EASYJET to scrap 6-on 3-off roster? [Archive]

Atlantic-Coast

13th Nov 2002, 18:24

Heard of linebidding?
Soutwest airlines has min 14 days off every month and they still fly on the average over 80 block hrs. The best lines are 20 days off a month.
Same goes with most US carriers .
I have flown on both sides and the schedules stinks over here i Europe.
How do you do it? The management contols the amount of aircraft and pilots , and the pilots contol the schedule.
I heard that SAS is going for it!
So there you go fellow skylickers . Vote for linebidding!

SOPS

13th Nov 2002, 20:48

What about 4 on 3 off, now we are talking

Engee73

13th Nov 2002, 21:16

Atlantic Coast;

Couple of problems over here.

1. Different FTL scheme.

2. Pilots will not join the Union as it won't do anything for them - therefore a self fulfiling prophecy. Also prefer to saver a few union dues rather than benefit from improved T's and C's.

3. Management that thinks only in the short term. I.e. lets build a great airline this week, then take the money and run. I can't see RDW (easyJet CEO) here when most of the others are still working out their bonds.

4,5,6 etc.

:confused:

johntrav69

13th Nov 2002, 22:10

Go system works really well. None of these taxi drives you guys seem to be doing and no sectors followed by airport standby. What the hell is that about. Lets go home and see the family for gods sake. We must keep the 2 ROFF days a month which fixes all last minute problems and preserves the summer leave from using for weddings/parties etc. We work hard but better to run out of flying hours than duty hours any day!!
Crewing help me so I'm always ready to help crewing!!
6 on 3 off to rigid for me.

Pilt-downMan

13th Nov 2002, 23:32

DAYS IN YEAR LEAVE AVAILABLE DAYS NO. OF BLOCKS WORKING DAYS FLYING HRS PER DAY 850 PER YR
5 & 3
364 30 334 41.75 208.75 4.07

6 & 3
364 30 334 37.11 222.67 3.82

4 & 4
364 30 334 41.75 167.00 5.09

5&3 VERSES 6&3 EQUALS 13.92 EXTRA DAYS OFF PER YEAR
WITH 13 28 DAY ROSTERS IN YEAR EQUIVALENT TO APPROX. 1 EXTRA DAY OFF PER ROSTER
I'm not sure how the figures above will be displayed on Pprune but the sums show that 5&3 verses 6&3 results in just 14 extra days off a year, or approx. one per roster.Therefore to achieve 850 flying hours a year would require just 15 mins extra per day, just 3 times round the hold! or one extra sector to EDI every 5 days.

I've worked a 6&3 roster and although 3 days off generally gives a steely blade time to recover, I found that working 6 on all the time causes fatigue in the long term.
Therefore 5&3 would get my vote, it would still provide the roster stability that people seem to value in Easyjet and deliver an environment where tiredness/fatigue would hopefully be reduced such that we would also achieve a better quality of life.

The Southwest/American models sound even better of course........did I just see a pig on finals!!!!

Take care

batty

14th Nov 2002, 07:07

I work for the opposition, Ryanair.

We do the 5 on 3 off roster and its great, and believe me we still fly the max hours each year.

I know at the end of day 5 I am tired , I wouldnt lke to do the sixth day each week.

springbok449

14th Nov 2002, 12:19

I think there will be quite a few people working for the opposition soon!!
Anyway, on the subject of rosters I think that the principal of this 6 on 3 off was great but it has been twisted by the company so most of the time you end up doing 7 on 2 off!
6 on 3 off (i mean 7 on 2 off) is just too tiring the way that we're flying 5 on 3 off would do it or better 6 on 4 off but just like the pay review I think that we're day dreaming!!
When easy bought GO the managment promised us that they were going to bring in the best of both worlds so please no more broken promises and bring the chap from Go.

FlapsOne

14th Nov 2002, 13:59

springbok449

I thought it had already been announced that the 'chap from GO' had got the job as Rostering Manager and would be taking up his post early in the new year.

