Difference between Approach/Departure & Radar.

[Field In Sight]

What's the difference between the use of ATSU call signs Approach/Departure and Radar.

I have called up before by doing the initial call i.e.
"Hawarden APPROACH this is G-ABCD"
and the reply was
"G-ABCD Hawarden RADAR Pass Your Details".

Obviously this is because they had Radar available.

I have read that the callsign Approach is used for a non-radar procedural service, but I fly from Liverpool, who do have Radar, and it's Liverpool Approach???

Also when departing, I contact Liverpool Approach not Departure?
Is that reserved for when the Approach/Departure frequency is not combined.

Thanks

[professor yaffle]

xxx approach when the is a/c not in receipt of a radar service
xxx radar when it is getting a radar service

hope this helps

prof

[Red Four]

Not Quite..

When outside controlled airspace
'XXX Radar' when radar is available and controller wiilling to provide, BUT you will NOT be receiving a Radar service until you have
1 ) been identified AND
2) ATCO has stated that you are in receipt of a radar service.

'XXX Approach' does not necessarily mean that radar won't be available, but that at the moment you request a radar service it is not available.

Oh well, made sense when I wrote it!!!

[1261]

At the particular unit you mention (EGNR) the situation is thus:

The tower generally provides an aerodrome control service (callsign "tower") and a procedural approach control service (callsign "approach") on 124.5 and 123.35 respectively. This is known as "bandboxing"; i.e. one controller providing two services on different frequencies at the same time.

As soon as a radar service is required, the tower controller can no longer do both at the same time (it's against the law). A second controller (sitting at the radar screen behind the curtain at NR) will take over 123.35 and provide an approach radar service (callsign "radar").

Most larger airports (including Liverpool) are unable to bandbox tower and approach services as they provide 24hr radar. However, the callsign "approach" is frequently used by controllers when providing an approach radar service - they are theoretically providing both an approach control service (for example to non-squawking FIS traffic) and an approach radar service (for example to IFR traffic) on the same frequency at the same time. For the sake of convenience, most controllers will use one callsign or the other rather than switching between the two.

In practice (at PH, anyway) it seems to be the older controllers who call themselves "approach" on the r/t, and we youngsters who call ourselves "radar"!!

If you're not confused now, you never will be......

[Tower Ranger]

1261

The curtain has long gone at EGNR they have even got SSR fed in from Warton and nice colour displays.

[1261]

The curtain was still there when I visited in April!

The colour displays are very nice; same as ours in fact!

Friendly staff, nice unit in fact. Shame I don't have a procedural rating or met ticket.....

[Spitoon]

Shame so many NATS controllers are only half trained! They might understand how the real world works if they were.













:D

[2 sheds]

1261

Perhaps the older hands are quite sensible. Personally, I think that it is confusing the issue if one uses the callsign "......... Radar" to a pilot who is very definitely not in receipt of a radar service. I would always use the callsign "....... Approach", then subsequently "...... Radar" as and when a radar sevice was provided.

I wish that SRG and rating training were a bit hotter on this one.

TS

[contact_tower]

As I see the regs "Radar" can only be used if you have radar information available in all of your assigned airspace, and can perform radar service if requested by a customer. E.g if you work in a tower with both twr/app bandboxed, vectoring aicraft might require more attention then you can spare.

Here at Endu we cannot use "radar" because we only have radar coverage down to roughly 7000ft, and uses procedural control below that. (It sucks btw.......... :( )

[1261]

2 Sheds; the "radar' thing is just the way I was trained - even after only two years since validation I have a feeling it would be very difficult to change now!!

It is of course possible for any ATSU (be it radar or not) to provide a FIS, but I agree that this may cause some confusion among pilots.

[Chilli Monster]

2 Sheds

So what you're saying is that you should change your callsign depending on the service you're providing, even if you are sat on a LARS position shall we say.

I think not - the grounds for confusion in that scenario are too horrendous to consider.

When I'm sat on Radar I'm Radar, no matter what service is being provided. When I'm 'Radar Off' I'm Approach, and can only give a FIS. It is up to the PILOT to understand the limitations of the service he has requested, not up to me to change my callsign.

I Suggest a read of MATS 1 APP E 3.1

CM

[Tower Ranger]

Surely in the AIR Pilot the frequencies notified for each A/D are also given the designated callsign Twr/App/Rad and so on.
Unfortunately for us our radar freq is notified as approach and our standy radar freq is notified as radar .

Personally if I`m sat in front of the tube I`m Radar and if we`re bandboxed I`m Approach.

[1261]

Field In Sight obviously got bored with such technicalities some time ago! :)

[No Further Requirements]

Why not APPROACH all the time? You should be telling the pilot what type of service he/she is getting - if it is radar, then you IDENTIFY them. If it is procedural, then you do not. Works for me. I know in Australia, the RADAR callsigns are used for aircraft getting a RIS outside controlled airspace but not under RADAR control. APPROACH/DEPARTURES/CENTRE is usually used for all control positions regardless if they have radar or not. And lets face it, Australia has only about 10% radar coverage anyway! Big place this. Cheers,

NFR.

