Hopeless at landings

[ChiSau]

Anybody able to give me any comfort/advice on landings?

I'm a new student pilot (19 hours, 2 exams) trying to get my PPL getting frustrated that I still haven't gone solo.

Seem to be progressing ok through the syllabus, but have had only an hour or so circuit time with an instructor (it seems that every time I turn up to fly there's a northerly gusting straight across the runway ay 15kts!).

Roughly how many hours has it taken people doing circuits to get sufficiently happy with your landings to go solo?? Mine, so far, are pretty ropey!

Any advice appreciated! :)

[Thumpango]

ChiSau,

take a look down the topics on this forum. If you look at the "Flat Landings" thread you will have all the information you need to make those landings nice and gentle! I was in the same position as yourself until I got advice from the thread.

I have been in the circuit now for ages, but should go solo soon after about 26hrs, but it varies according to the frequency of your lessons and learning ability. I had long gaps between lessons initially and spend the first part of the next lesson catching up to my previous standard.

Good luck, you will get there!

[poetpilot]

...and the answer is........

"It's as long as a piece of string" !!!!

Varies tremendously upon age, skill, co-ordination level of student as well as factors such as weather, instructor compatibility, length of time between lessons, etc etc.

But a few basic questions to you.....

1. Is the "crosswind" situation being brought up as an excuse by the instructor, or is the instructor still working on your general flying handling abilities?

If answer is "crosswind" then could there be other fields you could use for practice?

2. Where are you up to in terms of handling? What exercises have you done, and are you repeating certain exercises (and why?)

3. Have you mentioned your concerns to the instructor? What did he/she say?

4. How much ground briefing have you had from instructor on circuits and landings?

Forming a picture of where you are and why on your course is important before anyone responds (and possibly jumps to conclusions).

[big.al]

I think you'll find a lot of people went through the same 'pain' you are encountering, me included.

I was fortunate to learn on a runway which was 6000ft of tarmac with (generally) lights winds, and still couldn't get the landings right for quite some time. I just kept flaring too high, and although I know that there's been a 70's revival recently, flares that big are just not the order of the day...

I solo-d at 12 hrs but was not happy with my landings until I'd done about 10 hours solo, and at least six hours of pure circuits.

It all comes together eventually, I guess the simple answer is plently of practice. I now land on 350m of bumpy grass without much difficulty in a C150, so I'm sure you'll get the hang of it, weather permitting....

Good luck, and enjoy it.

[FlyingForFun]

ChiSau,

You say you've only spent 1 hour in the circuit. It is certainly not normal to feel confident after just 1 hour in the circuit - most people I've spoken to seem take a very minimum of about 5, and that really is a minimum! (Of course, there'll always be one or two who do it faster than everyone else...)

Am I right in thinking that your instructor thinks the cross-wind is too much for you to handle, although he's happy to fly in it himself? And therefore you're still getting lessons in, but he's introducing other parts of the syllabus while the wind is not suitable for working on circuits? That sounds perfectly accepable to me. Of course, you'll want to get some serious cross-wind practice in once you've mastered landing without too much cross-wind. But you certainly don't want to start out like that - it's hard enough without having other obstacles thrown in your path! (But once you want a cross-wind to practice in, you won't get a windy day for months!)

As poetpilot says, you should mention concerns to your instructor (or to the school's chief instructor if you don't like your instructor's answer). But it sounds to me like you're progressing pretty well, but being unlucky with the weather. If that's the case, you'd better get used to it - it's a regular part of PPL flying in the UK! :D

FFF
---------------

[Evo7]

You say you've only spent 1 hour in the circuit. It is certainly not normal to feel confident after just 1 hour in the circuit - most people I've spoken to seem take a very minimum of about 5, and that really is a minimum! (Of course, there'll always be one or two who do it faster than everyone else...)


It took me 8 hours in the circuit before I went solo, and I only started to feel comfortable during the last two or three. The first lesson of circuits was a nightmare - I was all over the place, and couldn't keep up with the aeroplane. I thought I'd never be able to land it...

