Maintaining a Multi Engine Rating (or whatever they call it thesedays)

[LowNSlow]

A long long time ago, in a distant galaxy, I held a multi engine rating on my CAA PPL. This together with my IMC has long since lapsed.

Can anybody help with information on:

a) Revalidating the multi rating

b) Maintaining currency on a twin

When the JAA licence came in there seemed to be a lot of confusion regarding maintaining currency. The general concensus was that it was going to be very expensive (even by twin standards) to keep current. The one hour per year required by the old system was way to lenient IMHO but what does one have to do now?

[BEagle]

Your old 'Group B' rating is now known as a 'Multi Engine Piston Class Rating'.

As yours has lapsed, you need to 'renew' it. The requirements differ depending upon whether it has lapsed by more than or less than 5 years. If less, then you merely need to fly a MEP Class Rating proficiency check with a Flight Examiner. If more than 5 years you need to complete appropriate theoretical and flight training at a Flight Training Organisation or Type Rating Training Organisation approved to conduct MEP training, then fly the MEP Class Rating proficiency check with a Flight Examiner.

Once your MEP Class Rating has been renewed, you need to keep it valid. To do this you must, within the last 3 months of the 12 month validity period, fly a revalidation proficiency check with a Flight Examiner AND complete 'experience' requirements. These consist of flying at least 10 'route sectors' ( take-off, not less than 15 minutes in the cruise, arrival, approach and landing) within the 12 month validity period. Once you've met these requirements, your MEP Class Rating will be revalidated for a further 12 months from the date it would have expired.

As an alternative to the 10 route sectors, you can instead fly a single route sector with a Flight Examiner as part of your MEP Class Rating revalidation proficiency check.

So, if your rating expired within the last 5 years:

Pass a MEP Class Rating renewal proficiency check
Keep your rating current with an annual MEP proficiency check in the last 3 months of the rating, plus either 10 'unassessed' route sectors or 1 route sector flown with a Flight Examiner.

[StrateandLevel]

If your B rating has expired by 5 years or more, Twin training plus written exam at an approved school (there are plenty of them) then the flight test, send to CAA for re-issue.

Les that 5 years do a test with a M/E examiner and he signs you up.

Annually, a test with an examiner to include 1 sector and it takes about 1 hour 15min. Forget the 10 route sectors, if you have them, it saves 15 minutes on the test. Not worth bothering about.

So at the end of the day not really a lot of difference, apart from the proficiency check.

[LowNSlow]

Thanks chaps. Unfortunately my rating expired about 6 years ago. Either way, since my recent experience is predominently Cubs and Austers, I'm sure some refresher training wouldn't go amiss. :D

I assume once I've passed the written and the test, I'll be issued with a JAA rating rather than a revalidation of the old CAA one?

If I'd realised that there was a test renewal option meant that it was pretty much the same as the old CAA system I would have made more of an effort to keep it current. Ah well.

Now I need to find a schol in the Herts area that does twin training. Any recommendations people?

[sharpshot]

I just renewed mine for the third time. Got married twice and had to let it lapse;) :D

Great info from you all, but one question I forgot to ask my CFI:
How do the twin hours fit into the equation of needing to fly the single hours in the second year of that part of your licence validity?? (Hope you get my drift - no pun intended)

Now to prevent losing the rating for the third time:p :p :eek:

[distaff_beancounter]

Sharpshot
I hold both SEP & MEP class ratings & fly both single & twins regularly.

However, the experience required for revalidation, seems to me to be totally illogical .... but that is JAR for you!:mad:

For the year 2002, I am in the first year of the SEP 2 year cycle, so I do not need to fly a SEP AT ALL! But in 2003 I must do 12 hours of otherwise pass a SEP proficiency test.

In 2002, (just to be perverse :D ) I have done more SEP time than MEP & may not quite get the 10 "route sectors" in my logbook, before my annual MEP test in December.

But as previous posters have said, this does not matter. A route sector is only 15 minutes in the cruise, plus a circuit join & landing. At Elstree, as for many small aircfields around London, it takes 10 to 15 mins, just to get to the local training area, where we can get away from the London TMA, & climb above 2500' to do the upper air work bit of the test. So, in practice, all I have to do is tell the examiner that I have not quite got the 10 sectors, & would he please test me over the one sector that we will be doing anyway!

