Jump seat pilot tries to shut down engines in-flight?

[Skyray]

Saw this on Twitter, er, X:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1721x776/img_0704_8c4d85662ab699f545b45a4514482d800dd721a2.jpeg

Sounds like the jump seat pilot tried to shut down both engines in-flight. Recap of what happened starts at 10:49 here:
https://archive.liveatc.net/kpdx/KPDX-ZSE-Oct-23-2023-0100Z.mp3

Looks like Alaska 2059, PAE to SFO, as it diverted to PDX tonight.

[Zeffy]

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QXE2059/history/20231023/0035Z/KPAE/KPDX

[BFSGrad]

Perhaps a slightly more difficult operation than on most airliners due to the location and configuration of the engine switches on the E75L.

[Redmo]

Pretty bizarre incident here. Supposedly an Alaskan Air pilot jumpseating on a Horizon E175 attempted to shut down both engines before being subdued. ATC audio below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbU6E6VJx30

[WillowRun 6-3]

Per The Air Current on X (previously Twitter):

"The FAA sent the following security notice to U.S. carriers, according to a U.S. airline staffer who received the message directly:

'Last night a significant security event occurred on a US Air Carrier involving a validated jump seat passenger attempting to disable aircraft engines while at cruise altitude by deploying the engine fire suppression system. The crew was able to subdue the suspect and was removed from the flight deck. The flight diverted and landed safely. The event remains under investigation by law enforcement, no further details will be provided at this time.'”

[bafanguy]

This is allegedly the guy. Not sure who else would be booked today on 83 counts of attempted murder:

https://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1573087


https://katu.com/amp/news/local/man-charged-with-83-counts-of-attempted-murder-endangering-an-aircraft-at-pdx

[Lake1952]

Can someone review the "threat levels" and what they signify?

[MerseyView]

CAA to ban all pilots from the flight-deck, on flights into and out of the UK?

[Cough]

That's all of us out of a job then!

[BFSGrad]

Can someone review the "threat levels" and what they signify?
1-disruptive
2-physical
3-threat to life
4-breach (or attempted) of flight deck

Odd circumstance as there was no flight deck breach required.

Post #5 seems to confirm that perp attempted to use engine fire suppression handles (located in overhead panel) rather than engine shutdown switches as I incorrectly assumed in post #3. Don’t know how two strapped-in pilots managed to successfully keep a 6-1, 210 lb jump seater from pulling fire handles.

Assume federal charges to follow?

[Oasis]

1-disruptive
2-physical
3-threat to life
4-breach (or attempted) of flight deck

Odd circumstance as there was no flight deck breach required.

Post #5 seems to confirm that perp attempted to use engine fire suppression handles (located in overhead panel) rather than engine shutdown switches as I incorrectly assumed in post #3. Don’t know how two strapped-in pilots managed to successfully keep a 6-1, 210 lb jump seater from pulling fire handles.

Assume federal charges to follow?

Swift punch to the face?

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" --Mike Tyson

[voyageur9]

Off-duty pilot riding in cockpit accused of attempting to crash E175 aircraft

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67177294

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/alaska-air-off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-off-engines-on-flight-from-everett/

[WillowRun 6-3]

Swift punch to the face?

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" --Mike Tyson

The vocal tone of the aviators, communicating with ATC (on the recording linked above), sounds rather calm given what had occurred. But then, professional pilots, so.

[nevillestyke]

Swift punch to the face?

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" --Mike Tyson
My plan has always been to get punched in the mouth.

[hautemude]

think about it

[5000 metres]

From BBC:

”On Monday, the Federal Aviation Administration sent guidance to US air carriers that the incident was "not connected in any way shape or form to current world events".

“In a statement, the FBI confirmed it was investigating and said it "can assure the traveling public there is no continuing threat related to this incident".

[pattern_is_full]

**sigh** - sometimes folks can't take the strain, and crack. Glad his cockpit mates were on the ball. :ok:

https://heavy.com/news/joseph-david-emerson/

[KRviator]

Good thing everyone over there is getting pay rises. All crew who commute might soon be paying full fare SLF ticket prices to sit in back when the FAA bans all but essential & rostered crew from the jumpseats.

[Skyray]

Don’t know how two strapped-in pilots managed to successfully keep a 6-1, 210 lb jump seater from pulling fire handles.

Per Alaska via the Seattle Times (https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/alaska-air-off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-off-engines-on-flight-from-everett/), it sounds like he did pull the handles, but the pilots were able to reset the handles and keep the engines from shutting down.

Alaska Air spokesperson Alexa Rudin said via email that “fortunately some residual fuel remains in the line, and the quick reaction of our crew to reset the handles restored fuel flow and prevented fuel starvation.”

[bafanguy]

If the Fed Ex incident involving a jump seater didn't kill jump seating, this one won't either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

[BFSGrad]

...when the FAA bans all but essential & rostered crew from the jumpseats.
Other than “doing something,” not sure what such action would accomplish (at least in this event). This guy was an off-duty Alaska Air pilot. Eventually he was going to be on the flight deck as a pilot. Would the outcome have been better with just the bad-guy pilot and a good-guy pilot and no jump seater?

[Loose rivets]

If he'd wanted to sleep, he'd have gone down the back. Having a bad reaction to taking something off the books might lower the severity of the multiple lists of charges X 83 that he seems to be faced with. Entering a dream state and physically acting it out is a reality - one of the side effects of some new antidepressants. This kind of surprise is exactly why aircrew shouldn't 'just try this or that'.

He wanted the police to meet the gate.

[fdcg27]

I would be willing to wager a paycheck that this guy had some sort of mental break, perhaps enhanced by the use of what may have been a perfectly legal prescription drug.
+1 to nobody taking any psychotropic without being honest with the prescribing physician as well as having a full grasp of potential side effects.
Wonderful that the flight was saved from disaster.

[CVividasku]

Good thing everyone over there is getting pay rises. All crew who commute might soon be paying full fare SLF ticket prices to sit in back when the FAA bans all but essential & rostered crew from the jumpseats.
It wouldn't make any difference. This guy was a pilot so he was a rostered crew on other flights...

[Chiefttp]

https://youtu.be/hlbEhej6X7k?si=eGGp0JKdD_YeJDnP
This is the guy

[dr dre]

Good thing everyone over there is getting pay rises. All crew who commute might soon be paying full fare SLF ticket prices to sit in back when the FAA bans all but essential & rostered crew from the jumpseats.

I’ve read something like 80% of US pilots commute to work by flight from another city. Banning F/Deck jumpseating for commuters may shut down the US airline industry overnight.

From what I gather the system is sort of built to accommodate commuting pilots. 4 day trips, F/D jump seats on all carriers etc.

[MechEngr]

Want to worry? FA poisoning the coffee**. Keeping jump seaters out patches a really small hole compared to what a motivated scheduled pilot or FA could do. Maybe interlock the fire system with a positive fire indicator unless both pilots turn their keys at the same time, like for ICBM launches.

**Or they serve them the fish. Otto can do only so much.

[threep]

Bizarre. Sounds more like a cry for help than a determined attempt to take the aircraft down.

[mahogany bob]

A few thoughts on this horrific incident:

no point in stopping aircrew hitching jump seat lifts - they could crash an aircraft on their next ‘in the seat’ flight !

, the future - pilotless aircraft are safer - humans are the weak link?

Any suggestions

[Count of Monte Bisto]

This is obviously a very bizarre and incomprehensible incident to most of us. As others have suggested, banning jump seat commuters is not the answer. The only saving grace is this particular pilot was not actually flying the aircraft himself. The authorities are already adamant that it was not related to current world events or terrorist endeavours. It seems very likely that this was some kind of mental health episode - possibly assisted by the presence of illegal or prescription drugs. It is almost impossible to prevent this type of thing happening very occasionally, as pilots are ultimately human beings, with all the uncertainties that may bring.