I am as peed off as anyone about

a. The delay in resolving the pay review.

b. The complete lack of info about the discussions that have already taken place.

c. The incessant rumour mongering from all sides.

d. The apparent blocking of the realease of info by management.

This latest rumour, and that's what it is as far as I can tell, about changes to the 6/3 (7/2?) system is adding fuel to the fire.

Is the 'leaking' of this info (whether true or false) a deliberate act by someone wth a hidden agenda somwhere? Is this 'proposal' now part of the current negotiations? How can any of us, but particularly those with families, attempt to arrange a family holiday if we do not know the intended working pattern for next year?

Surely this cannot drag on for much longer now but, until some sort of announcement is made, can we at least try to limit the talk to fact rather than unattributable rumour?

workerant

15th Nov 2002, 07:21

A bit too 'conspiracy theory' there FlapsOne. If you ask rostering they will tell you that they don't have enough flexibilty in the 6 on 3 off and it's as simple as that. It's all to do with using the Carmen system in conjunction with AIMS, which they hope to have perfected by April. I believe they are looking at set blocks of working days i.e. 5 on 3 off, 6 on 2 off, 4 on 2 off. How this will work I'm not too sure but there maybe a way of planning ahead. With this also comes 3 or 4 requested days off a month. I would imagine that this is closer to how GO operate and may have something to do with Nick taking up his new post. It may not be all bad but we'll have to wait and see.

FlapsOne

15th Nov 2002, 09:19

workerant

I didn't mean anything as sinister. Poor choice of words by me perhaps.

I was simply trying to make the point that it seems some people will continue to post negative rumour after negative rumour, often based on pure fantasy, just to try and illicit a militant response from the readership.

If one rumour is dispelled, they just move on to something else equally emotive. It's often the same names over and over again.

We've waited this long, let's just sit it out until a deal is offered, think it through, vote on it and take it from there.

Any thoughts that Al Quaeda are involved in the discussions are, of course, purely rumour.

Zulu

15th Nov 2002, 10:19

Atlantic-Coast,

Please could you explain in a bit more detail exactly how "line-bidding" works?

I'd much rather work the SouthWest system ("work hard, play hard") and get my 80 hours done in 14 days a month, not the 20 it takes at the moment. But despite EZY/GOE all claiming to be Southwest, this never seems to extend to the rostering. Or the pay and conditions for that matter.

Z

outofsynch

15th Nov 2002, 11:55

Well, I think anyone snivelling about losing a fixed 6/3 pattern where the company changes shifts frequently at will, against a slightly looser shift pattern, but one that is set in concrete (99% of the time) from the moment the roster is published, is very short sighted and selfish.

Why does anyone need to 'calaculate their days off this time next year to plan ahaead, when the Go rostering system includes requested days off, which are almost always accommodated.

I dont want to pick a fight, but I think a few people are being somewhat pig headed over a minor issue.

Why isnt this discussuion in the company forum anyway?

Stan Woolley

15th Nov 2002, 12:46

Outof synch

Nice attitude!

When you have actually worked for Easyjet you might appreciate why people are concerned. How are you to know what will replace it, because here promises and agreements mean nothing.

You did pick a fight, and the reason is that a great many pilots do not consider this a 'minor issue' !

And I see you're the posting police too, nice.:rolleyes:

Zico

15th Nov 2002, 13:19

Few Cloudy,
SAS still has the 5 on 4 off system. Some (most) work that system, others work in a flex group. Same amount of days off in both groups of course. All those commuting to work are of course thrilled with the 5/4 system, but in the current situation at SAS (read deep sh**), one of the first things that SAS wants thrown out the window, is the 5/4 system. Too inflexible they say.
Then the pilots came up with the linebidding thing, and this is for

Atlantic Coast too,

A linebidding system called OPUS. I haven´t seen a pilot not willing to work in that system, but SAS hasn´t decided nothing yet on linebidding. We want it, but they don´t know if they´ll let us have it yet. Working on it!

