Network Aviation PIA

[DashTrash.]

https://michaelwest.com.au/a-joyceful-farewell-looming-strike-at-qantas-miners-carrier/
this could be interesting

Last Sunday, at a meeting in Perth, pilots belonging to the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP), which covers about 80% of the around 240 pilots at Network Aviation, agreed to proceed with an application for Protected Industrial Action (PIA).That’s the same route that the division’s flight attendants plan to go down after a successful PIA vote was tallied last week, “much to the concern of management”, as one insider said. Both pilots and flight attendants are the worst paid in the Qantas Group, according to documents seen by MWM. They also miss out on rostering flexibility, optional time off and their staff perks – including basics such as meals – are down a rung from staff on the East coast.

MWM has learned that Network’s cabin crew, totalling about 300, could be on strike within a week.

Perth based Network Aviation started life as a mining charter specialist, catering to the countless thousands of fly-in-fly-out (FIFO) workers who operate Australia’s economic engine room, the iron ore mines of the Pilbara and their copper, zinc, nickel and lithium cousins. This remains its main business, but it is fast expanding into regular passenger services. It has taken over Qantas routes from Perth to Darwin, and insiders say plans to add flights from Perth to Adelaide and Hobart are well advanced.

A strike action has the capacity to severely upend Australia’s mining sector, as well as souring Alan Joyce’s farewell tour. Qantas’ resources are stretched, as one insider says, “to breaking point;” On any given day, a sick pilot or cabin crew member can throw the entire group into turmoil. Even staff now call it “Jetstar with a red tail,” – due to its ultra low-cost model.

[Colonel_Klink]

And maybe (hopefully!) this is where the move towards better terms and conditions for the entire industry - and the challenge to some arbitrary ‘wages policy’ - all begins

[PoppaJo]

And maybe (hopefully!) this is where the move towards better terms and conditions for the entire industry - and the challenge to some arbitrary ‘wages policy’ - all begins
Sure, but everyone still keeps voting the rubbish agreements up. 🤷‍♂️

[soseg]

Networks union uptake has apparently sky rocketed in recent weeks/months. This raises the question of what the hell were these pilots thinking before? Fat dumb and happy getting paid half of what the mainline guys get and suddenly now the light bulb moment occurs?

Happy to sign off on ridiculous conditions in the past all for promised expansion which they got. Bravo. The company milks the mining contracts and now you’re stealing mainline RPT. Amazing. Congratulations. All at half of what you should be getting paid. Oh and when someone goes sick and it’s about to cost QF tens of thousands of dollars for a cancelled or delayed charter flight and their FOs agree to come in and save the day for $360/day purely because they’re hour building for emirates? And now suddenly they’re annoyed?!?!

You got your jets. You have a dozen more a319s coming. And yet some of you still aren’t union members?!?!

And the small percentage of you who still didn’t vote in favour of PIA?


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/515x500/img_0004_7cd08ea7bf426a0b83829e7d5058f695d9778702.jpeg

[1234fly]

Wait till soseg realises it's not the pilots taking the work and there is a ceo that runs qantas....divide and conquer tactics seems to be working on the simple minded.

[maverick4442]

Captains saving the day for $500 a day too! Flying a A320!
Break it down less 47 percent for tax bringing it to a total $265, work a 10 hour day (Fixed day off payment) that is $26.50 an hour take home!
Might as well get a job at the local cafe most likely paying cash with zero responsibility.

[Lapon]

and now you’re stealing mainline RPT

Wrong. Mainline never 'owned' any RPT routes that Network now operate remember.

For someone who was still studying CPL exams in 2008 (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/308803-smarter-way-sitting-cpl-atpls.html#post3841248) its even richer to imply an entitlement to such, or indeed labelling NAA crews as bin chickens while simply inheriting your own SH T&Cs from your forebearers rather than your own championing.

Goodluck to NAA guys/girls anyway :ok:

[dusty99]

Networks union uptake has apparently sky rocketed in recent weeks/months. This raises the question of what the hell were these pilots thinking before? Fat dumb and happy getting paid half of what the mainline guys get and suddenly now the light bulb moment occurs?

Happy to sign off on ridiculously **** conditions in the past all for promised expansion which they got. Bravo. The company milks the mining contracts and now you’re stealing mainline RPT. Amazing. Congratulations. All at half of what you should be getting paid. Oh and when someone goes sick and it’s about to cost QF tens of thousands of dollars for a cancelled or delayed charter flight and their FOs agree to come in and save the day for $360/day purely because they’re hour building for emirates? And now suddenly they’re annoyed?!?!

You got your jets. You have a dozen more a319s coming. And yet some of you still aren’t union members?!?!

And the small percentage of you who still didn’t vote in favour of PIA?


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/515x500/img_0004_7cd08ea7bf426a0b83829e7d5058f695d9778702.jpeg
Only one dense one present here. Good one boomer. 🤦‍♂️

I think you'll find most of the gals and guys there now weren"t there for 2016 after significant growth. Maybe that has something to do with them making a stand to improve conditions now? Good luck to them.

[dr dre]

Wrong. Mainline never 'owned' any RPT routes that Network now operate remember.



No one ‘owns’ any routes. But it’s undeniable Network (along with other subsidiaries) has had a negative effect on mainline careers. The CP was publicly saying the latest batch of 320s rocking up were going to accelerate already fast promotion times. Hard words for mainline pilots who’ve been waiting two decades to get a sniff at the most junior commands.

[aussieflyboy]

Wasn’t NJS under the ‘Airlink’ brand operating most of the intra-state WA routes before Mainline became Mainline…

Can’t believe it’s taken this long for Network to get PIA going, the agreement expired years ago! Good luck to em!

[Lapon]

No one ‘owns’ any routes. But it’s undeniable Network (along with other subsidiaries) has had a negative effect on mainline careers.

I remember hearing exaclty the same thing in the early JQ days and probably true then.
With the exeption of a few high time 320s arriving to Network, none of the other subsidiaries really operate routes/frequency that justify a 737. From a 50 seat dash 8 to 110 seat B717 it a bit of a step up to justify anything else, infact most of the subsidiary flying/frequency wouldn't exist with 737s alone.

The A220 might be a different story, but that ship has all but sailed just as the JQ one did years ago.

[soseg]

Wait till soseg realises it's not the pilots taking the work and there is a ceo that runs qantas....divide and conquer tactics seems to be working on the simple minded.

Genius.

I think the post went over your head. I’m in full support of them fighting aggressively and getting some wins.

The ones I am mocking are the ones who until very recently were not part of a union. So my question stands, what were they doing twiddling their thumbs until recently?

And dont try to excuse anyone offering to come into work on a day off to save the day for $360/day. Those pilots are a big problem and my friends who work at NAA are sick of them.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Oh look, a new thread about pay and conditions...... oh wait, everyone is fighting each other again already. That didn't take long.

[soseg]

Wrong. Mainline never 'owned' any RPT routes that Network now operate remember.

For someone who was still studying CPL exams in 2008 (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/308803-smarter-way-sitting-cpl-atpls.html#post3841248) its even richer to imply an entitlement to such, or indeed labelling NAA crews as bin chickens while simply inheriting your own SH T&Cs from your forebearers rather than your own championing.

Goodluck to NAA guys/girls anyway :ok:

No, nobody “owns” a route but NAA was set up to service the resource sector primarily with charter ops for mining clients.

Perth Darwin is now a Netlink airbus.
Perth Broome same story.
Rumours of Adelaide and Hobart potentially going.

So tell me where does this stop? The company argues right aircraft right route. The bus and maggot are pretty damn similar. Then they argue that J class doesn’t sell anyway on these routes, when last year they increased Perth Hobart services as they wanted more J class on that route due to premium demand.
The Darwin and Broomes aren’t full. So you fill 140 economy seats out of 162 on the 737 or 140 economy on the a320 which I think has 180 total. What’s the difference? It’s the wages.

Mainline has the airbus 320 family on their EBA now. They could give a few of them to mainline right now instead of Network and keep them all economy to satisfy that lie about no demand for J class.

So why don’t they?

They claim the planes aren’t utilised much so they go to Network then literally, and I’m not making this up, five minutes later claim Network planes aren’t utilised enough between charters so that’s why they’ve gotten the ex-mainline RPTs.

Hundreds on hold with mainline. It’s the job almost everyone wants. It would sure help fix the lack of progression at mainline all thanks to management slowly carving everything up to poorly paid subsidiaries. Hell, it might even begin attracting people to SH if they see a stronger future there, instead people are turning it down happy to wait for an SO slot as there’s no glamour in SH.

So tell me where this is meant to end? Maybe when Netlink are running a320s between Melbourne and Sydney?
Those coming in for the 7 hours of log book time for a juicy Darwin return for $360 to save the day sure aren’t helping anyone.

Stop helping the company. Do the minimum and let them struggle. Then maybe they’ll really have no choice but to consider raising conditions when nobody answers their phone.

And no, not an entitlement just because 15 years ago I was still studying. I’ve had the older generation tell me over the years what it took to get the wins we all enjoy now especially on the LH EBA. I have thirty years left in this game as do my friends and colleagues. So excuse me for getting a little annoyed when all I’ve seen in my short time in the group is a continuous erosion of everything and expansion only in the subsidiaries.

Really makes you want to bang your head against a wall when you hear that until recently a large portion of Network pilots weren’t part of a union.

[SOPS]

It’s funny with all of this …to reflect …because I’m old enough to do so. Before a certain year… the AFAP was strong enough to ensure that if a airline ( or a some other sort of smaller operator) was bought by the lager airline, the pilots from the smaller airline, generally joined with similar conditions. ( for example when Ansett bought Skywest . ) Then after that year occurred, the race to the bottom started…and it still has not stopped.

I’m so glad I’m out of it.

[VHOED191006]

Oh look, a new thread about pay and conditions...... oh wait, everyone is fighting each other again already. That didn't take long.
Welcome to PPRuNe. I don't know why it's like this either. So much for a united front.

[Jester64]

Genius.

And dont try to excuse anyone offering to come into work on a day off to save the day for $360/day. Those pilots are a big problem and my friends who work at NAA are sick of them.

The same friends who voted in the current EBA which includes the day-off payment bit in it?

[RealSatoshi]

And dont try to excuse anyone offering to come into work on a day off to save the day for $360/day. Those pilots are a big problem and my friends who work at NAA are sick of them.

Did your friends also tell you that whatever the 'Day-Off' payment is you so valiantly quote, is not a Day Off rate but technically a roster adjustment rate - My friends tell me they get the $'s (not enough, I know)...but they also get to keep their Day Off in Lieu.

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good mid-career rant...:E

[Ladloy]

Good luck to those involved.

[Beer Baron]

Belittling pilots who are in the process of standing up for their rights and asserting their value is stupid and destructive.

Network taking PIA is fantastic news for the whole industry. When the Qantas Group and other RPT operators realise they can no longer treat pilots like crap and get away with it, the benefits will flow to all.

Network guys are in the very fortunate position of not having a looming threat of their flying being sent to a cheaper subsidiary. You have no reason not to push hard and get an outcome that properly values your contribution to the Group. Good luck and I hope for the best.

[framer]

Good luck and well done on getting the ball rolling.
Imagine for a second that you are an executive at a large business…..your whole purpose is to minimise expenses and maximise profits. That’s what you get paid to do and that’s what you get judged on. If your large business is an Airline you need to minimise the expense of fuel ( try some smart hedging and comms to pilots about how much they order, create an app that shows pilots where they sit compared to their peers etc),you also need to minimise the expense of labour, ( try divide and conquer, a ‘wages policy’ , dragging out negotiations etc). Just do your best to minimise the cost, but at the end of the day if your hedging was off, or the Saudi’s restrict supply, that doesn’t mean you stop buying fuel, just that it was a tough day at the office. Same same with labour. The execs know exactly how much other industries( healthcare, education, IT etc) are increasing salaries by, they know it’s coming for them too and that it is just a cost of doing business. Just a tough day at the office for them.
Don’t feel too bad for them though, crack into it :)

[Bull_Shark]

Network flying RPT Perth to Darwin, Broome and soon Hobart and Adelaide is just the beginning.

Don’t for a second think that all of those shiny new A321 NEOs are going to mainline, dangle that carrot in front of the Network crews and they’ll be falling all over themselves to sign any deal.

Between the E190s at Alliance, A220s in QantasLink and A320s at Network, Qantas domestic is slowly being outsourced.

Slice and dice the master plan is coming together perfectly!

[soseg]

The same friends who voted in the current EBA which includes the day-off payment bit in it?
No. All newish starters from recent years 👍

[1234fly]

Network flying RPT Perth to Darwin, Broome and soon Hobart and Adelaide is just the beginning.

Don’t for a second think that all of those shiny new A321 NEOs are going to mainline, dangle that carrot in front of the Network crews and they’ll be falling all over themselves to sign any deal.

