United captain arrested at Edinburgh

[nivsy]

Surprised no one really talking about this event.....

https://planetradio.co.uk/forth/local/news/airline-captain-arrested-over-firearms-charge-as-edinburgh-passengers-stranded/

[Donkey497]

That's what I was wondering on the EDI Thread. Had it been an actual firearm, I'd have been thinking it was potentially a forgetful Auxiliary Federal Air Marshal, or however they are styled, but I don't think a taser is covered by this

FWIW, the feed of EDI news into the channel has been a little off the boil of late, even missing the bit about the passenger who died after apparently falling from a passenger lift from plane to tarmac back in October(? IIRC). I think we may need a fresh crop of news gathering "moles"

[Ninthace]

Tasering the FO seems an extreme form of CRM.

[KRviator]

Tasering the FO seems an extreme form of CRM.No more so than the Effo threatening the Captain with a gun (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/655584-fo-threatens-capt-gun.html)... WTF is going on with hiring in the States where you have this happening?!?:eek:

[Mike Flynn]

The latest from the Edinburgh Evening News


American airline pilot appears at sheriff court on firearms charge

Pilot was arrested by armed police at Edinburgh Airport on Saturday morning

An American airline pilot has appeared in court on petition in connection with a firearms offence.

Ryan Christopher Cecil, 56, appeared from custody and faced a charge under the Firearms Act 1968 Section 5 (1) (B) at Edinburgh Sheriff Court (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topic/courts) on Monday.

Sheriff John Cook released the US pilot on bail and his next court date is still to be confirmed.

Cecil was arrested by armed police officers at Edinburgh Airport (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topic/edinburgh-airport) on Saturday morning after he was allegedly caught in possession of a taser (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-crime-airline-pilot-arrested-at-edinburgh-airport-on-firearms-offence-4486467) in his carry-on luggage.

The Boeing 757 flight from Edinburgh to Newark Liberty International Airport near New York was immediately cancelled following his arrest.

Following the incident, a United Airlines spokesperson said: “This employee was immediately removed from service and we are fully cooperating with local authorities.”



source https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-crime-american-airline-pilot-appears-at-sheriff-court-on-firearms-charge-4488576

[blind pew]

Has Edinburgh got that bad? I remember Glasgow being not the friendliest places for english in the 70s but would have thought that a yank wouldn’t need a taser except in Capetown.

[Mike Flynn]

Has Edinburgh got that bad? I remember Glasgow being not the friendliest places for english in the 70s but would have thought that a yank wouldn’t need a taser except in Capetown.

I don’t suppose he was very happy appearing before the initial hearing after spending the weekend in custody in an Edinburgh police cell.
This will take a few weeks to sort out.

[Lomon]

You have to wonder how he got the stun gun through security in the USA to get it to EDI in the first place. I'm sure he wouldn't have bought it while he was there to smuggle back to the US.

Do the TSA have questions to answer? If pilots can smuggle firearms into the the UK, how many are in the pax baggage?

[Mike Flynn]

You cannot legally buy stun guns in the UK. I am sure the protracted confinement to Edinburgh in winter for the legals to take place will be sufficient for the court to just fine him.
However it does mean he will have a criminal record in the UK if found guilty,

[Asturias56]

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk...ibited-weapon/ (https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/firearms-possession-of-prohibited-weapon/)

I'd guess he's probably in Harm Category 3, culpability C = fine, community service etc - but given how much effort they put in to stop ordinary folk carrying weapons onto aeroplanes he may finish up with a short custodial sentence, tho he probably won't actually go to prison . He'll need a good lawyer

[allaru]

Taser type device BIG ******* DEAL. I'm sure the cops in Edinburgh have more to keep than occupied than that.

[Asturias56]

you clearly don't realise just how strict the law (and public opinion) is in the UK. The STARTING point for sentencing is 5 years inside without the option. If you can show that you have no intention of using it (so why were you carrying it?) and its non-lethal and you didn't wave it around they may decide on a shorter sentence. Its 10 years if its disguised as something else. Many of these sentences are mandatory.

If he's lucky he'll get something like the guy in Oxford

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-sentenced-carrying-taser-around-020000068.htmlMoussa Adoum, 38, of Whitehouse Road, South Oxford, was charged with possessing the weapon which discharges an electrical charge. He pleaded guilty at Oxfordshire Magistrates Court last month for the incident which took place in Oxford on May 14, 2021. Adoum received a 20-week prison sentence suspended for 18 months because the offence was so serious.

or: elsewhere-

While two response officers approached the 44-year-old suspect shortly after 7.10pm on July 15, he was seen to discard something on the floor which turned out to be a taser type device. Armstrong pleaded guilty to the offence at Nottingham Magistrates' Court on November 4 last year and was given an eight months prison sentence suspended for 18 months at Nottingham Crown Court on February 4, 2021.

I think the French start with a year for carrying a TASER.

[Kabobble]

Taser type device BIG ******* DEAL. I'm sure the cops in Edinburgh have more to keep than occupied than that.

I'm not a lawyer, but the the specific deal appears to be the Firearms Act 1968 Section 5 (1) (B) which is available to read here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/5


Weapons subject to general prohibition.

(1) A person commits an offence if, [without authority], he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing.


The above offence doesn't carry a mandatory sentence.

The guidelines for 5 (1) (B) offences are contained in the schedule here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/schedule/6 but in summary the maximum sentence is 10 years.

[Donkey497]

All - the Sentencing Council stuff only applies in England & Wales. Significantly different firearms rules & procedures, courtesy of Scottish Legislation, and different Scottish Sentencing Council tarriffs/guidance apply up here. The type of sentence available depends both on how the case is defined and the type of court which deals with the offence, all of which is determined by the Procurator Fiscal's office.

I'm not saying a volume of legal precedence will not be propelled through the air in his direction, but much will depend on how the Procurator Fiscal approaches things.

Remember chaps that innocent until proven guilty (of whatever offence) still applies & we should not be rushing to judgement, much less pronouncing a sentence without knowing all of the facts and hearing all of the legal arguments and mitigating circumstances.

