CRM Advice

[dynamite dean]

I am having my first ever sim ride in a big plane next year - some of the tips have been positive form other forums, in fact encouraging me to be myself as I am excited and very intimidated by it as well - I am just a an Instructor wanting to get on.

Anyhow, I am an easy going bloke and comments which I have recieved from other more estabilshed Prunner's is that I must use "good CRM".

Without sounding all like a dummy the biggest thing I've flown was an Apache and I regularly teach on cherokees!
So my point is in a multi crew enviroment how do I use good CRM?
Is that the differnce from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!"
on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example.

Am I missing the point ?
CRM to me is about human dynamics in the cockpit am I right in saying this?

HELP????????????????

I don't know much on this topic and what are Captains looking for in a co pilot?
I know there are millions of books on this "CRM" and so advice and tips can only be in the broadest sense , so any would be of great value to myself at this stage...you know so I can at least prepare mentally.
Thanks



:eek: :eek:

[GlueBall]

CRM has mostly to do with accommodating personality differences in a confined work environment; it's about maintaining a professional relationship with your crewmembers at all times. Maintaining the "profile" means adherance to SOPs without individualizing procedures, yet allowing crewmembers to develop and exercise their own techniques of handling the airplane within accepted training standards.

CRM is the sharing of thoughts and advice with your fellow crewmembers during abnormal or emergency conditions. Because no amount of simulator training and no checklist can ever address every problem encountered in the real world.

Every crewmember has a unique perspective on solving a particular problem. Each crewmember has something to contribute. The days when a captain was a god are gone. Nevertheless, the cockpit is not a democracy, the captain is still the captain with the final authority and responsibility. But the other crewmembers have a right to speak up and to be assertive when the safety of flight is in question.

[Skaz]

CRM is all about synergy.

[Ignition Override]

They are right, and a very comprehensive definition, Glueball. Just some more real-world examples here:

If you can communicate anything to another crewmember without a tone of voice which suggests that you are amazed by, or avoid any ridicule that xxx mistake could be made by him/her, or implying that the other pilot is a bit of a wimp when they ask for a longer downwind (maybe they are pretty tired with dry eyes from fatigue and/or a lack of sleep, and don't want to quickly rush through "alright, gear-down, flaps 25, flaps 40-Landing Checklist" as you are waiting for Tower to give you the landing clearance on runway 35: did Approach say for the left or right?), or they say that a go-around might be needed due to a slam-dunk approach from ATC, or they say that they will call the Dispatcher to add a little extra fuel to the Release fuel figure with no alternate or extra/tanker fuel included...etc. If you suspect that, as you begin the Approach Check, you never really READ [maybe he never called for it during two altitude restrictions with VOR course changes thru 18,000'...] the Descent Check...what would you say or do? Hope this is not too much out of context and long.

The less delicate the other pilot'(s') cockpit ego, the easier it can be. But remember, two or three guys (i.e. male pilots, to contradict the modern American slang for guys and gals) together find it harder to communicate their basic doubts or concerns (are we rushing too much under these conditions?) to each other.

[MaximumPete]

d d

E-mail me privately and I'll send you some stuff.

MP

[Lump Jockey]

What does CRM stand for please? I've heard 2 explainations, forgot both! Sorry!......Another thing that has always accured to me, and that's is being on the flightdeck that much different from any other job when it comes to "getting on" and having the right "synergy" or rapport? Read this right now, I know full well piloting an airliner isn't the same as a "normal" job, I'd NEVER say that and I have nothing but absolute respect for you guys who are "lucky" enough to be doing it. It seems to me, the stuff I've been reading here on the forum, that pilots DO have a sense of humour, and are NOT stuck up snobs, (like they maybe once were?!), so why do it seem such an issue when it comes to sharing that little room up front with, at the end of the day, another bloke?

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Lump Jocky

If I remember correctly the original meaning of CRM was Cockpit Resources Management. The concept was originated by United Airlines after several bad experiences due to the lack of CRM.

:cool:

[dolly737]

Lump Jockey:

Since the focus of attention in CRM has shifted from the pure technical aspect towards the human factor in the last decade, the C (in CRM) today is more frequently translated with “CREW”.

[Atropos]

CRM: The use of all available resources in order to enable safe and efficient flight operations.