As for you question on cross-crediting .... there ain't none! This summer I have done lots on long cross countries in SEPs including to France, but none of these count towards the MEP sectors.

The only small concession that the examiner told me about last year, was that my MEP test, doubles as the one hour instructional flight for the SEP. So we can save that cost.

[sharpshot]

Well distaff_b.......you have got me totally:confused:

I thank you for your post and all most interesting and as Spock might say.....totally illogical:(

So if nothing equates from MEP to SEP, does that mean in the second year I could fly NIL hrs in a single, 12 hrs in a twin, do the pre-requisite sorties of 15 mins in the cruise and pass my test.........be deemed profficient to fly a multi and banned from a single?? What sort of licence would that leave me with:confused: :confused: :confused:

Probably work it out if I was airborne:D

[StrateandLevel]

Same licence but with MEP rating valid only.

Why does everyone assume they have to fly 12 hours in the second year. Its an option, but if you do a Prof Check with an examiner it doesn't matter what hours you fly. This was the original JAA intention, the experience idea was the UKs way of avoiding a test and maintaing the old system!

Most people who elect to do the prof check are surprised how simple it all is.

[Stan Evil]

Sharpshot, you are muddying the water. There is no 12 hour experience requirement on a twin. You can only revalidate a MEP rating by proficiency check. SEP ratings are entirely separate and can be revalidated either by experience or by test. It is quite feasible to end up with a current MEP rating and a lapsed SEP. There are probably lots of twin piston owners out there in just that situation.

[sharpshot]

Well thank you Stan Evil - you have answered my query.
I just cannot believe that you can be adjudged profficient to fly a twin and find your licence invalid for a single.

Is it just me..............but I frankly don't see the logic.

I wasn't suggesting the need to fly 12 hours in a multi - but had
mistakenly concluded that perhaps if you did, it would cover the single requirement(test or no test).

Life with a PPL never used to be this complex:rolleyes:

[FlyingForFun]

sharpshot,

When was the last time you did a PFL in a twin?

Ok, so many pilots only do one PFL every two years, during their compulsary ride with an instructor, and that's definitely not enough to stay safe - but it's more than the average twin pilot would do.

I can't see that it would take very long to re-validate your SEP if you've got a current MEP, though. Apart from PFLs, I can't think of anything else you'd need practice at.

FFF
----------

[sharpshot]

FFF........I can tell you when I last landed with one shut down.

:confused: Now then FFF - a PFL in a twin? Wouldn't you divert?
Aaah, you must be assuming a double engine failure - no, haven't practised one of those lately, instructor not keen if student suggests feathering both:D

[distaff_beancounter]

Yes, I have been asked to demonstrate a PFL in a twin.

What are you going to do when, at say 5.000', the examiner says "demonstrate to me what you would do now, if both engines have unstoppable fires" ?

Or is it just me who gets examiners with a sense of humour? :D

On the question of currency, do any other SEP/MEP pilots find the "3 take offs & landings, within the last 90 days, in an aircraft of THAT CLASS" a pain?

Pre JAR, the school where I fly & hire from, had a CFI's decretionery rule, whereby if you were current on a complex twin, he would authorise you to hire a simple single, even if you had not done 3 landings in the single in last 90 days.

Under JAR, even if you have done 100 MEP landings in last 90 days, you cannot take passengers in a SEP. (& the other way round).

Another PPL counts as a passenger for this purpose, so if you want to hire together, then you have to do 3 touch & goes, solo first.

[sharpshot]

Well d_b, tell me exactly what your reactions in chronological order would be:D

Two engines on fire simultaneously.......if that happens and the PFL, (it will be at least 30 mins after official sunset) is survivable,
go and by a Lotto ticket - it has to be your luckiest day;)

Oh, I forgot, the IRVR in the best field is down to 600m!

I shouldn't jest, but I do find the whole licensing issue of flying a single after doing plenty of hours in a twin a little OTT and as I find out more....!!
I have flown a PA-32RT for many years with some twin flying (PA-34) thrown in and apart from the missing extra bits and pieces, and effect of T-tail on take-off, going from the Seneca back to the Lance is hardly taxing.

Anyway can't take on the establishment, they're always too big
:(

[distaff_beancounter]

... at least 30 mins after official sunset ..... Ah, that reminds me! Must revalidate my night rating, as soon as the clocks go back.