[Whirlybird]

If I understood your post correctly, you've been going through the syllabus, but not flying circuits because of the crosswind. That sounds absolutely fine to me. Try not to get obsessed with going solo. It's normal; we all do it! But as everyone has pointed out, it's dependent on so many things, and in the long run it doesn't matter. If you can, just enjoy your flying and learn, and eventually you'll get the weather and as many hours as YOU need to go solo. Oh, and after that, you may forget how to land and have to learn all over again. :eek: That's normal too.

I realise this advice is almost impossible to take - been there, I couldn't do it either - but it still seemed worth saying.

[ChiSau]

Hey guys - thanks very much for the speedy feedback and encouragement. Now I don't feel quite as slow!

For those that asked, I've gone on to do PFLs, slow flight, stalling etc and am currently on navigation and diversion, so I think the instructors are doing their best to push me on despite the lack of opportunity to do circuits.

As a new boy to the site, this seems like a great way to get advice, compare notes etc. My non-flying friends are already starting to glaze over if I mention flying and by definition aren't much help!

Am taking next week off work and have lessons booked every day to try and get some more hours in - so am praying for good weather!


:rolleyes:

[Julian]

Dont worry about it, everyone has their sticking point (mine was PFLs!). I got cut lose with my landings after 18 hours but there were students on the same course as me who were hitting 25-30 hours and still mucking up their landings .... until as if by magic .....POOOWWW! It just clicks!

You will get it eventually just dont get yourself worked up and have a read of the flat landings thread - its got some very goodpointers in it.

Julian.

[sean1]

Work at your speed control during the base and final/short finals.
I find it was a great help when I had my approach speed nailed.

[G SXTY]

At the risk of labouring the point, 1 hour of circuits is absolutely nothing, so don’t worry if you’re feeling a little bit wobbly. (Does everyone else remember the joys of turning downwind and trying desperately to remember all that BUMFFISCH stuff, getting the downwind call in, and trying to keep the thing somewhere between 1,000’ & 1,500’?) It’s all a bit overwhelming at first, but as the hours build it will come together.

I found FS2000 extremely useful for practicing circuits (don’t laugh) - you’ll get used to rolling out on the correct headings & can practice pre-landing checks in real-time, as well as getting the correct runway picture on approach – and it’s an awful lot cheaper than the real thing.

Difficult to give you much advice on landings, apart from the usual stuff about looking towards the far end of the runway as you start the flare, and getting your approach speed right. It’s all down to practice (and currency – 3 weeks without flying, and my first couple of landings are real bone-crunchers). The best moral support I ever had was from a BA146 FO, who started out on the F27. He reckoned that, in a year’s worth of landings, he had 2 or possibly 3 that he was really happy with. I stopped worrying about it after that. :)

[BottleMerchant]

You might find this link to a Time To Solo calculator useful

http://www.omen.com/f/timetosolo.htm

Rather tongue in cheek, but in my case it was only one hour out. ;)

[Don D Cake]

Stick with it and don't worry. I went through a phase of thinking I would never be able to land an aeroplane. I nearly gave up. I couldn't cope with crosswinds, that is I couldn't cope with controlling the flare and adjusting the yaw and controlling the drift all at once. If I concentrated on one aspect the other two would suffer. My instructor took me away from the circuit and we did other stuff like navigation, slow flight etc. Then I had 5 hours of either calm winds or wind straight down the runway and I soloed.

During the last few hours of circuits it kind of clicked into place. I began to see the "whole picture" crosswind landings rather than each induividual component in turn. It was a weird experience.

Keep going, if I can do it, anyone can ;)

[Aussie Andy]

Hey! I got my license last year, and I'm still not happy with all of my landings ;) But I find thats half the fun, i.e. trying to continuously improve - like, say, golf etc... the learning curve never ends!

