Network Aviation PIA

[cLeArIcE]

But are we going to walk away over "management" - I just wanna work and move on. I joined one of them calls n some of the changes arent half bad. a days and base sal are above what i expected.
I feel for all you networks flyers. Imagine sharing the flight deck with people like this. No self respect, no self worth, **** all over your fellow employees because you don't care and " if you don't like it leave" etc.
I Hope for all our sakes people like this are now in the minority.

[TooManyPineapples]

I feel for all you networks flyers. Imagine sharing the flight deck with people like this. No self respect, no self worth, **** all over your fellow employees because you don't care and " if you don't like it leave" etc.
I Hope for all our sakes people like this are now in the minority.

I hope for all our sake you keep your opinion about your colleagues to yourself on the flight deck. This person isn’t ****ting on anyone, just saying they see advantages in the proposal. You disagree. So what? You think your opinion trumps someone else’s? Get over yourself.

Anyone who says there’s nothing in the proposal hasn’t read it or doesn’t understand what’s changed. Once you do it becomes a question of is there enough value in it for you to sign off on? That’s the real here.

[The Love Doctor]

Those Tiger crews won some great conditions through PIA, really turned the screws on their company. But what happened in the first significant downturn that came along? Yeah, they shut that operation down. How are those Tiger crews & their great salaries going now?
The great conditions enjoyed by the Tiger guys/girls was not the reason they shut the operation down

[framer]

Imagine sharing the flight deck with people like this. No self respect, no self worth, **** all over your fellow employees because you don't care and " if you don't like it leave" etc.
Mate that is spiteful, rough, immature and very negative.
The whole system is geared up to be voted on. If the proposed contract is acceptable to someone and suits their purposes, they should vote yes. If the proposed contract is not suitable or doesn’t suit their purposes, they should vote no. Abusing someone’s character based on their assessment of the contract says a lot more about your character than theirs.

[FN4567]

So you think Im ****ting on people because I dont mind the new EA? - and I have no self respect or worth (wtaf) because I actually read the doc - can see I can get $50K increase, see my family, actually have roster protection, have reassignable period A DAY with limited buffer period (that was my issue before) - what is wrong with that - that's nothing to do with self worth. A very immature and disrespectful response (as others have said to you) cos Ive read the thing and actually think the changes for me personally work. I just wanna be with my fam, AL changes, roster protection is all i want - I get some things I had issues with in this new one - so it works for me.

[framer]

If everyone votes based on what they think personally then the system will work as best a system can work. Don’t be pushed to vote no by loud mouths, and don’t vote yes just to rail against them. Vote based on what you as an individual thinks is the best move. Maybe you are ok with it but sense that one more little push will get improvements with little adverse risk, or maybe you sense one more little push is too risky. Totally up to you.
Personally I’d take a break from social media until it is decided.

[transition_alt]

From what I’ve witnessed so far is Network trying to go from “zero to hero.” An atrocious EBA, to attempting to match mainline short haul. It’s not going to happen in one hit, or there’s no point in Network existing.
What’s on offer is not a great EBA, but many decent improvements compared to the old. You have to start somewhere and not over reach IMO…

[LostontheLOC]

So you think Im ****ting on people because I dont mind the new EA? - and I have no self respect or worth (wtaf) because I actually read the doc - can see I can get $50K increase, see my family, actually have roster protection, have reassignable period A DAY with limited buffer period (that was my issue before) - what is wrong with that - that's nothing to do with self worth. A very immature and disrespectful response (as others have said to you) cos Ive read the thing and actually think the changes for me personally work. I just wanna be with my fam, AL changes, roster protection is all i want - I get some things I had issues with in this new one - so it works for me.

But the thing is you don't have roster protection, you wont be home more with your family, you are still well below the standard earnings at which your pears - Do what makes you happy and what you think is best, but please don't think this is what the network pilots deserve, and which you can get this round.

[YeahNup]

But the thing is you don't have roster protection, you won't be home more with your family, you are still well below the standard earnings at which your pears - Do what makes you happy and what you think is best, but please don't think this is what the network pilots deserve, and which you can get this round.]

Could you prove this, please? There are lots of big statements without any facts to back them up. There is plenty of "bro science" and galley talk, nothing of any substance.

[FN4567]

Hmmm have you read it? Sure some things arent in there, but its better than it was the changes show. Ive joined EB / TW calls and the questions are coming in hot - All of which are being answered to what people want. Not saying they are farting rainbows but still a lot in there is some decent stuff. There IS roster protection. and there is more than what peers are getting. AL, ADAYS all the **** I never thought would ever be considered. I refused to read it, actively took PIA - Ive done my own homework and the changes arent what I expected. Anyway, each to their own.

[YeahNup]

Buttscratcher;11552615]DTA and other allowances
Mostly concerned about what's happening next year and subsequent growth.
Hobarts, Brisbane, back of the clock stuff, parking / overnighting at mine sites.....there's no future proofing in the current offering.
I suppose I'd be fine if the flying remained the same as it currently is......but it won't.
They lied in 2016 about no new types, and they are lying now about encroaching on SH routes[/i].

You're clearly in the know. How do you know all of this with such certainty? Do you have contacts in management?

