Titan A321 loses windows

[Twiglet1]

Accident: Titan A21N at London on Oct 4th 2023, lost 3 windows, stabilizer damage (avherald.com) (http://avherald.com/h?article=50faa50b&opt=0)

[atakacs]

The British AAIB reported it was discovered three cabin windows were missing or loose,

I guess there were no pax in the cabin ?

[CW247]

Another engineering related incident:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/27860-mayday-incident-in-gatwick-engine-stall-report

[First.officer]

Another engineering related incident:

Another? how the heck do you come to the conclusion this was "Another engineering related incident"? I might also add that the instance to which you link, was a third party input and failing, and not Titan's own MX facility/staff.

[Airbanda]

Does the Y suffix to the flight number (AWC305Y) imply a positioning flight?

AWC305 was used subsequently by another A321 flying Orlando to Cairns in several legs.

[DaveReidUK]

Does the Y suffix to the flight number (AWC305Y) imply a positioning flight?

AWC305 was used subsequently by another A321 flying Orlando to Cairns in several legs.

Here's a clue:

T1DJ5EPb92o

The aircraft involved was G-OATW - the clue's in the registration. :O

Orlando appears to be the start point for the ATW tour.

[EXDAC]

How are the cabin windows retained in this aircraft?

I've spent a lot of time in flight test aircraft that had no interior and, for all those aircraft (Douglas), the windows were larger than the fuselage hole and held in place by clips. The clips simply held the window against the seal and didn't do much when the fuselage was pressurized.

[pilotmike]

Possibly the aircraft had been specially prepared for a secret evacuation of Vladimir Putin?

[AeroAmigo]

Interestingly the aircraft involved G-OATW was previously registered as G-GBNI, painted in full UK government colours, as was G-XATW when it operated a similar role. To anyone in the know, why were these aircraft procured for that role and then immediately removed from it? I know G-GBNI was used on quite a few state visits. Sorry to sidetrack from the original post but this incident seemingly could quite easily have occurred with the UK prime minister on this exact air frame, which would have made a few headlines i’m sure.

[N707ZS]

The fat one wouldn't have gone out of the window but the thin one might have!

[AeroAmigo]

Interestingly the aircraft involved G-OATW was previously registered as G-GBNI, painted in full UK government colours, as was G-XATW when it operated a similar role. To anyone in the know, why were these aircraft procured for that role and then immediately removed from it? I know G-GBNI was used on quite a few state visits. Sorry to sidetrack from the original post but this incident seemingly could quite easily have occurred with the UK prime minister on this exact air frame, which would have made a few headlines i’m sure.


To add, it seems that G-POWT, a slightly older (????) A321NEO has now been re-registered as G-GBNI, and what was G-GBNI has now become G-OATW that aircraft involved in this incident. Why the frame swap i wonder.

[bonzy]

Previous weeks to this incident, Titan had another aircraft with engine problems that turned back on two separate sectors out of Stansted.

[Opsbeatch]

I'd be interested to see how the maintenance company removed the original decals. If any heat guns were used near the windows then this could have caused some issues.

OB

[DaveReidUK]

I'd be interested to see how the maintenance company removed the original decals. If any heat guns were used near the windows then this could have caused some issues.

You're getting warm :O

According to the AAIB, prior to the flight a filming event had involved the use of high power lights which resulted in damage to the windows (presumably from heat).

AAIB Special Bulletin S2/2023: Airbus A321-253NX, G-OATW - GOV.UK ( (https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-special-bulletin-s2-slash-2023-airbus-a321-253nx-g-oatw)www.gov.uk)

[Bogner]

The livery looks quite dark, wonder if that was a factor in it absorbing more energy?

[dixi188]

Back around 1981 at BCAL there was a film shoot, ("Caledonian Girls"), inside a DC-10 that used external lighting. After the filming was over we had to change several cabin windows that had been cooked by the lights.
I would have thought modern LED lighting would not have been a problem.

[Ivor_Bigunn]

Wow!

From the AAIB Special Report, it appears that the Light Sets used for filming the plane on the previous day each had a power rating of up to 12KW. That must be a lot of Infrared!

Here is their photo:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/872x1001/lights_ec9fa0dac50a852084b5ab880979acc2316dac95.jpg

And the units are named as: "Maxibrute 12".

Hmmmm........

And it seems that they cooked the rubber seals around many windows, causing 2 window assemblies to depart completely and several others to show damage.

The steel window retaining frame was undamaged as seen here:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/939x832/lights2_d8f58e9cbd7fffd0f82a440097e687fa48e02e8d.jpg
An amazing incident, but fortunately not one likely to recur very often, I think.

IB

[Lonewolf_50]

IB: they blew a seal, did they?

[Private jet]

Back around 1981 at BCAL there was a film shoot, ("Caledonian Girls").

