Avion Express A320 off-piste at Vilnius

[DaveReidUK]

No need to wait for that tug to pull you out of the mud when you have Joe Patroni in the LH seat:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x608/ly_nvl_1_58c7a513837d43b4545e97a35a7ffe5188fab26d.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1250x282/ly_nvl_track_6c449033a357206e3e336c5c92667bea7f2e448f.jpg

[Uplinker]

Is that an actual photo of this ? No spoilers up on the starboard wing...............or maybe just not visible on the dark side of that photo.

But they veered right ?

[Mr Good Cat]

Is that an actual photo of this ? No spoilers up on the starboard wing...............or maybe just not visible on the dark side of that photo.

But they veered right ?

If you zoom in you can see the spoilers are up on that wing, starting just outboard of the outer flap fairing working back towards the engine. It matches the other wing. I think it’s just the cloud of dirt and dust creating an illusion.

From the photo, one possible explanation is that a cat was at the controls and was distracted by the opportunity to chase the large bird visible in the foreground.

[EDLB]

Tea no biscuit session with the chief pilot?

[xetroV]

ATC, weather info and video:

https://youtu.be/cf8Fao0kZ-4?si=dGSC9y32pWHmo4M1

[NOC40]

huge yaw at 1:20... almost going sideways

[Dufo]

Awesome airmanship and safety culture.
I think the crew should be awarded for "avoiding the terminal and saving 500 lives".

[Consol]

There is an interesting thread elsewhere on this fine website detailing their terms and conditions and general operation. Make up your mind as to whether this is a career airline. Could be just bad luck.....

[rog747]

Avion Express LY- flying with their callsign outfit Nordvind.
Avion Express Malta 9H- are callsign South Wind

This LY- aircraft sustained substantial damage to the underside of the centre fuselage and wing flaps.


Avion have been operating in the UK for many years flying ACMI summer work for TUI, BA Euro, Easyjet and previously for Thomas Cook Airlines UK, Monarch?, and Titan.

[Opsbeatch]

From the photo, one possible explanation is that a cat was at the controls and was distracted by the opportunity to chase the large bird visible in the foreground.

I cannot like this comment more, proper belly laugh.
Thanks muchly!

OB

[oceancrosser]

Wondering if there will be any reaction at all from Lithuanian aviation authorities. Or maybe it will just get reregistered in Malta and all is good!

[Icejock]

Pay2Fly at its finest

[NG1]

SLF here, but question to the experts: after having experienced such a substantial detour through unpaved area, throwing up mud and whatever - would you continue at your own power? I'd be worried about any ingested mud, gravel, ice etc and rather shut down the engines? Furthermore I'd be worried about any damage to other aircraft parts, landing gear, hydraulics that might have a substantial impact on the ability of controlling the aircraft whilst taxyiing and / or increase the damage to the aircraft by taxiing to the stand?

[Gero]

SLF here, but question to the experts: after having experienced such a substantial detour through unpaved area, throwing up mud and whatever - would you continue at your own power? I'd be worried about any ingested mud, gravel, ice etc and rather shut down the engines? Furthermore I'd be worried about any damage to other aircraft parts, landing gear, hydraulics that might have a substantial impact on the ability of controlling the aircraft whilst taxyiing and / or increase the damage to the aircraft by taxiing to the stand?

Yes… especially engines could be damaged. Possibly with a fire outcome.

[procede]

A picture on the aviation herald shows clear damage to the underside. It seems to be to the wing-body fairing, so at least not primary structure: https://avherald.com/h?article=5147d9d5&opt=0

[EDLB]

I would think the dirt going through the engines will be way more expensive.

[spornrad]

video of the off-road trip. Remarkable landing gear side load performance:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1754107432865800319

[albatross]

Nice drift…must be a rally driver.
video of the off-road trip. Remarkable landing gear side load performance:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1754107432865800319

[KRviator]

Nice drift…must be a rally driver.Should've kept the right pedal in, would've been close to making that middle taxiway.

[DaveReidUK]

A picture on the aviation herald shows clear damage to the underside. It seems to be to the wing-body fairing, so at least not primary structure: https://avherald.com/h?article=5147d9d5&opt=0

If Avherald is to be believed, the aircraft dropped 1200 feet in 2 seconds:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x448/avion_express_a320_ly_nvl_vilnius_240203_map_f0f8562e42fdae0 d0d4d16a26fa73b1b73626166.jpg

I suspect not.

[Stationair8]

Scandinavian flick?


Little more stagger on the outside tyre?

[Consol]

Scandinavian flick?