Communicate effectively, share your mental models, maintain high levels of situation awareness and make appropriate decisions. Lastly and not least REVIEW, REVIEW, REVIEW all your decisions. Easy innit?

[safetypee]

Some humor for the holidays, but there is a serious message here.

THE RIGHT SEAT

'First Officers Code of Ethics'

Survival Rules:-

Don't fly at night.
Don't fly in bad weather.
Keep your poor attitude a secret.
Don't sleep while your Captain is.
Never, ever eat a crew meal in the dark.
Talk up the advantages of early retirement.
Don't fly with a Captain nicknamed "Lucky".
Don't make better landings than your Captain.
Speak very, very softly when you speak to your Captain.
Never, ever awaken your Captain when he is smiling in his sleep.
Don't interfere if your Captain absolutely insists on making a fool of himself.
It's hell to fly with a nervous Captain, especially if you're the one making him nervous!
Keep your Captain out of the morgue, jail, the papers, FAA hearings, and Chief Pilot's office.
Always let your Captain be the first out the door of the airplane. After all, there may not be any stairs.
It's better to be down here, arguing about how you are going to do it up there; than to be up there arguing.

As a First Officer, your primary job is to detect and correct mistakes:-

1. First, your own mistakes.
2. Second, your Captain's mistakes.
3. Finally, everybody else's mistakes.

Don't expect your Captain to:-

Wear expensive uniform shoes;
Pick up the meal check on a layover;
Wear a small or inexpensive wristwatch;
Be impressed with your flying background;
Believe the FAA is doing a satisfactory job;
Purchase his own newspaper to read on a trip.
Hear and understand the ATC request the first time;
Buy anything without asking for an airline discount;
Respect the competency of senior airline management;
Think flying is more fun today than it was in the good old days;

The two basic rules of a Captain's authority:-

Rule One. The Captain is always right.
Rule Two. IF, the Captain is ever observed making a mistake, see Rule One.

When you upgrade to Captain, you must:-

1. Accept responsibility for being right all of the time.
2. Compensate for all of those inept and disrespectful Co-pilots.

With acknowledgements to Capt Bob Besco

Also see a paper by Bob Besco
To intervene or not to intervene? the co-pilot's catch 22.
“P.A.C.E.” Probing. Alerting, Challenging, and Emergency warning
The integration of crew resource management with operational procedures.

Sorry I do not have a source location for paper.

[Rumbo de Pista]

Hi dean, you wrote:

'Is that the difference from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!" on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example.'

And in this specific instance, you should simply say, 'Gear up'. No names, no 'please' or 'thank you', and only 'now' if you're the commander, you are cast-iron certain that your reading of the sitaution is right, and that your colleague is delaying a vital action, which must be done urgently.

Niceties, compliments, etc., will define you as being a polite and pleasant individual in the office, briefing room, or bar. Clear, standard calls and responses in the flight deck will define you as a professional operator.

(Of course, if your Ops Manual says something other than 'Gear up', then you need to say what it says in the manual. All my life I've dreamed of finding an operator who still uses 'undercart'!!).

All the other stuff above about CRM is pretty well on target. Alternatively, we could talk about 'airmanship', except that this causes sharp intakes of breath by training-type-people and reduces your chances of career progression.

[dogcharlietree]

QUOTE : So my point is in a multi crew enviroment how do I use good CRM?
Is that the differnce from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!"
on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example. END.

I was once doing a base check at Avalon and said to the Fleet Captain, "Gear Up Please".
To which he responded, "You're a Captain, you don't ask, you order!"
My reply was "I'll ask at least twice before I order".
Courtesy still applies in the cockpit.

[Rumbo de Pista]

Quote: 'Courtesy still applies in the cockpit'.

So do your colleague(s) a favour and show them the courtesy of using correct operational words and phrases at all times and acknowledging that niceties are not for critical phases of flight.

Your fleet captain was right, in my view.

[Atropos]

Rdp,
I think you are wrong and the previous poster is correct. In non-critical stages of flight a please or thankyou goes a long way cannot be misunderstood and helps to make the world go round. Our profession is anally retentive enough without anachronistic people advocating not saying please and thankyou. If the plane is on fire fair enough, there is a time and a place for everything but lets not discourage a little common sense and decency.