[Ace Rimmer]

ChiSau don't get too hung up on landings or the solo thing as others have said enjoy your flying. Eventually the weather ewill co-operate and because of the experience yuogained doing PFLs and so on will stand you in good stead especially when it comes to glide approaches.
The best piece of adivce I was ever even about landings is "fly along the runway at about 2ft make sure power is at idle and "then try not to land" works every time (well almost every time)
The other great truism is "a good landing is the product of a good approach get the speed right on final and pulling off a good one is a lot easier. It just clicks one day and pretty soon after your instructor will say "right once round...don't forget if you are not happy go around...have fun"

[Elvis21]

I went solo after 4 hrs but I had near perfect weather every day and an amazing instructor.

It seems strange that you have only done 1 hour in the circuit but had nearlt 18 hrs of lessons:confused:

[HelenD]

Dont get frustrated just yet. I had done 65 hours before I got solo and I still have yet to get solo at my true home airfield or on the type that I have most of my hours on. So I know what frustration is. I have however completed the rest of the course now bar Ex 17. Good luck

[28thJuly2001]

Elvis have you actually read through the thread, because he explained it perfectly well why he only has 1 hour in the circuit.
As for me , I soloed after (checks log book) eeeeekkkkkk 9 hours of circuits and 21 hours total.
I still enjoyed the QXC much more than my first solo. As for messing up the landings, I now have almost 100 hours and my last landing was worse than my first solo.
Walt,,

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Join the club!

[djk]

ChiSau,

I'd say you're putting too much pressure on yourself to go solo. take you time. one best advice I was given was while doing my pre-landing checks was to extend it with telling myself to relax at the end. And believe it or not, it worked.
Just concentrate on each individual landing, and don't beat yourself up too badly if you fluff it up.

[ChiSau]

Can I ask a follow-up on landings?

I guess like everyone else, I have a number of instructors teaching me - depending on their availability. Mostly its the school's fulltime instructors but occassionally its part-time instructors (some of whom are commercial pilots - v impressive).

Anyway - I'm learning in C152 and my full time instructor favours landing with two stages of flap - feels it gives better control, less float, less severe flare required etc and one of my part-time instructors (not a commerical piolt) likes to have full flap on approach.

No biggie clearly and I've asked to learn with two stages to be consistent, but has anyone got a view on this?

Thanks :p

[Elvis21]

Guess it may depend on speed. More flap = less speed on landing. All personal preference

[Aussie Andy]

I've not flown a C152 more than once, so can't comment on the aprticular aircraft, but I recently heard from an instructor who teaches on PA28's that they usually have students only use 2 stages of flap instead of the usual full flap as it gives better airspeed margins over the stall, which may be required in gusty conditions (the instructor was at a gusty island location!) and generally more room for error in this dept. for early stage students. They later get them using full flap. I guess its down to the instructors preference - but this may be whats behind the different approaches? Why not ask over on the Flying Instructors (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=17) forum?

[Kermit 180]

Different people learn at different rates, and much of it has to do with how often you are flying, and what the conditions are like when you do fly.

As for the question regarding flap use, the use of 20 degrees flap (two notches as some of you put it) leads to better stability in crosswind or turbulent conditions, but I teach 30 degrees (3 notches) and 65 knots over the fence as the normal. Using less flap leads to a reduced nose down tendancy, and therefore makes flaring easier, but has the disadvantage of a longer float (contrary to what you have written), and therefore an increase in the length of runway used.

Some tips for landing: fly a stable approach, learn to recognise when you are high or low, fast or slow, and know how to correct it before it gets too far out from the normal profile. Ask your instructor to demonstrate these if you are unsure, sometimes a redomonstration can work wonders. Use attitudes to help attain airspeeds (which also keeps your eyes outside more), and trim to keep the aircraft at those attitudes. Use an aiming point on the runway, as you round out work your eyes further down the runway so you avoid 'ground rush'. as you flare, look ahead and keep straight using rudder.

Hope this helps.

Kermie;)

[ChiSau]

Thanks guys - particularly Kermie. My error re the float clearly (not my instructor's).

I'll definately concentrate on the trim rather more tomorrow.

