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OCC
2nd Nov 2002, 16:56
Just heard on the TV3 News that a EuroCeltic aircraft skip off the runway at Sligo (EISG / SXL) and the forward part of the aircraft went into the sea.
No injuries to passengers or crew reported thank god.

Reported 50 passengers onboard plus crew.

Brgds

OCC

macroman
2nd Nov 2002, 17:24
Grapevine has it that it overshot the runway by something like 20 feet and ended up with the nose in the drink and the tail in the air.

Topcover
2nd Nov 2002, 17:31
Additional news reports have said that the aircraft had 36 passengers on board and went off the runway by "10-15 feet" ending up with the nose in the water and the tail in the air.
The news reported that weather conditions in the area at the time were described as "difficult".

I presume that this is a F27 as they normally use a F27 on the Dublin/Silgo.Euroceltic have a F50 wet leased in from Newair at the moment operating Donegal/Dublin ,Dublin/Waterford and Waterford/Luton.

Delighted to hear that all on board are o.k.

Kalium Chloride
2nd Nov 2002, 17:50
Leaves on the runway, I'll bet :rolleyes:

hobie
2nd Nov 2002, 19:23
there's a good bit of water around the strip ....... have a look at this link ......

http://www.hiway.co.uk/aviation/gifs/runway8a.jpg

if it doesn't get you at one end it will certainly try to get you at the other !!!! ......

cheers .....

also a "right base for 29" photo ......

http://www.hiway.co.uk/aviation/gifs/runway7a.jpg


cheers ........

flowman
2nd Nov 2002, 20:01
I think the photographs prove that the likelihood of leaves on the runway is extremely slim. I don't think they do trees in Sligo!
Good news that everyone's okay though.

flowman

NdekePilot
2nd Nov 2002, 20:40
The world's first F50 "hightail conversion"?

(Glad no one hurt.):eek:

macroman
2nd Nov 2002, 21:26
Lots of water, not exactly a long runway, probably a lot of water on the runway given the Irish weather lately. Not much room for error - speaks for itself really. Life in EC must be quite exciting these days what with tyres popping, maintenance 'issues' and washing the aircraft with both the crew and passengers onboard. Whatever next? Answers in a sealed envelope to ops at Luton.

broadreach
2nd Nov 2002, 21:33
Also glad no-one's hurt, though I can well imagine the chagrin and hope no careers are jeopardised.

"This was not precisely what we meant by Wet Lease". Sorry, couldn't resist.

Ignition Override
3rd Nov 2002, 04:40
Nice to see that nobody was injured.

And what a wise decision to squeeze in a runway there, unless the photo is misleading.

The planners should receive honorary membership in Mensa, and help solve society's puzzles with the others who have very high IQs. Where do the very gifted hold their conventions/seminars?

nosefirsteverytime
3rd Nov 2002, 10:12
aww come on, what's wrong with a challenge?

The Potter
3rd Nov 2002, 10:30
"You can lead a plane to water, but you can't make it drink!"

Delighted to hear that all pax & crew are alright. Let's just hope that the guys & gals who have worked bloody hard to keep this airline running, in spite of completely atrocious management, do not end up out of work.

Good luck to you all.

:( :(

godfather
3rd Nov 2002, 16:30
Glad everyone is okay after this mishap! **** can hit anyone on any flight.

These guys where just the crew & pax on wrong flight, cockpit guys has most likely learned their lesson for life. Quite sure that EC managment will keep them, unless they accept some ®good® advice from their partner on the continent!!!:confused:

IMMELMAN
3rd Nov 2002, 19:10
Very magnanimous godfather - but learning a lesson for life when both crew are in their late 50's and one is the Chief Training Captain - does not really make for a good philosophy, or learning curve - perhaps we better just wait until we have some idea of just what did happen and why the aircraft did not go around, but overran, before we talk about **** happening, or talk about anything until we have some facts - the permutations of 'Why' are endless - 'guess that's why we have accident investigations:confused:

Sean Dillon
3rd Nov 2002, 23:12
This is a huge shame....the potential for this little operation was very good in my opinion. But, alas, the management are the worse i've ever come across....and will be responsible for its down-turn.

Glad to hear no-one was hurt and sincerely hope this isn't the end of the company.

Wouldn't be suprised to see an AOC in suspension first thing Monday morning in view of this and the incident at LTN until someone sorts out its management structure.....or replaces them!

Understand the aircraft has been written off after the tide came in, anyone know ? and it had also just been sold to be replaced by F50's.