Between the E190s at Alliance, A220s in QantasLink and A320s at Network, Qantas domestic is slowly being outsourced.

Slice and dice the master plan is coming together perfectly!

I can assure you network crews won't be falling over for the 321s.. Crews call in sick for an overnight in the same state....don't kid yourself the planes and work aren't wanted by any of the pilots. The only people falling over for network to have these carrots dangled is management....crew just want more money and time off.

[morno]

Network flying RPT Perth to Darwin, Broome and soon Hobart and Adelaide is just the beginning.

Don’t for a second think that all of those shiny new A321 NEOs are going to mainline, dangle that carrot in front of the Network crews and they’ll be falling all over themselves to sign any deal.

Between the E190s at Alliance, A220s in QantasLink and A320s at Network, Qantas domestic is slowly being outsourced.

Slice and dice the master plan is coming together perfectly!

Keep dreaming mate. All the A321’s and a dare say a fair chunk of the A220’s will be going to mainline. Don’t believe it? When the company can’t get pilots to fly them at the subsidiaries, do you think they’re just going to accept their shiny new metal just sitting around parked up? It’s already close to happening, give it a bit longer and it’ll only get worse.

Good luck to the NWA crews with your PIA. It’s the beginning of the end for managements erosion of Pilot terms and conditions finally.

[Jester64]

No. All newish starters from recent years 👍

I see, the same friends that joined the airline, signing up to the terms and conditions of the current EBA….you get my point?

[Xam737]

Captains saving the day for $500 a day too! Flying a A320!
Break it down less 47 percent for tax bringing it to a total $265, work a 10 hour day (Fixed day off payment) that is $26.50 an hour take home!
Might as well get a job at the local cafe most likely paying cash with zero responsibility.

I didn't know this, but if Captains are coming in at a lousy $500/day, that's really ****ting in their own backyards, and nothing is going to save that kind of employee. Absolute morons!

[Lapon]

All the A321’s and a dare say a fair chunk of the A220’s will be going to mainline. Don’t believe it? When the company can’t get pilots to fly them at the subsidiaries, do you think they’re just going to accept their shiny new metal just sitting around parked up?

I hope you're right, at least the existing 29 A220s and 20 321s have already been 'allocated' to the intended AOCs.

Unfortunately I can't see the crewing issues even being a contributing factor to where any more orders go to.
I'd say DECs, a heap of cadets, and dare I say it - mainline pilots parachuted in on secondment (cough JQ and EFA?) will keep the subsidiaries going until the next global calamity.
I've read somewhere in the public domain about orders for the 220 being able to be pushed back if required.

But to the point of the thread goodluck to NAA. Remember plenty of these guys joined a sleepy little charter mob to happily ply the Pilbara on weekday returns and thier old EBA probably reflects thier needs of those days gone.
A good number of them didn't want any RPT flying anymore than they wanted to join the white hat brigade in the first place.
Remember that for anyone inclined to call someone a 'bin chicken'.

[dive and drive]

Keep dreaming mate. All the A321’s and a dare say a fair chunk of the A220’s will be going to mainline. Don’t believe it? When the company can’t get pilots to fly them at the subsidiaries, do you think they’re just going to accept their shiny new metal just sitting around parked up? It’s already close to happening, give it a bit longer and it’ll only get worse.



That's a type of wishful thinking too, just from a different perspective.
People create in their mind the narrative that best suites their situation, but the reality is that only time will tell.

Best of luck to the Network pilots, I really hope you succeed and you show to the rest of the Qantas group how to put up a fight.

[slice]

And Virgin. With negotiations about to get underway, and no doubt a sh1t sandwich being offered initially by Bain, resolute PIA will be a requirement for any future restoration of previous salary and conditions.

[PoppaJo]

And Virgin. With negotiations about to get underway, and no doubt a sh1t sandwich being offered initially by Bain, resolute PIA will be a requirement for any future restoration of previous salary and conditions.
You cannot cave in, you need to educate the entire pilot body on how critical it is, for the current and future ranks, to get that deal done right.

I have my doubts that your group will fight for the future, considering behaviour I’ve seen in other agreements recently, but this would be the most important agreement for the VA Group since the place started. Huge ramifications for the future of that pilot group if a turkey is voted in. Do not cave in for a quick dollar like a few others have done.

Your negotiations should be starting at the old base salary reinstated. If the company doesn’t even want to adhere to that, well then negotiations simply will not continue. Push bloody hard, and don’t forget, the old base salary is just the bread crumbs, much more to be pushed after that bare minimum. I’ll be supporting from the sidelines.

[Lookleft]

Best of luck to the Network pilots, I really hope you succeed and you show to the rest of the Qantas group how to put up a fight.

Interested to know what the PIA actually involves. From what i have read so far it just appears to be a vote for taking PIA. Best of luck indeed but I can't see whether its a knife fight or a jelly wrestle.

[soseg]

Keep dreaming mate. All the A321’s and a dare say a fair chunk of the A220’s will be going to mainline. Don’t believe it? When the company can’t get pilots to fly them at the subsidiaries, do you think they’re just going to accept their shiny new metal just sitting around parked up? It’s already close to happening, give it a bit longer and it’ll only get worse.

Good luck to the NWA crews with your PIA. It’s the beginning of the end for managements erosion of Pilot terms and conditions finally.

Wish I shared your optimism. Yeah, they’re struggling to crew the a220s and I am sure you’ve heard the same rumours on the line that I have. But getting that fleet on the QF AOC would be the biggest win in our careers.

I’ll believe it when it comes to fruition.

[soseg]

I see, the same friends that joined the airline, signing up to the terms and conditions of the current EBA….you get my point?

An upgrade from their previous jobs. However, as far as I know, these guys don’t answer their phones for that pitiful call out. They’re not hours chasing for pennies. And were all AFAP members the day they joined.

My jab is at the expense of the scabs who are happy to come in for that ridiculous call out fee and those that only recently joined a union.

Id love to know how many pilots there as a percentage are union members and which morons didn’t vote in favour of PIA. It was 3% wasn’t it? Management stooges? Aren’t the votes anonymous?

[Jester64]

An upgrade from their previous jobs. However, as far as I know, these guys don’t answer their phones for that pitiful call out. They’re not hours chasing for pennies. And were all AFAP members the day they joined.

My jab is at the expense of the scabs who are happy to come in for that ridiculous call out fee and those that only recently joined a union.

Id love to know how many pilots there as a percentage are union members and which morons didn’t vote in favour of PIA. It was 3% wasn’t it? Management stooges? Aren’t the votes anonymous?so they join Network on a sub-par and seriously eroded EBA in order to upgrade from their previous jobs…lol don’t you think it’s a bitch rich to complain and bitch about your own colleagues who are trying to earn an extra buck (whilst not yet in PIA) and under a clause in an EBA that was voted in by the network pilots, and in an EBA that was accepted by all who decide to join? I’d understand the resentment if working on a day off was collectively decided against as part of PIA, but it’s not.

[aussieflyboy]

You can whinge and carry on about Pilots joining and accepting the Network EA all you want but if they want to live in Perth what other options do they have?

Many don’t meet the puppy patting requirements of Coward street and the rest of the companies based in Perth are less secure jobs. Watch the Qantas 737 Pilots scrabble across to Network when they start downsizing the Perth Maggot base. Plenty of Jetstar and NJS Pilots both were on better conditions and both scrabbled across when faced with unemployment or East Coast relocation.

The best thing we can all do is throw our full support behind the NA Pilots.

[Jester64]

Not complaining here about people accepting NWK conditions just to live in Perth. I just find it ridiculous one NWK pilot bitching about another when in they too choose (for whatever the personal reasons are) to come into work and fly day in day out for a ****ty salary, day off or not. What a toxic place to be.

[CaptainInsaneO]

I've been told its best for all Australian pilots to focus on increasing mainline salaries, even if you arent a mainline pilot, as it will eventually pull up everyones salary.

[cloudsurfng]

You can whinge and carry on about Pilots joining and accepting the Network EA all you want but if they want to live in Perth what other options do they have?

Many don’t meet the puppy patting requirements of Coward street and the rest of the companies based in Perth are less secure jobs. Watch the Qantas 737 Pilots scrabble across to Network when they start downsizing the Perth Maggot base. Plenty of Jetstar and NJS Pilots both were on better conditions and both scrabbled across when faced with unemployment or East Coast relocation.

The best thing we can all do is throw our full support behind the NA Pilots.


hang on, aren’t you the biggest user of ‘bin chicken’ on this website?

you’re seriously deluded that’s for sure. No 737 pilots will be scrambling to network. QF won’t close a pilot base, OR force people to leave. It costs them too much. More likely they will let the base shrink in size as people leave the fleet.

seriously, you have no idea about anything.

[MikeHatter732]

I've been told its best for all Australian pilots to focus on increasing mainline salaries, even if you arent a mainline pilot, as it will eventually pull up everyones salary.
And then be sure to call everyone in every other subsidiary a bin chicken, even though you voted a B scale into effect to throw new hires under the bus.

[onezeroonethree]

And then be sure to call everyone in every other subsidiary a bin chicken, even though you voted a B scale into effect to throw new hires under the bus.

Mainline SOs on a B or C scale, whatever you want to call it are paid more than Netlink FOs.

[smiffysarmy]

Who is pushing for PIA? I bet it’s not AIPA

[KAPAC]

Someone trying to improve their future then I’m not interested in their past they have my support . Good luck to them .

[framer]

Someone trying to improve their future then I’m not interested in their past they have my support . Good luck to them .
What a wise statement.

[No upgrade]

Mainline SOs on a B or C scale, whatever you want to call it are paid more than Netlink FOs.

… and agree to my new colleagues getting 25% less pay to do my same job. Nice.

At least mainline pilots are consistent over the last two decades. The root cause of gifting QF the JQ, JC, NJS, NWK pilot pay scales to the Australian pilot profession. Never opposed the opportunity to sign off on a short sighted, self indulgent 3% payrise or cash bonus token.

Now they are bewildered why their group is shrinking, and preaching to pilots over a situation that they themselves created for us all. Pathetic.

[onezeroonethree]

… and agree to my new colleagues getting 25% less pay to do my same job. Nice.

At least mainline pilots are consistent over the last two decades. The root cause of gifting QF the JQ, JC, NJS, NWK pilot pay scales to the Australian pilot profession. Never opposed the opportunity to sign off on a short sighted, self indulgent 3% payrise or cash bonus token.

Now they are bewildered why their group is shrinking, and preaching to pilots over a situation that they themselves created for us all. Pathetic.

Read over previous posts in the QF recruitment thread. This has been answered. The LH EBA was signed just as covid hit. They secured a new fleet that was blatantly threatened to be given to another new entity. With covid on the horizon in March 2020 which is when I believe the vote went through then I'd say they did the right thing as one rumour circulating was that AJ demanded to Tino to pull the EBA off them when Covid was on the horizon and lower the conditions further. Word has he refused and that's why he was asked to leave.

And before anyone shoots this down then I'd love to be quoted how many other big wigs at the top in Sydney left the company in 2020 to "save the company money" etc.

[RealSatoshi]

...they did the right thing as one rumour circulating was that AJ demanded to Tino to pull the EBA off them when Covid was on the horizon and lower the conditions further...

I'll just leave this here from another thread...

Let's be absolutely CLEAR - Any organisation that initiates a $3.2 billion project and states that the business case for such a project is anchored on a handful of junior employees taking a 17% Pay Cut, is either financially illiterate or most probably opportunistically Lying-Through-Their-Teeth :}

Imagine Christine Kilpatrick (Royal Melbourne Hospital CEO), telling her Radiographers that she will only buy the latest state-of-the-art INUMAC MRI Scanner if junior nurses agreed to a 17% Pay Cut...

Disgusting - Yes :mad:

I've been told its best for all Australian pilots to focus on increasing mainline salaries, even if you arent a mainline pilot, as it will eventually pull up everyones salary.

Quite the opposite - you need a strong salary 'push' from below (subsidiaries et al), in order to put a higher floor under mainline salaries and therefore limit the efficiency of farming out work to 'cheaper' entities.

Many will HATE this statement, but the best thing Aussie pilots can do, is to pool their resources into one union so as to present as a solid front during negotiation time - the Americans do this very effectively. It is more difficult for QF IR to threaten (yes, we live in the stone ages) any entity with the scope of farming out their work to another, when the same union represents the other and therefore can put their foot in it.

From what has been said and written...such a shift has started with the reported exponential growth of AFAP (love them or hate them) membership at NAA, this to the detriment of other unions :ouch:

Good luck to all the guys and girls at NAA.

[Beer Baron]

… and agree to my new colleagues getting 25% less pay to do my same job. Nice.

At least mainline pilots are consistent over the last two decades. The root cause of gifting QF the JQ, JC, NJS, NWK pilot pay scales to the Australian pilot profession. Never opposed the opportunity to sign off on a short sighted, self indulgent 3% payrise or cash bonus token.