Thks

:D

[FlyingForFun]

ChiSau,

For the definitive answer, check the Pilots Operating Handbook (POH) for the particular aircraft. The school should be able to tell you where to find it.

I've never flown a C152, so I can't comment on that type. But, on the PA28, I don't think it's to do with the margin above the stall, as Aussie Andy says, although he's close. What happens is that, with less flap, the stall speed is higher. Therefore the approach speed is higher. Therefore, in gusty conditions, the gust speed is a lower proportion of your approach speed, and so gusts will have less effect on the aircraft.

Personally, I use full flaps in a PA28, except in gusty conditions. This gives a lower stalling speed, hence a lower landing speed, and it takes less time/distance to brake on the runway. Now I'm flying a Europa, and I have no choice but to use full flaps, since the gear is connected to the flaps - if the flaps are up, the gear's up too! :eek:

:D

FFF
----------

[Elvis21]

and if you come in with 30 degrees of flap, don't change your mind at the last minute and decide that you wnat 20 degrees. C-152 don't like too many harsh landings:D

[Whirlybird]

ChiSau,

It may not be possible at your school, but it's a heck of a lot easier to learn ONE landing techinque with ONE instructor. Try and see if you can't stay with the same chap. If you insist the school may let you. Once you can land, then is the time to try other variations.

[Ace Rimmer]

ChiSau
The other thing that may help is getting used to the idea of using your periferal vision in the latter stages of the flare (if you are holding off properly you won’t be able to see down the runway straight ahead cos the nose will be in the way) the second thing which nobody has mentioned so far (I don’t think so anyway) is if you’ve flared too high or bounce it have no fear, just open up and go around (same thing applies if you just can’t get happy with an approach earlier on). No instuctor or any other pilot worth their salt will hold it against you, in fact they will probably commend you for your airmanship. Remember what goes around lands better.

The other thing I’ve heard on the flap setting question especially for early on students is that with two lots of flap (on a PA28 anyway) the go-around is easier because there’s no immediate need to take drag flap off when climbing away. I always use full flap (unless its gusty) if you got it use it that’s my motto.

[tomahawk1673]

Some excellent advice so far.

I always landed hard, never bounced. However, most of my landings are fine now. This is because one day i decided to trim on final, and I could suddenly "feel" the aircraft in the flare. My PPL instructor never taught this. Nail your approach speed, get the attitude and TRIM.

try it :)

[AerBabe]

The C152 is lovely to land. It is pretty stable, and doesn't float too much.
Trim. All the time. Keep one hand on it most of the way down. Keep your airspeed at around 65 kt, and two stages of flap. You can worry about three stages, or flapless later.
Try and learn to fly by attitude, rather than airspeed. Learn how much ground will be above the cowling, and then occasionally glance down to make sure your speed is ok.
Once you're at the final stages of... well final... forget the trim and the airspeed, and keep your eyes out the front.
Are you taking off all the power before you flare? If so, try leaving a little on. 1200 rpm will be enough to help make the whole process a little smoother. Again, you can worry about doing it 'right' once you've got the hang of the flare.

Finally, how do you know when to flare? Keep pointing at the ground until you hear your instructor take a sharp intake of breath, and then pull back ;)

[Who has control?]

Another small point - always try to have your seat in the same position. I know it sounds silly, but you are aiming for consistancy & this is another variable you can eliminate.

Altering the seat height will change 'the picture'. If your instructor wants you to put the top of the cowling on the end on the runway when you flare and the seat is right down, you won't flare much.
Conversely if the seat is up, you will have to flare more, which is a good thing, as long as you don't balloon!!

[Elvis21]

Not sure how many people would subscribe to this (and I am braced for a special PPRuNe caning) but here goes.

My instructor told me that you knew you were on the right track with the flair if just before you touched down you heard the stall warner kick in. Just a suggestion;)

[bottieburp]

Shoot me down instructors, but I used to instruct too.