IMMELMAN
3rd Nov 2002, 23:48
I am given to understand the aircraft is a total loss. As for AOC - you may well be right - 'had some trouble with last Ops inspection, I am told - was an F27 and, yes, they are being replaced by F50s - I do not know if this aircraft was on Irish or British register - this will determine who does the accident investigation. If it is UK AAIB, I fear they will not survive - however, given the circumstances, that may not be all wrong - great shame for the competent people that work for them but we must not lose sight of what, for whatever reason, happened to the passengers on board - they place blind trust and faith in an operation - if it is not up to that trust, well, what do you think should happen? There is EU funding involved here, so I guess there are many interests at work - ours not to judge - we have no facts, or very few - note that it did not seem to rate any form of mention in UK media! strange, that! We must, however continue to bear in mind that many people's jobs hang on this, together with the crew and their careers and self-esteem - it is a very delicate situation - only alleviated by the fact ( hopefully ) that nobody is reported as having been injured - physically, at least - really best for all involved and concerned if, even in this forum, we exercise self-control and leave any comment until after a full and professional investigation. This sort of incident/accident is not really for 'voyeurs' - this is deadly serious stuff. The legal ramifications and implications alone are of such dimension that we should just leave them alone in their misery to sort it out. Not from ghoulish motivation, but does anybody have a picture of the wreckage?

akerosid
4th Nov 2002, 04:43
The investigation will be conducted by the Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) of the Irish Dept. of Transport, but the AAIB will also have an input, representing the state of registry, the UK. I don't understand why the UK's conduct of the inquiry might lead to the airline not surviving? Standards are no different and the AAIU will not pull its punches.

The aircraft may well be an insurance write off, but it does not appear to be too badly damaged. Sea-water related corrosion may be the main concern.

LTNman
4th Nov 2002, 05:53
Not the first time Euroceltic have had a problem when landing. This from PPRUNE posted 2002-11-04
xxx just recently made a very interesting approach at LTN, 300 ft above the threshold and still landed !!!!! All tyres burst and a serious CAA investigation...wouldn't be surprised if the AOC gets pulled next...

Sean Dillon
4th Nov 2002, 06:09
Especially as it was the same Captain on both incidents !!!!

The Potter
4th Nov 2002, 06:20
For once I agree with you Sean Dillon. EC have an operation that only exists because of the hard work & effort that has been put into the company by the pilots & the cabin crew. They are one of the best bunch of people any regional carrier has anywhere. It has quite a unique mix of guys & gals: the F/Os are all in their first airline flying jobs & all of the captains (apart from one who is the exception in the talent stakes that proves the rule) are in their sixties with a wealth of airline experience. Two of the young F/Os were recently promoted. It makes for a great combination of personalities. As for the cabin crew; they all have previous airline experience, they are great, intelligent & fun loving Irish girls without equal. You have seen on this thread the type of airfields that these guys have been operating into: lets just say they are challenging & hopefully if this airline goes under prospective employers will take their experience level into account.

But how have the management behaved towards these people. Please allow me to enlighten you:-
After every other department in the airline has received pay rises the pilots & cabin crew have always been told that,"...it's the wrong time to ask..." They haven't had a pay rise for the two years that the company has existed.
Their measly £1.00 per hour daily allowance is always a paid a month too late so they are out of pocket & funding themselves every time they are away.
The new "management" put them up at Pebble Beach holday camp in Tramore. This is the holding place for Asylum seekers from Nigeria & last year was in the Waterford press because of a spate of stabbings & arson attacks! The flight crew spend up to seven nights at a time in this dump.
They have been lied to constantly about the appearance of the F50s & been left dangling on a string with the promise of a new type but then the company seeks a £14,400 bond.
They are allowed to work a longer duty period than CAP 371 states & frequently do all for nothing, with constant split duties. They have absolutely no rostering agreement & have changes made to their rosters whenever operations feel like it.

To the First officers you deserve far better, when things pick up , as they surely will, you will get your just rewards.



"All the very Best Whizzer, you are a cut above."