I am not a Boeing pilot and have spent many years on the Airbus instead. Unlike the Boeing, on an Airbus it would be incredibly easy to shutdown both engines in flight in a couple of seconds. Although I much prefer Airbus overall, this is definitely an area where Boeing appear to have an added safety advantage that was very useful on this occasion!

[NSEU]

Does the E175 have a lockout on the handles unless there is an actual fire and the engines are running (like a Boeing)? i.e. is there also an override button for the handles?

TIA.

[deja vu]

I have maintained for some time now you have to be a little crazy to be involved in Commercial aviation in this day and age.

[Dea Certe]

Highly unlikely the FA’s will poison the coffee. Unless management is hiring total loons. FAs are all about keeping pax and crew safe. I’d say the 80% commute is close to accurate. These days of closing bases and having base in high cost of living places makes commuting desirable. Pilots and FAs get crash pads. Management might need to pay better attention to needs of crew.

[605carsten]

Highly unlikely the FA’s will poison the coffee. Unless management is hiring total loons. FAs are all about keeping pax and crew safe. I’d say the 80% commute is close to accurate. These days of closing bases and having base in high cost of living places makes commuting desirable. Pilots and FAs get crash pads. Management might need to pay better attention to needs of crew.

well, you can say the same about the Flightdeck… and to be fair I have seen a wider personality range with FA than pilots, and have flown with some I wouldnt want to date let alone operate any machinery..

Eitherway.. we are all human and being under constant workload and pressure to appease shareholders will just expose cracks in anybodys resilience.

[Less Hair]

Possibly being stressed, unfit to fly or having a meltdown is different from trying to kill colleagues and a planeload of passengers on a jump ride.

[Lonewolf_50]

, the future - pilotless aircraft are safer - humans are the weak link?
Any suggestions If that's how you feel, why are you posting on PPRuNe?
Highly unlikely the FA’s will poison the coffee. Unless management is hiring total loons. They have done so in the past (hiring a loon) see German Wings (and that was a pilot!) ... are FA's subjected to the same level of vetting and scrutiny that pilots are?

[mahogany bob]

lonewolf

Humans are the weak link

it’s NOT how I feel or want but PERHAPS it is a fact?

PS I flew auto land approaches on Vulcans 55 years ago!
PPS still would need good looking 4 ringers up front to give the pax confidence BUT reading this thread would that be a risk ?

[IBMJunkman]

Get AI into the cockpit. AI will solve everything. :)


A few thoughts on this horrific incident:

no point in stopping aircrew hitching jump seat lifts - they could crash an aircraft on their next ‘in the seat’ flight !

, the future - pilotless aircraft are safer - humans are the weak link?

Any suggestions

[BFSGrad]

Humans are the weak link
Makes one wonder who (or what) designs, produces, programs, and maintains these safer pilotless aircraft.

By removing the pilot, you’ve removed just one of many humans in the loop.

[meleagertoo]

Is the result of pulling the fire handles on an EMB reversible in flight?
Because if it is this strikes me as being a particularly half-hearted attempt to destroy the aeroplane or to kill anyone as there would be more than ample time for restarts.
Doing so on short finals or just after take -off would be quite another matter.

[West Coast]

Whatever the response to this, I hope the value of having a jumpseat rider is weighed in to the final decision. I’ve been a jump seater with electrical system issues and the crew put me to work as a third set of eyes with reduced instrumentation. On the other end, I’ve sent a jump seater back to look at the wing to verify what the EICAS was telling us was accurate.

[Auxtank]

He looks like a right . . .


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x800/telemmglpict000354195130_16981280108910_trans_nvbqzqnjv4bq_i wly18x4_czgyicjleaj0k9u7hhrjvuo_zlengruma_123490d099b51bafb6 696d9b9c4422f145806edd.jpeg

[BRE]

Per The Air Current on X (previously Twitter):

" The crew was able to subdue the suspect and was removed from the flight deck..'”
Seems the FAA should hire a grammarian.

[Dea Certe]

Lone Wolf, most airlines do background checks and back in the day, 4-5 interviews and assessments. I am unaware of any FA sabotaging pilots or attempting to bring down an aircraft. There’s a few incidents of pilots trying to takie down or attempting to take down a flight. I can think of two events top of mind. I believe there was a cargo flight with a pilot pax who acted out. Another was a non-US pilot who was being escorted back to base. . I know you know these, you’ve been around for quite awhile. FAs take the safety of our passengers and crew the top priority.

[apron]

what was the eicas for the wing?



Whatever the response to this, I hope the value of having a jumpseat rider is weighed in to the final decision. I’ve been a jump seater with electrical system issues and the crew put me to work as a third set of eyes with reduced instrumentation. On the other end, I’ve sent a jump seater back to look at the wing to verify what the EICAS was telling us was accurate.

[Killaroo]

It will be interesting to learn if there was some sort of negative dynamic in that cockpit, between Mr.Emerson and the operating crew.

[tdracer]

If he'd wanted to sleep, he'd have gone down the back. Having a bad reaction to taking something off the books might lower the severity of the multiple lists of charges X 83 that he seems to be faced with. Entering a dream state and physically acting it out is a reality - one of the side effects of some new antidepressants. This kind of surprise is exactly why aircrew shouldn't 'just try this or that'.


It's reported that the flight was completely full - so no 'option' of going in the back to take a nap.

[West Coast]

what was the eicas for the wing?

Spoiler deployment, spurious message in the end.

[hr2pilot]

KGW8 Portland News

PORTLAND, Ore. — The off-duty Alaska Airlines pilot accused of attempting to shut down the engines (https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/alaska-airlines-faa-medical-history-pilot-tried-to-cut-engines-during-flight/281-d7fd412e-c041-465a-a923-6aee0573a960)on a plane midflight also allegedly attempted to open an emergency door after he was removed from the cockpit. He warned flight attendants at one point that they should handcuff him, and later said that he had taken psychedelic mushrooms, according to a federal affidavit filed Tuesday.When police interviewed 44-year-old Joseph Emerson after the plane was diverted to Portland on Sunday, he told them he thought he was having a "nervous breakdown" and had not slept in 40 hours. He denied taking any medication, according to the affidavit, but told police he became depressed six months ago and talked to an officer about the use of psychedelic mushrooms, stating that it was his first time taking mushrooms.

"I didn't feel okay. It seemed like the pilots weren't paying attention to what was going on. They didn't... it didn't seem right," Emerson told police, according to the court documents. He later added "I pulled both emergency shut off handles because I thought I was dreaming and I just wanna wake up."

Alaska Airlines said Emerson had been riding in the cockpit jumpseat on a flight from Everett to San Francisco Sunday when he attempted to activate the fire suppression systems in both engines, which would have caused them to shut down. The plane's two pilots prevented him from doing so, and he was subdued and removed from the cockpit. Emerson was arrested after the flight landed at Portland International Airport.

According to a probable cause affidavit written by an FBI special agent based on interviews with the two on-duty pilots, Emerson gave no initial indication that anything was wrong during the first half of the flight, and engaged the two in casual conversation about types of aircraft and the weather.

When the plane was about halfway between Astoria and Portland, Emerson said "I'm not okay," and one of the pilots saw him throw his headset across the cockpit, then reach up and pull the two red handles that would activate the fire suppression system.

One of the pilots grabbed his wrist, while the other declared an in-flight emergency. Emerson resisted, wrestled with one of the pilots for about 30 seconds, then "quickly settled down," according to the affidavit.