Now they are bewildered why their group is shrinking, and preaching to pilots over a situation that they themselves created for us all. Pathetic.
What bizarre and incoherent statement.
So is mainline shrinking because they spent 20 years taking “self indulgent” pay rises and bonuses or is it shrinking because they agreed to a 25% pay cut for new S/O’s?

And what exactly can an employee group do to stop their employer buying a competitor and turning it into a subsidiary?

Mainline pilots are the highest paid in the Oz airline industry, that is why Qantas is perpetually trying to diminish or circumvent their contract. They are certainly not at fault for the poor conditions in other carriers and they have no ability to improve them. That job falls to the pilots at those entities, and thankfully it looks like the Network pilots are trying to do just that.

[The Love Doctor]

That job falls to the pilots at those entities, and thankfully it looks like the Network pilots are trying to do just that.

Network pilots should keep doing PIA until their pay and conditions exceed mainline given the A320 and 737 are practically the same size. Go hard guys/girls!

[No upgrade]

​​​​​​​And what exactly can an employee group do to stop their employer buying a competitor and turning it into a subsidiary?

Never sign off without scope clauses.

​​​​​​​Mainline pilots are certainly not at fault for the poor conditions in other carriers and they have no ability to improve them. That job falls to the pilots at those entities

Totally their fault. Those entities would not exist if they had some spine, and thought less about a 3% payrise. Pathetic.

[soseg]

I'll just leave this here from another thread...





Quite the opposite - you need a strong salary 'push' from below (subsidiaries et al), in order to put a higher floor under mainline salaries and therefore limit the efficiency of farming out work to 'cheaper' entities.

Pretty sure that bloke was being sarcastic.

[Slippery_Pete]

Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

If NA pilots agree to anything other than an immediate 70-100% pay increase, they’re pretty much condemning their company to fail. Even with a 50% pay rise, there’s no motivation to stay. The place will be gutted by other operators and they’ll be cancelling every second sector.

That’s exactly what has happened at NJS, and now they have no-one to operate all their shiny new jets. Gissing and Safe were probably so proud of what they achieved at NJS with their “Strategic Imperatives” BS - but all it did was condemn NJS to certain failure and will require them to be absorbed into mainline.

The slice and dice/play everyone against each other approach has worked for the last 35 years. But now airlines in Australia need to wake up quick smart to the fact that you either pay and treat your pilots well, or you watch them leave and your company fails.

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave. Then mainline will realise they can’t play everyone against each other, and the network pilots get absorbed into mainline with an 01 Jan 2024 seniority number and operate under the SH EBA.

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house. Probably they’ll have no option but to do the same with the cluster that has become of NJS. Maybe Network will even get absorbed. Alliance massively struggling to retain pilots more than 12 months too. The industrial tactics they’re playing don’t work when there’s a massive demand for pilots. Look at what’s happening in the US majors - the game changed from playing pilots against each other for years, to suddenly each CEO coming out and offering bigger packages than the last to try and keep bums on seats. The same thing is going to happen here.

And if you’re in Network or NJS and on the hold file - you’re never getting a mainline start date - because your current employer is desperately short of pilots as everyone else leaves. You won’t be released. You’d be better off resigning and then calling Q recruitment to change your application to an external. Otherwise, you can spend the next 40 years doing Pilbara returns on your day off for $350.

[Beer Baron]

Never sign off without scope clauses.

Totally their fault. Those entities would not exist if they had some spine, and thought less about a 3% payrise. Pathetic.
Perhaps you should be called ’No Idea’
Qantas pilots took PIA to protect their flying an over a decade ago and they were shut down by the Federal Government.
As for “not signing off…” well you don’t sign-off on a Workplace Determination, it is enforced on you by the FWC, as ours was.

[No upgrade]

Signing off on new EBAs for the last 20 years, gifting the company new entities and B scales for a 3% payrise and a cash bonus is NOT enforced upon you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

[walesregent]

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave.



That’s happening at more than a trickle. There might be a few gaping holes in the training department quite soon.

[aussieflyboy]

Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

If NA pilots agree to anything other than an immediate 70-100% pay increase, they’re pretty much condemning their company to fail. Even with a 50% pay rise, there’s no motivation to stay. The place will be gutted by other operators and they’ll be cancelling every second sector.

That’s exactly what has happened at NJS, and now they have no-one to operate all their shiny new jets. Gissing and Safe were probably so proud of what they achieved at NJS with their “Strategic Imperatives” BS - but all it did was condemn NJS to certain failure and will require them to be absorbed into mainline.

The slice and dice/play everyone against each other approach has worked for the last 35 years. But now airlines in Australia need to wake up quick smart to the fact that you either pay and treat your pilots well, or you watch them leave and your company fails.

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave. Then mainline will realise they can’t play everyone against each other, and the network pilots get absorbed into mainline with an 01 Jan 2024 seniority number and operate under the SH EBA.

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house. Probably they’ll have no option but to do the same with the cluster that has become of NJS. Maybe Network will even get absorbed. Alliance massively struggling to retain pilots more than 12 months too. The industrial tactics they’re playing don’t work when there’s a massive demand for pilots. Look at what’s happening in the US majors - the game changed from playing pilots against each other for years, to suddenly each CEO coming out and offering bigger packages than the last to try and keep bums on seats. The same thing is going to happen here.

And if you’re in Network or NJS and on the hold file - you’re never getting a mainline start date - because your current employer is desperately short of pilots as everyone else leaves. You won’t be released. You’d be better off resigning and then calling Q recruitment to change your application to an external. Otherwise, you can spend the next 40 years doing Pilbara returns on your day off for $350.

QF management have openly said there’s no staff shortage at NJS. They’ve got 150+ pilots to crew 16 (and reducing) aircraft and will have even more pilots (internationals) to crew only 7 aircraft next year. NA can be crewed by cadets easily if they get short enough. There’s more then enough people who want to live in Perth to keep that company going.

You’ll often hear crew carry on about Pilot shortages stating ‘they’ll have to offer a bonus soon or they won’t have any crew’. This is complete rubbish, you had your chance to vote down your agreement and you voted it up. Tough luck sunshine. Hopefully NA don’t make the same mistake.

[morno]

Signing off on new EBAs for the last 20 years, gifting the company new entities and B scales for a 3% payrise and a cash bonus is NOT enforced upon you. Don’t pretend otherwise.

What cash bonus exactly? :hmm:

And are you that stupid that you don’t know what happened when mainline pilots got locked out when they DID try and stand up for themselves?

[SandyPalms]

He's just a troll. He must be. Either that, or he's just an idiot. Most in this country understand what happened. He just likes throwing rocks. Ignore him. We are all better than that.

And to the point of this thread, go for is guys. I wish you the best of luck. Show the pricks you mean business.

[Makiko]

The new B Scale SO at ML is 40% drop in max hourly rate (on Airbus only)

Definitely Network deserve substantial pay increase

How many at Network on ML hold file you reckon ?

[No upgrade]

And are you that stupid that you don’t know what happened when mainline pilots got locked out when they DID try and stand up for themselves?

Standing up for yourselves with stupid red ties and making silly PAs you are to be trusted? Pathetic and embarrassing. And stupid.

[airdualbleedfault]

hang on, aren’t you the biggest user of ‘bin chicken’ on this website?

you’re seriously deluded that’s for sure. No 737 pilots will be scrambling to network. QF won’t close a pilot base, OR force people to leave. It costs them too much. More likely they will let the base shrink in size as people leave the fleet.

seriously, you have no idea about anything.

Mate I reckon it is you that has no idea. The money Qantas would save on salaries in the first year would pay for every mainline pilot to move to the east coast, and then some. Not saying that they would do it but you're seriously deluded if you think the moving costs would stop them

[Saintly]

Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

If NA pilots agree to anything other than an immediate 70-100% pay increase, they’re pretty much condemning their company to fail. Even with a 50% pay rise, there’s no motivation to stay. The place will be gutted by other operators and they’ll be cancelling every second sector.

That’s exactly what has happened at NJS, and now they have no-one to operate all their shiny new jets. Gissing and Safe were probably so proud of what they achieved at NJS with their “Strategic Imperatives” BS - but all it did was condemn NJS to certain failure and will require them to be absorbed into mainline.

The slice and dice/play everyone against each other approach has worked for the last 35 years. But now airlines in Australia need to wake up quick smart to the fact that you either pay and treat your pilots well, or you watch them leave and your company fails.

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave. Then mainline will realise they can’t play everyone against each other, and the network pilots get absorbed into mainline with an 01 Jan 2024 seniority number and operate under the SH EBA.

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house. Probably they’ll have no option but to do the same with the cluster that has become of NJS. Maybe Network will even get absorbed. Alliance massively struggling to retain pilots more than 12 months too. The industrial tactics they’re playing don’t work when there’s a massive demand for pilots. Look at what’s happening in the US majors - the game changed from playing pilots against each other for years, to suddenly each CEO coming out and offering bigger packages than the last to try and keep bums on seats. The same thing is going to happen here.

And if you’re in Network or NJS and on the hold file - you’re never getting a mainline start date - because your current employer is desperately short of pilots as everyone else leaves. You won’t be released. You’d be better off resigning and then calling Q recruitment to change your application to an external. Otherwise, you can spend the next 40 years doing Pilbara returns on your day off for $350.

JQ are doing the same, not keen on/holding their pilots back from going to QF. They seem to be scared. So you're example is bang on the money.

[theheadmaster]

Never sign off without scope clauses.



Totally their fault. Those entities would not exist if they had some spine, and thought less about a 3% payrise. Pathetic.

Unfortunately, there is that not-so-minor inconvenience of s172 and s253 of the Fair Work Act.

[soseg]

Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

If NA pilots agree to anything other than an immediate 70-100% pay increase, they’re pretty much condemning their company to fail. Even with a 50% pay rise, there’s no motivation to stay. The place will be gutted by other operators and they’ll be cancelling every second sector.

That’s exactly what has happened at NJS, and now they have no-one to operate all their shiny new jets. Gissing and Safe were probably so proud of what they achieved at NJS with their “Strategic Imperatives” BS - but all it did was condemn NJS to certain failure and will require them to be absorbed into mainline.

The slice and dice/play everyone against each other approach has worked for the last 35 years. But now airlines in Australia need to wake up quick smart to the fact that you either pay and treat your pilots well, or you watch them leave and your company fails.

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave. Then mainline will realise they can’t play everyone against each other, and the network pilots get absorbed into mainline with an 01 Jan 2024 seniority number and operate under the SH EBA.

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house. Probably they’ll have no option but to do the same with the cluster that has become of NJS. Maybe Network will even get absorbed. Alliance massively struggling to retain pilots more than 12 months too. The industrial tactics they’re playing don’t work when there’s a massive demand for pilots. Look at what’s happening in the US majors - the game changed from playing pilots against each other for years, to suddenly each CEO coming out and offering bigger packages than the last to try and keep bums on seats. The same thing is going to happen here.

And if you’re in Network or NJS and on the hold file - you’re never getting a mainline start date - because your current employer is desperately short of pilots as everyone else leaves. You won’t be released. You’d be better off resigning and then calling Q recruitment to change your application to an external. Otherwise, you can spend the next 40 years doing Pilbara returns on your day off for $350.

Firstly, mainline SH FOs don’t double what a Network Captain makes but you can be assured 737 FOs do earn more than Network Captains, and the majority of 737 Captains would be doubling the income of Network Captains.

As a guess I’ll say the average 737 FO last FY made top right corner 240-250 and the ones who chased got closer to 300.
Captains would be at a minimum in the high 300s if not low 400s. I am aware of 737 skippers who went north of 450.

The 737 is short on FOs. The company needs a way to incentivise people to want to fly it. They’ll offer them something. They’ll find some cheeky way to “get around” the company pay freeze, so expect these quoted numbers to rise in the next year.

You are right. Being an internal is a worse way to get to mainline. Better off quitting, going elsewhere and trying as an external.

I wish I shared your optimism about absorbing the subsidiaries. It’s what all the pilots at mainline would want and I can’t imagine anyone in a subsidiary would oppose it. It would be a big win for all.

[Lapon]

Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

:rolleyes: That doesn't really pass the BS test though does it?
If the table on the noose threat that Satoshi put up is to go by, a Network F100 Captain is on 175k BASE. The SH basic was quoted as 145k, but double would mean 350k for 70hrs a month.

Can't include allowances, bonuses, super etc etc unless NA captains get zero additional payments to thier base - which I doubt.

Everyone has heard of someone thats achieved a numerical possibility, but to elude to that as the norm while comparing one basic salary to another 'all in' pay is just BS.

[soseg]

QF management have openly said there’s no staff shortage at NJS. They’ve got 150+ pilots to crew 16 (and reducing) aircraft and will have even more pilots (internationals) to crew only 7 aircraft next year. NA can be crewed by cadets easily if they get short enough. There’s more then enough people who want to live in Perth to keep that company going.