Let's differentiate here Sean Dillon. There were two captains on that aircraft: one known to be only allowed to fly under supervision ref: the CAA, & the other a top class professional who, as Training Captain for Euroceltic, was the poor guy who had to fly with this pillock. This is because they are short of guys in-check to fly the F27 as the management couldn't get their a*se into gear regarding training the crews onto the F50s.

cabinslave
4th Nov 2002, 16:58
I would like to make a point on here that its not ONLY the pilots and cabin crew who have worked hard and not only those still in the airline. Those who joined in the beginning and also those who have come and gone have hoped to believe that this airline will be the first that listened to ALL employees not just a select few and would also be a place where doors were not shut, but there you go, hope is the biggest fool. Maybe those who become bitter towards ops are just heading in the same direction of those managers who shut doors on others, in the end its down to a lack of understanding of how other peoples departments work. Ignorance is bliss

Sensible Garage
4th Nov 2002, 18:14
Euroceltic's Fokker F27 G-ECAT overran the runway on landing at Sligo Airport (EISG) on Saturday evening (2/11/02). Footage on RTE's evening news showed the aircraft with its nose partially
submerged in the sea. Everyone on board appears to have evacuated safely through the rear door. It was operating flight 'ECY406' from Dublin.

Bearcat
4th Nov 2002, 23:22
yes Garage, nice to see you are ahead of the thread in liason with the incident

Captain Anchovy
4th Nov 2002, 23:25
I have been in ECY Operations since before the company was awarded its AOC so it`s time to put a few facts straight....
The Potter.....as Cabinslave quite rightly says..it is not just the pilots and cabin crew who have worked hard for this airline..I know what it is like to do 21 hour shifts without much of a break....and unlike pilots and cabin crew who benefit from the use of a hotel when doing split duties!!I know what you mean about the use of crew houses in Tramore but to be fair...crews haven`t been based in WAT for some time now...crews now get hotac in DUB,SXL & CFN.
Finally we in Operations do NOT change crew rosters just because we feel like it...that is grossly unfair so an apology would not go amiss....when you are faced with too few pilots and alot of flights to cover....then you will know what it is like!!
In the meantime we are all facing uncertain times.....

CA

IMMELMAN
4th Nov 2002, 23:43
Any updates? The reason I suspect aircraft being total loss was not from sea-water corrosion but because I suspect nose-gear and props will be u/s, mains likely to be, plus batteries and radar and associated electronics and avionics traumatised at the least. The rest of the airframe may also have received considerable stress/strain/impact damage - but all speculation - no pictures seen - I assume runway still closed, unless wreckage already recovered? When two bodies get involved in investigations the outcome is sometimes unpredictable - as said, there are forces at work here. No suggestion that Irish authority would be significantly different, I hope, just that there may be more than one authority involved. I am given to understand that the PH has been dismissed and the PNH Training Captain has resigned. Our sympathies must of course lie with all employees, plus others who have helped to keep this operation going - plus of course consideration toward the passengers who experienced this:( :(

The 5Q
5th Nov 2002, 16:00
http://celticflyer.iwarp.com/images/fokkedfokker.gif

fokker chick
5th Nov 2002, 21:00
I'm glad everyone concerned is safe and well.
I must agree with cabin slave and captain anchovie,ops do work hard and try their best not to change rosters around too much,but it is hard when you are short of crew.
I know the cabin crew and pilots all work very hard and have put up with a lot of s**t from the managment.
Lots of people still want to see this little airline survive, and it can only do so if everyone pulls together and works as a team and listens to each other.
I do feel sorry for the poor cabin crew member who was flying solo that day,I'm sure the cabin crew manager and the rest of the girls will look after her.
By the way "potter" there were a couple of english girlies who were just as much fun,it wasnt their fault that they got shoved in the office and were'nt allowed to fly as much !!!But hey there's only one left because the others went off to better things(dont take offence cabin slave),well one got pushed because she stood up for herself,and the other,well what can I say,the sun is much more of a suitable option for myself at the moment !!!
Take care everyone and lots of hugs and kisses to all xxxxxxxxxx
FC
ps cabin slave it rained after I spoke to you but its nice and sunny again and hot.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

IMMELMAN
5th Nov 2002, 22:11
Thanks The 5Q - If rear door was really used, difficult to eject with panache, I would say:o

