Airport Fire Cover
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Airport Fire Cover
Can any airfield ATCO's shed some light on local emergency procedures for me?
As we are now all aware a domestic firefighters strike is about to take place.
All our licenced airfields hold a CAA licence for operation. Part of that approval will include the airfields emergency plan. Accepted we have the the airport fire service still at work, but we all know the domestic fire service are ALSO part of the airport emergency plan.
Surely that plan is no longer valid, and hence the airport will not be operating in accordance with it's agreed plan, and therefore outside the terms of it's licence?
As ATCO's who have better knowledge of the airfield plans than any of us pilots do, am I barking up a completely wrong alley, or is there some validity in my thought process??
Regards
30W
As we are now all aware a domestic firefighters strike is about to take place.
All our licenced airfields hold a CAA licence for operation. Part of that approval will include the airfields emergency plan. Accepted we have the the airport fire service still at work, but we all know the domestic fire service are ALSO part of the airport emergency plan.
Surely that plan is no longer valid, and hence the airport will not be operating in accordance with it's agreed plan, and therefore outside the terms of it's licence?
As ATCO's who have better knowledge of the airfield plans than any of us pilots do, am I barking up a completely wrong alley, or is there some validity in my thought process??
Regards
30W
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Not sure about the tems of licence bit, but contingency plans have been drawn up to allow continued operations at the airfields, the ARFFS are the primary response to any incient and will deal with putting out any initial fire that occurs to allow as expeditious evacuation of the aircraft as posible, aftert that it becomes the responsibility of the local authority crews to deal with subsequent search of the aircraft.
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radar,
Thanks for your reply.
<<the ARFFS are the primary response to any incient and will deal with putting out any initial fire that occurs to allow as expeditious evacuation of the aircraft as posible,>>
no change there, no problem they are all working etc....
<< aftert that it becomes the responsibility of the local authority crews to deal with subsequent search of the aircraft.>>
Well then surely the plan is flawed? They will not be working......
Reagrds
30W
Thanks for your reply.
<<the ARFFS are the primary response to any incient and will deal with putting out any initial fire that occurs to allow as expeditious evacuation of the aircraft as posible,>>
no change there, no problem they are all working etc....
<< aftert that it becomes the responsibility of the local authority crews to deal with subsequent search of the aircraft.>>
Well then surely the plan is flawed? They will not be working......
Reagrds
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All Local Authorities have Emergency Plans for any Airports in their area. These emergency plans will be taken into account for all Contingency Plans made by the Local Authorities for the Fire Strikes.
Don't forget also that Retained Firefighters won't be striking and will therefore be available.
Don't forget also that Retained Firefighters won't be striking and will therefore be available.
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airport firemen are trained in how to deal with aircraft firefighting and more importantly rescue from aircraft. would you be happy to hand that over to the local authority? no and neither would i. in the raf supposedly the senior civil fireman is supposed to take over from the senior raf fireman, on virtually all incidents the civvies have down what the raf have told them and im guessing its the same in civvy street.
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canbera, the same is pretty much true in the civil world. The theory is that the local authority services take over and permit the Airport RFFS to replenish media etc and provide cover again for the airport. Whilst the minimum levels of media and personnel readiness set out in the licence are not available there should be no operations that require fire cover.
In practice, if there is an accident in which people need to be rescued from the wrteckage, it will usually be too late by the time the local authority services get there. If this is not the case, I can't imagine a situation where the two services wouldn't work together (not sure who would be in charge though).
In practice, if there is an accident in which people need to be rescued from the wrteckage, it will usually be too late by the time the local authority services get there. If this is not the case, I can't imagine a situation where the two services wouldn't work together (not sure who would be in charge though).
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30w
1: My airport are putting on an extra tender and getting extra crew in overtime (don't know where the tender is coming from)
2: Green Godesses to turn up as local fire service do under the control of a Senior Fire Officer (Civvy)
Point 1 is fact, point 2 is ..............