The pilots asked Emerson to leave the cockpit and he agreed. The pilots then changed course to Portland.

Flight attendants who were interviewed told investigators that Emerson peacefully walked to the back of the plane after leaving the cockpit and told a flight attendant that he had "just got kicked out of the flight deck," then told another attendant "you need to cuff me right now it's going to be bad."

The flight attendants put him in handcuffs and seated him in a flight attendant seat at the back of the plane. During the descent into Portland, Emerson turned toward an emergency exit door and tried to grab the handle, but a flight attendant grabbed his hands and stopped him. Flight attendants then tried to talk to him to distract him from trying to grab the handle again.

Another flight attendant said they heard Emerson say things like "I messed everything up" and that he "tried to kill everybody."

Emerson reportedly asked to waive his right to an attorney after he was arrested, telling police "I'm admitting to what I did. I'm not fighting any charges you want to bring against me, guys," according to the affidavit.

Emerson had pulled the red handles but had been unable to pull them down all the way due to wrestling with the other two pilots, and the system wasn't fully activated.

"If Emerson had successfully pulled the red engine shutoff handles down all the way, then it would have shut down the hydraulics and the fuel to the engines, turning the aircraft into a glider within seconds," according to the affidavit.

Emerson is scheduled to make an appearance in state court at 2 p.m. Tuesday.

[MissChief]

He looks like a right . . .


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x800/telemmglpict000354195130_16981280108910_trans_nvbqzqnjv4bq_i wly18x4_czgyicjleaj0k9u7hhrjvuo_zlengruma_123490d099b51bafb6 696d9b9c4422f145806edd.jpeg
Looks like a very strange individual.

[hunbet]

"These days of closing bases and having base in high cost of living places makes commuting desirable."

Too bad that doesn't work out for the ground crews.

[hunbet]

While in custody, Emerson told a police officer he became depressed about six months ago, according to an affidavit authored by an FBI agent and included alongside the federal complaint. Emerson denied taking any medications, the affidavit says, but he did discuss psychedelic mushrooms with the responding officer.

“The officer and Emerson talked about the use of psychedelic mushrooms and Emerson said it was his first-time taking mushrooms,”

Psilocybin mushrooms generally won’t show up on a 5-panel test. Same goes for 8-, 10-, and 12-panel tests.

[Chiefttp]

Sorry I tried to link the affidavit but was unable.

[EJGeiginni]

While in custody, Emerson told a police officer he became depressed about six months ago, according to an affidavit authored by an FBI agent and included alongside the federal complaint. Emerson denied taking any medications, the affidavit says, but he did discuss psychedelic mushrooms with the responding officer.

“The officer and Emerson talked about the use of psychedelic mushrooms and Emerson said it was his first-time taking mushrooms,”

Psilocybin mushrooms generally won’t show up on a 5-panel test. Same goes for 8-, 10-, and 12-panel tests.

I'm a proponent of psilocybin therapy and the value of clinical use of psychedelics. I would not advise ANYONE to take psilocybin before getting on an aircraft or commercial flight, let alone ride jumpseat off duty.

I would have to call into question the judgement of any ATP making such a questionable decision to do this, and do so in such a seemingly unprepared and cavalier manner.

That alone makes me think this guy was a goofball and and probably an accident/incident waiting to happen.

[ImbracableCrunk]

The article is very lax in pointing to when Emerson took the mushrooms. It doesn't say he took them the day of the flight.

[visibility3miles]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/us/alaska-airlines-off-duty-pilot-arraignment.html?unlocked_article_code=1.5Ew.t_rV.cKUhvgDh6J rm&smid=url-share

​In an interview with the police, the off-duty Alaska Airlines pilot also said he thought he was having a nervous breakdown and had not slept for more than 40 hours, according to a criminal complaint...“I didn’t feel OK,” he told the police, according to the federal complaint. “It seemed like the pilots weren’t paying attention to what was going on.”

He also told the police, according to the complaint, “I pulled both emergency shut off handles because I thought I was dreaming and I just wanna wake up.”

…​​​​​​An off-duty Alaska Airlines pilot who tried to shut off the engines during a flight on Sunday told investigators that he had been sleepless and dehydrated since he consumed psychedelic mushrooms about 48 hours before boarding and that he had been depressed for a long time, state and federal court documents said.

Not sleeping for 40 hours straight is in itself probably enough to make you hallucinate.

[Peristatos]

https://nypost.com/2023/10/24/news/crazed-off-duty-pilot-made-second-bid-to-down-alaska-airlines-flight-feds/
"Even while restrained, Emerson tried to open the emergency doors on the Alaskan flight, which was being operated by Horizon Air, as the pilots frantically guided the craft to the ground."
"Although the affidavit doesn’t state whether Emerson was under the influence of the mushrooms while on the plane, he later added: “I pulled both emergency shut-off handles because I thought I was dreaming and I just wanna wake up.”

[B2N2]

Looks like a very strange individual.

Really?
Based on what exactly?
A goofy picture during cruise, likely an empty reposition flight?

[Chiefttp]

https://youtu.be/ze_WIE3Yokg

[Thirsty]

A drastic way to cry for help. The video by Juan Brown posted by Chiefttp expands the initial reports with a bit more background. The holes in the swiss cheese should have been spotted a lot earlier, before the lives of the rest of the craft were endangered.

[Sholayo]

CRY FOR HELP?!?!?
No, he just took psychoactive mushrooms and consciously boarded a plane in the cockpit. The twice he attempted to endanger a plane full of passengers.
If you want to do some crying formułek you call your family, friends, doctor, therapist or even HR if your company provides psychological support.
This case is NOT cry for help but murder attempt.
&

[Ken X]

I have thought about posting on this subject for a day or two now as I have experienced a similar event.

My wife went from a normal person Managing a department at work to being restrained by five police officers in four days.

On the Friday she was fine. Saturday she talked about being videoed at work. This was normal for her job so I did not think any more about it.

Sunday she became somewhat irrational and I decided to take her to hospital for a check-up. She tried to leave the car at speed and I had to complete the journey with one hand on the seatbelt buckle to prevent her releasing it.

The hospital took her in for observation but she tried to leave in the early hours of Monday morning. Police were called and it took five officers to safely restrain her to allow hospital staff to medically cosh her.

I was called and we agreed to Section her and she was transferred to a secure hospital for her own safety.

The doctors stil do not have any idea what caused the breakdown. They said "we still do not understand most of the workings of the human brain".

This case brought it all back and I am so glad it turned out as well as it did.

Hopefully the individual concerned can be given the care he obviously needs to sort out his problems.

My wife will never work or drive again but the doctors have got her back to a condition where she can function well enough to life a fulfilling life and be safe and happy.

That will do me.

[mahogany bob]

HUNBET

"These days of closing bases and having base in high cost of living places makes commuting desirable."
Too bad that doesn't work out for the ground crews..

very good point !

[pilotmike]

Thanks for sharing, Ken X. A sobering read, a real eye-opener. I, for one, will be more alert for such signs from now on. I hope all goes well for you and yours.

[Auxtank]

Jeez, so he was on "shrooms" . . .
I took some years ago when I was a student (Uni - not flight school) - damn near finished me - found later we'd taken far too many in one sitting.

I can't help thinking a short conversation with him would have revealed he was 'tripping" his proverbial knackers off.