JetsetSid
6th Nov 2002, 17:37
Well,

NOw that the dust has settled and the slagging match has finished!!!! I agree with Fokker Chick. There are those of us who want to see the airline survive. You have 2 dedicated teams who really are relying on this airline. 1. The staffers of ECY and 2. The staffers of Waterford Airport.
This morning on the Waterford local radio the airlines Chairman had a pretty ok interview. In fairness to the man he holds his hand up and lets you know there are certain facets to the airline he has not yet mastered. And most importantly he's doing something about it. From what I can see the airline business seems to have more gossip in it than Cosmopolitan and the TV times combined. In my humble view. ECY arrived in a baptism of fire last year to it's current owner. The gentleman concerned swollowed a rather large debt and he's pushing the show forward. Unlike many other business's, airlines do need to be micromanged. Every seat, every day is a perishable item. For an airline the size of ECY it will consume large amounts of everyone's time from top to bottom to continue it's climb back into the air. Management in most companys don't go out to shaft employees and from what I can see of ECY they don't in there either.
I think most of the crap which has turned up in here is derived from ex employees who had their botty's smacked. Indeed Fokker chick you are enjoying the sunnier climbs of Florida. Good on ye. We'd all love to move to Florida. But alas some of us like the aul sod and plan on staying put. So for those staying around, enjoy the challenge of working with your progressive little airline. For the rest. **** OFF and stop grumbling.

To quote Monty Python "If all your going to do is grumble, they should have taken your teeth away".

Slan a chaire.

J.Sid

Saxplayer
6th Nov 2002, 23:34
Well the runway at SXL was clear on Monday 4th. I heard that the pilot has resigned. I know that the aircraft touched down more than half way down the runway, The AAIB will let us know why!
Glad nobody was injured!

fokker chick
6th Nov 2002, 23:54
I'n sad that one of the pilots in question has resigned as he was a real gentleman with a vast amount of experience on various types of a/c. I'm sure he'll be missed by all.
once again hugs and kisses to all xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
FC

JB007
7th Nov 2002, 19:43
Well, that is a sad sight!!

Even though my time at ECY was short, it was evident that there is a huge amount of enthusiasm by alot of the staff for it to work and a large amount of very very good people that is ECY's main asset. I really do hope that they can recover from this....

Best of luck to all at Halcyon House and WAT....

As fokkerchick said, I sure feel for that poor girl who was the solo cabin attendant that day...

Rich

IMMELMAN
11th Nov 2002, 00:11
This topic has gone very quiet! Iam given to understand that CAA wanted to ' pull ' EC AOC but, after some bargaining, it was agreed to 'ground' the F27 fleet but allow the F50s to continue! EC have, I understand, bought the F50 Operator and now cannot decide if they will 'lay off' the F27 people, or bond them for some quite significant amount to type them on the F50. Meantime, F27 people do not know if they will be paid this month, or if they have a job at all! This all sounds very familiar but may be quite inaccurate - so, if anybody can give an update on this, it would be useful. If CAA have doubts about an operation, it surely is splitting hairs if one fleet is seen to be 'ok' and another is not - they cannot be so naiive as to go along with the all-too-familiar manouevres to keep a, basically, unworthy operation in business - nice to support the 'underdog', agreed, but if this is potentially at the cost of the 'travelling public', will CAA carry the ultimate 'can'?
EC's recent history needs to be examined - if the Ops Inspector feels he is justified, then 'so be it' - I just hope he can sleep at night!:(

The 5Q
11th Nov 2002, 20:10
Dont belive everything you here...

The talk of the F50 operation being bought has been going around for awhile, last time I asked ECy owner he denied it.

The talk of ECY purchasing the remaining EI F50's sounds more through, I've heard that all paperwork signed and processed.

F27 crews will be around awhile more (long long while)

Regds

IMMELMAN
11th Nov 2002, 20:29
:) Thanks The 5Q - that sounds a whole lot more optimistic - I certainly hope the F27 people will be ok - they have some good people - it would be a great shame for this accident to have messed up their careers, or anybody else's, for that matter:) Best wishes to you/them all !

Avenger
12th Nov 2002, 09:40
Reading these postings, it sounds like the f27 guys get a fairly raw deal, the majority of them must be fairly experienced by now, perhaps it's time they considered moving on.
It can't be easy for the management at the moment either as it would appear this F27 to F50 transition has not been planned as it should.
We meet some of these crews positioning, they seem like a good bunch, it would be a pity if all this rumour and back biting were to cause what is essentially a good operation problems.

The Potter
13th Nov 2002, 12:42
REDUNDANCIES AT EURODISNEY AIRWAYS

Well I was strongly criticised for my previous postings on this thread but what I said I stand by, because:-

Euroceltic Airways today made all of its flight crew redundant.

Thay have all been put on a three month redundancy notice & have been infromed that they may still keep a job with this dreadful company if they will front up the cash for their own type rating course on the F50. No mention of a pay rise for them; no mention of efficient rostering & the company having respect for all of their previous hard work; no mention of anything like sector pay. No, no, not with Euroceltic, just a matter of give us your cash & you may keep your jobs. No other department has been affected, just the usual target: the Flight Crew.

