Tel Aviv and back

[Jonty]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67081696

is it normal to carry this much fuel to Tel Aviv?

guess given the circumstances it’s an ops decision, just surprised they took enough to go all the way back to LHR. But then I guess BA have experience of losing aircraft in war zones!

[IRRenewal]

These aren't normal times.

[ATC Watcher]

I am always surprised some even (still) try to fly commercial aircraft into active war zones ., Here we have rockets fired and automated anti missile interceptions occurring just a few miles from the main airport.

[Pinkman]

If you look at the FR24 trace it appears that the transponder was switched off as the a/c approached Ben Gurion then on again a few minutes later as it stooged around to the North before heading back to UK. As Pegase Driver says - extraordinary.

[Pinkman]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/781x968/img_1804_fb892d8411439dc54165db54643ca5dee58e8eac.jpeg

[STUF]

I operated there in 2014 when Hamas was firing rockets at Israel - took as much fuel as possible!

[Union Jack]

But just think of the Avios!:)

Jack

[DaveReidUK]

If you look at the FR24 trace it appears that the transponder was switched off as the a/c approached Ben Gurion then on again a few minutes later as it stooged around to the North before heading back to UK.

Or the local FR24 feeders had simply stopped tracking it, either of their own volition or having been told to.

Or FR24 decided to suppress plots in a war zone.

Lots of possible reasons that don't involve the transponder.

[skkm]

If you look at the FR24 trace it appears that the transponder was switched off as the a/c approached Ben Gurion then on again a few minutes later as it stooged around to the North before heading back to UK. As Pegase Driver says - extraordinary.

It is not uncommon to experience GPS interference in Israeli airspace. Loss of GPS position data results in loss of ADS-B out.

[Lake1952]

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW165/history/20231011/0725Z/EGLL/EGLL/tracklog

[wiggy]

As has been said these are not normal times and whilst not wishing to say too much I think it is safe to say the fuel plan/load for destinations isn’t just blindly run only on the basis of TAFs and NOTAMS.

Even before last weeks events whilst rare it wasn't completely unknown to despatch for TLV from London with lots of gas and very distant alternates on file if there was thought to be a possibility of potential, err, issues on arrival.

Personally I never saw round trip fuel loaded/suggested though that might not have been possible in our case due to payload (it was a popular route) and max landing weight considerations for TLV.

Loss of GPS was not uncommon in that part of the Med even before current events.

I guess I must be missing something on Flightware - for the eastern portion of the flight best I'm seeing is loss of data and 9000' as a minimum alt, I’m not seeing evidence of an actual go-around..might be my lack of IT skills.

[Magplug]

A couple of years a ago there was some sort of fuel shortage in JNB. I operated a 788 freighter from London to Jo'burg tanking fuel and planned to land just below MLW. We filled it up out of LHR. We requested 03L in JNB (4418m) as opposed to the nominated landing runway in use of 03R (3400m) as we needed the extra landing distance. ATC asked us 3 time why we could not accept 03R before begrudgingly allowing us to land on 03L.

We landed with enough fuel to turn around and make anywhere in West Africa.

[Gordomac]

I was in Paphos on Friday. Cyprus is full of Israelis buying/renting not only in the South but in the North too. As the news broke, me and the memsahib felt heartfelt sorrow for those we met inthe Paphos pubs.

Netanyahu, declared a war situation. I thought all borders would be closed and, again, felt concerned for those we me who would now be stuck, all over this Island. I heard that BA had gone in & turned backy and was astonished to read in our local paper that flights were being operated, normally, to Tel Aviv.

Normal, commercial ops, into and out of a war zone. Er, is it just me ?

WAy back, same zone, I had the misfortune to work for a true cowboy outfit. Notams advised all operators to avoid the area. They did. My lot didn't. I told ops to refile a long way round, hit the crew hour problem for return, would make it back as far as I could but a three sector day meant crew party, Cardiff, at best ! Ops Cowboy asked how long I intended staying with the Company and Head Cowboy phoned to ask what my problem was.