[Lonewolf_50]

lonewolf
Humans are the weak link
it’s NOT how I feel or want but PERHAPS it is a fact?
PS I flew auto land approaches on Vulcans 55 years ago!
PPS still would need good looking 4 ringers up front to give the pax confidence BUT reading this thread would that be a risk ? Yes, I hear you, and I too flew with auto pilot functions as well, which are An Aid To The Pilot not a substitute for one. Any advocacy for pilotless aircraft hauling human beings around is IMO ill advised, and also antithetical to what PPRuNe's first two Ps stand for. OK, rant over.
Lone Wolf, most airlines do background checks and back in the day, 4-5 interviews and assessments. I am unaware of any FA sabotaging pilots or attempting to bring down an aircraft. There’s a few incidents of pilots trying to takie down or attempting to take down a flight. I can think of two events top of mind. I believe there was a cargo flight with a pilot pax who acted out. Another was a non-US pilot who was being escorted back to base. . I know you know these, you’ve been around for quite awhile. FAs take the safety of our passengers and crew the top priority. Thank you.
"I didn't feel okay. It seemed like the pilots weren't paying attention to what was going on. They didn't... it didn't seem right," Emerson told police, according to the court documents. He later added "I pulled both emergency shut off handles because I thought I was dreaming and I just wanna wake up." I think that he just signed his own career-change letter, right there. Glad nobody was harmed.

[WillowRun 6-3]

An extraordinary incident (as far as I'm aware), and thankfully no one was harmed.

One can always hope that the abilities of the cabin crew members to take the several actions they were required to take would serve as a wake-up call to those among the traveling public who think nothing of severe misconduct toward flight attendants. One can always hope. (Actions to take the individual out of the flight deck and then until law enforcement officers took custody on the ground.)

Also, can't help wondering whether the incident will change any minds in Congress about provisions still in controversy in the pending FAA reauthorization legislation. Does the incident argue in favor of extending the retirement age, or against it? In favor of modifying the 1500-hour rule, or against it? I'm wondering probably only because I'm just SLF/attorney, and the incident, while quite significantly sobering, isn't relevant substantively. But still, it just might point out to the Congress the need to get reauthorization of FAA completed and signed into law, quickly now.

[mahogany bob]

Lonewolf 50

Re pilotless flight - I don’t think that you need to rant too much as we are both on the same side - however I googled the subject and it appears that pilotless flight will become a reality sometime in the future with troubleshooting and human decision making being done by ‘pilots ‘on the ground .

However the major obstacles of public acceptance and jamming have yet to be overcome so I don’t think that anyone should be presently concerned about their flying careers - especially as a big demand ( and shortage )for pilots in the near future is forecast.

I do know what Pp in PPRUNE stands for and maybe the subject shouldn’t be debated but burying your head in the sand is not a good option !

I saw in one publication that 80% of accidents are caused by human error ??

[BFSGrad]

Emerson plead not guilty to all charges on Tuesday. I’m skeptical that the attempted murder charges will stick but I don’t know the specifics of Oregon law. I think he was overcharged by MCSO just to ensure he could be held in custody. Does Emerson have the financial resources to mount an effective insanity defense? Will his union assist?

HIs medical is dated 9/2023, which means he must have lied about his depression at that time. I think Trevor Jacob will be back in the cockpit before Joe Emerson.

[GlobalNav]

I have thought about posting on this subject for a day or two now as I have experienced a similar event.

My wife went from a normal person Managing a department at work to being restrained by five police officers in four days.

On the Friday she was fine. Saturday she talked about being videoed at work. This was normal for her job so I did not think any more about it.

Sunday she became somewhat irrational and I decided to take her to hospital for a check-up. She tried to leave the car at speed and I had to complete the journey with one hand on the seatbelt buckle to prevent her releasing it.

The hospital took her in for observation but she tried to leave in the early hours of Monday morning. Police were called and it took five officers to safely restrain her to allow hospital staff to medically cosh her.

I was called and we agreed to Section her and she was transferred to a secure hospital for her own safety.

The doctors stil do not have any idea what caused the breakdown. They said "we still do not understand most of the workings of the human brain".

This case brought it all back and I am so glad it turned out as well as it did.

Hopefully the individual concerned can be given the care he obviously needs to sort out his problems.

My wife will never work or drive again but the doctors have got her back to a condition where she can function well enough to life a fulfilling life and be safe and happy.

That will do me.


Thank you for sharing your experience. We need both compassion and security.
Hopefully, someone smart can decipher what happened to this man and achieve results as well as your beloved wife's.

[GlobalNav]

Lonewolf 50

Re pilotless flight - I don’t think that you need to rant too much as we are both on the same side - however I googled the subject and it appears that pilotless flight will become a reality sometime in the future with troubleshooting and human decision making being done by ‘pilots ‘on the ground .

However the major obstacles of public acceptance and jamming have yet to be overcome so I don’t think that anyone should be presently concerned about their flying careers - especially as a big demand ( and shortage )for pilots in the near future is forecast.

I do know what Pp in PPRUNE stands for and maybe the subject shouldn’t be debated but burying your head in the sand is not a good option !

I saw in one publication that 80% of accidents are caused by human error ??

I suppose pilotless flight will happen eventually, and getting it to work under normal conditions is hard enough, but under abnormal conditions? They are not likely to spend enough money to make that happen. Likewise with single pilot operations with hundreds of pax.

[shared reality]

mahogany bob: "I saw in one publication that 80% of accidents are caused by human error ??"

Well. with statistics you can argue any point, probably even that earth is flat...

If someone says that 80% of accidents are caused by human error, that is only a fraction of the truth, as most professional aviators know that for every accident caused by human error, there are multitudes of potential disasters averted by the very same humans, applying experience, thinking outside of the box, working together to solve issues arising. Most of these events go totally unnoticed by both the public and passengers... So I think we, as a profession, are quite safe in our employment for the foreseeable future.

Regards,

[Ohrly]

I saw in one publication that 80% of accidents are caused by human error ??

It is a meaningless statistic without clarification of what it means anyway. Aircraft are designed by humans, the individual components are designed and checked by humans, the software is designed by humans. Every accident is human error of some kind.

An aircraft with no pilot would just be eliminating a small part of the potential human error available, but also removing the possibility of overcoming different kinds of human error created in the software or hardware.

[OuchSpud]

Lonewolf 50
I saw in one publication that 80% of accidents are caused by human error ??

And if you automate all aircraft, 100% of the accidents with be caused by automation.
Aren't statistics wonderful

[Joe_K]

There’s a few incidents of pilots trying to takie down or attempting to take down a flight. I can think of two events top of mind. I believe there was a cargo flight with a pilot pax who acted out. Another was a non-US pilot who was being escorted back to base.

The one that sticks in my mind is the one where a pilot who had been declared unfit to work by a doctor managed to kill himself, 144 pax and 6 crew. And the one where a ground service agent stole an aircraft and killed himself. Begs the question if mental health issues are becoming more common, or if people are less aware of what's going on in their coworkers / friends lives and thus less likely to intervene.

[CW247]

The automation errors will be pinned on the humans that designed the system. Isn't life wonderful?

[megan]

Info grabbed from elsewhere.

He had taken the mushrooms 48 hours prior to the event in an attempt to treat of a long history of depression, the half-life of psilocybin (actually, of psilocin, the active metabolite of psilocybin) is said to be between two and three hours. So, after five half-lives (no more than about 15 hours), it’s 97% gone. So, it is unlikely that he was impaired by drug at the time of the incident.

Magic mushrooms have been touted as a promising therapy for depression, but clinical trials have only started recently.

[Lonewolf_50]

I like mushrooms on my pizza, megan.
Should I be worried?

[Eutychus]

I like mushrooms on my pizza, megan.
Should I be worried?
Username checks out (in the context of this thread at least...)

[jumpseater]

Emerson plead not guilty to all charges on Tuesday. I’m skeptical that the attempted murder charges will stick but I don’t know the specifics of Oregon law. I think he was overcharged by MCSO just to ensure he could be held in custody. Does Emerson have the financial resources to mount an effective insanity defense? Will his union assist?
.