Good luck lads, as I said before, you thoroughly bloody deserve far better than this s#!t. And why am I so concerned: because what one crappy little carrier does to its crew today the others may do tomorrow.
:mad: :mad:

JB007
13th Nov 2002, 14:47
For gods sake.....

Your all better off out of it, leave this appaulling management team to it.

Captain Anchovy
13th Nov 2002, 15:19
Yes Potter you were quite rightly criticized for your previous
posting and you will be for this one too!

You seem to have such a good insight as to the workings of ECY I can only assume you must be on the payroll.However just like your last posting you are very much mistaken or out of touch.
You seem to have this bee in your bonnett about the Flight Crews and their greatly admired devotion to duty that without them the airline would cease to exist...so it`s about time that myth was finally laid to rest.
Not only does the airline employ pilots..but Operations staff (including me), Cabin Crew,Office based people as well as Handling Agents countrywide..ALL of whom want the airline to succeed and ALL of whom could be affected by your latest outburst of paranoia.
Yet again you mention something about a pay rise...what pay rise????...I`ve never had one...so you can retract that statement for a start!

Finally as I am currently on my days off at the moment I find it a little disturbing that my future is being banded out on here like it is some sort of properganda..anyway like most pilots you seem to be of that ilk whereby moaning and whinging is just as valuable as having a particular type rating ( ...no I am not a frustrated pilot..Captain Anchovy snr happens to be one of the most experienced in the country!)

CA

fokker chick
13th Nov 2002, 16:31
I know I'm thousands of miles away and no longer involved (thank god !!), but you guys have got to stop b**ch*** about everything thats gone wrong and blaming each other.
Its appauling whats going on but please try to be adult about it all and support each other through the hard times.Everyone used to be so friendly when it started out dont lose that.
Hugs and kisses to all
FC xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

MarkD
13th Nov 2002, 16:41
Two questions:

1. Let's set aside [and it's quite a bit to set aside] the "shouldn't make them do it anyway" and get to the technical - what is the time and cost to the crews from F-27 to F-50? I know different engines and presumably well different flight deck, but...

2. doesn't this have the same ring as RE's move from S360 to ATR-42? Have ECY merely been taking lessons from the competition?

The punters salivating at ECY's difficulties, not least that even the lads south of the Med won't take a salty 27, should recall how RE held the Govt to ransom over the PSOs some time back - at least there is some competition for the taxpayer's Euro!

maxalt
13th Nov 2002, 18:53
If the EC guys refuse to cough up for the differences course are there any current F50 drivers kicking their heels? Probably not.

There might be some other F27 drivers interested in coughing up I spose...scabs in other words, if you had an official dispute and were part of a union.

You are all in IALPA of course...aren't you???
Of course...
NOT.
:mad:

The Potter
13th Nov 2002, 21:02
To those of you who work in operations at Eurodisney's head office in Luton I apologise for not mentioning you in my previous postings. I have discussed the excellent cabin crew that EC has before, & to all those who were with the company from the outset sorry, once again, for ignoring you. You do all indeed work hours that are probably illegal under UK legislation, but you keep on doing it. Captain Anchovy, you have not been asked to lay out your own money to keep your job. How would you feel if just before christmas you were laid off & then told that to keep your employment you had to pay more than half of your annual salary for reduced terms & conditions when you'd done it. Not too pleased, I'll bet?

Everyone can see that you are also in an extremely vulnerable situation & that if certain things progress for Euroceltic the way the lousy management want them to, you will also all be given the push in due course. You will all be surplus to requirements.
What's that I hear you cry? "We've all been told that our jobs are safe." So were the pilots for the past year & look at what has just happened to those poor guys.

MarkD, yes it does indeed seem like a copy of what happened at Aer Aran. At least Aer Aran didn't expect the pilots to cough up for their own type training, & no, it is not just difference training. It is a completely separate type.

I repeat: the pilots have been lied to for the past year & have just simply been strung along. There has been total exploitation by this company of the job shortage situation for all staff. The best thing that you can do guys & gals is to leave as JB007 says. I mean everyone, by the way, not just the flight crew.
:( :( :( :(

Kirks gusset
13th Nov 2002, 23:02
Hey Harry Potter,

Take a dignity pil and stop eating bags of lemons!