You’ll often hear crew carry on about Pilot shortages stating ‘they’ll have to offer a bonus soon or they won’t have any crew’. This is complete rubbish, you had your chance to vote down your agreement and you voted it up. Tough luck sunshine. Hopefully NA don’t make the same mistake.

Not true. They have admitted they are struggling to crew it.
Goodluck to the cadets. A recent company webinar had management admit that many aren’t getting QLink start dates on the dash due to poor sim performance. Goodluck getting into an F100 or A320.

[soseg]

You can whinge and carry on about Pilots joining and accepting the Network EA all you want but if they want to live in Perth what other options do they have?

Many don’t meet the puppy patting requirements of Coward street and the rest of the companies based in Perth are less secure jobs. Watch the Qantas 737 Pilots scrabble across to Network when they start downsizing the Perth Maggot base. Plenty of Jetstar and NJS Pilots both were on better conditions and both scrabbled across when faced with unemployment or East Coast relocation.

The best thing we can all do is throw our full support behind the NA Pilots.

Perth has been announced as one of the first two bases along with Sydney to get the XLR.

If what you are saying is true, plus what someone else posted about the cost of relocating everyone to the east coast not being a factor then why haven’t they done that to Adelaide?

They are down sizing the base by a third. No push out. Too costly.

Brisbane hasn’t had a 787 route since pre Covid. There’s still a base and currently no foreseeable route on the 787 out of Brisbane. Every pilot there gets paid 5.5 hrs minimum pay to pax across to another city to operate, and then 5.5 hrs to pax back. That’s 11 hours extra per pattern for multiple years. Even if it’s a one hour hop to Sydney and Back. Why not close the base and re open it once they do have Dreamliners based in Brisbane? Too costly.

Going back to Adelaide. You’d think many of those FOs there would be putting their hand up for secondment to NJS A220. They’re not. Even an a220 command is a pay cut. They won’t sell themselves short. They’ll either commute once they get another base in LH or move cities.

[HongKongflu]

It's really encouraging to see the Pilots of the Qantas / Network group finally taking this greedy & opportunistic company on. You have been getting ripped off for years. It will never be QF domestic or even pay as well but paying Pilots less than HALF what a domestic Pilot gets is really unfair & pretty sleazy. It's long overdue to see the hardworking professionals of this operation get proper pay and conditions. Qantas have been taking the piss here for many years & easily getting away with it. Now that they have solid union membership numbers they have a chance. Many of us at QF mainline support you & sincerely hope to see a fair deal for you all. Best wishes to the flight attendants who are about to go on strike too. Surly QF can take a little of the $2,500,000,000 profit you made this year and reward the staff who helped to make that happen, getting out of bed at 0330 to fly essential workers to the Pilbara for less than award wage.

[b787q300]

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house.

Is this actually happening or just a pipe dream?

[Lapon]

Is this actually happening or just a pipe dream?

Pipedream.

First question has to be why would they.
If the answer even starts along the lines of 'because of crewing' then Id counter with saying there are probably more JC not trying to go to mainline than who are.

Nor do I dont think many JC crew are interested in living in Oz. Most logically I suspect the scheduling of trans tas flights with JC crew is alot easier wrt to the early morning departures and rest requirements with NZ based crew (suspect - I have nfi of either operators FRMS or eba requirements in that regard).

The only iota of truth could be that the 737 ceases the tasman flying and the 321s don't see enough orders beyond the intial 20 to operate the Tasman (220s anyone?)
That might ultimately negate the need for JC - who will then be offered redeployment within the group - as we saw with Jetstar regional.

Any of that would be 2030+ stuff and this is Qantas were talking about so there is no way they would have thought that far ahead.

[soseg]

JC intregration rumour has been floating for close to a year now.

FO turn over is extremely high. They're paid peanuts compared to Mainline pilots.
I have heard it's 1 year for a 737 command at JC versus 18 at mainline.

Too good of a rumour to be true.

[HongKongflu]

Network is not QF domestic or mainline, but most reasonable people can agree, Network Pilots have been getting ripped off for a long time & the company has been laughing all the way to the bank.
They do a similar job for less than half the pay of a QF domestic Pilot. Now that their EBA is finally due I wish them the very best in striking the best deal possible, ultimately this is advantageous to all of us. Our short haul EBA is up soon and we will be asking for support, just as Sunnies and QLink are, long haul is not far off either and you can bet your nuts they are coming for you too!!!. I for one consider you my colleagues & I wish you the best in taking on these greedy opportunists. I hope you get a slice of the $2,5000,000 profit they just made, partly from your contribution to the group. Getting out of bed at 0330 to fly a Qantas group jet to the Pilbara for less than the award wage is not fair. A 3%pa raise is spitting in your face!

[framer]

I for one consider you my colleagues & I wish you the best in taking on these greedy opportunists.
That there is a sentence that will make Airline execs shiver.
Its a shame that for various reasons ( not to be discussed on this thread for fear of creating division) we have more than one Union going into 2024.
Over the next wee while if we can just take a deep breath and 95% of us echo the above sentiment, we will all be much better off. The past is the past, the best way you can stick it to the man is to develop some empathy for all pilots, not just your immediate colleagues.

[framer]

Australian pilots have become used to management and IR techniques that create continual downward pressure on terms and conditions within the Industry. Many would not have been adults let alone commercial pilots when ATPL’s carried the advantage of scarcity. I’d just like to point out that the very same systems that drive relentlessly towards labour efficiency can also accommodate, and allow for, changes in the opposite direction. The USA is currently a good example of exactly that and the following article (which is less than a week old) might help shift paradigms around what is possible for pilot groups in Australia over the next few years.
Pilots at American rejected an offer (https://apnews.com/article/business-texas-76c06e4bfd39768456f917a2d5ba6dfc) last November. They reached another agreement in late July, which was renegotiated again after United Airlines (https://apnews.com/article/united-airlines-pilots-pay-raise-d1cf2dcd38d0d267bf8cfd8c652c6750)approved a tentative deal with its pilots. Pilots at Delta Air Lines (https://apnews.com/article/delta-pilots-pay-raise-labor-79eeb155c495d5c50522d0eb29342e03) won big pay raises earlier this year.

Pilots at Southwest Airlines are still in negotiations.

Wage rates for American pilots will rise at least 41% and perhaps more if United pilots ratify their agreement, according to a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association. David Koenig - AP (https://apnews.com/) - Mon Aug 21, 5:13PM CDT

Now is the time for a ‘step change’ but the window won’t be open for ever. The longer a pilot group let’s negotiations drag out before playing hard-ball the greater the risk of the window closing due to war, pandemic, stock market collapse etc etc
There are many agreements coming up for negotiation over the next 18 months. ‘Hard and fast’ should be the Unions new motto.

[directsosij]

Most economists are predicting a recession in the coming 12-18 months so get ready for the next pay freeze!

[framer]

Most economists are predicting a recession in the coming 12-18 months so get ready for the next pay freeze!
Hard and fast Sir, Hard and fast.

[A320 Flyer]

QF SH will be there by the end of the year…..

[josephfeatherweight]

QF SH will be there by the end of the year…..
I'll believe that when I see it - but I hope you're right!

[Flava Saver]

So was it true VH flew to Perth today to speak to the Network drivers?

[noclue]

Network drivers or mining bosses to assure them that their FIFO staff won’t be impacted by any impending PIA.

[dejapoo]

What's with network min fuel??? 2.5FOD in an A320 doesn't excite me... I don't feel that's sticking it to the man

[cLeArIcE]

What's with network min fuel??? 2.5FOD in an A320 doesn't excite me... I don't feel that's sticking it to the man
Haha what? Burger that. 3.5 min thanks

[gordonfvckingramsay]

So was it true VH flew to Perth today to speak to the Network drivers?

Maybe she should have flown to Perth to listen to them instead.

[1234fly]

Would be inteeating if the mainline 737 drivers come down with a cold and can't cover when/if network go on PIA. Now that would be some commradery and unfortunate timing for QF.

[aussieflyboy]

They’ll just cover any flying using Alliance.

[1234fly]

They’ll just cover any flying using Alliance.
doubt they can cover all the charter flights across 320 and f100.

[SIDS N STARS]

They’ll just cover any flying using Alliance.


Wheres the unity in that? ...... i'll see myself out :)

[RealSatoshi]

doubt they can cover all the charter flights across 320 and f100.
By the look of things there is quite a lot that they can't cover :E

First Officer - Airline Pilot (Alliance Airlines) (https://www.seek.com.au/job/69741296?type=standout#sol=202afe8b3851d40e0f0cb80f483e48893 9d201da)
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x373/screenshot_2023_09_08_at_10_10_19_0937f4bd6a1f12d0c81710a83a 9b0d10ae8df3d5.png

[blubak]

Maybe she should have flown to Perth to listen to them instead.
Definitely should listen but the fact shes gone there to me means she is pretty worried & right now PIA is not what she needs considering how shes just told us how she needs to start getting the trust of the customers back.
Looks like the noose could be tightening & she needs to find a quick solution.

[davidclarke]

Definitely should listen but the fact shes gone there to me means she is pretty worried & right now PIA is not what she needs considering how shes just told us how she needs to start getting the trust of the customers back.
Looks like the noose could be tightening & she needs to find a quick solution.

There’s an easy solution. If she was worried she would agree to their log of claims. Plain and simple. She is not worried. She is trying to play nice guy make the pilots second guess themselves.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

There’s an easy solution. If she was worried she would agree to their log of claims. Plain and simple. She is not worried. She is trying to play nice guy make the pilots second guess themselves.

Can we start calling the log of claims something wanky like……I dunno, “strategic imperatives”?

[RealSatoshi]

Can we start calling the log of claims something wanky like……I dunno, “strategic imperatives”?
FCCAP* - Flight Crew Compensation Alignment Plan :E

(*) Read as one word

[HongKongflu]

Guys have gotta stop working on RDO's & "helping" them out with duty changes for a token payment, if you want to get their attention. Conditions will NEVER change as long as they keep crewing flights.

[The Love Doctor]

Guys have gotta stop working on RDO's & "helping" them out with duty changes for a token payment, if you want to get their attention. Conditions will NEVER change as long as they keep crewing flights.
This is entirely accurate

[Skippy69]

Kudos to the Network drivers, I hope the PIA happens and they get what's deserved. I heard in the realm of a 30 percent payrise to be in line with Mainline. Now that's action- here here!


Was told that the Alliance big wigs have rejected any pay rises to the east coasters citing that the recent CPI increase was a wage, "increase", I wonder if this will be in their playbook.

[v1bang]

So was it true VH flew to Perth today to speak to the Network drivers?

Heard nothing of the like - that was a media ploy to possibly calm twiggy and Gina down.

[stevieboy330]

I'm pretty sure Vanessa could't give two ****s about Network, same as Alan, that's how it came to this in the first place. Only PIA will get them to take notice at this point, best of luck guys.

[Buttscratcher]

Though I'm sure Vanessa would care about her portion of WA being shut down, disrupted and all the attention it would thus bring.

[BuzzBox]

Though I'm sure Vanessa would care about her portion of WA being shut down, disrupted and all the attention it would thus bring.

Absolutely. The resources sector and the WA Government will be screaming blue murder if services to the mine sites are disrupted. I'm sure that's an additional headache she doesn't need right now, especially after this morning's High Court ruling.

[stevieboy330]

Though I'm sure Vanessa would care about her portion of WA being shut down, disrupted and all the attention it would thus bring.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure she will come to care about it once they realise a very significant revenue stream is at stake, but up until now QF management have had a very detached and condescending relationship with Network Aviation, happy to take the massive amount of money it generates whilst being quite comfortable to treat it's staff with in WA contempt & indifference.

[Buttscratcher]

Yes Buzz, Q management are in a very unfavourable and precarious position.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-13/high-court-rules-in-qantas-twu-battle-over-ground-crew-staff/102848684

[KAPAC]

Sometimes things fall into place , timing is looking good .

[noclue]

Not in this fight but curious to know what stage things are at. Has the ballot for pia closed? And or has the approved pia started yet?

[MikeHatter732]

Not in this fight but curious to know what stage things are at. Has the ballot for pia closed? And or has the approved pia started yet?
Network, Eastern and Sunstate all had PIA ballots open a few days ago. They will run concurrently with each other and are open for another week and a bit.

[neville_nobody]

And strategically now is the time to strike. Management are fighting fires on all fronts the last they need is have the airline grounded as well. It may be the only time to actually have any leverage. Remember that is how management think too. They would take advantage of a favourable IR situation if they could.

[Busbitch]

Pilots at Network Aviation Perth should know that guys at Alliance (yes both FO's & Captains) flying the same plane on the same runs to the Pilbara are getting paid almost $40,000 a year more than you?
THAT'S YOUR MORTGAGE PAID FOR !!!!
The pay rates and retention bonus are readily available information. Your management are laughing at you in their offices right now ! In any other civilised country, that would be reason to strike!.