[Lomon]

Taser type device BIG ******* DEAL. I'm sure the cops in Edinburgh have more to keep than occupied than that.
no, not really, firearms offences (and taser type devices are classed in Scottish law as firearms) are about as serious as it gets...

attempting to smuggle a firearm onto an aircraft is even worse.

This isn't the USA, we take firearm offence EXTREMELY seriously.
In the year 2020-21 there were only 273 firearm offences in the whole country

Bulgaria (a country with a similar sized population to Scotland) has 5 times more firearm offences that the WHOLE of the UK.
It is difficult to quantify a comparison with say the US, as I can only find statistics on firearm deaths, rather than crimes in general (eg an armed robbery where a weapon is not discharged and no-one is hurt)

[Abrahn]

It is difficult to quantify a comparison with say the US, as I can only find statistics on firearm deaths, rather than crimes in general (eg an armed robbery where a weapon is not discharged and no-one is hurt)

Roughly 257,000 firearm involved offences in the US (2022 estimates from the FBI, likely undercounting), or 760 per million people.

10,000 (2019, from the ONS) in England and Wales or 173 per million people.

341 in Scotland (2020, from the Scottish government) or 62 per million people

[Lonewolf_50]

How is a taser a firearm? l
I asked the cops I know about calling a taser a firearm.
The look they offer is about one eye roll. And the answer is "No, it's not a firearm, but it must be treated with care."
(As for the captain in question, FFS, know the rules and apply them)

[Mike Flynn]

How is a taser a firearm? l
I asked the cops I know about calling a taser a firearm.
The look they offer is about one eye roll. And the answer is "No, it's not a firearm, but it must be treated with care."
(As for the captain in question, FFS, know the rules and apply them)


The UK is a lot different the USA. The law describes it as thus;

A Taser is a weapon capable of discharging an electrical current and is classified as a prohibited firearm. It is therefore an offence to possess, purchase, acquire, manufacture, sell or transfer such a weapon, without lawful authority.

If you are found in possession of a stun gun, you could face up to ten years imprisonment and/or a fine.
Similar laws are common across Europe.

source https://www.askthe.police.uk/view-category/?id=ce9ede1e-6ad2-eb11-bacb-000d3ad61986#:~:text=Q766%3A%20Can%20I%20use%20a%20Taser%20f or%20self%20defence%3F&text=A%20Taser%20is%20a%20weapon,a%20weapon%2C%20without%20l awful%20authority.

[jolihokistix]

Let's hope the guy had a reasonable reason for carrying it, and that the authorities are willing and able to cut him some slack.
(Spoken from experience of generosity shown by airport officials in the US, many years ago. 'Nuff said.)

[The Fat Controller]

It's a firearm, even according to the acronym

Tom A. Swift Electric Rifle

[Asturias56]

"Let's hope the guy had a reasonable reason for carrying it,"

That's a hard one - his best shot is to plead guilty and say he forgot all about it as, its common in the US. Unless he threatened someone, waved it about or mouthed off to the arresting officers he's probably not going to prison - unless he has previous or he was drinking or..............

Points up the importance of thinking when you travel overseas - laws are NOT the same as at home and attitudes my be VERY different. In the UK there are no "flag laws" and if you tear up the countries flag you're just thought to be an idiot - in the USA you're likely in a heap of trouble.

[bill fly]

I used to carry my ex RAF dinghy knife (the first, pointed version) in its sheath, bolted inside the folded lid of my crewbag back in the 70s. This was absolutely not in accordance with my airline's policy and in all honesty I don't know whether it would have been of use in a hijacking but it felt a bit safer. It was not found until a dead heading flight on Delta from Bangor to NY, where it showed up on the pax scanner. Even then it took four searches before they finally located it. "What is this for?" "Sharpening pencils!" It was sent for "safe keeping" to the cockpit and the Cpt gave it back to me on disembarking... Having this item in a cockpit, was considered safer than it being in the cabin in those days, when crew members were not subject to security checking.

[Donkey497]

While we are on the subject, relevant guidance from Police Scotland on firearms
Guidance on Firearms & Exposives licensing (https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/what-we-do/firearms-and-explosives-licensing/firearms-and-shotguns/)

It should also be considered, especially by our N. American & Southern neighbours that significant restrictions also apply to air pistols / air rifles, BB guns, (and, I believe even) airsoft weapons under the additional legislation passed by the Scottish Government back in 2015.
Air Weapon Licensing & Penalties (https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/what-we-do/firearms-and-explosives-licensing/air-weapons/)

[nivsy]

Seriously....no one is asking...why did he have it with him? My first thought is that he intended to use it....when? Onboard the aircraft? He is a professional pilot. Forget his toothbrush maybe but not that he is carrying a taser for goodness sake. He deserves everything that comes his way. I hope it's severe enough to make it known to all that such things are not welcome on aircraft and in the UK.

[Abrahn]

I would have thought the things most likely to catch tourists out would be pepper spray being classed as a firearm and the pointed and bladed article stuff.

But airlines should, surely, be briefing their crews on local laws?

At least we're allowed to cross the road without supervision!

[Asturias56]

"Seriously....no one is asking...why did he have it with him? My first thought is that he intended to use it....when?"

He was flying to New York - he probably felt it was less dangerous than having a firearm (eg if you have kids around the house) and, like our US contributors , didn't see it as a "firearm" at all.............

[Lonewolf_50]

didn't see it as a "firearm" at all............. While he probably didn't, it's still a dangerous tool/weapon. Since he was going to be in a foreign country it strikes me as foolish not to check out the regs for the country one is traveling to before one considers carrying such an item around.
Seems like a necessary "preflight" (like checking NOTAMS) before a trip.

[Lomon]

A quick check of TSA regulations also advises that stun guns/TASERS etc are prohibited from cabin bags and must be carried in the hold (providing that the device doesn't have lithium batteries)

Which I suppose raises the question what did or didn't the TSA do on the outbound leg?