Whats happened isn't great but let's hope the rest of the company keeps going.

Captain Anchovy, always thought you were fishy, Get back in your tank!

Things may well change again, in any event it's time to get twisted and have a proper debate away from this public forum, we've suffered enough.

straight from the hip... Gusset Style

IMMELMAN
13th Nov 2002, 23:58
Well -- unfortunately and predictably, I understand that's it for the F27 people! I did not hear anything about option to 'buy' F50 rating - just that F27 pilots are now redundant - 'cos that's what it is. I would strongly advise anybody in BALPA, or other organisation, to seek advice since, under UK law, it is not quite as easy for ECY to 'shed' the problem - from the little that I have heard, the F27 people have a very good chance of a successful Industrial Tribunal. I do not think that 'buying' a rating would quite qualify as being offerred redeployment within the company. It's up to you people, of course, but you do not have to accept three month's pay and roll over you know. If you are not in BALPA or similar you can still get advice and you may find a way of getting your costs covered. I know as a youngster it is easier to ' just accept it ' - but you don't have to. I would predict that if this is a 'typical' stroke by ECY, the 'survivors' will also be hit in their turn, so don't get complacent - your turn next, unless somebody has the courage to take a stand. Order your thoughts, make a detailed record of exactly what has happened, how you were told, etc., and seek advice. You will be concerned about 'blotting your copy-book' and any action being held against you by prospective future employers - I can understand that. However, it doesn't quite work like that. In times of full employment, this would not happen. Jobs are short and all the loopholes are being used to bring in 'cheap labour' by air transport operators who are not really that any more. I suspect that the way in which this has been done no way satisfies the requirements of the law - because this sort of operator is ignorant of the law, or is so arrogant that they think they are beyond it and that you are 'captive' and won't dare 'rock the boat'. I could go on a bit, but won't. It's up to you. If you have been arbitrarily 'flung out' on minimum contractual terms and no correct process has been followed - you need advice - get it!:D

PS: You will have to have been employed for a full 12 months to have any chance of success at Tribunal - you also need to carefully review your contract of employment - remeber that the 'contract' does not necessarily have to be written - some contractual 'terms and conditions of employment' may well be established by what your 'employer' has told you, or written to you. There may be a repudiation here - if that is the case you have a 'reasonable' period in which to 'accept' the repudiation, or otherwise. What that means is do not 'just go along with something' if you are unhappy with it - like paying for a new rating - register your non-acceptance of what has been proposed - but, PLEASE seek advice - unless you happen to be an IR law specialist, you will not find your way through it. There are so many specialists out ther who can advise and guide you - however, BALPA is the best at that - so, if you intend to carry on in this increasingly unsavioury business - join BALPA - NOW! :)

Avenger
14th Nov 2002, 09:05
Immelman has a point here, besides which, how easy would it be for you guys to work in Denmark? Don't think so!
News travels at Dublin and you may find you have more support than you think in this case. Someone has to handle the aircraft here.... eventually, someone has to clear them to taxi... eventually.
What were the management thinking off when they pulled this stroke; For the sake of a few quid, how much goodwill will be lost?
Contractors are'nt cheap in the long run, and having come so far with this project why has the CEO lost faith at the last minute.
No one likes an aviation dispute, but I feel one on it's way.
Cheer them up Gusset!

The Potter
14th Nov 2002, 10:24
Maybe the owners of this nasty little outfit should have taken , "a dignity pill," Kirsty's knickers! One thing is for sure, it's a bitter bloody pill for the flight crew to have to swallow.

Allow me to enlighten you as to what moral people now run this airline: they were openly stating that they were pleased that the incident had occured at SXL because it had brought maximum publicity to this outfit. "No such thing as bad publicity," they claimed. They were also boasting of a windfall of cash because of the insurance claim on the drowned F27!

Please don't talk to me about dignity.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Kirks gusset
14th Nov 2002, 11:50
Behave Potter,

You may want to edit that.. I'm not being judgemental either, but this is bad press by any standards.
Take it you got out of bed and stepped into the chamber pot!
Understand BALPA may be giving some advice.

JB007
14th Nov 2002, 14:01
I know Potter's postings are about as negative as they come but he's correct in everything he's saying. There is alot going on behind the scenes and I would say to all those in Ops and others at Halcyon House, do not wait to see what happends - start looking for another job!