I remember that TV ad, A bunch of ugly, fat, balding "businessmen" lusting after subservient female cabin staff. Cheesy with the Beach Boys soundtrack, and off the chart creepy in every other respect. Even by the standards of the time, who thought that was a good idea?
Anyways apologies for the drift.
Back in my first "career" as an aircraft engineer, during my apprenticeship, I was given the task of changing all the cabin windows in a B1-11, it was at that time I learned a valuable life lesson. The more you do, the more you're given to do.....

[Lonewolf_50]

I remember that TV ad, A bunch of ugly, fat, balding "businessmen" lusting after subservient female cabin staff. Cheesy with the Beach Boys soundtrack, and off the chart creepy in every other respect. Uh did you bother to look at the advert? Fat? Your memory fails you, and beyond that ... You're No Fun Anymore :p
You're no fun anymore.

[Flyhighfirst]

I guess there were no pax in the cabin ?

There were 9 passengers onboard as well as the crew. The passengers were all airline staff getting a free flight to Orlando.

[Flyhighfirst]

Interestingly the aircraft involved G-OATW was previously registered as G-GBNI, painted in full UK government colours, as was G-XATW when it operated a similar role. To anyone in the know, why were these aircraft procured for that role and then immediately removed from it? I know G-GBNI was used on quite a few state visits. Sorry to sidetrack from the original post but this incident seemingly could quite easily have occurred with the UK prime minister on this exact air frame, which would have made a few headlines i’m sure.

Has nobody read the story? The plane was being used for a movie, commercial ad… they had massive lighting rigs set up next to the fuselage to simulate sunrise while filming. The lights were placed to close and melted sole components. Reports also that during filming the lighting rigs, weighing I presume a lot struck the aircraft several times.

[pilotmike]

Has nobody read the story? The plane was being used for a movie, commercial ad… they had massive lighting rigs set up next to the fuselage to simulate sunrise while filming. The lights were placed to close and melted sole components. Reports also that during filming the lighting rigs, weighing I presume a lot struck the aircraft several times.
Ah! The wisdom of hindsight!

Has nobody (Flyhighfirst) followed the timeline and noticed that AeroAmigo wrote their thoughts 3 weeks before the AAIB report was published?

[DaveReidUK]

Ah! The wisdom of hindsight!

Has nobody (Flyhighfirst) followed the timeline and noticed that AeroAmigo wrote their thoughts 3 weeks before the AAIB report was published?

Is there an obscure connection between AeroAmigo's observations on the history of the aircraft and what subsequently happened?

[pilotmike]

Is there an obscure connection between AeroAmigo's observations on the history of the aircraft and what subsequently happened?
I don't know, David, is there? You're the one who appears to know everything. I think we should be told!

AeroAmigo's hypothetical point was that:this incident seemingly could quite easily have occurred with the UK prime minister on this exact air frame
However that was before we / they learned the facts, and the cause (overheating by radiation from lighting rigs) which happened after the prime minister used the aircraft.

Unless of course your point is that the PM is really feeling the heat, he's very much in the spotlight, and will he hold it together under pressure? Maybe that's the obscure connection you allude to, and I claim my prize!

[DaveReidUK]

Unless of course your point is that the PM is really feeling the heat, he's very much in the spotlight, and will he hold it together under pressure? Maybe that's the obscure connection you allude to, and I claim my prize!

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment. :O

[AeroAmigo]

Has nobody read the story? The plane was being used for a movie, commercial ad… they had massive lighting rigs set up next to the fuselage to simulate sunrise while filming. The lights were placed to close and melted sole components. Reports also that during filming the lighting rigs, weighing I presume a lot struck the aircraft several times.

As stated by pilotmike, I made the comments regarding the change of airframe registration and colour scheme weeks before the AAIB report was released, further to that, I was asking a question regarding why the roles would be rotated between the airframes in the manner that they have, regardless of what led to the incident. I even felt the need to apologise for taking the thread off track...

Is there an obscure connection between AeroAmigo's observations on the history of the aircraft and what subsequently happened?

I mean I don't think it was that obscure at the time given the information that I had, it was used previously by the government to transport the prime minister, that's a fact, and then (as far as I knew at the time) had an issue with windows being out of place or missing forcing it to return to Stansted. My point being that it would have gotten plenty of traction in the media should that incident have occurred with the prime minister aboard.

I don't know, David, is there? You're the one who appears to know everything. I think we should be told!

AeroAmigo's hypothetical point was that:
However that was before we / they learned the facts, and the cause (overheating by radiation from lighting rigs) which happened after the prime minister used the aircraft.

Unless of course your point is that the PM is really feeling the heat, he's very much in the spotlight, and will he hold it together under pressure? Maybe that's the obscure connection you allude to, and I claim my prize!

Thank you pilotmike. I know I'm certainly feeling the heat after having to answer for myself like that anyway :)

Anyway, The report is very interesting, quite a unique incident to say the least!

[Sonic Bam]

TUI had a similar occurrence in the hangar at LTN on a 787 - aircraft being used to make an ad, high power light outside the aircraft to simulate bright sunlight in the cabin, cabin window panes softened and the material slumped - luckily noticed by the engineers before the aircraft left the hangar.

