Airport Fire Cover

[30W]

Can any airfield ATCO's shed some light on local emergency procedures for me?

As we are now all aware a domestic firefighters strike is about to take place.

All our licenced airfields hold a CAA licence for operation. Part of that approval will include the airfields emergency plan. Accepted we have the the airport fire service still at work, but we all know the domestic fire service are ALSO part of the airport emergency plan.

Surely that plan is no longer valid, and hence the airport will not be operating in accordance with it's agreed plan, and therefore outside the terms of it's licence?

As ATCO's who have better knowledge of the airfield plans than any of us pilots do, am I barking up a completely wrong alley, or is there some validity in my thought process??

Regards
30W

[radar707]

Not sure about the tems of licence bit, but contingency plans have been drawn up to allow continued operations at the airfields, the ARFFS are the primary response to any incient and will deal with putting out any initial fire that occurs to allow as expeditious evacuation of the aircraft as posible, aftert that it becomes the responsibility of the local authority crews to deal with subsequent search of the aircraft.

[30W]

radar,

Thanks for your reply.

<<the ARFFS are the primary response to any incient and will deal with putting out any initial fire that occurs to allow as expeditious evacuation of the aircraft as posible,>>

no change there, no problem they are all working etc....

<< aftert that it becomes the responsibility of the local authority crews to deal with subsequent search of the aircraft.>>

Well then surely the plan is flawed? They will not be working......

Reagrds
30W

[srs what?]

All Local Authorities have Emergency Plans for any Airports in their area. These emergency plans will be taken into account for all Contingency Plans made by the Local Authorities for the Fire Strikes.

Don't forget also that Retained Firefighters won't be striking and will therefore be available.

[canberra]

airport firemen are trained in how to deal with aircraft firefighting and more importantly rescue from aircraft. would you be happy to hand that over to the local authority? no and neither would i. in the raf supposedly the senior civil fireman is supposed to take over from the senior raf fireman, on virtually all incidents the civvies have down what the raf have told them and im guessing its the same in civvy street.

[Spitoon]

canbera, the same is pretty much true in the civil world. The theory is that the local authority services take over and permit the Airport RFFS to replenish media etc and provide cover again for the airport. Whilst the minimum levels of media and personnel readiness set out in the licence are not available there should be no operations that require fire cover.

In practice, if there is an accident in which people need to be rescued from the wrteckage, it will usually be too late by the time the local authority services get there. If this is not the case, I can't imagine a situation where the two services wouldn't work together (not sure who would be in charge though).

[Greebson]

30w

1: My airport are putting on an extra tender and getting extra crew in overtime (don't know where the tender is coming from)
2: Green Godesses to turn up as local fire service do under the control of a Senior Fire Officer (Civvy)

Point 1 is fact, point 2 is ..............

By the way, just expect a quiet day when airport AFS strike

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but still don't know the answer...

I can only speak for Heathrow but it probably applies at many other places - there are 5 categories of emergency. For the lowest the AFS turns out. For the next 4 the local AFS is backed up by the outside Fire Brigade and other services which head for ATC-determined Rendezvous Points around the airfield. The lowest category for which this procedure applies is a "Full Emergency", which will be declared by ATC for a loss of 50% power, undercarriage problem, any hydraulic problem, etc.

Question: If the outside Fire Service is not available what happens?

[Bright-Ling]

Maybe this is a "Beancounter Risk Analysis".

Cost of closing the airport v Chance of using a non-airport fire crew.

Answers on a postcard

[30W]

Thanks all for your replys.

Heathrow Director, you've hit the nail on the head! The current emergency plans are no longer vaild.

The emergency plan IS part of the aerodrome license (a check of the CAA web site, and downloading of CAP168, 'Licensing of Aerodromes') confirms. If that plan can't be implemented i.e. outside fire service on strike, then the terms of the license are invalid!

Now, a dispensation could be approved, if applied for, on the basis of a new temporary plan to cover lack of outside cover. The point is however that, action must be taken to obtain this, and the new plan published to all required parties (ATC, aerodrome operators etc.....).