[rugmuncher]

Has it been confirmed that it was actually a "Taser" and not a "Plasma lighter"?, which is fundamentally the same as a Taser but the initial intention could be quite innocent.

(Plasma lighters are still regulated however, on how and where the can be stored for transit.)

[Greatman77]

Off topic, but before 9/11, I used to fly routinely all over the US with a couple dozen box cutters with my company's logo in my briefcase for giveaways to customers...

[NRU74]

Also off topic:
I flew on Victors in the RAF in the sixties and seventies. We had a co-pilot known as 'jaapie' - ie from South Africa- and he had a hand gun for which he had a licence..When we did tanking sorties in the Middle East he always took his gun with him. He held it in a shoulder holster under his flying suit.He left it in the cockpit when we night stopped. Not sure he ever declared it to the Customs at Marham but he did have a Firearms Certificate for the gun.

[India Four Two]

Also off topic, but relevant.

I think many people in the UK don't appreciate the almost casual attitude to weapons that is quite prevalent in the US.

I was once visiting someone in California and stayed overnight. His "guest room" was a Winnebago, parked in the driveway. He showed me where all the controls and switches were and then opened a cupboard to point out where the loaded 357 Magnum was, should I need it!

Years earlier, when I went to Houston for the first time, for a company course, a Texan colleague told me that probably 50% of the cars in the office car park would have a gun in the glove box.

[beardy]

Roughly 257,000 firearm involved offences in the US (2022 estimates from the FBI, likely undercounting), or 760 per million people.

10,000 (2019, from the ONS) in England and Wales or 173 per million people.

341 in Scotland (2020, from the Scottish government) or 62 per million people
You have to look at the definition of firearms offence. In the UK it includes BB guns and replicas moreover they don't have to be discharged.

[hunterboy]

I do think it is a bit excessive classing it under firearms legislation though. Wouldn’t it be better classed as an offensive weapon? Isn’t pepper spray also classed as a firearm under the firearms act?
Incidently, let’s not forget firearms are legal in the UK with the appropriate licence. It isn’t that difficult to get one either. As for shotguns, they are ludicrously easy to obtain legally.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

If a pilot on 9/11 had a taser on him and managed to subdue his attackers and land the plane safely he would have been hailed as a hero. Still not right though.

[island_airphoto]

As an American, I would not think of a TASER as a firearm whatsoever. They sell combination TASER/Flashlights at the checkout in the local hardware store for about $30. (not to be confused with the police TASER that actually shoots wires across the room, those are regulated here). Pepper spray likewise is common, my wife's company had a giveaway at lunch one and put out a huge box of them for everyone to grab for free. This predictably degenerated into a few people wanting to see how bad the stuff smelled and stinking up the office.
BTW, the TSA found people trying to carry guns on airplanes illegally almost 7,000 times last year! I bet that is about 6.999 more than the UK.

[Abrahn]

I do think it is a bit excessive classing it under firearms legislation though. Wouldn’t it be better classed as an offensive weapon? Isn’t pepper spray also classed as a firearm under the firearms act?
Incidently, let’s not forget firearms are legal in the UK with the appropriate licence. It isn’t that difficult to get one either. As for shotguns, they are ludicrously easy to obtain legally.

Other than the bit about pepper spray, this entire post is wrong. For those that care, there's a difference between a section 1 firearm, a section 2 firearm and a section 5 firearm; and it's an easy Google. The rules on offensive weapons are different to firearms and - unless we want people tasering each other in domestic fights - are inappropriate.

[Howard Long]

Isn’t pepper spray also classed as a firearm under the firearms act?


It is. I witnessed a pax at LHR T5 fast track security getting her collar felt by a couple of armed rozzers for having pepper spray in her carry about eight years ago, I didn't hang around to see the end game, but not making her flight might've been the least of her worries. She certainly didn't understand the seriousness of it.

[lightonthewater]

Some years ago, the standard security check of tourists at Buckingham Palace detected a revolver and live rounds carried by an American man. It seems that he was a US policeman, and had brought the items over on a flight with no problems: it seems that he had just shown his police ID to the security in the US airport who let him through with no checks, and, apparently, he had no idea that guns and ammo were illegal in the UK. He was most offended when they were confiscated.

[Asturias56]

I do think it is a bit excessive classing it under firearms legislation though. Wouldn’t it be better classed as an offensive weapon? Isn’t pepper spray also classed as a firearm under the firearms act?
Incidently, let’s not forget firearms are legal in the UK with the appropriate licence. It isn’t that difficult to get one either. As for shotguns, they are ludicrously easy to obtain legally.


what we all think is reasonable doesn't count - its what the law says that counts

And although it is possible to get a licence for a rifle for hunting any sort of handgun is almost impossible

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

I was on vacation in the US about 30 years ago. About three months before going on vacation I had been assaulted on the street in the UK with minor injury but it left me with some fears going out and I got taxis everywhere between bars if on a night out. Anyway on my US vacation I saw a pepper spray for sale quite openly in a pharmacy. I literally thought, oh great that's what I need. Ultimately I saw sense and did not purchase it.

[listria]

Last time we travelled on the LA Metro through Watts and Compton (not really recommended,by the way) a guy cruised the carriage demonstrating and selling Tasers . Quite tempting but glad I didn't bite.

[meleagertoo]

Also off topic, but relevant.

I think many people in the UK don't appreciate the almost casual attitude to weapons that is quite prevalent in the US.

Years earlier, when I went to Houston for the first time, for a company course, a Texan colleague told me that probably 50% of the cars in the office car park would have a gun in the glove box.
That may be true to some extent but when I worked with the CAF in Texas there was a more or less fulltime volunteer member there who (besides being a complete erse) was reputed to keep a loaded Magnum in his glove-box. This was very dimly regarded and most people thought he was a danger.
The CAF in the mid '70s was a pretty yee-haar organisation too.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Last time we travelled on the LA Metro through Watts and Compton (not really recommended,by the way) a guy cruised the carriage demonstrating and selling Tasers . Quite tempting but glad I didn't bite.