I looked really silly in my Lone Ranger outfit anyway,, said "kimosabi" and engineered the perfect escape.

Others seemed happy enough to operate in and out of declared "to be avoided" zones. Astonishing.

[hunterboy]

It does seem to be the BA Way…maximise revenue at the expense of everything else. Just because the British Government hasn’t said not to go doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
On a separate note, if BALPA was a bit stronger, it could be making its own security recommendations. Sadly, it seems too wrapped up in its own in-fighting.

[meleagertoo]

One can only wonder what security concern could possibly prompt a g/a at minima, short of visual indications of an attack which afaik has not been reported at that airport.
Were they told to g/a by tower? Certainly no-one is listening to company ot taking ACARS messages at that point in a flight so Ops are unlikely to have intervened.
Sounds rather odd to say the least.

[megan]

Oz government has said they are sending in three flights to evacuate folk, nothing said about who will be doing the flying.

[Jonty]

British government just said the same.
I have the feeling all commercial ops will cease for the time being.

[GALWC]

At the time of several aircraft delaying their approach West of Haifa I did a Google search of any possible attack on TLV, and a local radio station came up with the info that multiple rockets were currently being fired at the airport.
BA was only just South of Haifa when I saw it turn back, certainly not a g/a from min. My assumption that it would likely head for Larnaca was soon proved wrong when it climbed to FL400 .
I have been using FR with caution in the TLV area as some things have been showing up, clearly incorrect.

[Hartington]

I know a retired BA pilot. At the beginning of Gulf War one he operated a 767 towards Saudi. He had only 17 pax but also freight. As they approached the Egyptian coast he was told Saudi airspace had closed and what did he want to do? He deciede to head back to Athens on the basis that there would be other 757/767 crew there. Once he'd turned around he looked at his fuel etc. and realised he could get back to LHR so he did. They parked him on the stand next to the one he left from "never took so long to go such a short distance".

That was what he told me when I next saw him.

[TWT]

Oz government has said they are sending in three flights to evacuate folk, nothing said about who will be doing the flying.

Oz Government has chartered some Qantas aircraft and they'll be crewed by volunteers.

[Capt Fathom]

Oz Government has chartered some Qantas aircraft and they'll be crewed by volunteers.

Sending Qantas aircraft and crew into a war zone! Why aren’t the RAAF doing the rescue?

[ATC Watcher]

Sending Qantas aircraft and crew into a war zone! Why aren’t the RAAF doing the rescue?
An interesting question . France is doing the same the Government chartered Air France A350s ( one yesterday and 2 today ) to evacuate its citizens instead of using its Military A330s. ( which they did when evacuating civilians from Mali and Niger a few months ago ),
And I read Germany is also planning to charter Lufthansa to do the evacuation of its citizens instead of its own military aircraft .

[Expatrick]

"More than 300 people arrived in Budapest on Monday on Hungarian Air Force planes as part of a joint rescue operation by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Ministry of Defense.

A few minutes after 1 p.m. on October 9, a Hungarian Defense Forces Airbus A319 landed at Budapest’s Liszt Ferenc International Airport with 110 people on board, evacuated from Tel Aviv, honvedelem.hu reports. This was the third rescue flight from Israel by the Hungarian Defense Forces."

[Gordomac]

Might be that an aircraft in civilian colours is not to be shot at.

Cyprus Airways must have seen my previous post and cancelled all flights in to and out of Tel Aviv, yesterday.

[Twiglet1]

It does seem to be the BA Way…maximise revenue at the expense of everything else. Just because the British Government hasn’t said not to go doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
On a separate note, if BALPA was a bit stronger, it could be making its own security recommendations. Sadly, it seems too wrapped up in its own in-fighting.