How many airfields have?? My local one certainly hasn't (as yet). I appreciate Bright-Ling that yes, it really is a risk analysis thing. But, lord forbid, the dice falls the wrong way, then as things stand, legally in court it could be argued that until new emergency plans are both formally approved and promulgated, that the airfield is technically unlicensed. Any lawyers involved in litigation would have a field day, and towards whom, I'm not sure.....

Cheers
30W

[spekesoftly]

The normal attendance of the 'outside fire service' (and other services - ambulance/police etc) at an Airport emergency, is surely essentially the same as any other call out. It is done based on availability and priority. If there was already a major incident in progress elsewhere, the response to an Airport call out might take longer, whilst crews are redeployed from other fire stations.

During the strikes, the military crews will endeavour to operate on a similar basis, albeit with considerably reduced resources. There is no escaping the reduced cover, whether you are travelling by plane/train/car or whatever.

It would seem that the legal requirement, during the strikes, for Airport emergency plans involving the outside safety services, still applies. My guess is that the regulatory authorities will 'deem' that the military cover enables Airport Authorities to comply with the terms of their licence. :(

[Nogbad the Bad]

Roll over SRG..............it's belly-tickling time again !!!!!!!!!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[slink]

So if the emergency plan is invalid, & the aerodrome licence is invalid - no public transport flights can operate, and with the comment "expect a quiet day when the airport AFS go on strike", it sounds like a good day to take a GA tour around all the major UK airports, as we don't need a licenced field to operate...ever heard "nothing known to conflict, take off at your discretion" on the LHR frequency....

[AlanM]

You wish Slink, you wish!

The slot maybe available - but the landing fees....!!?!?!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Speke said: "The normal attendance of the 'outside fire service' (and other services - ambulance/police etc) at an Airport emergency, is surely essentially the same as any other call out. It is done based on availability and priority. "

I don't know precisely what is involved or how the turn-outs are arranged but from experience I would say that there is definitely a pre-determined attendance and not with just a few odd vehicles showing up. The mass of fire vehicles and ambulances which arrive at the rendezvous point within minutes of an emergency being declared suggest this - and I've watched it hundreds of times at Heathrow.

[spekesoftly]

HD,

Yes, I quite agree with your description of the usual 'mass' turn-out, but even in less troubled times, I doubt the civil fire brigade can always guarantee this. If they were already involved in some other major incident, would they hold back resources, just in case a call came from a nearby Airport?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

You may be right but I'm sure there must be something laid down about outside attendance. What would be the point in sending just one tender? As I said, I've watched many hundreds of emergencies and the turn-out has always appeared to be the same.

I'd like to know what would happen today if there was a wheels-up landing at Heathrow..... Green Goddess??

[controller friendly]

Just got from a reliable source of mine that retained firefighters are also on strike, apart from the 10% that are in a different union.
At our airfield extra fiefighters are being brought in on overtime and they have an extra appliance on, which is all they require. Hope this helps but
Support your Firefighters and Emergency Fire Control Staff
y......£30K NOW!

Because They're Worth It!:D :D

[spekesoftly]

HD,

I don't see how the answer to your question "Green Goddess??", can really be other than "Yes". Wouldn't it be much the same for, say, a motorway pile-up? The military can only send what they've got available.

Having said that, I believe there are some indications that the civil fire brigade might respond to major emergencies, even whilst on strike - but I doubt there's any guarantee.

As an aside, I noticed earlier last night that the Police were using the electronic motorway signs to caution drivers:-

"FIREMENS STRIKE - DRIVE WITH EXTRA CARE"

Let's hope we don't have to resort to putting something similar on the ATIS!! :(

[Hew Jampton]

Just got from a reliable source of mine that retained firefighters are also on strike, apart from the 10% that are in a different union. Not correct. All retained firefighters have their own union which has a no strike policy and they are therefore working normally.

While licensed civil aerodromes are required to have Emergency Orders that include plans for calling out the local authority emergency services, the Aerodrome Category (CAP 168) depends only on the AFS capability. Local authority capability is not considered for the Aerodrome Category.