[Rumbo de Pista]

Don't get me wrong. I'm very happy with 'Would you get me the weather for Goose Bay, please?', but anything below FL100 or so should not involve words not written in the Ops Manual. Have you ever read a CVR transcript from an incident/accident, and thought 'why all the non-operationally-necessary words and phrases?'. That is reason enough to stick to what's in the book. No more, no less.

PS, check your dictionary. I'm not being anachronistic.

[Atropos]

RDP,
I suggest you check your dictionary, I know what anachronistic means and I was using it advisedly.

[Rumbo de Pista]

Thank you Atropos, I don't need to check my dictionary. Might I suggest you check yours and consider whether I was in fact being anti-anachronistic?

Or perhaps whether I was being anachronistic or not depends, in this instance, upon your reading of that which is 'in-time'. I submit that as current published advice and instruction including my company's Manuals indicates that the use of niceties in the flight deck should be avoided, I am very much in keeping with the time. You may wish to criticise that advice as being out-of-time, and could possibly twist the term in an effort to do so, but I don't feel that this would be a winnable argument... Are you suggesting that many authors of Ops Manuals are out of step with curent safe practice?

[BlueEagle]

There is no proof, that I am aware of, that being polite on the flight deck, saying please and thank you etc. has ever impinged on flight safety and any suggestion that being polite is unprofessional is purely in the minds of those who elect not to do so.

The fact that a company actually puts guidance/instructions in it's SOPs to the effect that such words and phrases are improper often only reflects the opinion of the individual with responsibility for writing that particular section or chapter and can be amended out with little difficulty - no worthwhile aviation authority is going to get worked up over such trivia.

My most unpleaseant time as an FO was when flying with an ex USN pilot who was never heard to be polite to anyone. The atmosphere on the flight deck was always tense and generated a fertile environment for errors, large or small.

In thirty six years flying I have tried to maintain a correct and polite stance when dealing with all issues, normal or abnormal and have never been censured for it once.

I believe Atropos and dogcharlietree are correct in their approach to this issue.

[GlueBall]

Our SOP include specific standardized phrases for "commands" which strictly preclude individualizations.
It's: "Gear Down!"
Not: "Landing Gear Down."
Not: "Gear Lever Down."
Not: "Landing Gear Lever Down."
Not: "Gear Down, please." (Nothing to do with "politeness").

But we do say: "could you please lower the temperature a little?" :cool:

[Rumbo de Pista]

GlueBall,

You're spot on! Thanks for that!

BlueEagle,

Very sorry to read your first paragraph. I agree entirely with the sentiment expressed there, but there is a time and a place, as GlueBall so ably shows.

As someone who writes bits of the Ops Manuals for a biggish company, I take exception to your remarks about willy-nilly amendments to manuals. Changes are made for a good reason following discussion, not to satisfy individual whim, at least in my mob.

Does your experience extend to being aware of the 'Cheer up!' accident some years ago?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

There is less likelyhood of a mistake being made in understanding a request for a selection of any switch, lever, or control movement if clear precise words are used. ie. "gear down" rather than "could you put the gear down honey"

Being polite is more a tone of voice and body langiuage than the use of flowery phrases.

CRM is all about safety and understandable commands for any needed action.

Trying to tie CRM with being politically or socially correct is counterproductive to good airmanship and crew co-ordination.

An a.. ho.. is still an a.. ho.. even when they are being polite.

Cat Driver:

[BlueEagle]

Yes Rumbo I have, for many years, heard the oft repeated anecdote about "Cheer Up", but have never found anyone who could actually quote the incident!:)

I do not subscribe to saying something like, "Would you be so kind as to raise the gear?" I believe that saying something like that would be plain stupid, but, a simple 'Please' and ' Thank You' should not confuse the issue.

Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that you don't know of a single incident anywhere amongst the Ops Manuals you have had dealings with where an indivudual has not influenced the input? I have seen, in both very large and very small companies, items included under one reign only to be deleted under another, I am sure you have too.

[Atropos]

Chaps,
Don't misunderstand me. If the kite's on fire after take off its GEAR UP. On a nice sunny day with no problems Gear Up please is what I say. You can argue till you are blue in the face about what that might cause. I would suggest the only thing it does is engender the right sort of atmosphere in the flight deck!