Pre JAR, it used to be 5 solo circuits, in anything with any number of engines, & then you were valid for the next 13 months for both SEP & MEP.

Now, assuming that you have already done the 3 T/O & land in last 30 days in daylight, in each class, all you need is one solo circuit in a single, and one solo circuit in a twin.

BUT, on the other hand, even if you have not flown at night, at all for say the last year, you can toddle off in the dark, in any SEP or MEP, so long as you do not take a passenger.

Now, that is logical, Mr Spock ....:eek:

[sharpshot]

Hey d_b,
When I need to consult the "Oracle", I now know where to come.
Perhaps you ought to change your nom de plume to
"Fountain of All Knowledge"!

But alas:confused: Night rating invalid ..?? Aaah not possible to maintain over summer daylight saving at provincial airfield I guess:D Lucky I can drive acroos field and climb into cockpit H24.
The more I think about it, I have a great employer;)

If this JAR business gets any more complex, I am going to vote for an independent G.B.

Now what would Spock say to that:cool:

[distaff_beancounter]

sharpshot
No I am not very knowlegeable, I just know who to ask :D

I lot of my current knowledge on JAR, I have gained from my own and others' questions on this forum.

Also, I like laughing at the ridiculous, & there is sure plenty to laugh at in JAR. :D

Yes, you are lucky if you can do any night flying in the summer. I mostly fly from airfields that close at around sunset, in the summer. I love night flying, 'cos the scenary if much prettier after dark. :)

[sharpshot]

distaff_b

I must locate the JAR bits for PPL's if they truly are that:D :D

The last one's I read seriously were to do with big planes and big airports and they weren't that funny in relation to what I needed to know:mad:

Can't agree more about the night sky - Guy Fawkes night is a good one to be up but if nil wind and even dewpoint and temp it can clag in on our runways a bit quick:p

and what's any of this got to do with multi - ratings:confused:

Someone will soon tell me my medical is no longer valid for flying twins.:D :D

[LowNSlow]

sharpshot don't you have to have your cardio-vascular system upgraded under JAR to fly twins?

I heard that Dr. Who is the only chap with a legal medical these days (two hearts) :D :D

[sharpshot]

Low N Slow - worried about your medical condition- posting at 04:10......is that Insomnia or were you all keyed up to fly this beautiful day!!

Read other thread - nice PA-30's down at EGBJ, but not sure if they are doing flight training on them. Great fun doing tight turns just above the cloud layer with a tip tank lost in the fuzzy stuff;)

distaff-b
So the moderator has given the game away - now know who gives you all the Gen:)

What was that song about 2 hearts..........well if that's wot's needed for the next medical:(

[LowNSlow]

sharpshot BST + 4 hours here. Where's EGBJ? I'm in a Pooleys free zone here :D

I won't be flying until Wednesday when I get on the Tupolev 134 to get to Budapest and then on to one of BA's finest Bloody Mary dispensers erm a 767 I mean, to LHR. :D

[distaff_beancounter]

Sharpshot
BRL was very nearly correct, but I am not actually employed by anyone, as I am self-employed, or some would consider that that means unemployable, in my case :D
However, I am a consultant to a FTO, therefore I do avoid any mention on PPRUNE that would contravene the no advertiseing rule, & I agree entirely with that rule.
For the day job, I fly a fully computerised DESK :( , in a town centre, that is no where near an airfield.
I just fly recreationally at weekends, & any other time that I can sneak off.
So, I am just as confused about JAR, as the rest of you. :confused:

Perhaps it is because I have many years of reading, & having to understand, regulations relating to tax, VAT etc, that I am used to wading through verbal garbage.
Sorry, I mean carefully thought out, and clearly drafted legislation. :D

[sharpshot]

LowNSlow

You are a brave "person" coming along with anhedral winged machine. Now where does that place you - Samara..Moldova, golly who else still flies schedules with 134's;) BST + 4, umm, not Tajikistan:D :D

distaff_b
Sneak - off , bet you can, you can always finish it off later! Aspecially if you get the chance to go in a PA-44 again:cool:

LnS - EGBJ is good ole Gloucestershire, or Staverton to me - I'll make a call tomorrow and see if one is available for training.