By the way, just expect a quiet day when airport AFS strike
1: My airport are putting on an extra tender and getting extra crew in overtime (don't know where the tender is coming from)
2: Green Godesses to turn up as local fire service do under the control of a Senior Fire Officer (Civvy)
Point 1 is fact, point 2 is ..............
By the way, just expect a quiet day when airport AFS strike
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I've mentioned this elsewhere, but still don't know the answer...
I can only speak for Heathrow but it probably applies at many other places - there are 5 categories of emergency. For the lowest the AFS turns out. For the next 4 the local AFS is backed up by the outside Fire Brigade and other services which head for ATC-determined Rendezvous Points around the airfield. The lowest category for which this procedure applies is a "Full Emergency", which will be declared by ATC for a loss of 50% power, undercarriage problem, any hydraulic problem, etc.
Question: If the outside Fire Service is not available what happens?
I can only speak for Heathrow but it probably applies at many other places - there are 5 categories of emergency. For the lowest the AFS turns out. For the next 4 the local AFS is backed up by the outside Fire Brigade and other services which head for ATC-determined Rendezvous Points around the airfield. The lowest category for which this procedure applies is a "Full Emergency", which will be declared by ATC for a loss of 50% power, undercarriage problem, any hydraulic problem, etc.
Question: If the outside Fire Service is not available what happens?
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Thanks all for your replys.
Heathrow Director, you've hit the nail on the head! The current emergency plans are no longer vaild.
The emergency plan IS part of the aerodrome license (a check of the CAA web site, and downloading of CAP168, 'Licensing of Aerodromes') confirms. If that plan can't be implemented i.e. outside fire service on strike, then the terms of the license are invalid!
Now, a dispensation could be approved, if applied for, on the basis of a new temporary plan to cover lack of outside cover. The point is however that, action must be taken to obtain this, and the new plan published to all required parties (ATC, aerodrome operators etc.....).
How many airfields have?? My local one certainly hasn't (as yet). I appreciate Bright-Ling that yes, it really is a risk analysis thing. But, lord forbid, the dice falls the wrong way, then as things stand, legally in court it could be argued that until new emergency plans are both formally approved and promulgated, that the airfield is technically unlicensed. Any lawyers involved in litigation would have a field day, and towards whom, I'm not sure.....
Cheers
30W
Heathrow Director, you've hit the nail on the head! The current emergency plans are no longer vaild.
The emergency plan IS part of the aerodrome license (a check of the CAA web site, and downloading of CAP168, 'Licensing of Aerodromes') confirms. If that plan can't be implemented i.e. outside fire service on strike, then the terms of the license are invalid!
Now, a dispensation could be approved, if applied for, on the basis of a new temporary plan to cover lack of outside cover. The point is however that, action must be taken to obtain this, and the new plan published to all required parties (ATC, aerodrome operators etc.....).
How many airfields have?? My local one certainly hasn't (as yet). I appreciate Bright-Ling that yes, it really is a risk analysis thing. But, lord forbid, the dice falls the wrong way, then as things stand, legally in court it could be argued that until new emergency plans are both formally approved and promulgated, that the airfield is technically unlicensed. Any lawyers involved in litigation would have a field day, and towards whom, I'm not sure.....
Cheers
30W
The normal attendance of the 'outside fire service' (and other services - ambulance/police etc) at an Airport emergency, is surely essentially the same as any other call out. It is done based on availability and priority. If there was already a major incident in progress elsewhere, the response to an Airport call out might take longer, whilst crews are redeployed from other fire stations.
During the strikes, the military crews will endeavour to operate on a similar basis, albeit with considerably reduced resources. There is no escaping the reduced cover, whether you are travelling by plane/train/car or whatever.
It would seem that the legal requirement, during the strikes, for Airport emergency plans involving the outside safety services, still applies. My guess is that the regulatory authorities will 'deem' that the military cover enables Airport Authorities to comply with the terms of their licence.
During the strikes, the military crews will endeavour to operate on a similar basis, albeit with considerably reduced resources. There is no escaping the reduced cover, whether you are travelling by plane/train/car or whatever.
It would seem that the legal requirement, during the strikes, for Airport emergency plans involving the outside safety services, still applies. My guess is that the regulatory authorities will 'deem' that the military cover enables Airport Authorities to comply with the terms of their licence.