[FlightlessParrot]

TUI had a similar occurrence in the hangar at LTN on a 787 - aircraft being used to make an ad, high power light outside the aircraft to simulate bright sunlight in the cabin, cabin window panes softened and the material slumped - luckily noticed by the engineers before the aircraft left the hangar.
Can I ask how this can happen? Assuming the lights are LEDs and a reasonable distance from the aircraft, I'm surprised they can heat the windows more than the sun in, say, the Arizona desert or central Australia, where aircraft are parked for years. And if the lights really are that powerful, is it a safe environment for actors?

[TWT]

Assuming the lights are LEDs

​​​​​​​They weren't. See post #17

[Less Hair]

200 degrees Celsius for hours.

[dixi188]

I wonder about the heat treatment of the surrounding structure, Aluminiun alloy or Carbon Composite.

[Ivor_Bigunn]

In my Post #17, my remark about it being a lot of InfraRed was a bit speculatve, just based on a basic knowledge of physics. No conventional lamp can output 1KW of pure visible light.

But I have subsequently checked on Wikipedia about Tungsten Lamps, and found:

"Incandescent bulbs are much less efficient than other types of electric lighting. Less than 5% of the energy they consume is converted into visible light; the rest is lost as heat."

So I think I was basically correct.

But running that spread of "Maxibrute 12" lights at full power would require a 72KW power supply. That is an Industrial installation. And did they really run it for 5 hours on one side, and 4.5 hours on the other as the report states? That is about £180 of electricity.

IB

[MechEngr]

A possible aggravation is if the window tends to absorb IR and start to soften before reaching a temperature high enough to re-radiate what was coming in. The surrounding material can at least conduct the heat to unlit areas, but the seals would form an insulating break in that path. Also the window material itself will not conduct heat nearly as well as aluminum or carbon fiber can.

Per this polycarbonate (LEXAN (R)) absorbs nearly all long wave IR: https://www.gsoptics.com/images/diags/Lexan_HF1130-112L.jpg

Thermal is typically 10,000nm and this looks to be entirely opaque above 3,000 nm

[FlightlessParrot]

They weren't. See post #17
That, then, does indeed explain it. Though the motivation for my post was the assumption that everyone would be using LEDs by now, and they were identified by brand name, not type.

[pilotmike]

TUI had a similar occurrence in the hangar at LTN on a 787 - aircraft being used to make an ad, high power light outside the aircraft to simulate bright sunlight in the cabin, cabin window panes softened and the material slumped - luckily noticed by the engineers before the aircraft left the hangar.
What a pity there isn't a reliable reporting system which reaches all parties, so that shared lessons can be learned from each other… a reporting system in a proper 'no-blame' culture, that was trusted, where everyone felt they could use it for ANY flight safety concern, without fear of reprisals or retributions… ha ha ha!

That would save everyone from having to make the same mistake to learn the same lesson. Who knows - it could even save money, even save lives!

OK, dreaming over - back to reality.

[pilotmike]

But running that spread of "Maxibrute 12" lights at full power would require a 72KW power supply. That is an Industrial installation. And did they really run it for 5 hours on one side, and 4.5 hours on the other as the report states? That is about £180 of electricity.

IB
It could very easily have cost lives instead of just embarrassment and many tens of thousands in repairs and lost revenue.

[WelshGeorge]

Shame to hear this all about Titan - they used to be a very tight and successful outfit.

[DTA]

AAIB report on this incident is released today:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/aaib-report-airbus-a321-253nx-g-oatw-on-4-october-2023

A couple of snapshots from the report (from other filming events):

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/753x508/w1_88124dc7adf1fea244ea46461f57792ff1fd34fe.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/764x765/w2_eaa6e9800f840212e6ebf639982ae29addadc9d3.jpg

[blue up]

Cripes! If it did that to clear windows then what has it done to the plastic fuselage? How do you detect heat damage through Carbon fuselage sections? I assume crack detection isn't the solution.

[Tango and Cash]

Not the first time, as other posters have noted, and it happens to spacecraft as well. The Frontiers of Flight Museum at Dallas Love Field (KDAL) has the Apollo 7 command module on display. One of the side windows has a melted spot with bubbles trapped inside the 'glass'. A plaque nearby notes that this window survived the heat of re-entry, but was damaged by lights used in filming a documentary several years later.

While the windows didn't get anywhere near the heating of the aft end, the fact that this window survived an orbital re-entry but was no match for film lights--well, those lights get d**m hot!

[tdracer]

Cripes! If it did that to clear windows then what has it done to the plastic fuselage? How do you detect heat damage through Carbon fuselage sections? I assume crack detection isn't the solution.
My understanding is - so long as it doesn't get hot enough to start outgassing the resin that holds the carbon fiber together - carbon composite construction is relatively immune to heat (strong ultra-violet light is a different matter).
It should be relatively easy to calculate the sort of temperatures the clear windows were exposed to and determine if that's a potential hazard to the composite fuselage.

[DaveReidUK]

Cripes! If it did that to clear windows then what has it done to the plastic fuselage?

Plastic fuselage?