khasabman

15th Nov 2002, 14:48

outofsync........please do not post about matters of which you obviously have no experience . The 6/3 system is the ONLY bright light in the otherwise murky system under which we have to work. If that is lost you too will be the loser in the long run. I am sure that your rostering chap is as good as you all say however he can only work with the resources made available to him.

southern softy

15th Nov 2002, 15:09

out of sync, you are excellent management material, for easyjet.(not a compliment), and you are what your name suggests

ojay

15th Nov 2002, 16:15

Out of sync-thank you for introducing some new,interesting words into this forum.I am going to look up 'calaculate','discussuion' and 'ahaead'.You certainly have management levels of literacy or have you been drinking?
Cheers.

Gypsy

15th Nov 2002, 18:03

And all that sums to the fact that the guys from Go have no idea of what they are getting into

Tiscali

15th Nov 2002, 23:30

outofsynch,

You clearly have no idea about the way things are currently running in easyJet - perhaps you should get a grown-up to check your posts in future.

You, my friend, are in for a major shock when you become an employee of this organisation!! That will wipe the smug, arrogant grin off your face.

Goforfun

16th Nov 2002, 07:28

"And all that sums to the fact that the guys from Go have no idea of what they are getting into"........

Is life really that bad in EZY? Surely things will get better?

kriskross

16th Nov 2002, 09:08

Goforfun,

One can but hope.....

outofsynch

16th Nov 2002, 15:00

Well, I certainly livened up the discussion didn’t I ?? :p

I do apologise to all, because I didn’t want to appear smug or arrogant.

The view I was unsuccessfully trying to promote, was that with NW becoming rostering manager, then that it is likely to be the end of the eJ rostering philosophy as it is/was. I believe he has already stated in the negotiations, that the 6/3 system just doesn’t work efficiently. Perhaps that is why the eJ rostering record is so bad?

From my point of view, I know how the Go system has worked, and that it has been the biggest reason that Go hasn’t had the pilot turnover that eJ has had. It seems to work very well, and I have never heard anyone complain about it.

I agree wholeheartedly, that I know nothing about what you guys have tolerated for so long, apart from what has been said on forums here. I think I do understand though, just how pisssed off you are, and no, I don’t want to experience that for myself!!!

Please don’t flame me. I was proved very wrong in the discussion about FLIDRAS in eJ. You may well prove me wrong this time too! But also, please believe that a new rostering system, MAY prove very successful, and satisfying for us all, even without the 6/3 pattern.

Moonraker One

16th Nov 2002, 15:34

Our friend at Go has missed the point that it is the easyJet business model that is to adopted by the new easyJet.
So whoever does the roster will already have his hands tied with little room for original thought. I believe that the crewing ratio and aircraft utilisation rate along with the policy of keeping the working week as long as possible will ensure that the ace roster man from go will have little room for creativity. He can only produce a crew friendly roster if he is given the correct resources. At the moment everything is being cut to save money and add to the bottom line. easyJet are very unlikely to start spending to keep crews happy or to uphold the Go former head of rosterings reputation.
I think the former Go crews are going to have a hard lesson to learn.

Commando

16th Nov 2002, 17:05

I think it goes a bit further than rostering patterns. It boils down to utilisation. easyJet seem to focus on aircraft utilisation whereas Go focussed (past tense!) on crew uitilisation. Certainly the later is best for crew life styles! easyJet operate night flights, mulit-day "trips", night stops - you can't get the roster stability with this kind of operation with out being well over crewed (my humbe opinion as a pilot!).

Be interesting to see which philosophy is more profitable. From looking at the document issued to shareholders when easyJet was buying Go it seems the easyJet way makes more money.

outofsynch

16th Nov 2002, 17:53

I dont believe I have missed any point.

I also dont believe that Go has or had a higher crew/acft ratio than easyJet. Which ever way you look at it, you cant use any pilot for more that 900 hours each year. Can you? The 'Go model' is aimed at 880hour per year, so you cant get any more efficient than that.