[walesregent]

Pilots at Network Aviation Perth should know that guys at Alliance (yes both FO's & Captains) flying the same plane on the same runs to the Pilbara are getting paid almost $40,000 a year more than you?
THAT'S YOUR MORTGAGE PAID FOR !!!!
The pay rates and retention bonus are readily available information. Your management are laughing at you in their offices right now ! In any other civilised country, that would be reason to strike!.

I believe management is talking about turning the heat up on pilots. Pretty bold bluff when their hand is a 7 of spades and a beer coaster.

[aussieflyboy]

I believe management is talking about turning the heat up on pilots. Pretty bold bluff when their hand is a 7 of spades and a beer coaster.

What are they threatening them with? Moving their work to Alliance? All the NA Pilots would get a payrise and improved conditions when they get employed by Alliance.

[toouterspace]

Park the jets team.

[Jester64]

Your management are laughing at you in their offices right now ! In any other civilised country, that would be reason to strike!.

Everyone’s having a laugh…high school PE teachers earn more than Network FOs, and that’s just the public system…

should have become a teacher and teach kids how to kick a soccer ball, have 80+ days of vacation per year, long weekends, 9-5, Xmas, Easter, new years you name it.

https://www.education.wa.edu.au/teacher-salaries

[Transition Layer]

Everyone’s having a laugh…high school PE teachers earn more than Network FOs, and that’s just the public system…

should have become a teacher and teach kids how to kick a soccer ball, have 80+ days of vacation per year, long weekends, 9-5, Xmas, Easter, new years you name it.

https://www.education.wa.edu.au/teacher-salaries

To be fair, those teachers did a four year university degree.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

What are they threatening them with? Moving their work to Alliance? All the NA Pilots would get a payrise and improved conditions when they get employed by Alliance.


I’d expect the IR “experts” will attempt to play on the premise that the company can’t afford to increase/improve anything due to the precarious position “we” are in financially (referring to the Gottliebsen article). This could just be the crisis they’ve been searching for, and thus the perfect self manufactured ace. I wonder how much goodwill they think is left out here and how much anyone cares if the company goes belly up.

[framer]

Well, the Chairman of the Group just wrote to staff ( did you get it?) and said “Since 2020, executive wages were frozen and annual bonuses weren’t paid, so this year’s remuneration is substantially higher than the past three, especially when you include the recovery program.

The Board members gave themselves, on average after taking out Sampson and some other new addition, a 20% pay increase this year. Would that bring you in line with Alliance or is the problem worse than that? I like to think all QF group employees would use that as a baseline in their upcoming negotiations.

[Jetsbest]

To be fair, those teachers did a four year university degree.

….& some might say that the effort/cost/ATAR/medical requirements for gaining an ATPL, & thus (maybe) employment as a pilot, are far more onerous than many other “degrees”.🤔

[shortshortz]

To be fair, those teachers did a four year university degree.
Pilots eh? Ones to always over look risk and the remuneration required to offset said risk.

[ScepticalOptomist]

To be fair, those teachers did a four year university degree.

Seriously TL? I mean no disrespect to the good hard working teachers in our society, we have many great teachers, and an equal number of totally ****e ones. A degree in teaching isn’t considered one of the tough ones.

Need to stop belittling the worth of our own - they’re worth more than a teacher salary - not because they’re better, or work harder, but because of the inherent risk in the profession. Day to day risk, career risks, medical risks etc.

[neville_nobody]

Not to mention the ongoing study with Sims/Line Checks/general accountability. Very few professions have that. As much as the education sector hate to admit it degrees don’t equate to higher salaries in this country. It’s a myth they have perpetuated for a while now but it is now becoming apparent the emperor has no clothes. People are leaving university to do trades due to the lack of career opportunity and money on offer plus just the cost/benefit of degrees has shifted. Federal Governments of both colours also refuse to add trades to the immigration program restricting labour supply. But they will always allow degree qualified people in and also airline pilots.

[walesregent]

I’d expect the IR “experts” will attempt to play on the premise that the company can’t afford to increase/improve anything due to the precarious position “we” are in financially (referring to the Gottliebsen article). This could just be the crisis they’ve been searching for, and thus the perfect self manufactured ace. I wonder how much goodwill they think is left out here and how much anyone cares if the company goes belly up.

It’s fortunate that staff and the public have not taken this much interest in a company’s finances for a very long time- someone is currently running a first class anti-Qantas PR campaign. Spin works if you’re dealing with an apathetic public. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. 🤞🏽

[ActiveLooker]

No, nobody “owns” a route but NAA was set up to service the resource sector primarily with charter ops for mining clients.

Perth Darwin is now a Netlink airbus.
Perth Broome same story.
Rumours of Adelaide and Hobart potentially going.

So tell me where does this stop? The company argues right aircraft right route. The bus and maggot are pretty damn similar. Then they argue that J class doesn’t sell anyway on these routes, when last year they increased Perth Hobart services as they wanted more J class on that route due to premium demand.
The Darwin and Broomes aren’t full. So you fill 140 economy seats out of 162 on the 737 or 140 economy on the a320 which I think has 180 total. What’s the difference? It’s the wages.

Mainline has the airbus 320 family on their EBA now. They could give a few of them to mainline right now instead of Network and keep them all economy to satisfy that lie about no demand for J class.

So why don’t they?

They claim the planes aren’t utilised much so they go to Network then literally, and I’m not making this up, five minutes later claim Network planes aren’t utilised enough between charters so that’s why they’ve gotten the ex-mainline RPTs.

Hundreds on hold with mainline. It’s the job almost everyone wants. It would sure help fix the lack of progression at mainline all thanks to management slowly carving everything up to poorly paid subsidiaries. Hell, it might even begin attracting people to SH if they see a stronger future there, instead people are turning it down happy to wait for an SO slot as there’s no glamour in SH.

So tell me where this is meant to end? Maybe when Netlink are running a320s between Melbourne and Sydney?
Those coming in for the 7 hours of log book time for a juicy Darwin return for $360 to save the day sure aren’t helping anyone.

Stop helping the company. Do the minimum and let them struggle. Then maybe they’ll really have no choice but to consider raising conditions when nobody answers their phone.

And no, not an entitlement just because 15 years ago I was still studying. I’ve had the older generation tell me over the years what it took to get the wins we all enjoy now especially on the LH EBA. I have thirty years left in this game as do my friends and colleagues. So excuse me for getting a little annoyed when all I’ve seen in my short time in the group is a continuous erosion of everything and expansion only in the subsidiaries.

Really makes you want to bang your head against a wall when you hear that until recently a large portion of Network pilots weren’t part of a union.

”The job everyone wants” You poor delusional little brat. You sit and throw stones and judge others for making career choices all whilst sitting in the RHS at an antiquated, inexperienced establishment. You are that guy that makes excuses for having the ugly girl friend when the truth is that you are too lazy to take matters into you own hand. I know numerous guys and gals that have joined Network and have far more heavy jet time than most of your colleagues at the White Rat. Perhaps it’s them that are taking the fight to the business.

[Australopithecus]

Well now there’s the kind of logic that I was hoping to find here. /s

[CaptCloudbuster]

I know numerous guys and gals that have joined Network and have far more heavy jet time than most of your colleagues at the White Rat.

That’s reassuring for if / when Qantas Academy Grads are placed in the RHS. It’s been done worldwide already with no problems at all we’re told.:ok:

[stevieboy330]

I know of at least a Dozen Cathay / Dragon guys with well over 10,000hrs that went to Network when they were dumped by Cathay. Good operators with much needed experience for that operation, now getting flogged and paid terribly, I can't imagine they will stick around unless Qantas do something serious about this upcoming EBA. Same goes for a lot of the young guys in the left seat, especially in this market.

[Jester64]

I know of at least a Dozen Cathay / Dragon guys with well over 10,000hrs that went to Network when they were dumped by Cathay. Good operators with much needed experience for that operation, now getting flogged and paid terribly, I can't imagine they will stick around unless Qantas do something serious about this upcoming EBA. Same goes for a lot of the young guys in the left seat, especially in this market.

They aren’t sticking around.

[ScepticalOptomist]

”The job everyone wants” You poor delusional little brat.

Yeah, but are they wrong?

No one grows up wanting to join a low paid subsidiary.

[Transition Layer]

Seriously TL? I mean no disrespect to the good hard working teachers in our society, we have many great teachers, and an equal number of totally ****e ones. A degree in teaching isn’t considered one of the tough ones.

Need to stop belittling the worth of our own - they’re worth more than a teacher salary - not because they’re better, or work harder, but because of the inherent risk in the profession. Day to day risk, career risks, medical risks etc.

My comment was just an attempt to add another dot point to the argument making a comparison with the teaching profession. We all know what is involved in getting the required qualifications to join an airline, and you clearly outline the risks. You’re preaching to the converted here but without all the facts you’re just in an echo chamber.

I’d be the first to advocate for Network pilots to get a massive payrise. With a higher cost base, it may potentially result in less farming out of flying from Mainline, thereby improving my own progression and job security. We’ve seen unprecedented growth at Network over the last 5 years while QF SH is left to wither on the vine.

[Lapon]

With a higher cost base, it may potentially result in less farming out of flying from Mainline, thereby improving my own progression and job security

Thats the attitude problem with many Qantas (mainline) pilots. Its everyone else's responsibility.

The truth is that you (or your predecessors) should have had scope clauses 20+ years ago. Jetstar was was an early red flag, but I suspect plenty happily took a secondment across to get that off the ground.

Either way the ship has sailed. Vote with your feet or fight for change, but don't leave it for the likes of network crews to solve your problems.

I don't work for either mob, but one pprune thread is saying new joiners at QF are being bullied into 737 roles on joining, and other threads are full of moaning about a lack.of progression on the 737. Something between those two stories fails to add up to this outsider.

[Jack D. Ripper]

QF pilots (AIPA) stood by and watched as the domestic airlines ripped up agreements in 1989.

They failed to act when NJS (now A220 operation) brought in the 146 and undercut Ansett pilots

Then there was Impulse, which became Jetstar….. Alliance etc. etc

‘This mob make Neville Chamberlain look like a fascist.

[SandyPalms]

Lapon. With regard to the other thread, No body is being bullied into 737 roles. Recruits may be asked if they will go straight to the 737. If they say yes, they will most likely get an earlier start date. If they say no, that’s also fine, but will most likely have to wait a bit longer to join. The reason for the statement being added into the recruitment offer is that many people said they would go to the 737, then a joining day, decided that the 737 was now, not really for them. They played the system. Now QF have a statement to stop it from happening again. So those with that statement in their offer, have said yes to the 737 option. Tough luck if they too were trying to game the system.

apologies for hijacking the thread

[Transition Layer]

Thats the attitude problem with many Qantas (mainline) pilots. Its everyone else's responsibility.

The truth is that you (or your predecessors) should have had scope clauses 20+ years ago. Jetstar was was an early red flag, but I suspect plenty happily took a secondment across to get that off the ground.

Either way the ship has sailed. Vote with your feet or fight for change, but don't leave it for the likes of network crews to solve your problems.

I don't work for either mob, but one pprune thread is saying new joiners at QF are being bullied into 737 roles on joining, and other threads are full of moaning about a lack.of progression on the 737. Something between those two stories fails to add up to this outsider.

OK sure mate, it’s my fault that Network pilots are paid below market rates :hmm:

It’s got nothing at all to do with the fact that Qantas has adopted one of the most aggressive IR wars against its workforce that this country has ever seen.

[ActiveLooker]

OK sure mate, it’s my fault that Network pilots are paid below market rates :hmm:

It’s got nothing at all to do with the fact that Qantas has adopted one of the most aggressive IR wars against its workforce that this country has ever seen.

Qantas pilots have always been their own problem. Love to take an elitist attitude and only care about themselves right up until they are threatened, then it’s poor them. 89 was the perfect example! If you clowns actually banded together with the regional guys, JQ, and took it to QF perhaps you would have more support. It is inevitable that you too will be forced into a battle for your positions once the A380 and B737s go. Do you want to be in that fight alone or have all the others you refused to support and belittled taking your jobs. You get what you deserve.

[ScepticalOptomist]

My comment was just an attempt to add another dot point to the argument making a comparison with the teaching profession. We all know what is involved in getting the required qualifications to join an airline, and you clearly outline the risks. You’re preaching to the converted here but without all the facts you’re just in an echo chamber.

I’d be the first to advocate for Network pilots to get a massive payrise. With a higher cost base, it may potentially result in less farming out of flying from Mainline, thereby improving my own progression and job security. We’ve seen unprecedented growth at Network over the last 5 years while QF SH is left to wither on the vine.

Wholeheartedly agree all the subsidiaries should be paid better - I reckon it should be a lifestyle choice - not a pay choice - between the entities / hauls..