He’s also got 83 reckless endangerment charges against him. Those look like up to a year incarceration for first offence and often tagged to a DUI charge which may be where the magic mushrooms come into play. Under US law could the attempted murder charges be downgraded to attempted manslaughter or equivalent for diminished responsibility due mental state/depression etc?

[Chiefttp]

Megan,
Many reports are saying that Emerson probably took the mushrooms only hours before the incident. He may have told the arresting officers that he took some a few days prior to avoid any fault (as crazy as that seems. His behaviour, obviously, leads one to believe he was under the influence. If you read the report, it’s such a bizarre event, in that, at times, He was out of control, and a second later he was conversing with the Flight Attendants and asking to be handcuffed?

Personally I have sympathy for this guy, but I hope he never flies again! I don’t care how much help and counselling he gets, he should never sit in an aircraft again. Dot period!

MahagonyBob,
Your advocacy for Pilotless aircraft is futile….How many “Paying Passengers will walk on to a Jet with NO PILOT!!! It was only a year or so ago, half the worlds population was wearing masks in fear of stopping a virus, many of them wearing these masks, outside, in a car by themselves, or swimming in the Ocean yards away from any person. Yet you believe these same people will just walk on a Jet with no pilot to fly across the globe? Your faith in human nature is commendable, but reality often collides with fantasy. Also, as a Military Pilot, Pilotless aircraft/drones, didn’t have the best safety record.

Posted on another Pilot website,


“One of my best friends knows this guy, Joe, very well. They flew together at Virgin America and now as Alaska Airlines Capts. Here was my buddies thoughts on Joe….

“he is one of my closest friends. I am sick to my stomach! Very good guy. Well respected instructor, pilot and person. Must have had a breakdown. There are a lot of pilots that we would have said, “yeah, I could see him doing that.” But not this guy!”

My personal theory. He began to feel symptoms of depression. Knowing this would possibly cause a loss of his medical and possibly his license, He clandestinely begins to experiment with mushrooms in the hope this will help. From what other people have stated, mushrooms have many delirious effects, which causes absurd, erratic, and irrational behaviors which are difficult to predict and control…his behavior certainly “fits the bill”

[mahogany bob]

Chief

I was not (am not ) supporting pilot-less flying - just putting forward the facts as I see them - it certainly won’t happen soon AND thanks to all in the aviation industry the airlines safety record is fantastic - it certainly is a lot safer flying than driving!

Shared reality

Well. with statistics you can argue any point, probably even that earth is flat...

If someone says that 80% of accidents are caused by human error, that is only a fraction of the truth, as most professional aviators know that for every accident caused by human error, there are multitudes of potential disasters averted by the very same humans, applying experience, thinking outside of the box, working together to solve issues arising. Most of these events go totally unnoticed by both the public and passengers.

Totally agree !

Lies,damned lies and statistics ! Mark Twain

BUT

Humans are human and:
Have bad days
Suffer from heart attacks/colds/ depression /emotion/overwork
Take drugs/alcohol /magic mushrooms!

Etc etc

So maximum efforts should be made by the airlines to ensure that stress on aircrew is kept to a minimum .Reading some of the threads on ‘conditions ‘ I am not sure that this is happening

[Captain Biggles 101]

Is it possible this guy had a sudden psychotic episode? If so could put a different slant on things. Stranger things have happened and it's onset can be quite sudden. When it happens anything said can have no bearing on the reality of the situation, and the individual has at times zero control over their own actions or understanding of the world around them. Stress and fatigue, combined with some unknown lurking vulnerability could cause literally anyone to have a strange episode like this. Not forgiving his actions whatsoever, but just saying, this guy likely needs help, indeed didn't he ask to be cuffed? More to this than meets the eye, and perhaps a lot of help and understanding of the complexities needed here imo. If he was of sound mind and did actually take something unlawful that would be a different matter entirely.

[BoeingDriver99]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue_Flight_191

Food for thought for some of the holier-than-thou posters who have never put a foot wrong in their lives. Psychotic breaks occur in normal people. They are undetectable until they occur. And… wait for it… pilots are humans too!

He should be thoroughly examined by professionals and then be deemed fit for trial or treatment.

It can happen to anyone albeit extremely rarely.

[Alpine Flyer]

Does the E175 have a lockout on the handles unless there is an actual fire and the engines are running (like a Boeing)? i.e. is there also an override button for the handles?


No, it doesn't. Pulling the fire handles would also disable the automatic ignition that comes on with a flameout. To restore you'd probably have to perform a full restart. Judging from the SIM that should be doable if you have a couple thousand feet remaining.

[Alpine Flyer]

CAA to ban all pilots from the flight-deck, on flights into and out of the UK?
Maybe a wake-up regarding single-pilot plans which would leave no one to combat a suicidal pilot for longer periods.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

BoeingDriver99 - I do not think that many people are saying that they never put a foot wrong in their lives. It would indeed seem to be the case that the pilot in question had some kind of psychotic episode, possibly assisted by magic mushrooms which were taken by his own volition. If that is the case then, like anyone who commits a crime whilst under the influence of illegal drugs, he will be held as liable for his actions as if he did them whilst in his normal mind. If, however, the magic mushrooms rumour turns out to be untrue and he had an unforeseen psychotic event, that is a different story. I would be surprised to see someone like that work in aviation again, but I would have considerably more sympathy for him than if he has taken illegal drugs, whether or not he knew the possible outcomes. Ultimately, our industry is all about protecting our passengers and people on the ground - the career prospects of our pilots and crew have to take a distant second place to that prime requirement.

[First_Principal]

... Lies,damned lies and statistics ! Mark Twain ...


Actually it was one of your Prime Ministers (Disraeli) who remarked on the three kinds of lies, Clemens simply acknowledged this IIRC ;)

Apologies for the interlude, back to the music...

[mahogany bob]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Benjamin_Disraeli_by_Cornelius_Jabez_Hughes%2C_1878.jpg/220px-Benjamin_Disraeli_by_Cornelius_Jabez_Hughes%2C_1878.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Benjamin_Disraeli_by_Cornelius_Jabez_Hughes,_1878.jpg)

The origin of the phrase "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is unclear, but Mark Twain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Twain) attributed it to Benjamin Disraeli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics#cite_note-disraeli-1)"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of statistics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics) to bolster weak arguments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument), "one of the best, and best-known" critiques of applied statistics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_statistics).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWhite196415-2) It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point.

The phrase was popularized in the United States by Mark Twain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Twain) (among others), who attributed it to the British prime minister Benjamin Disraeli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics#cite_note-disraeli-1) However, the phrase is not found in any of Disraeli's works and the earliest known appearances were years after his death. Several other people have been listed as originators of the quote, and it is often attributed to Twain himself.

[megan]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
I like mushrooms on my pizza, megan.
Should I be worried?Definitely yes, a local case.

Had mushrooms pop up in my lawn one time, being an avid bush collector and consumer from childhoodI identified them as the bush non poisonace variety so cooked them up, became sick as a dog, conclusion made was the house was built on previous farm land and the mushrooms had taken up some chemical used in the farming process.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-66391325

[West Coast]

New JS procedures. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x794/img_3990_edb09a8ae939c7b1d6bf711a676443cc9772564a.jpeg

[mickjoebill]

The indepth analysis of how the activation of fire suppression effects flight, will be highlighted in the terror manuals under heading "what experienced pilots do to disable an aircraft"
Was it necessary to reveal the details of what he attempted to do immediately after the event when media and public interest is strongest?
A generic, "struggle in the cockpit" would have sufficed?

​
Mjb

[Semreh]

I have every respect for professional pilots. I am not one myself, and I am not qualified to comment on piloting skills. I have expertise in other areas, though.