[Sheep Guts]

OK guys have read the posts, I am in the belief of keeping to your sops even if it means Sterile Cockpit below FL100 ,which sounds a bit of an overkill unless its the Concorde.

I am Small Turbo Prop Captain in a type that is really a single pilot Airplane. I went from 3500HRS of singlepilot ops to 2 Crew Ops last year as a start off Captain. During my training I made all the mistakes including niceties, of which the Company Check Captain and Authority Testing Officer both said that nicities should remain outside. So I went to work with this in the back of my head. I did fell tense, the first couple of months, but have eased off now. I can asure that most of us, faced with an Emergency the nicities will definitely be naturaly left out of the procedure.

What erks me is the apparent 2 different theories expressed in this thread. Surley CRM in 2002 has eliminated any uncertainty in this area. I know Flight Safety believes in a sterile cockpit analogy, and all nonessential words minimized.

Just my 2 cents worth

[calypso]

There are nice ways of saying 'GEAR UP' and very abrasive ways of saying 'GEAR UP PLEASE'. The problem is using the SOP's as an excuse to grumpy and offhand behaviuor.

The point must be that a good atmosphere in the cockpit contributes to the team effort and improves comunication and safety. The party really begins in the crewroom. Is this one of the points of CRM?. More experienced people can perhaps say.

[Captain Stable]

I find myself in agreement with both sides here, but mostly with calypso.

Like many Brits, I find it very hard to leave out the "please". However, I work for a non-British carrier whose philosophy is very non-British (surprie, surprise! ;) ) and who cannot understand why their British employees feel the need to include it.

The manner in which things are said can, as calypso points out, make a huge difference, and if the SOPs state that you leave it out then it is a little unprofessional not to make an effort to leave it out.

After all, saying word like "please" and "thank you" do not comprise the entirety of the atmosphere on the flight deck.

[GJB]

You may have already read: "The Naked Pilot: The Human Factor in Aircraft Accidents" by David Beaty.

If not, it's worth reading - there is a lot of good information about CRM.

[Captain Stable]

Well said, GJB - IMHO "The Naked Pilot" should be required reading for all pilots.

[Slasher]

Ive done quite a few CRM modules over the years and yeh I agree with the concept - when I was an F.O. years ago it was in the age of "F.O.s should be seen and not heard." It p!ssed me off a bit but I lived with it. Nowadays I think this new CRM stuff is a good thing.

What is very bloodey anoying is CRM is the catchcry of weak crew members - "Hes not using CRM!" and a 40yo captain with 20 years in the game is hauled in because of a complaining 21yo Quake generation wonder-boy. This complaining is esp so from those whos situational awareness is crap. There are SOME THINGS that can be done without having a discusion when its obvious even to a tree-stump that that particuler action must be done.

CRM comes naturaley to profesionals who know there stuff. The varius modules enhance and strengthen it which Im all for. But its also become a weapon used to prop up the importance of some egos.

[Cap 56]

There have been many incidents and accidents were invetigations have revealed that the crew overlooked important information.

As a consequance CRM was develloped in order to cope with this problem.

Since it is the captains responsability to conduct a flight safely, it is also his responsability that an enviroment is created that allow everybody involved in the safe conduct of a flight to have an input.

We are all human beings and as such we make mistakes, realising this is opening the door to good CRM.

There are a lot of pitfalls in human communication realizing this will lead the way.

[alf5071h]

Here is a link for the PACE reference – safetypee 23 Dec post. P.A.C.E. (http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/alf5071h.htm) see PACE 1.
Although this paper was written with the co-pilot in mind, the principles apply to all crew, especially when in the primary monitoring role. Also, see PACE 2 at the bottom of the web page, this is a similar paper, but with examples.

A more recent view of CRM, being more focussed on threat and error management, in addition to using all available resources in order to enable safe and efficient flight operations, is here The Evolution of Crew Resource Management Training (http://www.raes-hfg.com/reports/15oct03-RHelmreich.pdf)
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Unless specifically authorized everything else is forbidden.

[whatunion]

Dynamite Dean

Be wary of 'Email advice' One of the worst examples of CRM I have ever come across and a view shared by many.


I have started a new post for you.

What does a Captain expect from a FO?