[Lapon]

OK sure mate, it’s my fault that Network pilots are paid below market rates :hmm:


I don't think you'll find any network pilots blaming other pilot groups for thier problems. Thats what a number of QF mainline pilots on these threads seem to do.

You might not like thier conditions so you don't work there, but remember not everyone thinks QF mainline is all that flash either and for them a subsidiary might have more appeal.

As far as network crews go, each had thier reasons for joining and all they are trying to do by the sounds of the thread title is try and improve upon that.

[morno]

Qantas pilots have always been their own problem. Love to take an elitist attitude and only care about themselves right up until they are threatened, then it’s poor them. 89 was the perfect example! If you clowns actually banded together with the regional guys, JQ, and took it to QF perhaps you would have more support. It is inevitable that you too will be forced into a battle for your positions once the A380 and B737s go. Do you want to be in that fight alone or have all the others you refused to support and belittled taking your jobs. You get what you deserve.

Ye have so little clue….

Why will the A380’s going matter? And same with the 737’s. The A350, 787 and A321 are already included in the relevant EBA’s, so they can’t be farmed out (any attempt to is effectively a transfer of business, not allowed).

As for the A220, watch this space. I’ve said for a while now that I bet a fair chunk of them end up in mainline. Still stand by that.

Finally, how exactly are all the respective groups supposed to “stick it to the company”? Most EBA’s expire at different times, and any action outside of that is effectively unprotected industrial action. There are laws against that mate.

[Lapon]

Finally, how exactly are all the respective groups supposed to “stick it to the company”? Most EBA’s expire at different times, and any action outside of that is effectively unprotected industrial action. There are laws against that mate.

Genuine question: Could it be done under the multi employer bargaining provisions?
A brief google search suggests an employer may no longer have the choice:
https://www.landers.com.au/multi-enterprise-bargaining

I don't know alot about it nor have I heard much chat about what could reverse the divide and conquer trend of recent decades.

[ActiveLooker]

Just heard the Chief Pilot at Network hand delivering threatening letters to pilots homes. Telling them if they don’t endorse the rubbish EA proposal the company will file for Intractable Bargaining. Keep up the pressure boys and girls!! Bully’s never win. Amazing how PIA brings out the best in the worst.

[aussieflyboy]

As for the A220, watch this space. I’ve said for a while now that I bet a fair chunk of them end up in mainline. Still stand by that.



Qantas Pilots have lost that battle champ. AIPA even spat the dummy and made Qantas change the paint job from ‘QANTAS’ back to ‘QANTASLINK’.

NJS have never (well no more than others) had problems recruiting in their 35+ years why would you think they’ll have problems now?

It’ll be good to see Network F100 Pilots being paid more than NJS A220 Pilots once they run a successful PIA campaign.

[ShandywithSugar]

4 hour airport reserve for pilots , up to 4 times per month. What a deal.

[Transition Layer]

Just heard the Chief Pilot at Network hand delivering threatening letters to pilots homes. Telling them if they don’t endorse the rubbish EA proposal the company will file for Intractable Bargaining. Keep up the pressure boys and girls!! Bully’s never win. Amazing how PIA brings out the best in the worst.
Call the police for trespassing and then take out a restraining order :p

[dejapoo]

NJS have never (well no more than others) had problems recruiting in their 35+ years why would you think they’ll have problems now?



Hahahahahaha you obviously dont work there. Ask your SBP how the recruitment days are going (last campaign).

[HongKongflu]

Hand delivered letters to Pilot homes today, "sign the new EBA or you will have back pay cancelled and pay other various penalties & "other options." QF have become a ****ty employer but this kind of intimidation is very nasty. A few Network pilots might be updating their CV's this weekend.

[framer]

Hand delivered letters to Pilot homes today, "sign the new EBA or you will have back pay cancelled and pay other various penalties & "other options." I actually find that hard to believe. Can anyone confirm that the CP was turning up at peoples homes? Very hard to believe.

[Mr Mossberg]

That sort of thing, Fairwork finding out about it would trigger all sorts of action. Not even the most stupid of stupid people would do it.

[The Love Doctor]

Park the jets team.
Hell yeh! What he said. Do It!

[bazza stub]

If true, once again the bullying and intimidation that would land you in the lockup if you did that to someone in the streets is ok in the corporate world. Tell em to get f**ked and pull the full extent of the approved PIA.

[framer]

If true, imagine what Joe Aston will do with it!

[morno]

NJS have never (well no more than others) had problems recruiting in their 35+ years why would you think they’ll have problems now?

Hahaha, what planet are you on buddy? NJS, the same company that can barely hold onto the pilots they’ve got, let alone recruit more?

Qantas Pilots have lost that battle champ. AIPA even spat the dummy and made Qantas change the paint job from ‘QANTAS’ back to ‘QANTASLINK’.

I look forward to seeing you eat your humble pie when the time comes that mainline pilots are flying them on mainline conditions. Champ.

[PoppaJo]

Send it to Joe Aston and Robyn Ironside. They make their contact details readily available on the platforms they write.

If a CP rocks up on my property putting letters or anything threatening in my letterbox, well I’d be calling the police. Forward the Police case number onto legal and communications.

CP needs to be sacked. I really hope that is not true above.

[RealSatoshi]

I actually find that hard to believe. Can anyone confirm that the CP was turning up at peoples homes? Very hard to believe.
It's True to the extent that I've seen a copy of the letter sent over from the West.

AFAIK it was not the CP delivering but rumoured to be a ramp worker on overtime or something of that sort...Apparently letters have been arriving throughout the day as this individual, or batch of them, did the rounds.

[framer]

delivering threatening letters to pilots homes. Telling them if they don’t endorse the rubbish EA proposal the company will file for Intractable Bargaining.
​​​​​​​So it’s not the CP, is it ‘in good faith’ from a legal perspective?

[HongKongflu]

I actually find that hard to believe. Can anyone confirm that the CP was turning up at peoples homes? Very hard to believe.
I never said the CP hand delivered them only that they were hand delivered. 100% they were, I have seen the two page letter, signed by the CP. It says you had better agree to the proposed EBA or we will financially / also fine other ways to penalise you. It's straight up intimidation and shows very poor judgement. It's on Network letterhead / not Qantas. QF have added intimidation and threats to their own staff in their own homes, not cool QANTAS, NOT COOL AT ALL, THESE GUYS ARE ALREADY UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE !

[SOPS]

I never said the CP hand delivered them only that they were hand delivered. 100% they were, I have seen the two page letter, signed by the CP. It says you had better agree to the proposed EBA or we will financially / also fine other ways to penalise you. It's straight up intimidation and shows very poor judgement. It's on Network letterhead / not Qantas. QF have added intimidation and threats to their own staff in their own homes, not cool QANTAS, NOT COOL AT ALL, THESE GUYS ARE ALREADY UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE !.

This reminds me of something …….

[framer]

It’s all cool HongKong, just building a picture of what actually happened and someone other than you posted Just heard the Chief Pilot at Network hand delivering threatening letters to pilots homes. so I wanted to make sure that wasn’t the case, I wanted to see what else in the story was bollocks.
​​​​​​​Can someone post the letter?

[Asianexpress]

.

This reminds me of something …….

Sounds like we are in the late 80's.........

[HongKongflu]

No problem, I just want to make sure the story is straight. The facts are important. I have the letter but as a mainline employee, I don't want to be sacked under the social media policy for posting it. Whilst Network are a "group airline" they only get treated as such when it is advantageous to the company, for now they are getting intimidated, have a terrible pay scale, rostering rules and protections. I'm concerned because if QF keep allowing this, they will be coming for the Domestic / mainline guys next.

[Chronic Snoozer]

It says you had better agree to the proposed EBA or we will financially / also fine other ways to penalise you. It's straight up intimidation and shows very poor judgement. It's on Network letterhead / not Qantas. QF have added intimidation and threats to their own staff in their own homes, not cool QANTAS, NOT COOL AT ALL, THESE GUYS ARE ALREADY UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE !

When you file for and have PIA approved, you are loading a gun and cocking it. There may be consequences. It’s all part of industrial relations. It is naive to think that the Company will react in the way the workforce intends. I would be surprised if management haven’t already thought through a strategy to stem the effect of PIA. There are many legal ways of making your life difficult to exert the necessary pressure to force the pilots’ hands, which is exactly what PIA is. Docking pay for work not done, is one of them. Delivering a letter so that everyone is informed of what the Company intends doing if you persist with PIA may appear intimidating but it’s likely straight out of the industrial relations playbook. (Caveat - we have not seen the contents of the letter) Please do not crumble at the first sign of adversity.

[DirectAnywhere]

As if any threat to Network pilots has any real credibility.

What, are they going to go out in the current global pilot market and find A320 pilots willing to work for less than the current pilots??

Good Fkn luck with that.

[aussieflyboy]

When you file for and have PIA approved, you are loading a gun and cocking it. There may be consequences. It’s all part of industrial relations. It is naive to think that the Company will react in the way the workforce intends. I would be surprised if management haven’t already thought through a strategy to stem the effect of PIA. There are many legal ways of making your life difficult to exert the necessary pressure to force the pilots’ hands, which is exactly what PIA is. Docking pay for work not done, is one of them. Delivering a letter so that everyone is informed of what the Company intends doing if you persist with PIA may appear intimidating but it’s likely straight out of the industrial relations playbook. (Caveat - we have not seen the contents of the letter) Please do not crumble at the first sign of adversity.

If you’re flying a plane on behalf of the company you will be paid.

You will still be paid if you fly a full approach (add an hold for good luck) and waste as much fuel as possible flying at lower levels. Full bicky takeoffs, don’t work day offs or extend, refusal of all MELs ect. A smart union will put forward smart industrial action that provides pain to the company and ensures you will still be paid.

Im not sure if this letter is real but if it is the person who wrote it should be named and shamed - how embarrassing for them.

[Lapon]

If I'm not mistaken the only time you won't be paid is if the protected industrial action involves a withdrawal of labour (what people loosly mean by going on strike).

The problem with the withdrawal of labour is that you don't get paid, and it requries notice so the company can plan accordingly.
Industrial action such as not working days off, not accepting MELs etc as far more effective as it has to be managed in real time instead.

[blueys]

In 89 i got a writ from Sir Peter Ables stil have it as a keepsake .
as mensiond above withdrawl of cooperation is the way to go

[stevieboy330]

Cathay did a similar thing a few years ago, new contract in your letter box, it became know as the "take it or leave" offer. Many left, many put up with it for a while & then left, few remain, none are happy.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Cathay did a similar thing a few years ago, new contract in your letter box, it became know as the "take it or leave" offer. Many left, many put up with it for a while & then left, few remain, none are happy.

Swire are a law unto themselves, but here in australia Qantas is…..oh forget I brought it up 🤐

[HEALY]

“Deeply concerned Tony” has been stooging around QF so I am sure some Swire notes were put in a few pigeon holes

[Jack D. Ripper]

QF Group Pilot leverage has never been stronger.

VH is on the apology trail, off the back of illegal sackings they will be desperate to prove the culture has changed. With a $2.47B profit banked, they can’t cry poor.

Pilots are leaving for greener pastures left, right and centre.

Meanwhile fleet growth continues.

[v1bang]

I actually find that hard to believe. Can anyone confirm that the CP was turning up at peoples homes? Very hard to believe.

not the CP, but contractors in high vis with no company name on them, driving all white vans and plain cars, handing out blank white envelopes with the letter inside. Some delivery drivers were seen taking photos of them placing the letter in the envelopes… just wow.

[brokenagain]

I hope Joe Aston finds a copy of this letter in his inbox.

[Lead Balloon]

Somebody organised for an important piece of correspondence to be hand delivered to the intended recipient? Have to say: I'm not seeing anything unusual in that.

As to the substance of the corro...

Here's some good advice from my dearly-departed Mum: Never give an ultimatum in a relationship. At that point it's doomed.

Those who "take it" rather than "leave it" - don't say you weren't warned.

[Angle of Attack]

Can’t you Network pilots just all jump ship and get a job elsewhere your contract is a ridiculous joke to every other pilot in the country, it is pathetic, you guys literally are the ultimate laughing stock, just leave there’s no point trying to fight when you prostituted yourselves for basically GA conditions. Without a doubt your spines will collapse, leopards never change spots, begin without a spine you will never grow a spine.

[aussieflyboy]

Can’t you Network pilots just all jump ship and get a job elsewhere your contract is a ridiculous joke to every other pilot in the country, it is pathetic, you guys literally are the ultimate laughing stock, just leave there’s no point trying to fight when you prostituted yourselves for basically GA conditions. Without a doubt your spines will collapse, leopards never change spots, begin without a spine you will never grow a spine.

Where do you expect them to go? Skippers, Paul Lyons? Most people are at Network because they want to live in Perth. People aren’t going to pull their kids out of school and move away from their friends and family.