I would be careful about commenting on the time elapsed between ingestion of hallucinogenic substances and their effect on mental states. As PTSD sufferers would attest, a single event some time in the past can have ramifications decades in the future, and significantly alter behaviour, sometimes based upon a trigger event which is inconsequential to other people.

The same is true for hallucinogens. Some people can have so-called 'flashbacks' to 'bad trips' years after ingestion of substances that alter perception and cognition, so assuming that someone's behaviour now indicates recent ingestion of hallucinogens would be a step too far.

It is unfortunate that anyone feels driven to self-medicate outside medical supervision. Society in general needs to improve attitudes towards mental health and provide better support for people with challenges in that area. Approximately one in four people will need treatment for a mental health condition at some point in their lives (WHO, 2001 - press release (https://www.who.int/news/item/28-09-2001-the-world-health-report-2001-mental-disorders-affect-one-in-four-people); WHO, 2001 - page with downloadable report, available in multiple languages (https://iris.who.int/handle/10665/42390)).

For safety's sake, we need to allow people to be open about their mental health, and be able to seek, and receive appropriate help. Perhaps loss-of-income insurance as a result of a mental health diagnosis should be mandatory for flight-deck personnel?

[421dog]

Maybe, we should just agree that pilots taking hallucinogens of any sort is likely not in the best interest of public safety…

[grizzled]

mickjoebill...

Hear Hear!
To me, this thread (or portions thereof) is a perfect example of the hazards -- the downside perhaps -- of the internet.

[jolihokistix]

I have every respect for professional pilots. I am not one myself, and I am not qualified to comment on piloting skills. I have expertise in other areas, though.

I would be careful about commenting on the time elapsed between ingestion of hallucinogenic substances and their effect on mental states. As PTSD sufferers would attest, a single event some time in the past can have ramifications decades in the future, and significantly alter behaviour, sometimes based upon a trigger event which is inconsequential to other people.

The same is true for hallucinogens. Some people can have so-called 'flashbacks' to 'bad trips' years after ingestion of substances that alter perception and cognition, so assuming that someone's behaviour now indicates recent ingestion of hallucinogens would be a step too far.

It is unfortunate that anyone feels driven to self-medicate outside medical supervision. Society in general needs to improve attitudes towards mental health and provide better support for people with challenges in that area. Approximately one in four people will need treatment for a mental health condition at some point in their lives (WHO, 2001 - press release (https://www.who.int/news/item/28-09-2001-the-world-health-report-2001-mental-disorders-affect-one-in-four-people); WHO, 2001 - page with downloadable report, available in multiple languages (https://iris.who.int/handle/10665/42390)).

For safety's sake, we need to allow people to be open about their mental health, and be able to seek, and receive appropriate help. Perhaps loss-of-income insurance as a result of a mental health diagnosis should be mandatory for flight-deck personnel?

Hear, hear.
I wanted to say much of this, but waited, hoping for someone more able to express it in suitable language. Thank you.

[BeechCrafty]

Looks like a very strange individual.


no, he looks like cool, fun guy

[Herod]

Semreh. I agree with what you are saying, but there is an important qualification. The person NEEDS TO KNOW they have a problem. Many mental health organisations say they know of people with problems, but can't help them.
My own case: I suffer from PTSD, but refused to accept what friends were telling me. It wasn't until one of my oldest friends said "PTSD", that I acknowledged it. I sought help, got it, and now, although not cured (there is no cure), I can manage it and live a normal life.

[mike734]

Really?
Based on what exactly?
A goofy picture during cruise, likely an empty reposition flight?
is that a knee behind him in that photo? A flight attendant knee perhaps? I’m just asking. It looks like a knee.

[pkormann]

The Medical paradox in aviation.... something that needs to be very well discussed

[Sam Ting Wong]

I believe Mahogany is right, pilot-less aircraft will come, and rather sooner than later.
Initially, driver-less/ semi-automated cars will become a normal sight, and tear down mental barriers of passengers with it. Pilots will then be degraded to some sort of tube driver: monitoring a more or less fully automated and fool proof system. In solitude, for mediocre pay. Complete replacement will follow, but doesn't really matter anymore, the job scope will be so boring it will come as relief.

Nobody entering this industry today in his 20's will retire as a pilot.

[70 Mustang]

I believe Mahogany is right, pilot-less aircraft will come, and rather sooner than later.
Initially, driver-less/ semi-automated cars will become a normal sight, and tear down mental barriers of passengers with it. Pilots will then be degraded to some sort of tube driver: monitoring a more or less fully automated and fool proof system. In solitude, for mediocre pay. Complete replacement will follow, but doesn't really matter anymore, the job scope will be so boring it will come as relief.

Nobody entering this industry today in his 20's will retire as a pilot.

If only on your time line. What "driverless" activity do we encounter in life today?

Military drones, UAVs, a few trains on fixed tracks between terminals at airports.

Will there be doctor-less hospitals? Cook-less restaurants?

Perhaps the best places to start "driverless" would be the House of Reptiles and House of Snakes in Washington and the House of Penquins and House of Lards in London.

How else will they be able to make "idiot" movies like "Plane"? (that just came out on Sky TV).

[Lonewolf_50]

monitoring a more or less fully automated and fool proof system. You are advocating for what is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Just out of curiosity: is Cathay Pacific deliberately driving their pilots into the ground, and driving them away, in order to make way for a pilotless service for their paying passengers?

[Tango and Cash]

I believe Mahogany is right, pilot-less aircraft will come, and rather sooner than later.
Initially, driver-less/ semi-automated cars will become a normal sight, and tear down mental barriers of passengers with it. Pilots will then be degraded to some sort of tube driver: monitoring a more or less fully automated and fool proof system. In solitude, for mediocre pay. Complete replacement will follow, but doesn't really matter anymore, the job scope will be so boring it will come as relief.

Nobody entering this industry today in his 20's will retire as a pilot.

While I believe pilot-less airplanes are more likely to enter widespread service long before driver-less cars, the chance of either happening anytime soon is slim to none. The level of FAA scrutiny (see 737 Max fiasco) and reliability requirements make pilot-less aircraft a long, hard road. Single pilot commercial operations (pilot to monitor the automation and take over if something goes wrong) maybe in that 20-something new pilot's career.

Self driving cars--unlikely to succeed until human driven cars are banned--the idiot factor from other drivers/pedestrians is just too high for any sort of computer programming to predict and cope with.

[WillowRun 6-3]

Of course a lawsuit has been filed.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/alaska-airlines-sued-over-attempt-by-off-duty-pilot-shut-down-engines-2023-11-03/

[BFSGrad]

Of course a lawsuit has been filed.
From the linked article, this odd paragraph:

The passengers in the lawsuit have asked for a public explanation from Alaska Air and Horizon Air as to why the pilot was not subjected to preflight security screening.

I’ve not seen any evidence that the Emerson was not subjected to the same preflight security screening as any other jump seat occupant. It’s not as if he brought a weapon or explosive into the cockpit. The dangerous item that slipped past the security screening was Emerson’s brain.

[WillowRun 6-3]

BFSGrad
The entire lawsuit filing is absurd . . . but I'm trying not to waste electronic ink on it. Several previous pointless lawsuits have been derided here. Perhaps this one reaches some new low for ignorance.

[tdracer]

‘Is this hell?’ Alaska pilot accused of trying to crash a plane tells his story | The Seattle Times (https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/is-this-hell-alaska-pilot-accused-of-trying-to-crash-a-plane-tells-his-story/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Evening+Brief+11-10-23_11_10_2023&utm_term=Active%20subscriber)

The pilot said he knew he was having mental health issues and depression and see a therapist, but was afraid to report it for fear of being grounded by the FAA.
I'm thinking we need better ways to deal with pilots who self-report health issues - especially mental health issues. Last thing the industry needs is another 'Germanwings" catastrophe.

