Whats the worst conditions for PPL Flying?

[Holloway]

Just wondering whats the worst wind speeds and weather u can fly in when doing your PPL?? its just this week other than tommorrow the windspeeds are forcast to be double figures

Thanks

Andrew :)

[Who has control?]

Clear skies, bright sunshine and .....haze.

It looks great from the ground, but once airborne and looking towards the sun, you can see nothing.

The best weather is high pressure after a cold front. The air is achingly clear and still. You occasionly get this in winter and its wonderful, you can see forever and a bit further.

[Evo7]

You can fly in quite strong winds, provided that you are dual and the wind is along the runway (even instructors are reluctant to fly on a 25kt crosswind day... :) ). Solo limits are more stringent, but I'm not sure how much of that is legal and how much clubs being sensible.

edit: agree completely about flying towards the sun in haze. It's legal but it's not fun.

[knobbygb]

I assume from your profile you're a low hours student - so am I, but a bit further on.

One of the things you'll probabably need to do before going solo will be the air law exam and for this you need to learn the minimum visibility requirements, amongst loads of other stuff. There's a very confusing looking diagram in Thom book 2 if that's what you're using. I found this stuff took ages to remember so I'd start to learn it as soon as possible.

Having said that, I still get it wrong and can't really judge the suitibility of the weather properly yet. I'm assured it gets easier with experience, and it's not my decision at the moment, so that's OK.

As the others say, haze is bad because it looks such a damn nice day from on the ground. The problem can be 'slant visibility'. Just because you can see the ground 1000ft below you, doesn't mean you'll be able to see the airfield which may be only a mile to one side and therefore over 4000ft away!

At times I'm surprised at how bad the weather has to be before we can't fly. In the first few hours we often cancelled because learning the basic skills in bad weather can be difficult and counter productive, but now they're quite happy to let me solo in the circuit in rain and under a 1000ft cloudbase so long as the wind isn't too bad.

The minimum requirement is that I must be clear of cloud, in sight of the ground, and have at least 3km visibility although I think it's 5km under most circumstances, not sure. See, I told you it was confusing.;)

As for wind. Each aircraft type has a crosswind limit for take off and landing. Mine is 12kts. So it depends on wind direction as well as speed. When looking at forecasts, dont forget that the winds at altitude are often stronger and in a different direction to those on the ground. Again, clubs will also have their own rules on what students can and can't do alone.

[Holloway]

Cheers guys, makes it a bit clearer for me :) CLEARER FOR ME GET IT?? :D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[FlyingForFun]

*Groans at Holloway's joke*

Actually, this is a pretty tough question - much harder than you'd have thought it would have been. There are several issues:


What is the legal limit for flying in bad whether?
What is the limit of bad weather in which it's safe to fly?
What restrictions does your club place on you?
What other obscure restrictions are there?
When does it stop being fun?


All the above answers are good, and I think between them they probably cover most, if not all, of the above. I'm sure there are other things that I've forgotten, too!

Legally, there are a number of different limits, and you'll need to learn them all for your PPL exam. Broadly, though:


There are legal restrictions on minimum visibility and minimum seperation from cloud for VFR flying in the UK. These vary, depending on what class of airspace you're in, how high you're flying, and how fast you're flying.
As a PPL without any further ratings, your license will include a restriction to always fly in sight of the surface (i.e. you can't go above a layer of cloud unless there are holes in the cloud), and with a minimum visibility of 3km, even if the airspace you're flying in allows other pilots to fly in lower visibility.
There are several different low-flying rules. If the cloud base is low, you won't be able to get high enough to be able to comply with the low-flying rules.
There are other conditions where it's illegal to fly, but these aren't very relevant. For example, it's illegal to fly in known icing conditions if your aircraft isn't equipped with anti-icing or de-icing equipment. However, you probably wouldn't want to fly in most icing conditions anyway if you don't have an IMC rating.


And there are probably other rules I can't think of right now. Note that there are no restrictions about flying in rain, for example. Heavy rain will probably reduce the visibility to below the legal minimums, but plenty of people fly light aircraft through small showers regularly. It's probably not fun in an open-cockpit aircraft though!

Of course, what's legal and what's safe are not always the same. For example, very few low-time PPLs (myself included) would be happy flying any kind of distance in 3km visibility. What you're happy with will depend largely on what you're used to. If you've done all your flying in the beautiful clear post-thunderstorm air of Florida, you'll be a lot less capable of handling a misty English morning than if you've done all your flying on misty English mornings!

There are some conditions where it's never safe to fly, regardless of how much experience you have. Thunderstorms are the most obvious example - if you see thunderstorms in the forecast, and you're not confident you'll be able to steer around them, stay on the ground.