They have an ideal opportunity to improve terms and conditions right now and I expect they’ll shortly be paid more then the Qantas Group Pilots who’ll be flying the sparkly new Qantas (QantasLink) jet plane.

[framer]

Don’t worry about AofA, he must have been feeling pretty rotten inside when he wrote that last post. I hope he feels better soon ( I genuinely do).
I haven’t come across one colleague who isn’t fully supportive of your current IR efforts let alone one who is laughing at you.
Good luck over the coming months.

[morno]

Don’t worry about AofA, he must have been feeling pretty rotten inside when he wrote that last post. I hope he feels better soon ( I genuinely do).
I haven’t come across one colleague who isn’t fully supportive of your current IR efforts let alone one who is laughing at you.
Good luck over the coming months.

Agreed. They’re trying to improve pay and conditions and then you’ve got knobs like AofA coming along and belittling them. Not on.

[The Love Doctor]

Can’t you Network pilots just all jump ship and get a job elsewhere your contract is a ridiculous joke to every other pilot in the country, it is pathetic, you guys literally are the ultimate laughing stock, just leave there’s no point trying to fight when you prostituted yourselves for basically GA conditions. Without a doubt your spines will collapse, leopards never change spots, begin without a spine you will never grow a spine.
have another beer bro

[Oldbrigade]

EB will try to find a way to whiteant and discredit pilots for as long as he is involved in aviation. He never really made it and his track record of jobs proves that

[flyinghorseman]

I resubmit my post from April to remind the lads what they are up against:

"This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are **** scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all"

If a letter in your mail box rattles you ain't seen nothing yet. Stick together and communicate with each other (expect a #2 type from the above list to leak the contents to management.) Your NET pay is between 5,000 and $10,000 per month LESS than a similar position within the Qantas group and less than your pax that scrub dunnies on the Goodwyn Alpha oil rig.
Fold in the current environment and you are destined to an underwhelming future.

[ActiveLooker]

I’m always amazed by the number of grubs in Australian Aviation, especially the self entitled, egotistical Qantas flogs. When will you clowns wake up and support pilots as a group rather than yourselves and your fellow spawned maggots. I commend Network pilots, many whom I know and respect as much more qualified and professional
pilots than QF. They are taking the fight to an incompetent management team and fighting for what they deserve. I’m waiting for the day when it’s your turn to defend the wrath and hope everyone around you treat you the same as you treat others.

[morno]

I wouldn’t go that far AL, there’s quite a few of us at mainline who are in support of the Network guys.

Unfortunately there’s just a few flogs who can’t see that they’re fighting a battle with the wrong people.

[ActiveLooker]

I wouldn’t go that far AL, there’s quite a few of us at mainline who are in support of the Network guys.

Unfortunately there’s just a few flogs who can’t see that they’re fighting a battle with the wrong people.

yes Morno you are right and I apologise to the non-flogs. It’s sad to see pilots against pilots, especially those working for the same greedy machine. The Network folk are making a stance and need everyone’s support.

[HongKongflu]

I'm QF mainline, long enough to have been there the day Ansett closed its doors. I can tell you, pretty much everyone I work with is in support of you guys at Network. You are getting treated like Sh!t & all but a few sad dickheads at mainline want to see you get a much better deal & keep doing what you do to contribute to the group, best of luck & well done standing up to be counted ! To all my learned colleagues out there, it's time to take the high road, this kind of stuff matters for all professional airline Pilots.

[flyingfrenchman]

Solid effort on the numbers!!!

[aussieflyboy]

Solid effort on the numbers!!!

Why not enlighten the rest of us…

[MikeHatter732]

Why not enlighten the rest of us…
I heard 91% for the Eastern one from a few people that are there, not sure about Sunnies and Network though.

[davidclarke]

I heard 91% for the Eastern one from a few people that are there, not sure about Sunnies and Network though.

Sunnies 95% apparently. Any idea of Network?

[Beer Baron]

You can see the results for yourself, FWC publishes them: Network PIA ballot (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/ballot-results/afap_2023881.pdf)

Looks like all but 1 of the eligible pilots voted and ~97% support the various actions.

Great work guys and girls. Good luck with the next stage, I hope you get a good outcome.

[1234fly]

98% for PIA according to an afap email. Stick it to them everyone...time for them to pay

[The Love Doctor]

98% for PIA according to an afap email. Stick it to them everyone...time for them to pay
Great work Network guys/girls! Go hard! Remember the chairman just gave himself a 32% payrise or something ridiculous

[aussieflyboy]

98% for PIA according to an afap email. Stick it to them everyone...time for them to pay

Thats an absolute embarrassment to the company negotiators and shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation.

A level of incompetence like that should really result in anyone involved in the company’s side of negotiation be stood aside and fresh people brought in.

Looks like 1 Pilot (out of 211) voted ‘No’ to a lot of the questions - imagine being that person…

[HongKongflu]

Those results make the Network GM / CP look like an absolute fool.

[LostontheLOC]

Network - the hero's we need and deserve.

Get everything guys, you are setting the standard for everyone!

[1234fly]

If a stop work happens, wouldn't it be a shame if there was a "qantas flu" going round on that day for the rest of the pilot cohort at QF

[ActiveLooker]

If a stop work happens, wouldn't it be a shame if there was a "qantas flu" going round on that day for the rest of the pilot cohort at QF

Would work both ways if you SH guys decided to have a stop work meeting during your negotiations I’m sure.

[Jester64]

If a stop work happens, wouldn't it be a shame if there was a "qantas flu" going round on that day for the rest of the pilot cohort at QF

Wishful thinking, but I doubt mainline pilots will risk their careers to save Network drivers. Human nature will ultimately always prevail.

[ActiveLooker]

Wishful thinking, but I doubt mainline pilots will risk their careers to save Network drivers. Human nature will ultimately always prevail.

the way I see it Mainline are the threatened species here. They might fine themselves defending their jobs and what comes around goes around

[Jester64]

In this cost of living crisis they’ll be more likely to be licking their chops at the increased overtime pay and short-term financial gain. A few pruners will also need to justify their posts claiming they can earn 300-400K a year if they ‘work hard’.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Mainline has trouble crewing it’s own flights atm let alone any Network overflow

[ScepticalOptomist]

Wishful thinking, but I doubt mainline pilots will risk their careers to save Network drivers. Human nature will ultimately always prevail.

Reckon we just might. Attitudes have changed a fair bit and most the guys and gals are up for a bit of a fight.

[cloudsurfng]

I’m not sure which day they’ll need covering, but I’m busy.

[ActiveLooker]

I’m not sure which day they’ll need covering, but I’m busy.

4th October I hear

[cloudsurfng]

4th October I hear

busy.

[Hollywood1]

https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/threat-to-mining-as-qantas-fifo-pilots-move-towards-strike-20230926-p5e7rv

A QantasLink spokeswoman said AFAP’s step towards industrial action was “disappointing” as the airline had offered “significant” pay rises and more guaranteed days off each roster period.

“We have already reached in-principle agreement with the two other unions representing Network Aviation pilots, and we’re continuing to negotiate in good faith to secure new agreements with our turboprop pilots,” she said.

“If the union proceeds with industrial action, we have contingency plans to minimise disruptions to customers.”


I wonder what her definition of "Significant pay rise" is?

[brokenagain]

I wonder what her definition of "Significant pay rise" is?

Wasn’t Goyder’s pay increase over the last financial year 38%? That should be the minimum pay rise demanded by any frontline worker going forwards, you know, the actual people who generate revenue, not the shiny bums in head office.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

​​​​A QantasLink spokeswoman said AFAP’s step towards industrial action was “disappointing” as the airline had offered “significant” pay rises and more guaranteed days off each roster period.

“We have already reached in-principle agreement with the two other unions representing Network Aviation pilots, and we’re continuing to negotiate in good faith to secure new agreements with our turboprop pilots,” she said.

“If the union proceeds with industrial action, we have contingency plans to minimise disruptions to customers.”​​​

What she omits to mention is the fact that this “significant” pay rise fails to compensate crew for the loss of over all income thanks to pay freezes etc. It is a blatant untruth that this is a significant pay rise, it’s not.

AFAP’s step towards industrial action is both a result of the members sentiments towards this offer and the climate in which we live and work. A climate that for the first time in decades, benefits pilots instead of the company. If they were smart, they would throw the old playbook away and employ professional a negotiation standard.

[ActiveLooker]

**** them guys, go hard! The rest of the QF Group should refuse to break strike lines and go sick

[ShandywithSugar]

Less than 24 hours after the PIA results are released, the proposed EBA has been withdrawn. Ongoing discussions around claim areas are to be had and the company welcome the opportunity to have them.

Thats how you do it ...

Would staying at the table as one association did get the same result?

[ActiveLooker]

Less than 24 hours after the PIA results are released, the proposed EBA has been withdrawn. Ongoing discussions around claim areas are to be had and the company welcome the opportunity to have them.

Thats how you do it ...

Would staying at the table as one association did get the same result?

typical bully behaviour. Keep strong guys. Bend them over and drive that bus

[dr dre]

https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/threat-to-mining-as-qantas-fifo-pilots-move-towards-strike-20230926-p5e7rv



I wonder what her definition of "Significant pay rise" is?

Out of interest what are the proposed rates vs what are the union seeking, and are there any other sticking points or issues leading to the Industrial action?

Legally approved actions leading to set objectives in all for but just downing tools to ‘stick it to them’ is ridiculous.

[Buttscratcher]

Ok , Dr D...a drunken post if I may....

Network are a FIFO Charter and QF RPT Hybrid company....quite unlike a stable environment with which you'd choose to rase you family....and they have a lot of Jets.

Their current EA draft offering is 36 pages....there are no real protections for rosters, or layovers.....things of that nature.
There is no limit to rostered Reserve days....so they can be used as 'Place Holders' after roster release.
As reference, example, SH has 168 pages of protections....JQ has 78...Virgin has 120.

The next 6 years flying A320s is going to be harsh if it's not 'Future Proofed' now.....and that's for everyone...mindful of SH, as the feeling is that QF will use this NAA flexibility as a sneaky tool to undermine group flying as well.

The real fight here, is to bring the Network pilot's total conditions into the present day, and to prevent 'Same Job, Less pay' erosion of everyone else's conditions...read SH.
NAA Pilots are doing us all a big favour here.

Go Hard, Good Luck....and Thank You!

[blubak]

https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/threat-to-mining-as-qantas-fifo-pilots-move-towards-strike-20230926-p5e7rv



I wonder what her definition of "Significant pay rise" is?
And shes 'disappointed'
Well guess what bimbo, the pilots are fed up with the rhetoric so go suck eggs & come back with something worthwhile.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/landmark-decision-inches-childcare-workers-closer-to-massive-pay-rise/news-story/d9801aedf60a7cb6718d11654a97da46?amp

She can add this landmark precedent to her next offer too I reckon.

[Lapon]

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/landmark-decision-inches-childcare-workers-closer-to-massive-pay-rise/news-story/d9801aedf60a7cb6718d11654a97da46?amp

She can add this landmark precedent to her next offer too I reckon.

And best of all it doesn't require different employers to agree to the multi employer bargaining.

Could this be the end of the road of the divide and conquer path?
It would require the different pilot groups to work together however, and well... Straya.

[framer]

It would require the different pilot groups to work together however, and well... Straya.
I am hopeful that the past is not necessarily the best indicator of the future on this topic. Over the last twenty years divide and conquer has been successful but there seems to be a shift in the mindset of many ‘workers’ across all industries post Covid.
The stage has been set perfectly for aircrew and Engineers across Australia, at all levels to achieve significant improvements to their working conditions. There will always be those who dredge up the past and focus inwardly but they are not the majority. I think that we will see QF Mainline crews supporting pilots from Jetconnect , Jetstar pilots sending messages of support to Virgin pilots, Rex pilots supporting Bonza pilots, a final realisation that companies are pretty much all the same mish mash of lawyers and accountants with licence holders doing the work and taking the responsibility. If they’re a licence holder, you should be supporting their efforts to improve conditions if you want the same for yourself. Forget what company they work for, support the colleague.
If you get a chance to voice a similar attitude then do it because it may be the difference between letting this career path continue to decline or making it great again.
( keep in mind that I’m an optimist) :)

[hawk_eye]

It’s on! Ladies and gents - well done and keep up the good fight!

https://apple.news/A_lA_f5ypTRynqGnXQPOxPw

Qantas pilots who operate passenger, charter and fly-in-fly-out (Fifo) services in Western Australia will stop work for 24 hours next week, as workers negotiating a new pay deal complain of wages “significantly lower” compared to other airlines.

The Australian Federation of Air Pilots (Afap), which represents pilots employed by Network Aviation – a subsidiary of Qantas Group which operates Qantas Link, Fifo and charter services for the airline in Western Australia – said it notified Qantas management on Thursday afternoon about the stop work action.