Most other European operators flying there at the same time. Their security teams with guidance from teams on the ground will assess the risk and also keep BALPA advised.
If the risk isn't tolerable they don't fly (unlike some other operators) The decision may have been down to if crews stopover in TLV, as you know a lot of UK carriers go there and back - BA don't because they in your words "maximise revenue at the expense of everything else" (maybe the don't)

[Capn Bloggs]

Sending Qantas aircraft and crew into a war zone! Why aren’t the RAAF doing the rescue?
Because the threat is not high enough? It's not as though Hamas has air supremacy over Tel Aviv and long-range SAMs everywhere. And I suppose if they don't get any volunteers they'll have to use the RAAF.

[Ken Borough]

Sending Qantas aircraft and crew into a war zone!

it was done with monotonous regularity during the Vietnam War, flying 707s into Saigon. But not too monotonous for those in the front seats!

[DaveReidUK]

Sending Qantas aircraft and crew into a war zone! Why aren’t the RAAF doing the rescue?

Qantas mercy flights, or at least the one that departed Heathrow just over 3 hours ago for TLV, are flying under RAAF callsigns.

[Jonty]

The Netherlands have sent one of their A330s down there.
looks like an evacuation is in full swing.

[Sailvi767]

It is not uncommon to experience GPS interference in Israeli airspace. Loss of GPS position data results in loss of ADS-B out.

This is the correct answer. Very common in that airspace.
On the subject of the fuel load I suspect the answer is as simple as fuel is cheaper in the UK than at TLV so they were tankering to save money.

[meleagertoo]

Might be that an aircraft in civilian colours is not to be shot at.

Id have thought that was the extreme of wishful thinking when you're dealing with the sort of unreconstructed savage that dimembers babies and massacres and rapes entire music festivals.

[happyjack]

It has been many years but I regularly flew BA london to Tel Aviv.I was based there. Always on a BA B767. Shooting an approach down to 200' and then returning to London??? Really? I have my doubts about this. Is it even possibly on BA 767's? If it is and BA management elected to take return fuel to home base during a war..??? Well? What to think about that?

[albatross]

Canadian RCAF is shuttling folks from Israel to Athens Greece where they can continue on commercial transport of their choice.

[wiggy]

It has been many years but I regularly flew BA london to Tel Aviv.I was based there. Always on a BA B767. Shooting an approach down to 200' and then returning to London??? Really? I have my doubts about this. Is it even possibly on BA 767's? If it is and BA management elected to take return fuel to home base during a war..??? Well? What to think about that?

767 long gone, TLV was a BA 777 :ok: /Airbus mix for a long time, I believe the aircraft involved the other day was a 78..

I think round trip fuel is certainly unusual on that sector but not that mysterious.

Yes it could have been down to cost and availability at TLV in the current circumstances but it's also quite possible that if things hadn't gone to plan (which they obviously didn't) BA decided they wanted the option of getting aircraft, crew and passengers directly back to London, rather than perhaps getting caught up in duty hours problems or who knows what somewhere such as Cyprus or Athens.

[Woolston]

On FR24 it was an A350.

[Flying Wild]

...I believe the aircraft involved the other day was a 78..

It was an A350-1000

[Lake1952]

767 long gone, TLV was a BA 777 :ok: /Airbus mix for a long time, I believe the aircraft involved the other day was a 78

Airbus A350-1000

[ACMS]

I’d be tankering as much fuel as possible if it were me too….land and get out again ASAP.

[wiggy]

Woolston/Flying wild/Lake1092 - many thanks.

[Right20deg]

Fond memories of LGW -TLV - LGW with heavy crew in the 1980s. Departed on Christmas mornings surrounded by armed police and armoured vehicles. 40 years past now. Not a popular bid for the crews.

[Trinity 09L]

German AF A350 leaving TLV, French A330 en route.