[professor yaffle]

well at the risk of getting jumped on...!
i call myself "approach" to a/c who are getting a non-radar service
and "radar" to them that are
thats the way i was trained and it makes sense to me, and hopefully the guys i'm giving a service to...

prof

[GroundBound]

Doesn't this mish-mash of replies indicate precisely why F-I-S posed the question? It seems to be different from location to location and from State to State.

F-I-S, you can't determine the ATC service from the callsign! If you haven't been told "identified" then you are not receiving any radar service - that's the "keyword".

[Hooligan Bill]

Given that the callsign for Approach Control is 'Approach' and that Mats Pt1 Section 3 Chapter 1 1.1 states that an approach control unit shall provide:

a) approach control service with or without the aid of radar

then when radar is available 'Approach' covers both situations.

[Field In Sight]

1261: I only check PPrune in the week at work. This makes the day go slightly quicker :) , hence the apparent lack of interest.

Groundbound: I understand that you are informed of the service you receive and that is the only service you should expect. This is what makes me question the point of having this separate call sign in the first place.

So if you can receive a RADAR Service from an APPROACH call sign, what's the point of having a RADAR call sign at all.

Personally, I think it was a way of "showing off" when the facility had radar installed, in much the same way as Heathrow has a DIRECTOR to show how big and importand it is :D

[Hooligan Bill]

Field In Sight wrote

So if you can receive a RADAR Service from an APPROACH call sign, what's the point of having a RADAR call sign at all.

Personally, I think it was a way of "showing off" when the facility had radar installed, in much the same way as Heathrow has a DIRECTOR to show how big and importand it is


It is historical, the procedural controller used to be top dog and this is reflected in the Approach and Area control sections were it basically says that the radar controller can not do anything without the approval of the procedural controller.

I believe years ago the radar controller would only be used to solve conflictions that could not be done procedurally, hence two different frequencies. These days more often than not the procedural and radar controller are one in the same.

[GroundBound]

Hooligan has it about right.

Many (many!) years ago (60-70s), in Area control the "D" man was a procedural controller and Radar was just used for the climb/descents to get aircraft to/from their levels. Both controllers worked the same frequency, and the "D" man was in charge - he choose the cruising levels, and allowed Radar to do the tricky bits where procedural couldn't work (e.g. get somebody through someone else's level). Also, the radar systems did not have full coverage, and could not provide a 100% service - they were also inclined to fail, sometimes at very awkward moments, and no back-ups!

The callsign "Airways" was used to indicate "procedural" control, and "Radar" to indicate this vectoring process.

Much the same applied in Approach, as well, although there was sometimes a separate frequency for radar.

Over the years, things have evolved, Radar is (almost) everywhere (at least where there is significant traffic), and there is now the idea of a "service" type.

It is the "service-type" idea which has come in to make the picture clearer to the "man upstairs", and the ground callsign is just a (confusing?) left-over.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Personally, I think it was a way of "showing off"......... in much the same way as Heathrow has a DIRECTOR to show how big and importand it is >>

Well thank you, sir! I had no idea I was so well thought of!!!

HD

[FWA NATCA]

Field In Sight,

I'm a controller and I'm confused by the answers provided by my brethern from across the pond.

Anyway, in the US, Approach is used for acft inbound to the primary and or satellite airports, and for overflights.

Departure is used for acft that have departed the primary or satellite airports within my airspace.

Granted I have good Radar coverage where I can see acft on the runway at FWA and I can see them out of 1800 off my satellite airports.

Things are so much easier over here,

Mike

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I may be wrong, but I thought that "RADAR" only applied to an ATCRU.

I know Brize still uses the term Radar but that's because they couldn't think of a way to differentaite between LARS and Radar Approach when they lost their Area Radar status.

[Chilli Monster]

WBS

In the military - yes, but not in the civil world.

MATS 1 App E 3.1. They give a table of ATC service against R/T suffix used.

It's interesting to note the comments about Radar:ATC Service - Approach Radar Control Arrival / Departure.

Suffix - Director / Departure (Radar when tasks combined/ Arrival (when approved))

So reading that suggests that if you're a Radar controller doing arrivals and departures then radar is what you say.

CM

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

CM, that's why you have a yellow book and I am a mere military puke.:D :D :D

[Chilli Monster]

WBS

Maybe I have got a 'yellow peril' - but I still remember my roots ;)

All the best :)

CM

[flower]

Field in site, If you place 50 ATco's in a room you will get at least 50 different answers.
It does depend on where and how you were trained.
Personally if I am sat in front of a radar I am always "radar", if I should answer the phone for the radar controller as they are busy I call myself "approach" as I would then be providing a procedural service (some of us do still hold those ratings in Nats and no I am not old)



:rolleyes:

[turn right heading 365]

All very confusing. At our unit some of us who can't remember who we are just use the callsign with no suffix. At least then you don't call yourself app or rad when you're in the twr and vice versa. All very illegal of course but hey!

[ShyTorque]

It does get a little confusing at times. I regularly fly past one such airfield (Coventry) that sometimes has radar available, sometimes not.

Sometimes I wish a radar info service, sometimes in better weather I am happy with a flight info.

I get round the problem by calling just the airfield name on Approach freq. and waiting for the ATC reply, suffixed with "approach" or "radar" before making the appropriate request.

Sometimes, if it's obviously very busy for the "radar" controller we just ask for flight info anyway to help ease his workload a bit.