I went through Watts on the Metro, didn't feel unsafe at all..

[jolihokistix]

You think Watts is dangerous? Travelling through Brixton late at night on the Northern Line, I actually saw a guy fingering the handle of a slim shiv hidden up his sleeve. Of course, things have improved a lot since then.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

You think Watts is dangerous? Travelling through Brixton late at night on the Northern Line, I actually saw a guy fingering the handle of a slim shiv hidden up his sleeve. Of course, things have improved a lot since then.

think I’d rather travel through Watts than Brixton at night

[911slf]

Pepper spray is useful if you seriously expect to encounter bears. My son did some serious back country travelling in Canada and took one with him. If I recall correctly you could hire one and if it were returned unused you got some money back.

Only use it on the bear if you have to do so. Some fools spray it on their clothes. And then the bear likes the smell of it and is attracted.

[Fursty Ferret]

Pepper spray and bear spray are very different things.

[hunterboy]

Hi Abraham, which part of the post is wrong?

[hunterboy]

Hi Asturias, semi auto.22 pistols are possible to obtain on a section one firearms licence.

Just to clarify, I am referring to .22 long barrelled pistols such as these:

https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/pistols-long-barrel/gsg/semi-auto/22-lr

[Asturias56]

Its a very small number of ranges and competitors that can get one - they were banned for years but there was a slight softening for the Olympics which was later extended to a very limited larger community.

[White Van Driver]

Don't the Americans regularly carry weapons on the flight deck as part of the FFDO scheme? I'm no expert but it would seem quite understandable how someone could end up in the UK with such a device. Clearly not allowed, but you could see how it could happen.
All it takes is to forget about it in the UK (remember this guy probably brings this device with him to work every day when flying domestically in the US) and you've got the situation as reported.

[innuendo]

Well it is not the first time,,
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiivsrK2YGEAxXbOTQIHctoA_QQFnoECBkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fcalgary%2Floa ded-handgun-at-airport-gets-u-s-pilot-arrested-in-calgary-1.2597084&usg=AOvVaw0NwvntVzXfdYV8nrliZueF&opi=89978449

[Retired DC9 driver]

Hi Asturias, semi auto.22 pistols are possible to obtain on a section one firearms licence.

Just to clarify, I am referring to .22 long barrelled pistols such as these:

https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/pistols-long-barrel/gsg/semi-auto/22-lr
What is with the long bar extending off the bottom of the pistol grip in your link? Is that a permanent fixed device so you can't conceal the pistol?

[Glevum]

In the UK a rifle is defined as having a barrel over 300mm and overall length of 600mm.

The long bar is to bring the overall length of the gun over 600mm. It will also have a 300mm barrel

[SloppyJoe]

Those saying the TSA should have picked it up on the outbound leg. I believe in the US, a pilot can take take a gun in their carry on baggage. Correct me if I am wrong, but I asked one once and they said yeah sure, no problem.

[MarkerInbound]

If the pilot is a Federal Flight Deck Officer they just show their ID and there’s no screening. They go through background checks and federal law enforcement training. A regular pilot would be in trouble if caught with a firearm going through security. Anyone can have a firearm in their checked baggage if it is declared when checked.

[IBMJunkman]

The gun has to be in a case locked with a non-TSA lock inside the luggage which most likely has a TSA lock. Many airlines ask to see the gun before it goes in the case. A smart traveler secures the gun case to the luggage somehow. Like a steel cable. Anyone can have a set of TSA keys.


If the pilot is a Federal Flight Deck Officer they just show their ID and there’s no screening. They go through background checks and federal law enforcement training. A regular pilot would be in trouble if caught with a firearm going through security. Anyone can have a firearm in their checked baggage if it is declared when checked.

[Chiefttp]

There are very strict requirements for pilots in the FFDO program, including daily check-ins with the authorities to confirm your location and destinations. I’ve heard of a few instances where a crew was flying into SEA and had to divert to Vancouver (Canada) the FFDO pilot had some issues bringing in a firearm to Canada. It wasn’t an easy problem to resolve.

[India Four Two]

Does a non-FFDO pilot have any choice as to whether they are paired with an FFDO partner?

[stilton]

Does a non-FFDO pilot have any choice as to whether they are paired with an FFDO partner?


No, you have no choice

[Shawn K.]

...apparently history repeats itself. Well, at least a taser can't blow a hole in the fuselage - certainly safer than a real gun in a pressurized vessel. Wonders never cease!

[Sailvi767]

There is no real threat from a handgun in a pressurized aircraft. Originally they planned on FFDO’s using frangible low velocity ammo. After testing they realized it was not needed. The outflow valve might close another 1/100 of an inch if a round penetrated the skin but that’s about it. I am against the program for other reasons but not that one.

[Abrahn]

There is no real threat from a handgun in a pressurized aircraft

No fragile bits that, as Captain Ramius might say, "don't react too well to bullets"?

[Null Orifice]

There is no real threat from a handgun in a pressurized aircraft..

So the film 'Snakes on a plane' had no basis in fact? :E

[albatross]

A little humour:

https://youtu.be/Jtf4Zma8kMU?si=AT6Yt3DqNvGHTtD2

[Saintsman]

...apparently history repeats itself. Well, at least a taser can't blow a hole in the fuselage - certainly safer than a real gun in a pressurized vessel. Wonders never cease!

I once went down to the avionics bay in a VC10 at 40000 ft. There is an external access hatch there and I could see daylight around most of the seal. Far bigger hole than any bullet would make.

[stilton]

A little humour:

https://youtu.be/Jtf4Zma8kMU?si=AT6Yt3DqNvGHTtD2


Not at all actually

[bean]

Not at all actually
I agree. Quite sick

[Fursty Ferret]

certainly safer than a real gun in a pressurized vessel.

You'll be astonished to learn that there are several big holes in the fuselage of all modern pressurised aircraft. They aren't like balloons that get inflated once.