I also hope every single F27 flight deck member takes Immelman's advice...surely they cannot get away with this..?

fokker chick
15th Nov 2002, 00:31
Well said rj
fc xxx

The Potter
15th Nov 2002, 10:52
Dirk's Drawers, we live in a country of free speech.
No I do not want to edit my previous post.

I am sorry that my posts are all negative at the moment JB007 but there are not many positives in this situation for the flight crew. No Captain Anchovy, I am not on Eurodisney's payroll anymore thankfully, but I have helped this airline in the past more than you'll ever know.

Allow me to enlighten you as to how this company has operated in recent times:
The pilots were all being told, right up to last week, that their jobs were safe, that for all of their loyalty & hard work they would be rewarded. This week they all got a letter stating that they were all having their contracts terminated. No consultation, no one on one with management, nothing. They were told that they would be trained onto the F50 when the time came. They are now being replaced by Scandanavian pilots who will hopefully cost this company far more in the long term. Did this airline inform the CAA that it was laying off it's entire F27 crew? No it did not. You now have a UK airline operating within Ireland & Britain without a single pilot of those two countries flying the aircraft for them. Where the hell else in Europe would you find that happening.

This apalling airline has taken the worst concepts of flagging out, paying for ratings & bonding agreements & put them all into one melting pot to produce the most inferior management system operating in Ireland or Britain. As I have said: you are far better out of it & all the very best of luck to you in your future careers. Don't let these bunch of w@#<£rs put you off.
:mad: ;) :mad: ;)

V810
15th Nov 2002, 13:00
Its a pitty the Potter has not posted all the facts (even though he knows them) about the Luton and the Sligo Insident.

Its about time To put the record straight,
1, the main cause of the insident at Luton was unsolicitored interference on the flight deck by a leprechaun who was sacked from the company and was lucky the matter was not taken further.
2, At Sligo the aircraft touched down at the normal touch down point at the correct speed in very adverse conditions.
3, The ground fine was selected and did not enguage was reselected and enguaged on the second attempt by which time more than half the usuable runway was used (runway length 1200m)
4, The wheels locked up and the aircraft slid from 2/3 of the way down the runway off the end in to the water which is about 50m from the end of the runway.
5, F27`s not going into ground fine is not an uncommon problem.(Coventry insident to name one)
6, the Potter is bitter because lack of promotion would any one promote such a loyal company man!!!!

MarkD
16th Nov 2002, 18:08
Hmm... V810 makes the crew departures from ECY post-incident even more curious if things happened as you have posted.

t3953
16th Nov 2002, 18:52
V810...THANK YOU!!!

You know what they say about people on the defensive such as the Poxy Potter!

IMMELMAN
17th Nov 2002, 00:25
ThanksV810 - As I said in my post of 03 November, speculation over causes of accidents or incidents does nobody any favours - let's just wait for the result of the investigation! People's careers, livelihoods and licences, among other things, depend on that outcome. It is not acceptable to speculate, particularly since there are potential legal issues involved in doing so! As I said, there are many, many possible causes - often a combination of more than one. The data from the F27, however, is not likely to be that good - it may not show if, for example, the aircraft became airborne again, at selection , thus not selecting or that a microswitch was faulty or that anti-skid was inoperative. Who the hell knows ?- maybe not even those flying it - that is why professionals carry out those investigations, armed with the highest level of knowlege and experience/expertise - just wait for the report - and I would suggest it would be very unwise, and certainly unfair, for anybody to start advancing theories!
The issue that I believe, however, is pefectly reasonable to continue to debate is what has or has not happened to the F27 pilots, and anybody else affected by ECY's subsequent actions. Still, however, debate achieves little except bad feeling - it is for those souls affected to seek advice, as I posted recently. We may even harm their chances of a fair outcome if we continue to stir things up, don't you think?:)

Avenger
17th Nov 2002, 10:58
Are we missing something here?

Should'nt the landing distance take into account the fact that reverse or in this case ground fine might not work,perhaps the brakes failed as well as the ground fine and the tyres!

At Coventry the aircraft only had flap 26 and landed at Vref plus 20knts, are we saying the SXL aircraft was in a similar configuration?

Immelman, what's getting airbourne at selection got to do with anything? I'm given to understand the F27 ground fine is not protected by weight on wheels switching.

I agree it is never productive to speculate about an accident, but it does seem from the timing that this one finished the F27 fleet operation.

At this time we should be thinking of the crews that have been laid off, if it happened as is posted here I do agree with Immelman on the legal bit.

BANGHER
17th Nov 2002, 15:44
You're right Avenger, this thread seems to have lost the plot a bit and turned into two different issues.