Little more stagger on the outside tyre?
Thought that myself. On the full video it seems to enter a very hard turn to the right in a modest crosswind and a 5/5/5) runway. The rest is simply survival.

[procede]

If Avherald is to be believed, the aircraft dropped 1200 feet in 2 seconds:

My guess is that the transponder sends out the pressure altitude until there is weight on wheels. As Vilnius is at 200m/600 ft, this would account for half of the drop. A low pressure area could do the rest.

[DaveReidUK]

My guess is that the transponder sends out the pressure altitude until there is weight on wheels. As Vilnius is at 200m/600 ft, this would account for half of the drop. A low pressure area could do the rest.

Exactly that. Both facts that seem to have passed AH by. It would have been better to have no graphic at all than the misleading one - the actual touchdown appears to have been near the point labelled "FL011".

[Magplug]

From the X video all looks well until shortly after mainwheel touch down. He starts out fairly well right of centreline but then yaws quickly to the right as if the right main gear has gone into slush on the runway margin. Holding full reverse as he crosses the grass is guaranteed to trash the underbelly. With all that soft grass left ahead, stopping was not an issue. I imagine the main gear struts have seen some significant side-forces beyond design limits.

In what world is it safe to continue taxy to the terminal?

[Giuff]

From the X video all looks well until shortly after mainwheel touch down. He starts out fairly well right of centreline but then yaws quickly to the right as if the right main gear has gone into slush on the runway margin. Holding full reverse as he crosses the grass is guaranteed to trash the underbelly. With all that soft grass left ahead, stopping was not an issue. I imagine the main gear struts have seen some significant side-forces beyond design limits.

In what world is it safe to continue taxy to the terminal?

in P2F world mate

[procede]

in P2F world mate
They probably get a bonus for arriving at the gate on time, but they forgot to include a clause on the condition of the aircraft.

[Escape Path]

Oh good! So I wasn't the only one baffled by them carrying on and taxiing in as if nothing's just happened.

To the self-declared SLF above: Yes, I wouldn't move that aircraft an inch further until someone came and took a look to at least guarantee that everything's (mostly) in place and there's no leaking going on

[alfaman]

in P2F world mate
I hate to spoil the "have a pop at the new generation" thing, but I know of a case in the '80s where, not only did the crew not admit they'd been off piste, but due to low viz, the tracks on the grass were only discovered by Ops in the morning, when the aircraft was tucked up on stand, looking a bit sorry for itself. There's nothing new under the sun...

[FlexibleResponse]

I wonder if the autobrake was selected to Max and subsequently grabbed more on one side leading to the loss of directional control?

[Giuff]

I wonder if the autobrake was selected to Max and subsequently grabbed more on one side leading to the loss of directional control?

Max autobrake? Thats only for RTO

[nickler]

Was it a training flight? Possibly cadet training?

[Uplinker]

Could have been but the TRI/TRE is in the other seat with duplicate controls.

Maybe this was a crosswind landing, and they landed the nose gear while cock-eyed before pushing straight with the rudder ?


I wonder if the autobrake was [accidentally] selected to Max and subsequently grabbed more on one side leading to the loss of directional control?

(my added word; we don't ever land with max autobrake.)

I stand to be corrected but am fairly sure that Airbus FBW uses directional information from the ADIRS etc. to modify the auto-braking to stay straight. So tyres or brakes losing grip or whatever would not cause this sort of deviation.

It could have been a faulty reverser on the port engine maybe.

[vegassun]

Who knows, maybe mx came on and cleared it. "Could not duplicate. Ops check good, OK for cont. service."

[Magplug]

There seems to be symmetric reverse from the forward video.... and lots of it. If that was a P2F cadet landing then the trainer should not have let the aircraft stray so far towards the slush on the runway margin, as the result was entirely predictable

I once had an autobrake mishap on landing with autobrake low + idle planned. Clean dry runway... As the nosewheel touched down there was a sharp grab of one brake snatching and immediately releasing. This was followed by a BSCU 2 ECAM and the autobrake dropping out. The runway was nice and long and there was no upset to directional control. Rev Idle was held to 70kts where we tried the brakes which worked fine, as did the NWS. On inspection there was a flat spot on one of the tyres so draw your own conclusions about what happened. Playing back the QAR gave no indication of fault, neither did the FDR. Engineers changed both BSCUs as a precaution. I think the Airbus logic may have prevented a double main-tyre blowout that day, and possible runway excursion.

[RudderTrimZero]

Or worst of all...

"BITE check performed. No faults found."

[Fun_police]

I suspect the outside of the aircraft wasn’t the only thing that was brown…

[FlexibleResponse]

Max autobrake? Thats only for RTO

Agree, but selection of MAX inadvertently is not inhibited.