[Bright-Ling]

Hew....that all makes sense

Do the Airport Authority get billed or have to pay a flat fee for attendances of Full Emergency and above then??

[Hew Jampton]

I don't think they pay at all, except of course through normal business rates.

On rare occasions a local authority appliance and crew can be brought in to augment the AFS to upgrade the Aerodrome Category temporarily but this is premeditated, not an emergency response; in this case the seconded appliance becomes part of the AFS. Presumably this can be on a repayment basis.

[Buster the Bear]

Here, the main reason for the local fire service attending during an emergency, is to provide additional water.

Foam a plenty for a few minutes, then the airport tenders need water to mix, creating foam. Local fire service send pressurised water tenders to provide additional water supplies whilst the airport fire service replenishes locally. One must assume that this has been provided, but the terms of the aerodrome licence means that the local fire service need only to provide a certain local response, any additional is in excess of the CAA minima.

Additional staffing and liasion with the the local emergency services are also provided by the town service.

[niknak]

Controller Friendly - you should choose your friends and your words more carefully, the retained fire service are not on strike, never have been, and it's very unlikely that they ever will be.:rolleyes:

These guys don't do the retained job for the money - less than 50p an hour for being on call, but they face the same risks as the full time brigade members who can't seem to accept that until they are employed by private enterprise, they will not be in a position to negotiate a pay rise which is above the public sector norm'.

Get back to us when you have something sensible to say, rather than the rantings of a neanderthol.

[controller friendly]

HEW & NIKNAK

APOLOGY NOW PLEASE! I come from a part of the country where retained firefighters are most definately on strike. I can say this with authority because I am MARRIED TO ONE! And count many others as good friends. The RFU are not on strike but as 90% of retained firefighters are in the FBU, they are, therefore, on strike!!
As many of the appliances that attend our airfield are retained ones, when the strike is on we also have no back up cover apart from what I already mentioned.
So don't slag me off unless you are sure of your facts. And NIK, completely uncalled for to be so insulting.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Hew Jampton]

"I come from a part of the country" probably says it all. In general, national, terms you are totally incorrect but I can't be bothered to continue with you. Red caution at the bottom of the page?

30W - you too are totally incorrect about aerodrome licensing. In respect of your 13/11 posting about aerodromes becoming unlicensed, how many did become so during the recent strike? Red words apply to you too?

[srs what?]

All the Retained Firemen I know are not on strike and not members of the FBU but I don't know about nationally. Certainly in this county there aren't any retained Fire Stations on strike.

[controller friendly]

Hew

Can't be bothered well I can!

FACT: 18000 Retained Firefighters in the UK
FACT: 16000 FBU Members....and growing!
FACT: Remaining 2000 approx RFU Members and non union Members.
FACT: One thing the strike has achieved is strengthen the FBU and increased its membership.

Don't believe me cause obviously you won't, check out www.fbu.org.uk
Hew(Brew, Barney Magrew.......) are you sure you're not the leader of the RFU in disguise.......?

Regards
cf
:rolleyes: :D :D

[Alert_5]

Controller friendly is absolutely right!!

The majority of retained firefighters are FBU and therefore are on strike.

[Cuddles]

Are the BAA firemen / security / TGWU members still going out next Thursday? What will happen here, as the TGWU strike coincides with the planned FBU one.

Going to be a quiet day I think.

And

What will happen if an oil drum fire at a picket line gets out of control?:D

Only one of the above is a serious question.

[spekesoftly]

If the AFS goes on strike at any Airport, public transport flights have to be suspended - Manchester was one example - back in the 80s. Some cargo and private flights might be able to continue to operate from such affected Airports. As has been mentioned before, the Airport Fire category is not dependant on the outside fire service. In this (legal) respect, the coinciding of both Airport and FBU strikes is academic - but permitted operators would obviously be wise to consider the additional potential risk of flying to/from an Airport where the only available fire cover was provided by the thinly spread military. My guess is that Airport Authorities (The BAA on this occasion) may also consider closing their Airports to all flights, due to the prevailing circumstances.