P.S. PA-30's don't have anhedral wings - even with full tip tanks:D :D :D :D

[LowNSlow]

shrapshot I'm in sunny Atyrau on the North Caspian in Kazakhstan. Unfortunately the runway here can't take the later model 737 etc so we have the good old Tup on a company charter.

Ta for the offer but Staverton (sorry Gloucestershire Internationl) is a tad far away for me. :(

[sharpshot]

SHRAPSHOT Well LowNSlow, I better think of a name change before it looks any worse!!

So, how are the Kazakhs? They started flying in here with an A.320 which degenerated to a beat up TU-154B-1 when they only had approval to fly the 320 or a 154M. Anyway, there was some dispute somewhere east of here over navigational charges and never saw them again - here!
Has that new outfit started there with an A.300, flying to K.L. and somewhere else in F.E. Asia? They might turn up here allegedly.

Hope you find a nice PA-30, great exhaust noise when you retard both throttles.....well sounds great unless you want the power back:D

..........and are you now totally clued up as to how to maintain this MEP, in daylight and clear of cloud and in sight of the ground at least;) Don't worry if not, d_b knows who to ask:D

[LowNSlow]

sharpshot (I put a special effort into it this time:D) where abouts is "here" for you? Surely the Kazakhs weren't flying into EGBJ!

Kazakhstan Airways flies a varied collection but we only see the 134A's based in Atyrau with an occasional visit from an IL-76.

Regarding the VFC issue, I have a cunning plan. After renewing teh MEP, I might get really brave and revalidate my IMC on multis. I'll be like a junior ATPL then :D :D

[distaff_beancounter]

LowNSlow
I only know the answer to this bit of CAA regulations, 'cos it was thrashed to death on this forum a few weeks ago.

Your IMC rating IS already valid on twins, even if you did the initial test & all the subsequent renewals on a SEP :)

It seems to be RECOMMENDED that those who fly MEPs do the IMC renewals on a twin, but however illogical it may be, especially in comparison to the rules for the full IR, the CAA does not seem to have changed its regulations. :confused:

Unless, of course, anyone out there knows any different? :rolleyes:

[LowNSlow]

d_b how bizarre! Still, I'm not going to knock it. Common sense does dictate that if the IMC flying is going to be in a relatively rapid twin then the training should also be in a similar machine. Still, it's a wrinkle to keep in the old memory banks.

Doing an approach in IMC in a C150 and a twin are rather different :D :D

[sharpshot]

Just when I thought you two had given up ;) You're back:D

Sorry what did you say LowNSlow......oh no, it's you that's hard of hearing - standing close to all those banned non Chapter III noisy beasts. I love ILyooooshin IL-76's. I have a great photographic collection of them, but I now have to venture outside Europe to find them - (apart from the pranged one at Ostend:p )

Aah, back to twins, yep, d_b spot on again, what a wealth of info.
MEP's can still do the IMC renewal in a really slow single. Daft is'nt
it when you read through the rest of this MEP / SEP licence rquirements. Anyway, better to try and fly the single at 120kts than the twin at 65 :D :D :D :D

My last IMC renewal was in an Arrow and took forever: first approach I was number one and got an SRA......went around for the ILS and became number seven in tfc behind an A.330, so I was glad not to be loitering in a twin and paying the privilege.

d_b........what's the vortex spacing behind an A.330 and no cheating:p
It's okay for you to admit to being in Atyrau, I can't imagine anyone looking for another living soul out there:D A bit harsh really, it's probably a great place. Ever been to Tashkent, for a very obscure reason, I fancy going.

Anyway, not at EGBJ, would love to work at OMDB, but not between June and August so I'm here..........

[distaff_beancounter]

Sharpshot d_b.......... what's the vortex spacing behind an A.330 & no cheating Well, how would I know, when I have no quick means of cheating?
I just hope that ATC have read the correct book! :D

I did my last few IMC renewals in full IFR - airways equiped GA7s, 'cos they are more stable than singles, & its much easier to fly an accurate ILS with an HSI, rather than having to keep glancing between a DI & a VOR.
OOOPS....... or is that cheating again? :D

[sharpshot]

d_b

Let me see........would you have G-OOGA or -BOON in your log book with a signature against it;) ;)

There you go LowNSlow, do your IMC in the twin. As d_b says, much more stable.

