Difference between Approach/Departure & Radar.
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Difference between Approach/Departure & Radar.
What's the difference between the use of ATSU call signs Approach/Departure and Radar.
I have called up before by doing the initial call i.e.
"Hawarden APPROACH this is G-ABCD"
and the reply was
"G-ABCD Hawarden RADAR Pass Your Details".
Obviously this is because they had Radar available.
I have read that the callsign Approach is used for a non-radar procedural service, but I fly from Liverpool, who do have Radar, and it's Liverpool Approach???
Also when departing, I contact Liverpool Approach not Departure?
Is that reserved for when the Approach/Departure frequency is not combined.
Thanks
I have called up before by doing the initial call i.e.
"Hawarden APPROACH this is G-ABCD"
and the reply was
"G-ABCD Hawarden RADAR Pass Your Details".
Obviously this is because they had Radar available.
I have read that the callsign Approach is used for a non-radar procedural service, but I fly from Liverpool, who do have Radar, and it's Liverpool Approach???
Also when departing, I contact Liverpool Approach not Departure?
Is that reserved for when the Approach/Departure frequency is not combined.
Thanks
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Not Quite..
When outside controlled airspace
'XXX Radar' when radar is available and controller wiilling to provide, BUT you will NOT be receiving a Radar service until you have
1 ) been identified AND
2) ATCO has stated that you are in receipt of a radar service.
'XXX Approach' does not necessarily mean that radar won't be available, but that at the moment you request a radar service it is not available.
Oh well, made sense when I wrote it!!!
When outside controlled airspace
'XXX Radar' when radar is available and controller wiilling to provide, BUT you will NOT be receiving a Radar service until you have
1 ) been identified AND
2) ATCO has stated that you are in receipt of a radar service.
'XXX Approach' does not necessarily mean that radar won't be available, but that at the moment you request a radar service it is not available.
Oh well, made sense when I wrote it!!!
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At the particular unit you mention (EGNR) the situation is thus:
The tower generally provides an aerodrome control service (callsign "tower") and a procedural approach control service (callsign "approach") on 124.5 and 123.35 respectively. This is known as "bandboxing"; i.e. one controller providing two services on different frequencies at the same time.
As soon as a radar service is required, the tower controller can no longer do both at the same time (it's against the law). A second controller (sitting at the radar screen behind the curtain at NR) will take over 123.35 and provide an approach radar service (callsign "radar").
Most larger airports (including Liverpool) are unable to bandbox tower and approach services as they provide 24hr radar. However, the callsign "approach" is frequently used by controllers when providing an approach radar service - they are theoretically providing both an approach control service (for example to non-squawking FIS traffic) and an approach radar service (for example to IFR traffic) on the same frequency at the same time. For the sake of convenience, most controllers will use one callsign or the other rather than switching between the two.
In practice (at PH, anyway) it seems to be the older controllers who call themselves "approach" on the r/t, and we youngsters who call ourselves "radar"!!
If you're not confused now, you never will be......
The tower generally provides an aerodrome control service (callsign "tower") and a procedural approach control service (callsign "approach") on 124.5 and 123.35 respectively. This is known as "bandboxing"; i.e. one controller providing two services on different frequencies at the same time.
As soon as a radar service is required, the tower controller can no longer do both at the same time (it's against the law). A second controller (sitting at the radar screen behind the curtain at NR) will take over 123.35 and provide an approach radar service (callsign "radar").
Most larger airports (including Liverpool) are unable to bandbox tower and approach services as they provide 24hr radar. However, the callsign "approach" is frequently used by controllers when providing an approach radar service - they are theoretically providing both an approach control service (for example to non-squawking FIS traffic) and an approach radar service (for example to IFR traffic) on the same frequency at the same time. For the sake of convenience, most controllers will use one callsign or the other rather than switching between the two.
In practice (at PH, anyway) it seems to be the older controllers who call themselves "approach" on the r/t, and we youngsters who call ourselves "radar"!!
If you're not confused now, you never will be......
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The curtain was still there when I visited in April!
The colour displays are very nice; same as ours in fact!
Friendly staff, nice unit in fact. Shame I don't have a procedural rating or met ticket.....
The colour displays are very nice; same as ours in fact!