[hoistop]

This man, Emerson, is not a criminal. He is obviously sick and idea of taking mushrooms took him down - but it could be something else some days later. He should not be in jail but under treatment in medical institution. and charge of 83 attemped murder is beyond belief - even if he succeeded in switching engines off, it would not be the end of it. There were two able pilots in the cockpit and cabin crew was available to help put him under control - quite different situation than Germanwings. From what I read he was obviously excellent pilot and a good man, but mental problems took him down. Which of course does not make his action negligible - mentally sick people in the cockpit are ticking time bombs. So the question is how he ended up in the cockpit in such a state? Fear from losing his medical/licence/livehood brought him to self-medication instead of proper tretment. And there was no safety net below him that would prevent a catastrophe in his life if he honestly did what should have been done - but this is the only way to prevent another Germanwings and not just simply destroying any pilot`s life if s/he declares mental problems. But there is another, more difficult thing to solve: enormous pressure on pilots, as they are struggling with ever increasing demands from employers and with huge burden of training debt around their necks. No wonder that here and there someone succumbs to all the pressure/weight on their shoulders. Just add some financial issue or family matter or sick kid, and it might be the last straw. We went too far.

[Uplinker]

..

........So maximum efforts should be made by the airlines to ensure that stress on aircrew is kept to a minimum .Reading some of the threads on ‘conditions ‘ I am not sure that this is happening

While customers click on the £59 flight, instead of the £259 flight; pressure and stress on crews is unlikely to reduce.

(just making up figures to illustrate the point).

Airlines claim that safety is their primary concern, but surely cash flow and profit is. Otherwise, why do they continually run with not quite enough aircrew, meaning that those aircrew who are employed have to work intensive rosters and long days, starting or finishing in the small hours ?

[blind pew]

It doesn’t come down to fare price but company procedures and the calibre of staff, not only HR but the whole management team including pilots and training.<br />Trust me I’ve seen and experienced diabolical treatment as did my wife in « expensive » flag carriers..one only have to have a quick gander at that lot in Hong Kong and what they post going back to the 49ers when the rot started.<br /&

[PukinDog]

This man, Emerson, is not a criminal..

You might want to re-think that assertion because lying on the Medical Certificate application is, in fact, a Federal crime. You can get 5 years just for that. So can your AME if he falsifies it. Looks like this guy obtained a Medical not too long ago but is telling the cops he's been feeling depressed for a much longer period. Not looking good for him being "not a criminal".

[megan]

Not looking good for him being "not a criminal"A lot of criminals flying for the airlines, and others, going by that proposition Pukin, you can find a lot of discussion here about keeping your DAME and private doctor well apart. Unfortunately the FAA, from what I read, seems somewhat backward in its approach to mental health, locally our regulator allows the use of anti depressants and keep flying if the individual case warrants. Some seem to treat mental issues as an axe murderer just waiting to explode, there is a vast range of symptoms to the disease, each requiring a tailored treatment.

I speak from experience, following an airborne event I spent eighteen months visiting the doc with nebulous complaints, in the end I asked my good Lady to get me to hospital where they bombed me out, four months of treatment and was back in the cockpit, on anti depressants. Before hospital admission got to see why folk find the suicide door as a viable way out. Know of a 747 skipper who was on anti depressants in another country whose regulator took an enlightened approach to the subject, and a number of aviators in my own country.

[PukinDog]

A lot of criminals flying for the airlines, and others, going by that proposition Pukin, you can find a lot of discussion here about keeping your DAME and private doctor well apart. Unfortunately the FAA, from what I read, seems somewhat backward in its approach to mental health, locally our regulator allows the use of anti depressants and keep flying if the individual case warrants. Some seem to treat mental issues as an axe murderer just waiting to explode, there is a vast range of symptoms to the disease, each requiring a tailored treatment.

I speak from experience, following an airborne event I spent eighteen months visiting the doc with nebulous complaints, in the end I asked my good Lady to get me to hospital where they bombed me out, four months of treatment and was back in the cockpit, on anti depressants. Before hospital admission got to see why folk find the suicide door as a viable way out. Know of a 747 skipper who was on anti depressants in another country whose regulator took an enlightened approach to the subject, and a number of aviators in my own country.

Encouraging story Megan . I'm happy you got back in the saddle, and applaud you for being willing to share it here. The problem is too many assume that just seeking and receiving mental health treatment automatically spells the end of their career when, in fact and not unlike other medical conditions, there are avenues back into the cockpit.

There are treatments for some mental health issues that are approved by the FAA, including the use of some specific antidepressants. Not sure if they're "backwards", as they also take the individuals on a case-by-case basis for review. One's AME can't issue the medical certificate, but rather they make a request for Special Issuance by the main Aeromedical Branch in Oklahoma City. (this process isn't reserved for mental health issues, by the way, but often required for physical health issues after certain procedures) If interested, here https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/app_process/exam_tech/item47/amd/antidepressants. You may be able to determine if the FAA would also have approved you as your local regulator did.

In this way (avenues back) it's no different than having a heart, blood pressure, or other physical condition that is initially disqualifying and potentially career-ending, at which point one who works with the AME using treatments, procedures, and medications that are FAA- approved. This ensures clear records when the review for approval time comes. The good news is that the treatments and list of medications are far more liberal than what was in the past. Too many get into trouble lying on their medical application for things that aren't permanently grounding anymore, and plenty are flying around with conditions that back in 1990 would've put them involuntarily on a different career path. Yes there are hoops to jump through but that goes with the territory in this profession and always will, we just feel less confident with less control if it's a medical condition rather than hoops that directly measures our performance.

Psilocybin, however, will never become an FAA-approved medication, clinical trial success or not. It's not as if little is known about the stuff and other hallucinogens, and these current studies aren't the first. For 25 years even the CIA was seeking-out and experimenting with them, lab-produced and natural, tromping through jungles and mountains around the world in search of native plants, potions, and concoctions that could potentially be tweaked for use as a "truth serum" or a key to unlocking brainwashing. Research wasn't limited to LSD. By the 70's, however, they had given up that chase because the substances were always found to produce unpredictable results with a high probability of negative psychoactive effects even under tightly-controlled conditions which rendered them, for their purposes, worthless. These negatives have been known for a long time.

Those well-known negatives are why present-day clinical trials have a very narrow aim; to explore psilocybin's potential use as a medication of last resort for cases resistant to other, safer and more predictable treatments for PTSD, Depression, etc. Even if approved for medical use, it will never be an initial go-to medication. That would be like immediately doing heart transplants on patients that could be treated with an angioplasty or a bypass. No matter what, you'll never see psilocybin or similar hallucinogens on the FAA's list of approved medications.

I made the point I did to Hoistop because I saw his Location was listed as "Europe" and wasn't sure if he realized that on a US FAA Medical application providing false answers to any question is indeed a prosecutable crime under the US Code, stated as such right where one signs their name to the document. I've held a couple foreign Medical certificates in order to fly non-US reg aircraft but not a European one so don't know if it's considered a crime there. I was just trying to provide some context for him as to how the US Government sees it. Whether or not the Feds choose to prosecute after the actual facts are known and not just we've heard, remains to be seen. On the issue of falsifying, however, I believe it will be the stick not the carrot.

I'm aware some don't disclose, but no one should ever mistake me for being the morality police. People make their own choice knowing the risks, and if it doesn't end well for them they can't say they weren't warned. There seems to be an undertone that being grounded, or the fear of being grounded, is reserved for disclosing mental health conditions or treatments when, in fact, the same applies to any health issue or treatment. I don't believe there will ever be an exception made for mental health issues that guarantees one's Medical Certificate remains valid while they sort out the case and it goes through review.