[Hedge36]

Pepper spray is useful if you seriously expect to encounter bears.

Because bears appreciate the added spice.

[Kiltrash]

What is it with Edinburgh.... Seems a Delta driver from last year is being done for being over the alcohol limit...well at least on today's local news ...
Sorry if there is a separate thread on this one

[DaveReidUK]

What is it with Edinburgh.... Seems a Delta driver from last year is being done for being over the alcohol limit...well at least on today's local news ...
Sorry if there is a separate thread on this one

In the EDI thread:

Pilot arrested, Delta flight at Edinburgh cancelled (travelmole.com) (https://www.travelmole.com/news/pilot-arrested-delta-flight-at-edinburgh-cancelled/)
​​​​​​​

[Howard Long]

Made the Beeb front page here in Blighty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68481282

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Is the tazer pilot still in custody in the UK awaiting the hearing or has he been allowed to travel back to the uk.

[stilton]

You'll be astonished to learn that there are several big holes in the fuselage of all modern pressurised aircraft. They aren't like balloons that get inflated once.


Yes they are designed in by the manufacturer, not shot out by a gun

What’s your point ?

[Amadis of Gaul]

What is it with Edinburgh.... Seems a Delta driver from last year is being done for being over the alcohol limit...well at least on today's local news ...
Sorry if there is a separate thread on this one

It's the haggis. Mind you, I like haggis. And cullen skink.

[Herod]

And Arbroath Smokies. "Mind you, they make me cough" for anyone who remembers the ad.

[r9chelsea]

I guess we can all standby for higher KCM randoms even though he didn’t screen (or shouldn’t have) at KCM.

[Asturias56]

Is the tazer pilot still in custody in the UK awaiting the hearing or has he been allowed to travel back to the uk.

Pled guilty and remanded in custody to await sentence.

[Donkey497]

Nope, it was the Delta driver [Under The Influence] that was remanded in custody yesterday [i.e. locked up] until sentencing at the Sherriff Court at the end of this month. From previous cases & current trends, this is a probably a fairly strong indication that there will be a custodial part to the overall sentence, or he's regarded as likely to abscond beforehand. If not, he'd more likley be released on bail until sentencing.

Current wherabouts of the United guy [Taser] is not known at this point, but as there was no word of hium being remnded in custody, I suspect he was either released on very large bond & his Company involved in assuring the Court of his return, or passport confiscated & daily reporting to a nominated police station in the locality, accomodation & sustenance being to his own account.

[Mike Flynn]

The Delta Captain was remanded in custody last year.He is still in custody awaiting sentencing following his recent guilty plea before a judge. The ten months on remand will be credited against his sentence

An American airline pilot was caught over the alcohol limit before he was due to fly a Boeing 767 full of passengers from Edinburgh to New York.

Lawrence Russell, 63, was searched by airport security officers at about 08:00 on 16 June last year.

He was found to have two bottles of Jägermeister in his luggage - one of which was half full.

Russell, a captain with Delta Airlines, was later arrested following a failed breath test.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68481282

The pilot was remanded in custody at Edinburgh Sheriff Court after pleading guilty to reporting for duty as a pilot while being impaired through drink or drugs.

He is still in custody awaiting sentencing following the recent court appearance.

The court also heard his alcohol level was over double the legal limit, with his lawyer Pamela Rogers providing the court with a medical report of the treatment Russell has been receiving for his alcoholism.Sentencing has been deferred to later this month for the preparation of reports.

A Delta spokesperson said: “While Delta does not comment on on-going legal cases, Delta’s alcohol policy is among the strictest in the industry and we have no tolerance for violation.”
She added that he was "under no illusion" to the seriousness of the offence.

With time served he will probably be released soon.

However the biggest punishment is the obvious end of his career.

[Magplug]

The BBC reports suggests that the Captain first aroused the interest of security personnel when liquids were detected in his baggage, presumably at the staff security checkpoint. The suspicion that he was under the influence must have come to light in the ensuing conversation. Perhaps this serves as a reminder to all crew that chronic alcohol abusers are secret addicts and are well practiced at hiding their addiction.

Having met the crew in the hotel lobby over a coffee, and travelled with them in the confines of the crew transport, it seems strange that nobody noticed anything out of the ordinary. What I find most scary is that he attempted to take his alcohol on board, presumably to 'top-up' during flight.

[Sailvi767]

At Delta all crew luggage goes onboard. No crew bags are checked. Pilot bags go in the cockpit and one designated storage area in the front galley within view of passengers. Captains bag always goes in the cockpit and you are never alone. It would be next to impossible to top off. It can be very difficult to detect a long term alcoholic who is under the influence. They are very adept at hiding it.

[Amadis of Gaul]

However the biggest punishment is the obvious end of his career.

He's 63, he didn't have much left anyway, Thanks be to Quetzalcoatl! He can drink himself stupid on the golf course now, where he belongs.

[Radgirl]

I havent a clue whether he really is an alcoholic or is using the claim as part of his defence, but assuming there is some truth in his claimed addiction I am concerned at your attitude to mental illness. However my main concern is how he passed repeated medicals and escaped detection if he was really under medical treatment for addiction.

[g109]

He's 63, he didn't have much left anyway, Thanks be to Quetzalcoatl! He can drink himself stupid on the golf course now, where he belongs.

agreed, guys like him have no place whatsoever inside a cockpit, any cockpit in fact, even a Cessna 172

[maxred]

I havent a clue whether he really is an alcoholic or is using the claim as part of his defence, but assuming there is some truth in his claimed addiction I am concerned at your attitude to mental illness. However my main concern is how he passed repeated medicals and escaped detection if he was really under medical treatment for addiction.
Agree entirely. He was 63, nearing retirement. So he pitches up at hotel reception, musters and shares a ride to the airport, navigates pre flight, navigates to the aircraft, time and time again, and no one, not one, over his career stretch, knew? The AME that conducted his medicals, and his SIM rides???