Clubs often place restrictions on minimum visibility and cloud base which are in excess of the legal minimums. For students, they'll usually be much lower if you're solo. The restrictions might be lifted once you get your PPL, or once you get a certain number of hours - ask your club what their restrictions are.

A few people have mentioned cross-wind limits. There is no legal requirement to comply with any cross-wind limit. In fact, just because an aircraft has a maximum demonstrated cross-wind, it doesn't mean it's not safe to fly in higher cross-winds. It's only a maximum demonstrated crosswind - it might be that the test pilot couldn't find any higher winds to test the aircraft in. Having said that, you will probably find your insurance company will be unhappy if you're flying above the demonstrated limit. And it's certainly not something you want to be trying by yourself for the first time. Remember the old saying about old pilots and bold pilots.

Everything so far describes when it's legal and safe to fly. But of course there are conditions when it's legal and safe, but it's simply not fun. Moderate turbulence, for example. Or in rain. If you're only flying for fun, it simply doesn't make sense to fly in these conditions. Except that, from time to time, you might like to fly just so to make sure you've got the confidence to deal with the conditions if you encounter them unintentionally.

Well, I can't think of anything I've missed, but I'm sure someone else can! Hope that answers your questions.

FFF
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[Holloway]

Thanks FFF, Brillant information :) I enjoy reading your comments! I know at the momant im at an early stage. The reason for asking this question was because I looked at the weather this week and its quite windy down here at Manston. I was wondering what the limit in wind was so I could see if it was posible to have a lesson this week :)

Oh, did you see my Thread about the Navigation software?? I was wonderng the difference between two products?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65381

Thanks again FFF for your time ;)

[Whirlybird]

Something all of you have missed out is un-forecast CHANGEABLE weather, on the day you're half way through a long cross country. Does happen. Think in advance about what you'd do.

Holloway, this one's a bit in the future for you, but it doesn't take that long...

[Final 3 Greens]

Holloway

You asked for permissible weather "whilst doing a PPL."

The reality is that you are flying on your instructors licence, either as p/u.t or P1.

So until you are awarded your PPL, the weather will be as your instructor sees fit.

I'd have a chat with him/her to ascertain the current view, as a good instructor will probably have different limits for different exercises at each stage of your PPL.

Hope you're still enjoying it!

[distaff_beancounter]

FlyingForFun It's only a maximum demonstrated crosswind ..... Sorry to disagree, but as I understood it the "maximum demonstrated crosswind limit" was obtained using a brand new perfectly prepared aircraft, flown by an experienced factory test pilot, at a perfect airfield.

On the other hand, do the aircraft manufacturers' lawyers, then reduce the test figure, in order to avoid product liability claims?

So, as a moderately experienced PPL, flying well maintained, but not brand new aircraft, I have always taken the demonstrated maximum crosswind, to be my own personal limit.

What do other PPL's do? :confused:

[bookworm]

Maximum demonstrated xwind component as stated in the POH is usually not limiting. The manufacturer is required to demonstrate suitable handling in a crosswind of 20% of Vs0 for certification. Some do exactly that and no more. Others apply a limit.

[skyraider]

I have always taken the demonstrated maximum crosswind, to be my own personal limit

I think distaff_'s spot on here. There is no point having and flying with a X-wind factor of 20kts if you as a pilot can only handle 10kts.

If your ability allows you to exceed a given limit then you can worry about the validity of your insurance once you are on the ground....

[FlyingForFun]

I feel the most important thing is to have a limit.

There is no doubt that some aircraft can handle crosswinds well in excess of the max demonstrated limit. But, as long as you stick below that limit, you know you're in territory which the aircraft can handle. As soon as you go above that limit, you're entering the realms of a test pilot.

If it's been demonstrated to you (e.g. by an instructor experienced on that type) that your aircraft can handle xxx kts, even though that's 5 kts higher than the POH limit, and if that higher crosswind is also within your capability, you might consider that to be safe. Then, that becomes your new limit, which you don't exceed. This is assuming you've checked that your insurance will still cover you, of course.

The danger, I think, is in using the general statement that "aircraft can safely exceed their maximum demonstrated cross-wind limit" to justify flying in cross-winds which you haven't experienced before. (Unless you are a test pilot, of course.)

Personally, the own 'plane I've flown in crosswinds which exceed the POH limit is the Super Cub. The first time I did this was with an instructor. We did several circuits, and every landing was well within my capabilities and that of the aircraft. I set my personal limit in the Super Cub to 17kts based on that. (I forget what the POH limit is - I think it's 12kts, but can someone confirm?)