The Potter sounds a bit miffed to say the least, but if the crews have been dumped as he/she says I can understand that, but we can't debate the reasons why management may have done this simply because we don't know.

As for the SXL incident, there's a lot of speculation going on here, but not getting ground fine should not have caused the aircraft to go off the end or burst the tyres.

If you brake like hell on a wet runway, then the F27 antilock system won't save you, trick is to get it right.

As for V810's reasons for the Luton blow-outs, what a load of cobblers! Even if there was unsolicited input from another person, the aircraft commander should have considered going around, not landing two thirds down the runway.

Was it the same guy flying at SXL, if so thats bad luck, but lightning does strike twice.

Its easy for me to contemplate sitting here with the sun on my back, guess it's not so cosy at ECY HQ now.

IMMELMAN
17th Nov 2002, 19:56
The last two posts make my point for me - thanks. We all think we know what happened at CVT and at LTN and at SXL, and may well be right although you have both shown in a very few words, with respect, that you don't really know much about it - just about what the average line-pilot knows, and that is not a lot - just the basics - that's why test-standard engineers, highly experienced test-standard pilots and others carry out investigations. What I am saying is 'leave the causes to the experts' - the only debate that should be going on is 'have those who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own been treated fairly/lawfully and do they have any recourse to justice/redress'?
As for flight safety, AAIB/Irish equivalent will report to CAA/Irish equivalent and they, in turn, will disseminate any facts/factors arising which may affect flight safety in the future. We won't see a CHIRP since it was an actual accident but there will be MORs. If there is an 'aircraft' problem as a causal factor - CAA will take steps ranging from immediate grounding of airframes, to issuing bulletins, directives, etc. This has not happened, so you can assume the causal factors were not 'design', for want of a better term - so we just have to wait for the result and any remedial mandates
Meantime, best concentrate on the apparent 'spin-off' - people losing jobs - even if we can do little to help, it would be good to show support. Some of those good folks were tucked up in bed, or whatever, when it happened, but they still lost their jobs - why? :(

Wheelon-Wheeloff.
18th Nov 2002, 12:02
Have just finished Sun/Mon CFN-DUB and were offered the Waterford as well but couldn't spare the A/C (understand it was subsequently cancelled). We (Loganair) did the same last weekend and was wondering if anyone knows how long these routes would be sub-contracted out for? I know Newair are doing the routes during the week and don't know if we will continue to do them at weekends?

Good Luck to all whose jobs are in doubt, sounds dire.

Kirks gusset
18th Nov 2002, 12:55
Hello logibear, your guess is as good as ours, I would assume that had Newair been able to operate, then they would have got the route, no reflection on you guys.

It's a pity the crews did'nt get cross trained onto the F50, but looks like the company is paying the price of indecision now.

They seem intent on ditching any goodwill that's been built up over the past two years, which is a shame, just hope the rest of the people are ok in the long run.

PS I was a friend of FO Russell Dixon so would rather you guys do the work than johnny foreigner.

Regards, contemplating the captains log after a large curry.

Kirks gusset
18th Nov 2002, 14:38
Immelman, with respect,

We do know what happened at Cov because the AAIB report was issued in 2001 and we know the skipper who was flying at the time, being the type of guy he is, he would'nt blag us with a cover up and actually went through the AAIB findings with us.

We do know the circumstances at LTN because we've seen the MOR and know the guys who were flying at the time.

The SXL incident is still to be clarified, but we have seen the MOR and, as you point out, the investigation is on going.

I think this gives us a little more knowledge than the average line Pilot.

We are all aware of the due process in investigating this incident and would love the right result to come out for the crew's sake.

Having said all that, just to avoid any thoughts of speculation, we also know why the pilots have all been made redundant, but it is not the type of debate we should have on an open forum.

;)

IMMELMAN
19th Nov 2002, 15:57
OK - fair enough - however - do not expect 'the truth, the whole truth.....' to appear in MORs......it sometimes does not. Believe all of them you see and you may well be misguided :D
I did suggest earlier that it may harm people's chances if too much debate here. I just recommended people in the position to show them support, to do so:)

macroman
21st Nov 2002, 00:31
Fokker Chick hope you're still working on that tan. My 20 says you're in the best place these days. Mind you, dull old LTN doesn't seem quite the same without you.

macroman
26th Dec 2002, 22:00
Anybody got any news of the outcome of the investigation of the Euroceltic F27 off the runway at SXL?