She failed to mention the backhander that prevented her resolute instructor from pulling an engine just before glideslope capture:confused: :D

Whenever we ended up in the clag in a twin, my instructor used to say: "well your IMC's current!" and you just waited for the sound of prop synch going to an extreme.

I do miss him. As no doubt others do too.

[distaff_beancounter]

Sharpshot
The answer to your question, is one has been in my log books lots of times, but I have never heard of the other one. :)

No, I don't resort to bribery - well not yet

I just assume that the examiners will give me an easy time, 'cos I am a women ;)

Mind you, I usually finish up with an examiner, who is so completely politically correct, that he gives women pilots a really hard time, just to prove that he is not biased! :D

Well thats my story & I am sticking to it. ;)

[sharpshot]

d_b
Think the other one's at Cranfield. They both sound the same on asymmetric go-arounds though;)

LowNSlow
Home sweet home - for now. Have you started your multi-renewal? How do you intend maintaining it in Atyrau, that's what's puzzling me:rolleyes:

So you're both hoping to get giddy up the LTN Twr.
BRL ought to try for EMA - now that is a long way up:D

Must dash, more interesting planes going past the window!

[distaff_beancounter]

OK you two, I confess that my navigation/geography is not that good ..... so where the #@$% is Atyrau ?

Its obviously not where I normally go on my hols, 'cos its not even one of easyJet's or Ryanair's more obscure destinations, that are 50 miles from the advertised city.

Looks as if we might meet up at Luton ATC, but do we have to be really nice to BRL, to get into his hat? :D

[BRL]

No, I don't resort to bribery - well not yet
Really, :eek: you want to see what she's offering me for the Luton visit ;) :p

[sharpshot]

BRL

Now I'm no philosopher, however if you read d_b's posts carefully you have to reach the conclusion that she must think you are biased, unlike her "give me a hard time" instructor:D :D

Suppose d-b, you'll be booking with MyTravel Lite before much longer too. (Mind you there is a bus from Paris to Paris now.....
well Beauvais to Paris that is;)
Come on, do we need to fly with these computer junkies, we can't even get on a Jump Seat to watch them let their fingers do the walking no more - thought you would at least be up there in the L/H seat:p

Now then Atyrau: you can now learn something really useful from this thread and I stand to be corrected by LnS:D
Capital Almaty and it borders the following (according to my Uzbek diary that tells me that today is "Seshanba" - Russian Federation to the north, Mongolia to the East along with China, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan to the south and we are a long way west. In the days of the USSR, they housed places that were akin to Portondown,(um spelling UK place names tricky for a foreigner) so take your personal CBRN
equipment if you manage to pay Ryanair that extra £9 to take you.

I have come to the conclusion that it must be the ultimate destination to avoid any divorce lawyer and Child support agency:D :D :D ;)
What time's the next flight out!!

[LowNSlow]

d_b Atyrau is indeed in the RoK (Republic of Kazakhstan). It's the most Westerly city and sits 20ish km from the coast of the North Caspian Sea on the Ural River estuary.
The capital of Kazakhstan is Astana (sharpshot, you reading the CIA websire info, min 10 years out of date!), formerly (5 years ago) Almaty (wonderful place or so I've been told).

Peak summertime temps +40C

Peak wintertime temps -40C

Sharpshot , I work 28 days on / 28 days off therefore no probs regarding currency apart from Brit weather that is :D

d_b never voluntarily visit a place with no surface drains :D

The nasty NBC places were in Uzbekistan (the island in the Aral Sea was the place where they tried to crosslink Ebola and Anthrax-known as the Joke as in why would anybody do it !!!). Star City (Baikonar), the USSR Cape Canaveral is in Kazakhstan,

[distaff_beancounter]

Sharpshot & LowNSlow
Thanks for the very informative replies, which really did cover everything that I could possibly want to know about Atyrau. :D

And, no, I will not be asking easyJet, Ryanair, etc, if they will be starting scheduled services to there. :D

[sharpshot]

Gosh d_b
Thought you had popped over there this a.m. - it was so quiet here:D

We could tell you much more - places to fly, where to get your favourite meal, beaches on the Caspian and so much more.....

Aaah, you wanted to go with My Travel Lite.....oops, not in their plans just yet.

Can we get back to Multis......does anyone know (No names mentioned of course) if there is / are PA-34's available to hire at Wellesbourne? Please let me know "Oracle".