I have personally seen it inadvertently selected and used on landing on two occasions (without damage but with huge pilot eyes from extremely rapid decel) on A330.

And once it featured in an A320 accident where selection of Max Autobrake was selected intentionally after Flap Ext Abnormal and the aircraft departed the runway after 5 seconds in a very similar manner to this accident aircraft.

[Mike_tanaka]

Agree, but selection of MAX inadvertently is not inhibited.

I have personally seen it inadvertently selected and used on landing on two occasions (without damage but with huge pilot eyes from extremely rapid decel) on A330.

And once it featured in an A320 accident where selection of Max Autobrake was selected intentionally after Flap Ext Abnormal and the aircraft departed the runway after 5 seconds in a very similar manner to this accident aircraft.

As far as I am aware of (FCOM is not specific about it) Max Autobrake will not arm in-flight on more recent MSNs, I.e. Enhanced onwards.

[Klimax]

Pay2Fly at its finest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5B1izVJDKo

[Mike_tanaka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5B1izVJDKo

”I always wanted to have a life style that makes me feel like a nomad.”

High life expectations…

[FougaMagister]

The accident report (due to damage to the airframe and probably to runway edge lights, it will be classified as an accident) should make for interesting reading. One point overlooked in previous comments: weather conditions, which may have contributed to reduced friction (greasy runway or aquaplaning). I wonder what Runway Condition Codes were passed on the ATIS or by ATC (even at major airports, these are usually several hours old and therefore largely useless in determining braking action or landing run).

Cheers :cool:

[Magplug]

Mindful of their corporate liability many airfields no longer report runway Mu meter readings but only pass on pilot reports. Most snow/ice excursions these days happen because the first 1/3 of the runway is fine, having already hosted many landings today. However the upwind end can remain as icy as hell, well into a period of operations as nobody has been that far down the runway today. In this case it looks more likely they found a whole lot of impingement drag on one side, probably from slush/snow lurking on the runway margins. Landing on the centreline pays dividends.

[oceancrosser]

The accident report (due to damage to the airframe and probably to runway edge lights, it will be classified as an accident) should make for interesting reading. One point overlooked in previous comments: weather conditions, which may have contributed to reduced friction (greasy runway or aquaplaning). I wonder what Runway Condition Codes were passed on the ATIS or by ATC (even at major airports, these are usually several hours old and therefore largely useless in determining braking action or landing run).

Cheers :cool:

Are you so sure there will be a report? And published? We will see…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13046059/moment-jet-179-passengers-drift-runway-vilnius-lithuania-mud-ice.htm (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13046059/moment-jet-179-passengers-drift-runway-vilnius-lithuania-mud-ice.html)l

The DM trash calls the pilot a hero. Couple of other words spring to my mind…

[605carsten]

One aspect nobody considers is that departing traffic usually sheds its anti-ice fluid at roughly the same spot you and I would get on brakes and pull TRs.. Antiskids really cant figure that out sometimes and with crosswind you quickly end in a fastnfurious drift scene

[FlexibleResponse]

As far as I am aware of (FCOM is not specific about it) Max Autobrake will not arm in-flight on more recent MSNs, I.e. Enhanced onwards.


Thank you Mike_tanaka. I have not flown the Airbus types for nearly 20 years.
So my information is old and it is good to hear Airbus has updated the system. :-)

[Magplug]

@605 carsten

Several times I have taken off in a medium behind another medium at high density airports with minimal spacing between departing aircraft. If you are unlucky enough you will get a faceful of anti-icing fluid somewhere about 800-1000 feet. If the anti-icing fluid is falling off on the runway then it is not doing it's job.

Occasionally you might get an aircraft that has been de-iced with hot Type 1, but not subsequently anti-iced because the conditions do not demand it. Type 1 has a viscosity closer to water so dripping on the runway does not make it slippery. If anti-icing Type 3 or 4 treatment has been used it is designed to remain on the wing until at least 140kts. It also makes ramp areas deadly slippery underfoot if the Snowman crew have been splashing too much of it about.

[n77]

@605 carsten
If anti-icing Type 3 or 4 treatment has been used it is designed to remain on the wing until at least 140kts

Type 3…?

[poldek77]

Type 3…?

According to https://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/2_3_3_1.html

Type III fluids are relatively new and have properties in between Type I and Type II/IV fluids. Type III fluids also contain thickening agents and offer longer HOTs than Type I, but are formulated to shear off at lower speeds. They are designed specifically for small commuter-type aircraft, but work as well for larger aircraft.