The idea that the 'old' easyJet business model is indeed that for the 'new eJ, leaves me astounded; as the new eJ management have already agreed to the 'Go style' crewing based schedule for next summer. As I was told, eJ employed an independant advisor to answer this summers crewing disaster. They said the 'Go model' was best.

If the Go company was so poorly run and 'inefficient', then why did eJ shareholders pay £12.00 per share to buy Go, when their own were worth about a third of that? :confused:

FlapsOne

16th Nov 2002, 18:24

You have certainly missed the point about share prices. You can't compare them 1 for 1. It depends entirely on how many are issued.

Billy Whizz

16th Nov 2002, 19:13

To confirm what has already been said about about the shocking rostering at Easy, I have just recieved my December roster.

As always there is a week of 7 on, 2 off. (My 12th such week since April), and in that week of 7 consecutive days, I have one duty day of 14 hours 20 mins immediately followed by a duty day of 11 hours 10 mins,(A total of 9 sectors, one of which is positioning). I did not get a requested day off which was only the second one applied for this year, and I did not get first choice of days off over the holiday period.

I do know where sympathy is found in a dictionary! and NW from Go may be able to walk on water, but he has a bag of nails to sort out and I can see him packing it in within 6 months due to frustration. Easy management will not give him any room to manoevre, so come to Easy with your eyes open chaps.

noflare

16th Nov 2002, 20:02

Well if it is as bleak as you EZY guys make out I think Ill just shoot myself now.

Should we not at least let NW have a try at sorting it out before we condem it as a hopeless case ?
It may be the case that you guys are correct and nothing will change, but let us at least give it a chance ?
:(

Moonraker One

16th Nov 2002, 20:43

OUTOFSNCH

Just because easyJet management have agreed that something is a good idea does not mean that they will do it. If it is something that could improve the well being of crews then it will certainly be of a low priority.
As for the takeover perhaps it was smother Go before it put easyJet out of business.

Goforfun

16th Nov 2002, 21:58

NW will only be as good as he is, IF he is given the resources he has at Go.

I wish easyJet would try e-mailing me! Rather than posting crap 1st class letters through the post- from some idiot called pepsi cole(a).

For gawds sake!

(Babs- Please start another!)

Engee73

16th Nov 2002, 23:45

Go guys.

What you need to realise is that at easyJet there is a need to ensure that we are rostered for maximum duty not flying hours. There is also no max. duty day and at amy moment you can be sent off for a duty including a night and day stop without notice.

NW will not be given any allowances to make 'lifestyle' decisions, instead he will be asked to sit crews in airports from 5am finishes to wait for the first flight to pax back to their home base to save on hotel bills after the commercial dept. has made a change that meant the co. is overcrewed in one particular base. take LPL cabin crew the moment for example.

There is and has never been any commmitment to reasonableness and the current pay negotiation is testament to same.

A rostering clerk is unlikely to have any ability to change the situation and I have little hope that he wil be given the resources. Not only that but the culture has developed where the crewing dept. don't see your roster as having anything to do with the way your month might go. I have arrived to work and been put on airport standby after a completing 2 sectors where there was no chance of operating while crewing decided wheter or not we might be used, for > 2 hours.

Lapsus linguae

17th Nov 2002, 09:49

December roster has 7 days straight included, no flexi days, it is already here! Seems the workers have generously donated the a company an extra days work! They are good at informing the troops.

Jet Man

17th Nov 2002, 10:28

Didn't rostering blank out most of December from the 6/3 pattern and make "no promises"? I thought that being on the Winter schedule that things would ease off a bit so it would be OK - I haven't seen my Dec roster yet.

outofsynch
Don't take issues mentioned here so personally. We're all in the same boat now. I had a "discussion" with a mate of mine (ex Go - now ej) the other day along similar lines - We didn't get anywhere!