Back in the old days I really couldn't afford to learn to fly(even at £6.40 per hour!). I therefore disciplined myself to book a lesson only if the weather was right for the exercise and would cancel if it wasn't.

Peer pressure dictates that the instructor will always relieve you of your money.

However, you are the customer. If you are 'early circuits' then the last thing you want is a howling crosswnd - something that - well lets face it - plenty of pilots with a thousand hours or more can get horribly wrong.

Better to get some in when the wind is favourable and not spend your money on a long frustrated face.

Crosswind landings are a natural progression in your training. Learn to land - then learn to land in less than perfect conditions. Seems sensible to me.

By applying this discipline - which in practise didn't cause too much anxiety to the school in view of the fact we had more than 1 runway and i worked shifts - I had completed my full PPL sylabus, including my solo cross country - all non radio in a taildraggin' Condor - in just 26 hours, having solo'd at 11. I did my GFT at 39 hours.

So - the message is - if you can afford it and the 'hours to solo' don't bother you (they shouldn't bother you a jot - many top professionals struggled initially) carry on as you are.

If not - pick your days, get off solo quickly and build on that experience. Once you can get the roundout right - booting the drift off comes with a bit more practise. However, trying to get it all right, and consistently right to a standard that your instructor is happy to send you off? - thats another story! He won't in a 15kt crosswind - never.

[Ian_Wannabe]

Hey there,
After only one hour of these things I'm not suprised you're not happy!

It took me about 4 hours just to get the circuits right, remembering to keep centerline after liftoff, remembering to keep at the circuit level, remembering to make the pre - landing checks 'BUMPFISH', call abeam on downwind, lower each stage of flap at the right time etc etc.

These are all important to do well, as a good approach makes for a good landing.

I'd say - concentrate on your height, and speed mostly as if you're 200ft too high on final it makes for a poor landing! Always aim for the numbers and maintain your approach speed to the knot, as if you're too fast or slow it has a big impact on the quality of the landing.

As with a lot of other people, after my first hour I was feeling as if I wouldn't be unable to cope with everything which you have to do in that short space of time.

Give it 3 hours and you'll be fine - You'll have BUMPFISH off in 0.5 seconds! (I'm just kiddin' for those who may jump me for rushing important checks ;) )

Ian

[a pilot]

It is amazing how many bad instructors are out there,low time pilots that try to teach what they dont know,take your money and kill your confidence.Anyone that wants to fly can just fly with other pilots who will be happy to teach, and do only the required hours with an instructor,perfectly legal.

[ChiSau]

Just a quick update on the landing problems you guys helped me with.

Had the week off work last week and flew all week and both the weekends :) .

Took all your advice on board which helped a lot - to the point where they even sent me off on my first solo :D :D . Fabulous feeling - quite extraordinary to be up there on your own for the first time, though pretty scary too. Talked to myself the entire way around the circuit and even managed my best landing to date!

Anyway, cracked through the week, did my first solo nav (also really really good fun), have done 4 exams (3 more to go?) and up to about 39 hours so am getting closer...

Just sorry to be down here typing this rather than up there flying!

[FlyingForFun]

Hey, Well Done ChiSau!

Was especially nice to hear that your first solo landing was so good! My first solo landing was also one of my best. But I made up for it with my second solo, when I did three of my worst landings ever!

FFF
-------------

[LowNSlow]

ChiSau it all clicked in the end then :D Congrats on getting over the hurdle!

[Kermit 180]

Good news re the first solo! Keep up the good work.

Kerms;)

[sean1]

well done,welcome to the club!

[legin]

dear ChiSau,


I had the same problem when I was halfway thru my private license.I totally feel for you.Same with when I first switched from a 152 to a 172.. the latter floated like hell.I couldn't seem to land well consistently and it was very frustrating and demoralising.Then my instructor just told me not to think,just do.And the landing starts at the downwind leg, not flare.Also, my first flight instructor in Singapore emphasized greatly on speed and glide slope perception(if no VASI or PAPI).Just don't give up and believe in yourself.You'll make it. Cheers.