[hoistop]

@605 carsten

Several times I have taken off in a medium behind another medium at high density airports with minimal spacing between departing aircraft. If you are unlucky enough you will get a faceful of anti-icing fluid somewhere about 800-1000 feet. If the anti-icing fluid is falling off on the runway then it is not doing it's job.

.
If I remember correctly from my winter operations training, (20+ years ago) anti-icing fluid is designed to fall off the wing before/at a certain speed during T/O, thus ensuring wing is (more or less) clean at rotation. It is meant to do its job until ice protection sys. takes over. That`s why diffferent thicknessess for different groups of A/C (read: T/O speeds)

[Ragneir]

This was a rudder issue.

[Mr Good Cat]

This was a rudder issue.

Can you tell us more? A rudder issue as in ‘the pilot put in too much rudder’, or as in ‘a mechanical or electrical problem caused the rudder to deflect’. If it’s the latter it’s very worrying.

[Magplug]

Did this 'Rudder Issue' compel the Captain to continue taxying a badly damaged aircraft all the way back to the terminal? ....Or maybe he just had 'a moment'.

[Giuff]

This was a rudder issue.

would you be so kind to elaborate?

[Ragneir]

Mechanical issue that's already resolved and once the report is fully released you'll know the details. The pilots were very experienced. For now, I invite you to check any videos and tell me how much the rudder moved. You'll find that it doesn't.
And tell me if you can maintain centerline on high speed with just the tiller and the nose gear, because if you do, you're superman that needs to be put in the vanguard of new plane certification.

[Dufo]

Mechanical issue that's already resolved and once the report is fully released you'll know the details. The pilots were very experienced. For now, I invite you to check any videos and tell me how much the rudder moved. You'll find that it doesn't.
And tell me if you can maintain centerline on high speed with just the tiller and the nose gear, because if you do, you're superman that needs to be put in the vanguard of new plane certification.

"very experienced" crew doesn't continue to taxi the aircraft after such an event. Experience is not only the amount of hours in logbook..

[dirk85]

... especially if the experience is in Avion, Smartlynx or similar operators.

Nobody disputes the reasons behind the rwy excursion. But to continue taxing, that was a deliberate action that in any serious operator would put you straight in no-fly, retraining, and possibly out of the job.

[Giuff]

Mechanical issue that's already resolved and once the report is fully released you'll know the details. The pilots were very experienced. For now, I invite you to check any videos and tell me how much the rudder moved. You'll find that it doesn't.
And tell me if you can maintain centerline on high speed with just the tiller and the nose gear, because if you do, you're superman that needs to be put in the vanguard of new plane certification.

so it was a mechanical failure upon touchdown?
Looking forward to Airbus bulletin then.

[Magplug]

I get the impression Ragneir is employed in the Avion PR department..... For PR read 'Damage Limitation'.

[tdracer]

so it was a mechanical failure upon touchdown?
Looking forward to Airbus bulletin then.

I'm just imagining the uproar if this had happened with a 737 instead of an A320 and it was alleged to be a mechanical failure.

[Ragneir]

I get the impression Ragneir is employed in the Avion PR department..... For PR read 'Damage Limitation'.

Lmao, go ahead and read what I do from my profile. I'm a pilot and I knew about this incident before 99% of any of you. We're already being briefed, we already have access to the FDR about the incident and doing exactly what the industry is meant to do: Understand why it happened, how it happened and how to prevent it from happening again.

Honestly I just come to the forums to watch people armchair the **** out of whatever incident you guys decide, and I find it pretty hilarious that, if this were a flag carrier, you'd be praising the guy for leaving the mud instead of chastising the pilots for working on an airlane that gave them a chance.
And not really caring about PR, but regardless of what you think, the operational side of Avion is safe. We have no fatal accidents or incidents (unlike many of the flag carriers you all praise), and the pilots are pretty much all competent.
You all need to sit the F down and wait for the initial and then final report.

Here's a tip for all armchair investigators: This airplane is one of the newest acquisitions of Avion. You can see this easily on the internet.

[DaveReidUK]

This airplane is one of the newest acquisitions of Avion. You can see this easily on the internet.

Out of interest, it's been a couple of months now since the incident - when is the aircraft likely to fly again ?

[Dufo]

Has the (flight) crew been promoted/awarded for bringing the aircraft back to the stand and not leaving it in the mud? With a flight control fault it must have been a real battle to taxi.

[Ragneir]

Out of interest, it's been a couple of months now since the incident - when is the aircraft likely to fly again ?

Honestly no clue. Haven't spoken to the head of engineering about it, since he's in vilnius most of the time, and I haven't been there in a while.

Has the (flight) crew been promoted/awarded for bringing the aircraft back to the stand and not leaving it in the mud? With a flight control fault it must have been a real battle to taxi.