And then bingo, one alert security person pulls him at EDI? Mmmmmmm...

[bean]

Agree entirely. He was 63, nearing retirement. So he pitches up at hotel reception, musters and shares a ride to the airport, navigates pre flight, navigates to the aircraft, time and time again, and no one, not one, over his career stretch, knew? The AME that conducted his medicals, and his SIM rides???

And then bingo, one alert security person pulls him at EDI? Mmmmmmm...
49mg in 100ml is not a lot. he definitely was not drunk, but definitely impaired to fly under the law

[ShyTorque]

It’s well over twice the legal limit.

[Zombywoof]

That seems incredibly low. Where I live it's not even close to the legal limit (for auto drivers, dunno about airplanes).

>> The legal blood alcohol limit for fully licensed drivers in Ontario is 0.08% or 80 mg of alcohol for every 100 ml of blood. Any higher and you can face criminal charges

I'll wager one beer would take you pretty close to 49mg.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Is it legal for flight crew to carry alcohol in their carry on/flight bags? This captain had a bottle and a half of jaegermeister in his bag and this is what brought him to the attention of security? There was another just before Christmas where the pilot got to security, chickened out and dumped a bottle of vodka in the toilet, this alerted security and resulted in his arrest for a FUI

[ShyTorque]

The blood/alcohol limit for flying is set lower than for driving. It was reduced to 20mg /100ml quite some time ago and was well publicised.

The driving limit is 80mg in many places in the world but only 50mg in Scotland.

[Zombywoof]

For flying it might as well be zero, because a single pint is going to put you over the limit for sure. I agree with bean, 49mg is not much.

[FullWings]

For flying it might as well be zero, because a single pint is going to put you over the limit for sure. I agree with bean, 49mg is not much.
Yes. Alcohol and flying shouldn’t be mixed, but the practical effect of 49mg is zero, although a line has to be drawn somewhere.

It is difficult to argue that a stiff drink before aviating should be allowed, however the hoopla and publicity is very disproportionate to the actual risk. If the pilot in question was a tee-totaller who didn’t get a great night’s rest (time zones, busy roster, noise, etc.) but felt kind of OK after a cup of coffee, very few would be questioning his fitness to fly but, as countless accident reports have detailed (including the recent one from Pakistan), tiredness, fatigue, hypoglycaemia, worry and stress are far more potent performance degraders than a BAC only detectable by sophisticated equipment.

If 1% of the effort put into alcohol screening and security theatre was instead concentrated on the real dangers above, the aviation world would be a safer place. Yes, don’t drink and fly but even if no-one ever did, it’s not going to do anything to improve the accident statistics. For those with real issues, peer intervention and employer support work much better than anything else.

[Boabity]

To put it in perspective,. the drink drive limit in England is 80Mg per 100Ml of blood.
The much more restrictive limit in Scotland is 50Mg per 100 Ml of blood, which amounts to about a half pint an hour prior.

49Mg per 100ml blood is really very low indeed. He almost certainly consumed the alcohol well before and probably was neither impaired or smelling of alcohol.
It's not ok, the law is the law and to be honest drinking at all while down route isn't wise or necessary but has been vastly blown out of proportion by the media.

It's a shame he's lost his career over this but the law is the law and it should be a warning to all of us that the limit is so low.

[Right20deg]

FW I agree. In addition, Aviation in the USA and UK leads the world with CRM, good attitudes and behaviours. The further east of London that you go, problems become quite serious. It is not pretty.
Medicine is still water skiing about 20 years behind aviation in this respect. Both industries have their problems with drink drugs etc. Spot checks are the way forward. Already in use in USA. The innocent have nothing to fear, as always

[B2N2]

Yes. Alcohol and flying shouldn’t be mixed, but the practical effect of 49mg is zero, although a line has to be drawn somewhere.

It is difficult to argue that a stiff drink before aviating should be allowed, however the hoopla and publicity is very disproportionate to the actual risk. If the pilot in question was a tee-totaller who didn’t get a great night’s rest (time zones, busy roster, noise, etc.) but felt kind of OK after a cup of coffee, very few would be questioning his fitness to fly but, as countless accident reports have detailed (including the recent one from Pakistan), tiredness, fatigue, hypoglycaemia, worry and stress are far more potent performance degraders than a BAC only detectable by sophisticated equipment.

If 1% of the effort put into alcohol screening and security theatre was instead concentrated on the real dangers above, the aviation world would be a safer place. Yes, don’t drink and fly but even if no-one ever did, it’s not going to do anything to improve the accident statistics. For those with real issues, peer intervention and employer support work much better than anything else.

Bit of a denialist attitude.
You have no evidence of this, zero.
How many taxiway incursions, runway incursions, almost accidents, ATC clearance deviations (may) have been the result of impairment?
Neither one of us could provide evidence for either side of the argument as testing is only required after an accident or incident with significant damage.
However the truth might be hiding in plain sight.
Peer intervention? Peer pressure you mean?
People are pack animals and ‘group feel’ is strong. Being the odd one out for not going out to dinner with fellow crew as drinking is somewhat expected? The don’t-worry-we’re-all-drinking attitude?
Cabin crew that gets absolutely hammered on overnights?
That maybe I’ve had one to many feeling in the morning?
Calling in sick and self disclosure of an issue is something else entirely then getting caught while attempting to gain access to an aircraft with the intention of ‘getting away with it again’ which is criminal.

[Expatrick]

The blood/alcohol limit for flying is set lower than for driving. It was reduced to 20mg /100ml quite some time ago and was well publicised.

The driving limit is 80mg in many places in the world but only 50mg in Scotland.