[condor17]

Wiggy , back in '73 war Trident 2 turned back from near TLV . Only back to Athens then LHR , as TLV-LHR nonstop was always a stretch .
Got turned back from LHR-Cyprus [Nicosia] in '74[ Turks invasion ] , again to Athens then LHR . Technology improved over the years for payload/range allowing longer diversions .
As well as Tafs , Notams , Politics [TLV always a difficult div. No Arab countries ; and vice versa ] , International news from papers , Ops imputs ...
Back to Glasgow from Western Isles [ Hebrides ] , rather than a nearby Isle ... Cost of inter Island ferries ..... Moscow weather ... Back to LHR from B757 days onwards , as shuttling back and forth from Helsinki-Moscow for a few days ate up the money . LHR - Bangalore , foggy time of the year . Raced down to beat the fog .. 100miles out ground staff radioed they could not see the other side of the office [ fog came in early ] raced onwards to beat fog in Chennai . Just made it , but we had 1 hrs holding fuel + div. to Muscat + reserves . Comforting.
Thus divs. and fuel carriage vary .
Hartington , were 2-3 B767s west bound from the Gulf that night . Airspace closed around them, independently all went to Nairobi . Several days later 1 came back the long way , round Indian Ocean , and around Russia to the North . Other 2 not being ETOPS qualified , awaited positioning crew who were ; and came back through Africa [ normal route ex. NBO ] .
ATC , back B4 the Wall came down , there were 4 RAF pilot qualified on B737s . They did sim chks every 3 months and supernumary trips up and down the Berlin corridors , followed by a days circuit bashing at RAF Gatow ... If politics had got tight they would have flown empty BA 73s up and down the corridors , to keep them open . As it was , in normal times you'd be in the corridor as a Mig sandwich , 1 , 500' above , 1 , 500' below . Thus Euro carriers could be crewed by mil. pilots .
And again back in history , Belfast was a volunteer destination , and in '90-'91 , B73 fleet asked for voluteers for crewing a casevac operation from Bahrain - Akrotiri , low level , hi speed to keep cabin altitude at sea level .
Needs must in aviation and situations all differ ,

rgds condor .

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1290x1007/img_1720_32de4f3f8b4c56e0e2dd0fd9c6963b141666c2b0.jpeg
Departures from TLV indicate an Australian Air Force departing to Amman?

[DaveReidUK]

Departures from TLV indicate an Australian Air Force departing to Amman?

Yes, RAAF C-17 A41-212.

Arrived in Dubai last weekend and has been busy shuttling between there and Israel/Jordan.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Yes, RAAF C-17 A41-212.

Arrived in Dubai last weekend and has been busy shuttling between there and Israel/Jordan.

Didn’t think Jordan would allow flights from TLV?

[DaveReidUK]

Didn’t think Jordan would allow flights from TLV?

I guess the Jordanians thought twice about shooting down an Australian military aircraft on a humanitarian flight ...

[megan]

Jordan had an understanding with Israel on the land border crossing when we were in the area some years ago, you could cross but nothing would appear in your passport by way of stamps etc, done so it wouldn't cause problems with any of the other Arab entities.

[dixi188]

Jordan had an understanding with Israel on the land border crossing when we were in the area some years ago, you could cross but nothing would appear in your passport by way of stamps etc, done so it wouldn't cause problems with any of the other Arab entities.
Used to go to TelAviv quite a lot in the late 90s. They would ask if you would like the passport stamp on a separate piece of paper rather than in your passport.
One time when sitting on the ramp waiting for a load, we heard a USAF C130 asking for clearance. The controller said something like, "XXX, cleared to Amman, sorry, cleared to destination......", A woops moment.

[ATC Watcher]

Didn’t think Jordan would allow flights from TLV?
There is since a few years an agreement between Israel and Jordan for overflights /landings . But not sure where it stands under the present circumstances.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I wonder if insurance cover played a part in the TLV turn back ? I cannot imagine insurance companies would want their aircraft operating in a war zone.

[GALWC]

I wonder if insurance cover played a part in the TLV turn back ? I cannot imagine insurance companies would want their aircraft operating in a war zone.
As I mentioned in a previous post, at the time of the BA turn back a local radio station was reporting that the airport was being targetted by multiple rockets from Gaza.
I don't thing there is any doubt as to the reason for the turn back.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Two things can be true at the same time.