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So if the emergency plan is invalid, & the aerodrome licence is invalid - no public transport flights can operate, and with the comment "expect a quiet day when the airport AFS go on strike", it sounds like a good day to take a GA tour around all the major UK airports, as we don't need a licenced field to operate...ever heard "nothing known to conflict, take off at your discretion" on the LHR frequency....
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Speke said: "The normal attendance of the 'outside fire service' (and other services - ambulance/police etc) at an Airport emergency, is surely essentially the same as any other call out. It is done based on availability and priority. "
I don't know precisely what is involved or how the turn-outs are arranged but from experience I would say that there is definitely a pre-determined attendance and not with just a few odd vehicles showing up. The mass of fire vehicles and ambulances which arrive at the rendezvous point within minutes of an emergency being declared suggest this - and I've watched it hundreds of times at Heathrow.
I don't know precisely what is involved or how the turn-outs are arranged but from experience I would say that there is definitely a pre-determined attendance and not with just a few odd vehicles showing up. The mass of fire vehicles and ambulances which arrive at the rendezvous point within minutes of an emergency being declared suggest this - and I've watched it hundreds of times at Heathrow.
HD,
Yes, I quite agree with your description of the usual 'mass' turn-out, but even in less troubled times, I doubt the civil fire brigade can always guarantee this. If they were already involved in some other major incident, would they hold back resources, just in case a call came from a nearby Airport?
Yes, I quite agree with your description of the usual 'mass' turn-out, but even in less troubled times, I doubt the civil fire brigade can always guarantee this. If they were already involved in some other major incident, would they hold back resources, just in case a call came from a nearby Airport?
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You may be right but I'm sure there must be something laid down about outside attendance. What would be the point in sending just one tender? As I said, I've watched many hundreds of emergencies and the turn-out has always appeared to be the same.
I'd like to know what would happen today if there was a wheels-up landing at Heathrow..... Green Goddess??
I'd like to know what would happen today if there was a wheels-up landing at Heathrow..... Green Goddess??
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Just got from a reliable source of mine that retained firefighters are also on strike, apart from the 10% that are in a different union.
At our airfield extra fiefighters are being brought in on overtime and they have an extra appliance on, which is all they require. Hope this helps but
Support your Firefighters and Emergency Fire Control Staff
y......£30K NOW!
Because They're Worth It!
At our airfield extra fiefighters are being brought in on overtime and they have an extra appliance on, which is all they require. Hope this helps but
Support your Firefighters and Emergency Fire Control Staff
y......£30K NOW!
Because They're Worth It!
HD,
I don't see how the answer to your question "Green Goddess??", can really be other than "Yes". Wouldn't it be much the same for, say, a motorway pile-up? The military can only send what they've got available.
Having said that, I believe there are some indications that the civil fire brigade might respond to major emergencies, even whilst on strike - but I doubt there's any guarantee.
As an aside, I noticed earlier last night that the Police were using the electronic motorway signs to caution drivers:-
"FIREMENS STRIKE - DRIVE WITH EXTRA CARE"
Let's hope we don't have to resort to putting something similar on the ATIS!!
I don't see how the answer to your question "Green Goddess??", can really be other than "Yes". Wouldn't it be much the same for, say, a motorway pile-up? The military can only send what they've got available.
Having said that, I believe there are some indications that the civil fire brigade might respond to major emergencies, even whilst on strike - but I doubt there's any guarantee.
As an aside, I noticed earlier last night that the Police were using the electronic motorway signs to caution drivers:-
"FIREMENS STRIKE - DRIVE WITH EXTRA CARE"
Let's hope we don't have to resort to putting something similar on the ATIS!!
Just got from a reliable source of mine that retained firefighters are also on strike, apart from the 10% that are in a different union.
While licensed civil aerodromes are required to have Emergency Orders that include plans for calling out the local authority emergency services, the Aerodrome Category (CAP 168) depends only on the AFS capability. Local authority capability is not considered for the Aerodrome Category.