List of limits in Europe, a few at zero...

https://etsc.eu/issues/drink-driving/blood-alcohol-content-bac-drink-driving-limits-across-europe/

[FullWings]

Bit of a denialist attitude. You have no evidence of this, zero.
How many taxiway incursions, runway incursions, almost accidents, ATC clearance deviations (may) have been the result of impairment?Could be lots or few/none as there is zero evidence for this as well? OK, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but would you fly with someone who was alcohol-impaired? I wouldn’t.
Neither one of us could provide evidence for either side of the argument as testing is only required after an accident or incident with significant damage.
However the truth might be hiding in plain sight.As I am having difficulty finding any airline accident or incident where inebriation was officially cited as a factor, it is a bit of a leap of logic to extrapolate that there are lots of drunk pilots flying around? If that is true and they’re not having accident or incidents (see above) then, statistically, you could say you’re better off with an intoxicated pilot? I’m not suggesting this is the case, just showing that this argument has holes in it. Although if I only had a choice between a fatigued pilot or a tipsy one I’d choose the latter every time.
Peer intervention? Peer pressure you mean?It’s a specific term used in psychology. Many airlines have peer intervention/support programmes for all sorts of issues, not just substance abuse. On a wider scale it happens throughout healthcare. Peer pressure might have been what got them started down this road, as alluded to below.
People are pack animals and ‘group feel’ is strong. Being the odd one out for not going out to dinner with fellow crew as drinking is somewhat expected? The don’t-worry-we’re-all-drinking attitude?
Cabin crew that gets absolutely hammered on overnights?
That maybe I’ve had one to many feeling in the morning?
Calling in sick and self disclosure of an issue is something else entirely then getting caught while attempting to gain access to an aircraft with the intention of ‘getting away with it again’ which is criminal.
I’m not trying to argue that putting jägerbombs in your tea on the flight home is somehow acceptable or that reporting for duty with a BAC over whatever the limit is in that jurisdiction is either. What I am trying to say (obviously unclearly) is that the overall risk to aviation is very low, compared to almost everything else, e.g. being sloppy with performance calculations, using the wrong intersection, fasting when you shouldn’t, etc. (which have all come up recently). These can and do happen involving pilots who are stone-cold sober but are effectively drunk on fatigue, etc. because a) there aren’t really any tests to determine how tired you are, b) there are no limits apart from the number of hours you are on duty and c) like anoxia, it is hard to self-diagnose once you are afflicted. If it was truly about flight safety these are the areas the industry should be concentrating on from the Regulators downwards. Sadly, commercial interests win out and the humans take the blame for being, well, human.

[hans brinker]

Could be lots or few/none as there is zero evidence for this as well? OK, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but would you fly with someone who was alcohol-impaired? I wouldn’t..........
Sadly, commercial interests win out and the humans take the blame for being, well, human.

Well said.

[B2N2]

that the overall risk to aviation is very low

You don’t know this and have no evidence for this.
An altitude deviation, a misunderstood clearance early on in the flight?
There’s no testing required for these potentially high risk but eventually non consequential events.
So we’ll never know how many of these events are caused by fatigue, self medicating or while even slightly intoxicated.
We don’t know how many times a multi crew environment covers the induced errors.
Again, self reporting and self grounding is something different then getting caught and playing the compliant victim.

[FullWings]

You don’t know this and have no evidence for this.
Apart from the (complete?) lack of alcohol-induced incidents and accidents over many many years and hundreds of millions of flight hours plus a lot of investigations and testing? If this was similar to EROPS certification, it would have passed with flying colours a long time ago?
An altitude deviation, a misunderstood clearance early on in the flight?
There’s no testing required for these potentially high risk but eventually non consequential events.And why should there be? From reports and observation, these occur in a random fashion during normal operations. It’s things like noisy channels, confirmation bias, authority gradient, improper readbacks, non-adherence to SOPs, etc. None of these need any level of intoxication to present themselves. Does a deep or short landing imply that the pilot has been on the sauce during the approach? To kind of answer that, for motor skills to be that degraded would make it rather obvious to others that the pilot in question was half-cut a long time before?
So we’ll never know how many of these events are caused by fatigue, self medicating or while even slightly intoxicated.Yes, but as we’ll never know we can’t always attribute them to a particular factor. Is it the breakfast cereal, toilet paper or even Aliens? We do know from post-analysis when pilots are likely to have been suffering from fatigue after an accident, as we know their duty periods, actions and communications, and if they're still alive, how well they were rested and what they were feeling like in retrospect. And whether they’d dropped by the pub shortly before report.
Again, self reporting and self grounding is something different then getting caught and playing the compliant victim.Relevant to this thread but not to the question of risk. From personal experience, people who have a serious enough problem to drink regardless of whether they are going flying, in full knowledge that it is a stupid (and criminal) thing to do, are what some might call “functional alcoholics” and don’t seem to be affected by a particular quantity of alcohol to the same degree as those who are moderate or abstain. Doesn’t make it right but this scenario is played out continually in all walks of life - it would be much better if everybody with this kind of problem went straight for professional help instead of the aeroplane but that’s not how it works most of the time, unfortunately.

TL;DR Flying + Alcohol = Bad, but not half as bad or common as other factors that are much more likely to lead to unpleasantness but don’t make the news...

[Donkey497]

Back on topic Chaps, there's a fair bit of drift creeping in.

[MissChief]

Try getting eyedrops in your crew meal halfway across the Atlantic. Some idiot cabin crew member did that (Thomas Cook Airways) and the pilot was incapacitated for hours. Naturally it was covered up by airline management. That was a bigger risk than 49mg/ml of C2H5OH in your bloodstream, I feel.

[Right20deg]

MissChief, those were the days. CRM started and stopped with the "Goodmorning" and a "brown cow" was a landing drink before the drive home. Rock and Roll years.

[Xray4277]

I was on vacation in the US about 30 years ago. About three months before going on vacation I had been assaulted on the street in the UK with minor injury but it left me with some fears going out and I got taxis everywhere between bars if on a night out. Anyway on my US vacation I saw a pepper spray for sale quite openly in a pharmacy. I literally thought, oh great that's what I need. Ultimately I saw sense and did not purchase it.