Friendly staff, nice unit in fact. Shame I don't have a procedural rating or met ticket.....
1261
Perhaps the older hands are quite sensible. Personally, I think that it is confusing the issue if one uses the callsign "......... Radar" to a pilot who is very definitely not in receipt of a radar service. I would always use the callsign "....... Approach", then subsequently "...... Radar" as and when a radar sevice was provided.
I wish that SRG and rating training were a bit hotter on this one.
TS
Perhaps the older hands are quite sensible. Personally, I think that it is confusing the issue if one uses the callsign "......... Radar" to a pilot who is very definitely not in receipt of a radar service. I would always use the callsign "....... Approach", then subsequently "...... Radar" as and when a radar sevice was provided.
I wish that SRG and rating training were a bit hotter on this one.
TS
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As I see the regs "Radar" can only be used if you have radar information available in all of your assigned airspace, and can perform radar service if requested by a customer. E.g if you work in a tower with both twr/app bandboxed, vectoring aicraft might require more attention then you can spare.
Here at Endu we cannot use "radar" because we only have radar coverage down to roughly 7000ft, and uses procedural control below that. (It sucks btw..........
)
Here at Endu we cannot use "radar" because we only have radar coverage down to roughly 7000ft, and uses procedural control below that. (It sucks btw..........
)
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2 Sheds; the "radar' thing is just the way I was trained - even after only two years since validation I have a feeling it would be very difficult to change now!!
It is of course possible for any ATSU (be it radar or not) to provide a FIS, but I agree that this may cause some confusion among pilots.
It is of course possible for any ATSU (be it radar or not) to provide a FIS, but I agree that this may cause some confusion among pilots.
Last edited by 1261; 8th Sep 2002 at 11:51.
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2 Sheds
So what you're saying is that you should change your callsign depending on the service you're providing, even if you are sat on a LARS position shall we say.
I think not - the grounds for confusion in that scenario are too horrendous to consider.
When I'm sat on Radar I'm Radar, no matter what service is being provided. When I'm 'Radar Off' I'm Approach, and can only give a FIS. It is up to the PILOT to understand the limitations of the service he has requested, not up to me to change my callsign.
I Suggest a read of MATS 1 APP E 3.1
CM
So what you're saying is that you should change your callsign depending on the service you're providing, even if you are sat on a LARS position shall we say.
I think not - the grounds for confusion in that scenario are too horrendous to consider.
When I'm sat on Radar I'm Radar, no matter what service is being provided. When I'm 'Radar Off' I'm Approach, and can only give a FIS. It is up to the PILOT to understand the limitations of the service he has requested, not up to me to change my callsign.
I Suggest a read of MATS 1 APP E 3.1
CM
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Surely in the AIR Pilot the frequencies notified for each A/D are also given the designated callsign Twr/App/Rad and so on.
Unfortunately for us our radar freq is notified as approach and our standy radar freq is notified as radar .
Personally if I`m sat in front of the tube I`m Radar and if we`re bandboxed I`m Approach.
Unfortunately for us our radar freq is notified as approach and our standy radar freq is notified as radar .
Personally if I`m sat in front of the tube I`m Radar and if we`re bandboxed I`m Approach.
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Why not APPROACH all the time? You should be telling the pilot what type of service he/she is getting - if it is radar, then you IDENTIFY them. If it is procedural, then you do not. Works for me. I know in Australia, the RADAR callsigns are used for aircraft getting a RIS outside controlled airspace but not under RADAR control. APPROACH/DEPARTURES/CENTRE is usually used for all control positions regardless if they have radar or not. And lets face it, Australia has only about 10% radar coverage anyway! Big place this. Cheers,
NFR.
NFR.
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well at the risk of getting jumped on...!
i call myself "approach" to a/c who are getting a non-radar service
and "radar" to them that are
thats the way i was trained and it makes sense to me, and hopefully the guys i'm giving a service to...
prof
i call myself "approach" to a/c who are getting a non-radar service
and "radar" to them that are
thats the way i was trained and it makes sense to me, and hopefully the guys i'm giving a service to...
prof
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Doesn't this mish-mash of replies indicate precisely why F-I-S posed the question? It seems to be different from location to location and from State to State.