I don't think that easyJet pilots would like anything more than stable rosters (maybe a 40% payrise!) like Go used to have but I don't think it's going to happen overnight. There are other issues that are p1ssing off "old" ej pilots at moment. Think back to April this year - I think most of our crews were happy and morale was high!

Commando

17th Nov 2002, 10:32

Be interesting to run a poll of all F/D and C/C in easy to see who they'd rather have running the airline RW or BC?
Not our choice unfortunately!

kriskross

17th Nov 2002, 10:50

It is all very well saying that you cannot work more than 900 hours in a year, but that only refers to flying. In fact you can work over 2000 hours in a year - duty hours - and this is where EZY and GO differ in their crew utilisations - EZY maximise crew usage - high duty hours - Go maximised aircraft utilisation.

I believe that Go crews actually flew more hours in a twelve month than EZY but EZY used many more duty hours - positioning, airport standby, home standby etc.

Goforfun

17th Nov 2002, 11:28

People at Go wont put up with crap roster! We are to used to having it good.

It's up to easyJet to pull out the stops- let NW do his job. Else I for one am off.

Engee73

17th Nov 2002, 11:39

All the best then. :)

Gypsy

17th Nov 2002, 12:19

I hear lots of good things about Nick and welcome his arrival, however I would not expect him to be allowed to make strategic decisions. Just wait for next summers roster and see if the night ATH, PMI, AGP etc etc have disappeared - I bet they'll still be there (and more of them so that you GO chappies can join in) but with bells on and now we can all look forward to doing them without any hot food - can't wait! Ryans pay their pilots more and make bigger profits but don't do night flights so why do we need to do them!

I haven't seen any changes as a result of the consultant brought in after the summer shambes and experience shows that whenever the whatsit hits the fan eJ run to a consultant but once the storms over its back to ops normal.

Fact is that the problem in eJ starts at the top because it is there that the dislike and animosity to pilots starts. Nothing will be allowed to stand in the way of the even bigger rewards which in recognition of hard work, everyone (except pilots and cc) will be entitled to.

Muzza

17th Nov 2002, 13:34

Some good points here, certainly the most important being those which identify the constraints which will be applied by senior management to the NMC, Rostering, and Day to Day crewing managers.

In the past those of us from the "old easyjet" have had to put up with a continual torrent of b/s that comes from the "Orange Castle" regarding "people come first", "pilot lifestyle matters", "rostering stability has priority in our thinking" etc etc.

In the background we have had a CEO who refuses point blank to have any kind of a rostering / working agreement. He did condescend to have a "Crew Contribution policy" which basically meant we will stick to the roster until there is a managment balls up, ( deicing and Carmen come to mind), and then all arrangements are thrown out the window. Flight crews will be expected to pick up the pieces regardless of any personal commitments etc. This has happened many, many times. The last noteworthy slap in the face on this subject was our Rostering Manager (not) JS, throwing the CCP out of the window in mid summer when the pressure went on, without any consultation with flight deck or cabin crew reps. Anybody who believes that JS or any other manager in easyJet has the authority to make such decisions is dreaming. Any and all decisions are made by one person only.

For those "old Go" people who may not know, our CEO worked for Air New Zealand in the past. This organisations management, was described by Chief Justice Mahon in his summing up of the Mount Erubus DC10 disaster, as issuing, quote, "an orchestrated litany of lies", unquote, in the defence of its actions that led to this disaster.

Perhaps, just perhaps, it was this environment, which has led to the situation we have in eJ now, where no agreement is honoured. This most importantly affects those instructions that are currently being issued to NW and others, coming in from the "old Go", about the style of rostering which will be acceptable. These instructions, however good they may appear at the moment, will not be binding. They will be changed to suit the management, at short notice, regardless of the impact on flight crews, in their never ending quest for the bottom line. (read here lining their pockets).

As a group of pilots we must, repeat must, have a signed, sealed, inviolate rostering agreement, in place, before intergration takes place.

