhere else, that covers about 97% of you), its the training and motivation of the staff to change their ways.
It has been badly managed and played with for years. Anyone who has validated if they our honest with themselves it was by trial and error on most occassions and not structured training.
Then you validate become an OJTI so your thoughts turn to, I had it hard and so will they.
Help the trainees don't let them crash and burn.

The stats will show no failures at LATCC or at Nerc. Why is that? posting them on to get proper training.

TC on the other hand are away ahead in their training system, structure and culture. Learn from them but I think it is already to late.

[C U JIMMY]

Hang on a second,
I think we all realise that it's not the fault of our esteemed colleagues, be they at the college of knowledge or at LACC that trainees aren't being turned out quickly enough.
Don't forget that Nats new about the staffing problems many years ago pre Swanwick, and did nothing to address the forecasted lack of ATCOs. Add this to a system which takes 33% more people to run, and the forthcoming retirement glut, and you've got a real problem which isn't addressed in the long term with any gusto by, you've guessed it, our old freinds the management.
If you're going to vent your spleen at anyone, direct it towards the incompetent mob on level 4 who continue to firefight rather than actually invest in the long term in any real way.
Remember also it is not the fault of us fine people in Swanwick that trainees are holding on the wings for 1 year on average, that's been agreed by the union to get them into the staffing numbers to cover for the shortage of ATSAs. Now, before anyone starts mouthing off about the value of wings training, remember, it's not the interesting, challenging role it was at LATCC when you did it. Ask an LACC assistant and they'll tell you that.
The real problems regarding training at both the college and at the units wear suits, pick up whopping great bonuses and call themselves management when in reality they would fiind it hard to manage a sh*t

[granny smith]

Captain

How awfully nice of you to say so - must be a mis-ident (as I remember not all that uncommon during your radar courses!!).

Nice to see some sensible discussion for a change.

vwatchtc

Yes there are a number of the ATCOs you describe at CATC and you make my point at the end - if the ATCO public at large continue to hear that it is a dead end posting and that only the "dross" go there then they are not likely to volunteer themselves. I would encourage all ATCOs to go to CATC for a liaison visit. I suggest you'll almost certainly be very surprised at how much it has changed.

The other posters have also hit the nail on the head - it is a lack of planning and investment and the management commitment to invest in training people properly that is the problem and continues to be the problem not just in the UK.

cheers

Granny