This guy will feel pretty dumb if finds out that there was an FAA-approved avenue he could have taken instead of going straight for an illegal substance the FAA will never approve just because the FAA drug screenings don't test for it.

[megan]

Thanks for the facts re the FAA position Pukin. :ok:

Re the autonomous aircraft, if the the pax won't accept a one pilot airliner I doubt very much they will accept zero.AIPA Media Release:Passengers reject single-pilot flights: new pollThe vast majority of Australians would feel less safe and be more hesitant to book a ticket for a flight with only one pilot, new polling reveals.

Commercial airline flights are currently required to have at least two pilots - but some airlines, manufacturers and regulators are exploring reduced-crew and single-pilot operations in order to cut costs.

However, new data released by the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) shows reducing the number of pilots on a flight deck would be extremely unpopular with the public.

A total of 89% of Australians would feel less safe boarding a flight with one pilot at the controls instead of two or more, according to a Redbridge Group poll of 1,022 Australian adults.

That includes 65% who would feel much less safe and a further 24% who would feel a little less safe. Only two per cent would feel safer.

The polling also revealed:

83% would be more hesitant to book a commercial airline ticket if they knew there was only one pilot at the controls.
88% believe Australian airlines should rule out single pilot operations for commercial flights.
88% believe the Australian government should mandate at least two pilots on the flight deck at all times for all commercial airline flights operating within Australian airspace.
Only 21% of Australians are aware of the push to reduce the required number of pilots on a flight deck.

“It’s clear the Australian public is fiercely opposed to single-pilot flights - and they have good reason,” said Captain Tony Lucas, AIPA President.

“Flying is the safest mode of transport because airlines have redundancy in the form of at least two engines, electric and hydraulic systems, flight management computers, and, crucially, two pilots.

“A single pilot could become incapacitated, fatigued or simply overwhelmed in an emergency at 35,000 ft and 950 km/h.

“Reducing the number of pilots required on the flight deck undoubtedly reduces safety margins for the passengers, crew and the wider public.

“This polling shows the public understands that, and therefore any airline which decides to adopt reduced-crew operations stands to lose customers to competitors offering a safer trip.

“The only safe way to fly is with at least two well-trained and well-rested pilots at the controls at all times.”

Several airlines including Cathay Pacific and Lufthansa are working on reduced crew operations. The European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) is also working with manufacturers to study the regulatory changes required for reduced crew and single pilot operations.

On 27 March 2023, a collection of pilots’ unions from around the world formed a global Coalition against single pilot operations. In a strongly worded statement, the International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) said “an aggressive corporate-led lobbying campaign was targeting regulators around the world” to try to make single-pilot operations a reality. The campaign can be accessed at the website: www.safetystartswith2.com (https://u26892420.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=HyZW1gd57mn8nhTC3u0zhSKcG3Lb-2Bl6LJFL7R3jLuruoiKqbjbEijqiOxxlyB6-2FV7mfk_wlpxo6y8JC38jRmxfgQjyxXl21dA7AKKHYobiH4h0Xiv6n1QgUPK LZY3lE5Stht0fLIAhbQpJpwbkEUm9vWELfQa4iJoaxIR4Vbl-2FLbLRTzxwnNcbejxyIbp4Orob1T76uu-2BxntpvnBXLZHPopc-2BaslDPkLEkab5e2DvqqdCv5IIIejNLZegKjg-2ByaFEDxEPsFmhvof7MsKOwWsQRuNZ6Ay9yInDsZrqMKprci0SFHtbRSTOSL UuFMm9QRPpAXPfFnJ4BUYv2MP9hpFHpM0ZsqoGQtOWwkJuXqQw7GN8pYgxaS A7s-2BVzD-2FwpLWfYqSbyBRwWKzaHrgVRzINQLEsTxbIjM4RgT-2BEYUdz9YH739oY-3D)

[Semreh]

I made the point I did to Hoistop because I saw his Location was listed as "Europe" and wasn't sure if he realized that on a US FAA Medical application providing false answers to any question is indeed a prosecutable crime under the US Code, stated as such right where one signs their name to the document. I've held a couple foreign Medical certificates in order to fly non-US reg aircraft but not a European one so don't know if it's considered a crime there. I was just trying to provide some context for him as to how the US Government sees it. Whether or not the Feds choose to prosecute after the actual facts are known and not just we've heard, remains to be seen. On the issue of falsifying, however, I believe it will be the stick not the carrot.

I'm aware some don't disclose, but no one should ever mistake me for being the morality police. People make their own choice knowing the risks, and if it doesn't end well for them they can't say they weren't warned. There seems to be an undertone that being grounded, or the fear of being grounded, is reserved for disclosing mental health conditions or treatments when, in fact, the same applies to any health issue or treatment. I don't believe there will ever be an exception made for mental health issues that guarantees one's Medical Certificate remains valid while they sort out the case and it goes through review.

This guy will feel pretty dumb if finds out that there was an FAA-approved avenue he could have taken instead of going straight for an illegal substance the FAA will never approve just because the FAA drug screenings don't test for it.

You write a great deal of sense.

I'll just point out that there is a material difference between not reporting a somatic (physical) illness/disablement and a mental illness. In the case of a mental illness, the part of the body responsible for making and taking decisions is not working properly, which means that your ability to make a rational choice can be affected.

People who are depressed experience reality in a very different way to people who are not depressed. If you have not been through it yourself, it is difficult to appreciate the difference. People make poor 'life decisions' when depressed.

This is not saying that people who have mental health problems should have a free pass to lie on medical declarations. Far from it. However, if you want people to be honest, basic psychology tells us that it is better to reward honesty than punish dishonesty. People need to believe that there is a supportive path back, which is why Megan's disclosure is important.

The reality is that some, or maybe even many, will not make it back. How that is dealt with in a fashion that doesn't leave people feeling that their useful life is over is a difficult question, but one that needs answering. Depression erases hope. If people are to report problems, they need a well-founded belief that their future is manageable.

Again, I am not a professional pilot, my experience is in other fields. But I would like well-rested, well-adjusted, rational professionals in the hot seat.

[Lookleft]

Again, I am not a professional pilot, my experience is in other fields. But I would like well-rested, well-adjusted, rational professionals in the hot seat.

Then I suggest that you use the train or drive particularly with the well rested part. Despite the introduction of fatigue rules the airlines and the regulators are pushing the limits to the maximum. There is a very good reason why there is a world-wide pilot shortage.

[MechEngr]

The greater mental health risk to flying a plane is unsubstantiated confidence, which causes crashes on the regular. I'd rather have someone on medication for depression in Row 0 than Captain Confidence at the controls.

[megan]

Mech, our regulator did a study on pilots who were on anti depressants and compared them to the rest as to how safety was affected, they found the anti depressant lot had a better safety record, but because of the small sample size they didn't give their findings any credence.

[Lake1952]

The jumpsuit pilot who had this mental health crisis has been charged with 83 counts of attempted murder. A grand jury in Oregon has chosen to bring a lesser charge against the pilot, a misdemeanor level crime with 83 counts of endangering another person. The felony charge of endangering an aircraft remains however. The pilot has remained in jail since the October incident.

https://www.opb.org/article/2023/12/05/alaska-airlines-pilot-portland-san-francisco-mental-health-crime/#:~:text=Instead%2C%20jurors%20opted%20this%20week,endangeri ng%20an%20aircraft%2C%20a%20felony.

[WillowRun 6-3]

Federal criminal charges also remain possible.