In the Europa, on the other hand, I don't have the confidence to fly even close to the demonstrated cross-wind limit yet. I will gradually work myself up to it as the opportunities arise, setting my personal limit slightly higher than cross-winds which I've experienced in the past and dealt with successfully, and I know that these limits will be within the capabilities of the aircraft. I have spoken to lots of Europa pilots, including test pilots, and most (but not all) of them say that the max demonstrated crosswind really is the limit in that particular aircraft. I have no intention of trying to prove them wrong! :)

FFF
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[andrewc]

Presumably the maximum cross wind in any given aircraft
type is one where with full deflection rudder input you
are *just* holding against the crosswind allowing you
to touch down without significant lateral forces on the
undercarriage.

Sounds hairy to me...

-- Andrew

[Aussie Andy]

Yet another fabulous PPRUNE thread! I've enjoyed reading this...

When I first got my PPL I set about exploring, together with another recently qualified PPL, and soon our confidence levels for various conditions improved. For instance, when clearly separated heavy showers are forecast and airspace dfoesn't present any problems, we became confident of finding our way around these and thence regaining planned track after, or adapting a modified plan, etc.

You've got to push your personal envelope(s) to discover what you're comfortable with, but the trouble is, some "early successes" can lead to gaining too much confidence. Suffice to say that I have since learned from some "experiences" and am now probably a lot more cautious of wx than when I first got the license!!!

I agree with others that visibility is the one that, these days, most often gives me pause for thought. I became initially comfortable with what I call "poor vis" (i.e. anything from about 8km down). I flew once from Wycombe to Sywell in what was forecast to be 8km, but later on when going back over Cranfield's METARs I learned that it had gotten downj to 5km... and I have to say it was a challenge for a while there, but didn't cause me too much worry at the time. Since then however, I have had a "learning experience" (which I reported in this forum) involving sudden entry into unforecast coastal sea-fog conditions which caused me to have to make a 180 turn on the instruments as we have been trained to do... it worked, but it shook me.

Last week, I was down in Guernsey and had wanted to rent a Warrior to take my family over to Alderney for a day-trip. I arranged to do the rental check with an instructor there on Wednesday morning (G'day Andy if you're reading!!) and the ATIS was broadcasting "8km vis"... no worries we thought. Well, once up and levelled off at I think about 2000', and pointing away from the island towards a training area 10NM over the sea to the south west, we couldn't see much I have to say! I'd be surprised if it was as much as 3km, and there was NO horizon. So, we called Approach and returned. I was having to reference the AI for S&L and to make the turns - but this obviously wasn't stressfull with an IR-rated instructor sat next to me! However, if these conditions had have devloped, say on my return from Alderney, with the family onboard - well I hope I would've coped, but I know it wouldn't have been pleasant... (hence I agree with Whirly that changeability of forecast conditions must be takien into account - particularly in coastal areas!).

Hope the anecdote's of interest ;)

[ETOPS773]

I had a really nasty incident with fog on my first flight after getting my PPL.

Sometimes..probably most times you can forecast it,but this caught EVERYONE by suprise.ATPLs,CPLs etc.
I won`t mention where it happened because it might blow my cover,but suffice to say in the north of the border.I went flying on a short x/c.
Outbound leg was fine,took off for home,and was about 15 minutes away from the airfield,told to hold over a visual referance point due to heavy traffic...reports of fog.

So,circled around for 5 or 6 minutes and bang,this fog came hurtling in.It was so fast,you have to see it to believe it. So,I contacted ATC,reminded them I was only PPL,no IMC/IR..and basically told all my diversion fields were affected earlier on and atc said i was lower on his priority as the instrument flyers had got down already but worse of all,students were in the soup!!
I decided to stay put though as I had enough fuel etc,thought it would be a quick fix.

It was quite terrifying,I was out of sight of the surface but above the cloud which felt unbelievably strange,was not in any dangerous airspace and I had about 3 hours fuel left so i performed racetracks around a local VOR for about 45 minutes until ATC decided how to deal with me.The nearest airport I could goto as a last ditch attempt was 40 miles away,class D airspace,expensive landing fee too!!That was the backup plan.

A member of my club was scrambled earlier,in a C172 and she was intercepting people / guiding them down,then heard her voice on the radio,intercepting the 180 degree radial,told to keep a look out for me.Got visual contact and did a very shallow decent through the cloud,with the other aircraft visual up ahead at my 2 o clock,along with ATC giving me vectors.At about 900ft finally got out of the cloud and had the runway to my 3 o clock.Got down safely but that was one heck of a baptism of fire.

After alot of hassle everyone put it down as a freak of nature,nothing too bad happened after,got a bashing but no fines or anything.

I say to you all,if you see or hear of fog,if you can get away with it,do all you can to get down,drop like a stone if neccesary,run like a well toned chicken if you cannot!! And get above it where you cannot hit anything too.

[Aussie Andy]

Jeez ETOPS, what a story! Not sure I'd have coped at that stage - my hats off 2u sir!

I keep coming back to the saying, which seems more and more true with every story I read, that our challenge is "to fill the cup of experience before emptying the cup of luck"!