Members will proceed with a 24-hour stoppage of all work on Wednesday 4 October.

[Australopithecus]

I already had my appendix out but I bet it flares up again late on 3/10

[Lookleft]

So does that mean that only pilots rostered to fly on the 4th will be stopping work? Will the other pilots gather at the airport with placards and in uniform to support them?

[Buttscratcher]

Good one!
Hit them hard!
I expect y'all will be at Tibby's with a glass in your hand at 12.00 Wednesday.....

[Gnadenburg]

Thinking of you guys. Good luck!

[stevieboy330]

Wow Network Pilots ! Hats off to you ! Thats a show of solidarity & sticking up for yourselves that's very impressive, 99% of Pilots on the same page is legendary.

[dr dre]

So does that mean that only pilots rostered to fly on the 4th will be stopping work? Will the other pilots gather at the airport with placards and in uniform to support them?

My feeling is it won’t get that far. The mining companies will have a revolt on their hands if their workers are stuck on site for longer than necessary, and production may be impacted. They’ll be the ones who force a resolution IMO.

[1234fly]

Picket line at the airport would be good to see what low lives are coming in and covering for the company

[BravoSierraLima]

What a contrast between the AFAP members (well, all but one of them) who clearly have had enough and are willing to stick their necks out and the reps or members of the other unions who were happy to accept another substandard deal! I hope you all know that you have near unanimous support from pilots, cabin crew, engineers and ground crew all over the country.

Does anyone know if the Network pilots manage to get yearly salary increases above 3% and/or reject the 2 year wage freeze, do those then automatically get applied to all the Qantas Group EBAs that have already been signed off so far with a 2 year wage freeze and 3% increases? If so, it should be called the Network allowance!

I also hope the Eastern, Sunstate and mainline SH pilots are seeing what happens when you threaten to go on strike. It's not 2011 anymore.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Way to go guys and girls, stick it to them.

[HighSpeedPolar]

Have heard the dreaded lurgy is spreading through mainline and all the subsidiaries with the start of school holidays...

To all the Network crew way to go - wishing the best for you and your families no matter what company or union -- now is the time.

[PoppaJo]

‘We have contingency plans to minimise disruption’

No they don’t.

[MikeHatter732]

‘We have contingency plans to minimise disruption’

No they don’t.
Yeah, what a load of baloney.

They can't even crew flights when its ops normal. Just another idle threat to try and intimidate.

[sid-star]

You look after your core asset and they'll look after you. Good faith works in more than one direction.

[blubak]

Yeah, what a load of baloney.

They can't even crew flights when its ops normal. Just another idle threat to try and intimidate.
They really must think everyone except them are stupid,
Where are there F100 pilots they can suddenly call on & on top of that if they did actually find a few 320 drivers on the east coast what a logistical nightmare to get them to Perth.
Just more HR huff & puff.

[BuzzBox]

Where are there F100 pilots they can suddenly call on & on top of that if they did actually find a few 320 drivers on the east coast what a logistical nightmare to get them to Perth.

It would take more than a bunch of spare pilots to keep the show on the road, especially if the different 'entities' operate under separate AOCs.

[No upgrade]

I also hope the Eastern, Sunstate and mainline SH pilots are seeing what happens when you threaten to go on strike. It's not 2011 anymore.

Will never happen with SH pilots. They’ve been voting for free reserve coverage and B scales for decades now.

More than a few of them will see this as a suck up opportunity with some extra pay if it goes on more than a day.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Does anyone know if the Network pilots manage to get yearly salary increases above 3% and/or reject the 2 year wage freeze, do those then automatically get applied to all the Qantas Group EBAs that have already been signed off so far with a 2 year wage freeze and 3% increases? If so, it should be called the Network allowance!


As in, will they give a bunch of people a whole lot of cash, when they don’t legally have to, just out of the goodness of their hearts and because they feel guilty about being d1cks for the last few years?

I’m going to take a wild guess that the answer to that one is ‘no’. Love your optimism though. :ok:

[Global Aviator]

The mines won’t stand for distruption.

Will there be a fleet of charter aircraft put on for the FIFO that day?

Great work Network crew, finally an Aussie pilot group standing tall!!

[HEALY]

Most charter/fifo operators ranging from Barons to E190’s have their own clients and schedules to meet with very little flexibly in their own staffing levels. The contingency plan will probably involve an extra day off for outbound mine workers and an extra days slog for those already at site. Unless they can get them all to Port Headland and put on a couple A330’s 🤔

[walesregent]

Most charter/fifo operators ranging from Barons to E190’s have their own clients and schedules to meet with very little flexibly in their own staffing levels. The contingency plan will probably involve an extra day off for outbound mine workers and an extra days slog for those already at site. Unless they can get them all to Port Headland and put on a couple A330’s 🤔

It will probably involve cancelling all RPT and diverting all resources available to mining charter. As usual the travelling public takes a back seat. Lots of FIFO workers are moved around on RPT so the impact on industry will still be significant.

[KRviator]

Most charter/fifo operators ranging from Barons to E190’s have their own clients and schedules to meet with very little flexibly in their own staffing levels. The contingency plan will probably involve an extra day off for outbound mine workers and an extra days slog for those already at site. Unless they can get them all to Port Headland and put on a couple A330’s 🤔Depends who you work for and what role you're in. We can't do more than 7 nights, so after going 7D then 7N we're at our fatigue limit anyway, even if they wanted us to work due to no inbound crew, A we couldn't, and B, we'd need a lay-up/rest day to move back to DS for that coverage. They'd be better off keeping the DS crew on DS to work 8D, 6N.

As for the outgoing crew, there likely won't be any extra days off, as the companies will use the same excuse they do when a cyclone hits on Day14/21 and they keep you on site until the red alert is over..."We are not responsible for flight delays...."

[cLeArIcE]

Does anyone know if the Network pilots manage to get yearly salary increases above 3% and/or reject the 2 year wage freeze, do those then automatically get applied to all the Qantas Group EBAs that have already been signed off so far with a 2 year wage freeze and 3% increases? If so, it should be called the Network allowance!

I believe there is an agreement in place that any pay rise outside the wages policy would then apply to all the other entities as.well. However, this is QF and they'd probably just ignore such agreement should it become necessary.

They are not going to deviate from the wages policy. What will happen is there will be some cash Under the table to bring the package up. (Just like the engineers and JQ who got more than 3%). But management must be able to stand up and beat their chests declaring that the peasants signed another EBA within the "wages policy."
The alternative is no resolution and this becomes a test case with the new intractable bargaining.laws.
This could be a disaster for QF so can't see them wanting to pursue that avenue.

[CaptCloudbuster]

They are not going to deviate from the wages policy.

Let’s just wait and see how that plays out shall we.
QF are no longer in the position to dictate unilateral terms. There hasn’t been a position so favourable to the Pilots in a LONG time.

[Lapon]

I believe there is an agreement in place that any pay rise outside the wages policy would then apply to all the other entities as.well. However, this is QF and they'd probably just ignore such agreement should it become necessary.

They are not going to deviate from the wages policy. What will happen is there will be some cash Under the table to bring the package up. (Just like the engineers and JQ who got more than 3%). But management must be able to stand up and beat their chests declaring that the peasants signed another EBA within the "wages policy."
The alternative is no resolution and this becomes a test case with the new intractable bargaining.laws.
This could be a disaster for QF so can't see them wanting to pursue that avenue.

I was thinking exaclty the same. The base pay will remain as per the 'wages policy' with a (insert name here) annual allowance of $$$ to bridge the gap.

[hawk_eye]

I believe there is an agreement in place that any pay rise outside the wages policy would then apply to all the other entities as.well. However, this is QF and they'd probably just ignore such agreement should it become necessary.

They are not going to deviate from the wages policy. What will happen is there will be some cash Under the table to bring the package up. (Just like the engineers and JQ who got more than 3%). But management must be able to stand up and beat their chests declaring that the peasants signed another EBA within the "wages policy."


What will be interesting is that if this does end up down the path of an intractable bargaining order, and the commissioner determines that wage increases above 3% are to be awarded, how this would play out with other groups that have the ‘me too’ clause like JQ

[walesregent]

The alternative is no resolution and this becomes a test case with the new intractable bargaining.laws.
This could be a disaster for QF so can't see them wanting to pursue that avenue.

They’re the ones who used this as a threat. Interesting they would want to open themselves up to a determination given how well they have gone for them recently.

[aussieflyboy]

I was thinking exaclty the same. The base pay will remain as per the 'wages policy' with a (insert name here) annual allowance of $$$ to bridge the gap.

Dont vote yes for rubbish like that. Those ‘allowances’ won’t attract Super (that alone could cost you $100K+ depending on your age) and can be removed at the next EA.

[ActiveLooker]

They’re the ones who used this as a threat. Interesting they would want to open themselves up to a determination given how well they have gone for them recently.

Totally agree! I see it as a win for the Network guys if it goes down the IB path. The arrogant management team show their inexperience by using government appointed commissioners to decide. The media hype would drive a huge employee win if they went IB.

[framer]

What will be interesting is that if this does end up down the path of an intractable bargaining order
The way I see it VH and the board have five issues that are making headlines 1/ The illegal sackings 2/ The ghost flights 3/ The quid pro quo 4/ The Covid flight credits 5/ The timing of Joyce’s share sale regarding ACCC info
If they have half a brain between them they’ll be managing this as one event ( one long fire front ) and be acutely aware that they can’t afford spot fires popping up behind them, they have limited resources. They’ll also be aware that todays big news story is quickly forgotten tomorrow……..unless its media value is annoyingly kept alive by the court system. They will be highly motivated to avoid any new court actions until they have weathered the worst of the storm. The timing on the 4th October couldn’t be better for our WA colleagues.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Let’s just wait and see how that plays out shall we.
QF are no longer in the position to dictate unilateral terms. There hasn’t been a position so favourable to the Pilots in a LONG time.

Precisely this.

[cLeArIcE]

They’re the ones who used this as a threat. Interesting they would want to open themselves up to a determination given how well they have gone for them recently.
Well they are either stupid (I don't think they are) or they are fresh out of ideas and resorting to empty threats to try and scare a few people. It worked.. on one or two people only 😂

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Perth Radio 6PR reporting this arvo that Network pilots will be 'walking off' next Wed - 4th Oct...........

Cheers

[PoppaJo]

I await the pearlers from the JQ ‘cough’ I mean QF playbook.

We absolutely want to do a deal that rewards our people for the great work that they do every day but we're not going to do that at any cost.

🖕

[ActiveLooker]

Wednesday national flu day for all pilots in support for our Network colleagues???

[A320 Flyer]

With the roster SMS texts for this weekend off the charts…. Personal texts from SH crewing…. Emails from local base teams AND base managers (who never email about anything) all happening today….. let’s just say, there is enough discord in the SH ranks that we are definitely not the contingency they think they have….. smash it out of the park Network and lay the ground work for us and the rest of the group to follow!!!!

[blubak]

With the roster SMS texts for this weekend off the charts…. Personal texts from SH crewing…. Emails from local base teams AND base managers (who never email about anything) all happening today….. let’s just say, there is enough discord in the SH ranks that we are definitely not the contingency they think they have….. smash it out of the park Network and lay the ground work for us and the rest of the group to follow!!!!
Didnt they say the effect would be minimal as they had contingency plans🤣

[No upgrade]

let’s just say….that we are definitely not the contingency they think they have…..
Let’s just say you definitely are….easy to talk the talk for one day. What will you do over weeks and months? Yup.

​​​​lay the ground work for us and the rest of the group to follow!!!!​​​
Like you’ve been laying the ground work all these years? Voting in QF alter ego carriers and B scales for your 3% and a few carrots. So PLEASE stop, the rest of the group are following….in the remnants of YOUR destruction of pilot conditions in Australia.

[Thumb War]

Yes, mainline pilots are to blame and subsidiary pilots, especially network pilots armrest the messiah (plural).

In all seriousness, full support to the network pilots during their PIA. We’re all behind you

[Beer Baron]

You really are dense No Upgrade. You want unity, but every chance you get you denigrate Qf mainline pilots on this forum. Pretty stupid way to appeal for help.

You also show your ignorance of IR law and history.
a) Pilots don’t get to vote on whether their employer buys a new subsidy.
b) Mainline pilots took PIA to protect their flying and it got shut down by the Federal Government.

Qantas successfully used the threat of farming out mainline flying to other operators over the last decade. (Not an idle threat given they’ve done exactly that to varying degrees). Network pilots are in a strong position though, as there is no such threat hanging over their heads. The new jets are already on their way so the pilots can push hard for well deserved improvements.

Good luck to the Network pilots.

[Chronic Snoozer]

If there is one thing I cannot stand, it is bickering amongst pilot groups. Hold your egos and petty insults in check and support whoever and whatever action is taking place to raise conditions. A rising tide lifts all boats.