F-I-S, you can't determine the ATC service from the callsign! If you haven't been told "identified" then you are not receiving any radar service - that's the "keyword".
F-I-S, you can't determine the ATC service from the callsign! If you haven't been told "identified" then you are not receiving any radar service - that's the "keyword".
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Given that the callsign for Approach Control is 'Approach' and that Mats Pt1 Section 3 Chapter 1 1.1 states that an approach control unit shall provide:
a) approach control service with or without the aid of radar
then when radar is available 'Approach' covers both situations.
a) approach control service with or without the aid of radar
then when radar is available 'Approach' covers both situations.
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1261: I only check PPrune in the week at work. This makes the day go slightly quicker 
, hence the apparent lack of interest.
Groundbound: I understand that you are informed of the service you receive and that is the only service you should expect. This is what makes me question the point of having this separate call sign in the first place.
So if you can receive a RADAR Service from an APPROACH call sign, what's the point of having a RADAR call sign at all.
Personally, I think it was a way of "showing off" when the facility had radar installed, in much the same way as Heathrow has a DIRECTOR to show how big and importand it is
, hence the apparent lack of interest.Groundbound: I understand that you are informed of the service you receive and that is the only service you should expect. This is what makes me question the point of having this separate call sign in the first place.
So if you can receive a RADAR Service from an APPROACH call sign, what's the point of having a RADAR call sign at all.
Personally, I think it was a way of "showing off" when the facility had radar installed, in much the same way as Heathrow has a DIRECTOR to show how big and importand it is
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Field In Sight wrote
It is historical, the procedural controller used to be top dog and this is reflected in the Approach and Area control sections were it basically says that the radar controller can not do anything without the approval of the procedural controller.
I believe years ago the radar controller would only be used to solve conflictions that could not be done procedurally, hence two different frequencies. These days more often than not the procedural and radar controller are one in the same.
So if you can receive a RADAR Service from an APPROACH call sign, what's the point of having a RADAR call sign at all.
Personally, I think it was a way of "showing off" when the facility had radar installed, in much the same way as Heathrow has a DIRECTOR to show how big and importand it is
Personally, I think it was a way of "showing off" when the facility had radar installed, in much the same way as Heathrow has a DIRECTOR to show how big and importand it is
I believe years ago the radar controller would only be used to solve conflictions that could not be done procedurally, hence two different frequencies. These days more often than not the procedural and radar controller are one in the same.
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Hooligan has it about right.
Many (many!) years ago (60-70s), in Area control the "D" man was a procedural controller and Radar was just used for the climb/descents to get aircraft to/from their levels. Both controllers worked the same frequency, and the "D" man was in charge - he choose the cruising levels, and allowed Radar to do the tricky bits where procedural couldn't work (e.g. get somebody through someone else's level). Also, the radar systems did not have full coverage, and could not provide a 100% service - they were also inclined to fail, sometimes at very awkward moments, and no back-ups!
The callsign "Airways" was used to indicate "procedural" control, and "Radar" to indicate this vectoring process.
Much the same applied in Approach, as well, although there was sometimes a separate frequency for radar.
Over the years, things have evolved, Radar is (almost) everywhere (at least where there is significant traffic), and there is now the idea of a "service" type.
It is the "service-type" idea which has come in to make the picture clearer to the "man upstairs", and the ground callsign is just a (confusing?) left-over.
Many (many!) years ago (60-70s), in Area control the "D" man was a procedural controller and Radar was just used for the climb/descents to get aircraft to/from their levels. Both controllers worked the same frequency, and the "D" man was in charge - he choose the cruising levels, and allowed Radar to do the tricky bits where procedural couldn't work (e.g. get somebody through someone else's level). Also, the radar systems did not have full coverage, and could not provide a 100% service - they were also inclined to fail, sometimes at very awkward moments, and no back-ups!
The callsign "Airways" was used to indicate "procedural" control, and "Radar" to indicate this vectoring process.
Much the same applied in Approach, as well, although there was sometimes a separate frequency for radar.
Over the years, things have evolved, Radar is (almost) everywhere (at least where there is significant traffic), and there is now the idea of a "service" type.
It is the "service-type" idea which has come in to make the picture clearer to the "man upstairs", and the ground callsign is just a (confusing?) left-over.