[Whirlybird]

Andy and ETOPS,

Thanks for those accounts. I thought no-one was going to respond to my comment about changing conditions, and I think it's really important to know that whatever you do, however you plan, things can go wrong. It's one reason why I won't fly unless I'm feeling 100% fit - even a little local flight can turn into something requiring all your knowledge and energy and ability, if you happen to be unlucky. And I've had enough scares - lost in about 3km vis, stranded overnight by a line of thunderstorms (30PROB can happen) - to know it doesn't always happen to other people. You need to be as prepared as you possibly can.

Don't get too scared, but fly safe!

[Final 3 Greens]

Whirly

I remember post PPL (not long) a kindly FI saving my bacon.

It was a glorious day at Southend and the weather was forceast to close in (fog) at lunchtime ...... I tunred up bright and early to pre flight and the said FI gently pointed out that all the other airfields in the SE/midlands were socked in.

So, he said, if the weather develops more quickly than forecast your nearest guaranteed divert is Manchester. Are you up for such a long flight at your level of experience?

The answer was no.

Guess what, 75 mins later advection fog had formed and I was drinking a cup of tea in the clubhouse, rather than planning a 120NM divert on the hoof.

RIP Danny Wolff, a great teacher and a gentleman.

[Who has control?]

F3G,

re Danny Wolff

HEAR HEAR!!!

It sounds as if we may have met then.

[On Track]

Down here in Oz all sorts of weather conditions could cause problems - from snow and icing in the south (and in the case of icing, not only in the south), to tropical cyclones in the north.

Other problems can include bushfire smoke, which is not uncommon in the tropics during the dry season (winter).

Unexpected loss of visibility can be unnerving. Several years ago I departed the outback town of Coober Pedy on a crystal clear winter morning only to be forced down onto an uncharted strip about an hour later because of low cloud enveloping me from all directions. Ended up pitching the tents and spending the night there - miles from civilisation!

In some parts of Oz conditions can change dramatically quite quickly, so it pays to read TAFs and ARFORs very carefully.

However I reckon the worst possible conditions are not those which cause you to lose visibility, but control of the aircraft. I've already had some unpleasant rides in mountain waves - feeling that I had very limited control over what the aircraft was doing. I also wouldn't fancy being slammed into the ground by a microburst, and therefore give all storms a very wide berth.

Despite all of the above, most parts of Australia enjoy pretty good flying conditions most of the time.

[Aussie Andy]

Hi On Track... I very much appreciate your comments as I've been seeking this info on Austrlian conditions in another thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65789) in the "Dunnanda + Godzone" forums.

Good point re- mountain waves... I have only once experienced extreme turbulence, crossing the Pyrennees on the way into Spain from southern France, and it was absolutely awful and not something I'm looking forward to more of. Yes, losing control in that way is horrible, but whether I could choose either this or loss of vis. as worst? Not sure I can! ;)

[pulse1]

Although this question was raised in the context of PPL training I find it quite difficult even as a reasonably experienced PPL. For the last month or so I have been trying to fly some friends from the south coast up to the Midlands and, on the three attempts so far, I have had similar weather forecasts along the route which include things like TEMPO 7000 SH RA SCT 013. This very morning was the last occasion where the Low Level Briefing looks reasonable (25Km NIL weather 5 - 8/8 3000') but TAF's along the route are full of the above TEMPO's.

Because my friends want to actually get there, while I would be happy with the flying even if I had turned back, I decided not to go.

Now I will spend all day at my desk looking at the local weather wondering if I made the right decision. At the moment I did as it's overcast at about 1200'. (The sun's broken through since I wrote that so now I'm not so sure:confused: )

Everyone tells me that you can go around the showers but that's OK if you know how big they are going to be.

I know that my cautious (timid) approach is safe but it is very frustrating. Does anyone have any golden rules how to judge the likely size of showers especially when there is no probability given?

[Aussie Andy]

Yes its difficult to judge how "isolated" are the showers - weather radar helps a lot if you're prepared to pay for a subscription. I am just debating with myself whether the new MetOffice sub at I think £56 is worth paying to get this... probably? I think AvBrief also offer this...

... and even better, speak to a forecaster with lots of information at his finger-tips. Its not very expensive to call the premium-rate phone service offered e.g. by Flying High (http://www.weatherweb.net/) - I've used the service a few times and while not totally foolproof, its certainly helped me a lot to make some go / no-go decisions such as this.

[FlyingForFun]

It sounds to me like you made the right choice. I haven't seen the TAFs, but from your description of TEMPO RASH, I'd say that it's safe to fly, but you'd have to be prepared to possibly not reach your destination. If you friends need to be somewhere, flying with that kind of forecast is not the way to get them there.

There are plenty of stories about get-there-itis out there on the web. I don't like reading them, and I certainly don't want to be the one writing them.

FFF
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