Moonraker One

17th Nov 2002, 14:02

MUZZA

:) Strongly agree with your last post.:cool:

BTB

19th Nov 2002, 01:23

My issued rosters at ez have been pretty good for a a good time now; unfortunately, during the summer they were horribly disrupted by the now over-covered problems. The crewing people had to sort out the mess cause by totally unrealistic planning. Now the cards have been shuffled and we have a new and highly respected rostering manager, but the problem has been shuffled sideways into crewing. I wonder if the excellent rapport I have had for a long time with that department will suffer as a consequence? PS not a single change to my roster yet this month apart from due weather.

PS Just in from my last day of the six; it`s 2.25. On my day off. Roll on the death of the awful flexi-day!:rolleyes:

HARRY GREYHOUND

19th Nov 2002, 10:55

Apparently Channex received over 400 applications mostly Easyjet.My interview day they were all easyjet,and said they would all leaveto join Channex even if it did mean they would be almost 10k worse off.Are things really that bad at Easy?

chequesplease

19th Nov 2002, 15:36

BTB
You must be a skipper because as a Luton F/O my roster resembles a war zone with all the changes. Changes ranging from early morning SBY (first one in 5 months) "stand down at 8am to do the night Athens" to making a last minute guest appearance for 2 days in Gatwick. Last week 5 changes in 1 day!! The company appear to want 24 hour 6/7 day useage or option to use, standing down at an early hour to then do the night Athens does nothing for my family/social arrangements not to mention my body clock, try running that change past somebody in Orange Porta-Land! I would like to see some sort of roster stability but unfortunetly for me personally not a great deal has changed since those heady days of summer.
NW do your thing but I think your hands will be tied tighter than you think, Go guys beware!:mad:

BTB

19th Nov 2002, 16:57

Cheques Please: You have to remember that the idiot that used to run our rosters is now the idiot in charge of crewing. This particular idiot has refused to talk to me on a recorded phone; I will not speak to him on an unrecorded phone. What has he to hide? I submit that for the forseable future our rosters will be fine, but day-to day crewing may be bobbins. Yes I am a skipper, and have a great relationship with our rosterers and crewing because I believe in the company and care about people, and will help out if I can. Have you ever been in NMC when things have gone to ratchet and crewing have had to sort out the mess originally caused by diabolical rostering? :confused:

jumpseater

19th Nov 2002, 17:31

out of, have a look at the flying programme the 'separate' companies fly before we join up. The GO programme has bigger buffers in the programme for aircraft swaps and you fly less sectors a day approx 180 vs eazy's 290ish, with a not-dissimilar number of aircraft. Thus the eazy machines are operated on a more frequent basis, and if the wheels come off the programme, in general terms it's easier to put the GO one back together, hence less disruption of schedules and crew hours etc. I expect easy's system makes more money, coz there are more bums on seats each day too.

khasabman

20th Nov 2002, 09:49

BTB. Record the conversation from your end !

FlapsOne

20th Nov 2002, 10:47

Just remember if you are recording a telephone conversation you must, BY LAW, inform the other person. That's why the EZ exchange message states the fact when you first connect.

Most telephone recorders also emit a beep every 10 secs or so. I have a feeling this might be reqired by law also, but I'm not 100% sure.

hotnhi

20th Nov 2002, 11:27

Well when I originally posted the question I didn't expect so many replies!

To those of you thinking of moving on remember that the grass is not always quite as green as it may first seem.

I was told PERSONALLY by my AME that he had been approached by a senior management type from Ryanair to see if he and his partner wanted to do ALL their pilots Class 1 medicals, for half price! They declined. They weren't too impressed that RYANAIR (quote) "DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WELFARE OF THEIR PILOTS,SO LONG AS THEY GET THE PIECE OF PAPER".

I always discourage people from working for and flying with Ryanair. It is my opinion (to which I am entitled) that Ryanair will have a fatal accident, and I don't want my friends or family on board when it happens.