I enjoy your sarcasm, really makes me laugh uncontrollably! Clearly you haven't much of a clue what controls taxi requires. Here's a tip: it doesn't require rudder.

[Dark Stanley]

Quote

We have no fatal accidents or incidents (unlike many of the flag carriers you all praise), and the pilots are pretty much all competent.

pretty much all competent. Oh that’s pretty much good than, I’m pretty much amazed.
im guessing pretty much all of the flights actually arrival pretty much all of the time.

[Magplug]

What caused the runway excursion here is frankly secondary. The fact that they apparently powered out of the mud with a severely damaged aircraft and then thought it was prudent to taxy to the terminal with two damaged engines is nothing short of reckless. This is the sort of thing you might expect from PIA.

Ragneir I see from your profile that you have a CPL with ATPL exam credits, so you are working as a First Officer, maybe even in your first job. Your profess to have inside knowledge so presumably you are working for Avion Express. As a skipper with 22k hours on heavies I can give you two bits of sound advice:

1. You only know what they tell you, and they only tell you what they want you to know.
2. They say as an FO you will learn more from the bad Captains you fly with, than the good ones. I guess in the RHS of an Avion Express jet... you must be on a pretty steep learning curve. My advice is to move on from that outfit at the first opportunity, before some cowboy puts a stain on you record that will be impossible to shake off.

DaveReidUK You are right Dave, it has been well over a month and no preliminary report yet. As a civilised western nation and member of the EU we might expect better of them. Or perhaps Lithuanian national interests are at stake?

[TheEdge]

Quote

We have no fatal accidents or incidents (unlike many of the flag carriers you all praise), and the pilots are pretty much all competent.

pretty much all competent. Oh that’s pretty much good than, I’m pretty much amazed.
im guessing pretty much all of the flights actually arrival pretty much all of the time.

No need to shoot an ambulance, it is well known that aviasolutionsgroup and their cancerous acmi bottom feeders, the like of smartlynx and avionexpress are the worst you can get, just above pay2fly eaglejet.
Stay far away of those baltic scammers.

[Right Way Up]

Honestly no clue. Haven't spoken to the head of engineering about it, since he's in vilnius most of the time, and I haven't been there in a while.



I enjoy your sarcasm, really makes me laugh uncontrollably! Clearly you haven't much of a clue what controls taxi requires. Here's a tip: it doesn't require rudder.

Here's a tip. Taxying doesn't require mud either :ouch:

[flugholm]

Here‘s another excursion. A320neo in Hanover last autumn, at night in really crappy weather. All six wheels off the runway, then taxi to the terminal. (Page 33ff.)
https://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/Bulletins/2023/Bulletin2023-10.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2

[Giuff]

Here‘s another excursion. A320neo in Hanover last autumn, at night in really crappy weather. All six wheels off the runway, then taxi to the terminal. (Page 33ff.)
https://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/Bulletins/2023/Bulletin2023-10.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2

Then what?

[OldLurker]

Here‘s another excursion. A320neo in Hanover last autumn, at night in really crappy weather. All six wheels off the runway, then taxi to the terminal. (Page 33ff.)
https://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikatio...cationFile&v=2
Then what? (https://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/Bulletins/2023/Bulletin2023-10.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2)Incident: Cairo A20N at Hanover on Oct 14th 2023, temporary runway excursion on landing (https://www.avherald.com/h?article=51041c82)
Then the airline ferried it back to Cairo and fixed it. Now it's flying to and from Hurghada as before.

[sonicbum]

Mechanical issue that's already resolved and once the report is fully released you'll know the details. The pilots were very experienced. For now, I invite you to check any videos and tell me how much the rudder moved. You'll find that it doesn't.
And tell me if you can maintain centerline on high speed with just the tiller and the nose gear, because if you do, you're superman that needs to be put in the vanguard of new plane certification.

Thanks for the info.

Considering the above, I believe Airbus should issue immediately an airworthiness directive regarding a possible “Jammed Rudder” problem? Or a Red OEB?
So far as an EASA Operator we haven’t received anything.

[Escape Path]

Quote
pretty much all competent. Oh that’s pretty much good than, I’m pretty much amazed.
im guessing pretty much all of the flights actually arrival pretty much all of the time.

While I certainly don't condone the taxiing to the gate after a runway excursion, I'm pretty sure you don't really think that there isn't any incompetent pilot at any given company...

[Fursty Ferret]

Considering the above, I believe Airbus should issue immediately an airworthiness directive regarding a possible “Jammed Rudder” problem? Or a Red OEB?


Hmm. Water bottle in the pedals?