Off topic a bit I know, but back in the 1980s I went on holiday to the USA and a friend back in the UK asked me to bring him back a replica Colt revolver (he was a Wild West/American Civil War reenactor nut back then). So I duly purchased said replica and before flying back to the UK 'phoned the airline to ask what the correct protocol was - I was told to pack it in my hold baggage and all would be fine. Of course they did not say anything about what I should do at UK Customs (not their jurisdiction or their problem)...I just took the chance and walked through the 'nothing to declare' channel. What would have happened if I'd been stopped? Don't know, don't care, it was a gazillion years ago! But it did set me thinking how easy would it have been to have taken a real gun home!

[Donkey497]

Latest report on the Delta Captain is that he has been jailed today for 10 months for being over the limit.

Delta Captain jailed for 10 months (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68606629)

It's unclear from any of my local sources if he has actually been on remand all of the time since his arrest, but if so, this could effectively be a "Time Already Served" decision.

[theredbarron]

He had been remanded in custody so, yes, that will count towards his 10 months. Given his offence I do think that he got off lightly but the big question for Delta is, as he was a being treated for alcoholism, why was he allowed to continue to fly?

[Mike Flynn]

Latest report on the Delta Captain is that he has been jailed today for 10 months for being over the limit.

Delta Captain jailed for 10 months (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68606629)

It's unclear from any of my local sources if he has actually been on remand all of the time since his arrest, but if so, this could effectively be a "Time Already Served" decision.

This should serve as a warning that what’s OK in the USA is not alright in the rest of the world.

I would have thought that most pilots are already aware of the rules regarding drugs,weapons and pornography when they are rostered to foreign parts.

[Abrahn]

This should serve as a warning that what’s OK in the USA is not alright in the rest

In this particular case he was over the limit for the USA too.

[Abrahn]

I do think that he got off lightly

​​​​​​A previous one (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/pilot-jailed-trying-fly-scotland-25459016) also got 10 months, although he was 4 times over.

[ETOPS]

If he has been on remand these last 8 months I would be suprised if he served any further time - the conviction (and record) will still stand.

[Magplug]

Lynne Barrie, procurator fiscal for Lothian and Borders, said: "Lawrence Russell's conduct would have endangered many lives; the consequences could have been catastrophic."He showed a reckless disregard for the safety of his passengers and crew. The pilot of a commercial aircraft holds the lives of hundreds in his hands. He would have put all of them at serious risk.

Just a thought..... A British citizen, resident in the UK, would have been released on bail pending trial. Despite the 'Special Relationship', American citizens can expect to be remanded into custody pending trial. Unfortunately Americans, particularly non-diplomatic government employees, have a history of skipping the country before any charges can be brought. Only later we find out that the Anglo-American extradition treaty only works one way.

[ETOPS]

As they say in court - may I bring "further and better particulars" M'lud?

It turns out the accused only spent 2 days on remand in June 2023 thus he will have to serve the 10 months sentence from 3rd March 2024. With the usual reduction in time served for short sentences he should be out before christmas..

From the Judges notes.

Having regard to all the circumstances, including your own personal mitigation, the sentence I am imposing is a sentence of 10 months imprisonment. I have discounted that from a headline sentence of 15 months, taking into account the fact that you pled guilty at the earliest opportunity.

The sentence will be backdated to a notional commencement date of 3 March 2024, to take account of the 2 days you spent on remand when you appeared on petition on 19 June 2023.

[Tartiflette Fan]

He had been remanded in custody so, yes, that will count towards his 10 months. Given his offence I do think that he got off lightly but the big question for Delta is, as he was a being treated for alcoholism, why was he allowed to continue to fly?

but only since March 5th - the date of trial.

"The 63-year-old, from Georgia, pleaded guilty to a charge of performing an aviation function while impaired due to drink or drugs when he appeared at Edinburgh Sheriff Court earlier this month and was remanded in custody." DT

Has it been mentioned what size the " two bottles of Jägermeister " were ? Normal 70 cl or smaller ?

[Peristatos]

https://nypost.com/2024/03/20/world-news/delta-pilot-jailed-for-being-drunk-on-flight-to-nyc/
Russell lost his job and was diagnosed with severe alcohol use disorder, which the sheriff noted has been in remission after he completed a recovery program for pilots. Stirling said that while the married dad-of-two had no prior convictions in the UK, his history included multiple DUI instances.

​​​​​​​Since his arrest, the disgraced pilot has been on long-term disability and receiving half his salary from Delta, which was described as being “very supportive” of Russell. After completing his jail term, Russell will have to re-apply for an aviation medical certificate. If granted, he could be re-instated to his former job as a captain.

[muggins]

The judge's sentencing statement can be read on the Scottish Justiciary website

HMA v Lawrence Barbiers Russell Jr (https://www.judiciary.scot/home/sentences-judgments/sentences-and-opinions/2024/03/19/hma-v-lawrence-barbiers-russel-jr)

[Magplug]

Like most western countries the UK has a mandatory drugs & alcohol testing program. I have never been tested in the UK nor do I know anyone who has (I got tested in Sweden a couple of times on a SH turnround but that's it). I understand entire crews get selected randomly at base but I have not yet experienced it. Anecdotally I believe a few cabin crew have tested +ve for cocaine and been dismissed on the spot but other than that...... nothing.

The threat here is the secret alcoholic who is a master at hiding their addiction. The only context you might be able to detect a colleague abusing alcohol is when you go for a quiet drink after work. He/she is the one who is drinking heavily, or topping up their mixer with miniatures out of their bag/pocket. You can keep an eye on them... but is it an addiction? Or are they just overdoing it tonight because they are going though a bad patch at home? Most of us have a fundamental human desire to avoid confrontation with others. Do you report them, and open up a whole world of pain for them, possibly unnecessarily? Or do you let it slide? I guess that depends on how serious you perceive their problem to be.

All this is tempered with the fact that you may not see/fly with them for a couple of years so in a few of days it will become somebody else's problem. By the same token, airlines don't want the bad publicity that goes with one of their crew getting busted for drink/drugs. The whole area is a Pandora's Box that nobody is in a hurry to open. That is the reality of our business.