[YeahNup]

Just in time for an Intractable Bargaining and Same-Job, Same-Pay test case - phones must surely be ringing off the hook somewhere in the QF malaise :E

You do realise that "same job - same pay" does not apply in this instance, right? And that Intractable bargaining is an unknown, unproven process with an uncertain outcome that apparently also legislates a 4-year deal once it's done - whether you like the outcome or not?

I'm sure you must know all this stuff; otherwise, you wouldn't be making all the claims.

[ShandywithSugar]

From what I’ve witnessed so far is Network trying to go from “zero to hero.” An atrocious EBA, to attempting to match mainline short haul. It’s not going to happen in one hit, or there’s no point in Network existing.
What’s on offer is not a great EBA, but many decent improvements compared to the old. You have to start somewhere and not over reach IMO…

Gets it.

[Pucken Pilot]

I remember an airline that used to exit in Australia not so long ago. Everyone used to come on this website and talk about the poor conditions on offer at XYZ, wonder why you’d ever work there when you could earn more money working fewer days at Tiger.

Those Tiger crews won some great conditions through PIA, really turned the screws on their company. But what happened in the first significant downturn that came along? Yeah, they shut that operation down. How are those Tiger crews & their great salaries going now?

Covid… and going bankrupt was not a significant downturn, it was Armageddon. They also shut down the NZ operation, the ATR operation and the WB operations. They didn’t single out Tiger due to the pilot EA cost. They shut it down because the company was on the brink of being bankrupt and they were scaling back to the core operation and jettisoning what they could to survive. As it was, shutting down Tiger didn’t help and it still slid into administration but Tiger wasn’t shut down based upon their EA. They could have been on the Award… it still would have been dissolved.

[Poetic Justice]

How did they end up in administration? Basic economics, because their costs exceeded their revenue. Yes they shut down several other entities as well, for the same reasons. Then they got back to their core business, & a whole bunch of staff took pay cuts, until their margins were sustainable. Many other airlines throughout the world, with a little more cost discipline, managed to survive armageddon.

[Swept-Wing]

Network Pilots are Qantas Pilots.
Until your pay reflects that of Qantas Pilots, VOTE NO!

Know your worth!

[Poetic Justice]

Last time I looked, no one at Network went through Australia's most competitive recruitment process, spent time as an SO, waited 20 years for a command or is on the short haul EA. If you want everything on offer at short haul, why don't you join QF?

[ShandywithSugar]

Network Pilots are Qantas Pilots.
Until your pay reflects that of Qantas Pilots, VOTE NO!

Know your worth!PART A - INTRODUCTION

PART A - INTRODUCTION


1 Title
This Agreement shall be known as the Network Aviation Pilots Enterprise Agreement 2016

(the Agreement).

2 Parties

This Agreement covers:
Network Aviation Pty Limited (ACN: 082 007 350) as Trustee for the Network Trust

Trading as Network Aviation Australia (the Company); and All pilots employed by the Company.




Nope.

[The Love Doctor]

Network Pilots are Qantas Pilots.
Until your pay reflects that of Qantas Pilots, VOTE NO!

Know your worth!
Exactly!

[soseg]

Network Pilots are Qantas Pilots.
Until your pay reflects that of Qantas Pilots, VOTE NO!

Know your worth!

Are Jetstar pilots considered Qantas pilots?

What about Alliance?

[ShandywithSugar]

Last time I looked, no one at Network went through Australia's most competitive recruitment process, spent time as an SO, waited 20 years for a command or is on the short haul EA. If you want everything on offer at short haul, why don't you join QF?

Poetic Justice :ok:

[romeocharlie]

Network Pilots are Qantas Pilots.
Until your pay reflects that of Qantas Pilots, VOTE NO!

Know your worth!

Should call you the “master baiter” with a lure that good.

[HEALY]

Are Jetstar pilots considered Qantas pilots?

What about Alliance?

A fair few new joiners to Alliance on the Ejet think they are Qantas pilots according to Linkedin 😂

[Ladloy]

Great way to show a united front. None of this division helps anyone. It's exactly what Qantas (including all its subsidiaries) want. We need to fix the worst conditions in the industry to truly develop.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Weren’t the first Qantas pilots hardened war heroes? What does that make the old school sky gods of today?

It’s a pointless debate.

Australian aviation, “The divide was manufactured by management, perfected by pilots”

[Bigredsky]

Last time I looked, no one at Network went through Australia's most competitive recruitment process, spent time as an SO, waited 20 years for a command or is on the short haul EA. If you want everything on offer at short haul, why don't you join QF?

You do realise that the worse the deal network get the more work gets transferred from SH to network. If it’s leaps and bounds “cheaper” to run a Network 320 to Darwin than a Mainline 737 or A321 then you can bet management will put a network aircraft on. Like wise for Adelaide, Hobart etc.

Remember where to direct your anger and have a think where to direct your support. A great deal
for Network = A great deal for Mainline Pilots.

[stevieboy330]

Last time I looked, no one at Network went through Australia's most competitive recruitment process, spent time as an SO, waited 20 years for a command or is on the short haul EA. If you want everything on offer at short haul, why don't you join QF?
Is that you Vanessa?

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Who’s Vanessa?

[TooManyPineapples]

Nope.

So shandy am I a Pilot in a Qantas uniform payed by NAA or a Qantas Pilot in a uniform payed by NAA. And who even cares enough at this point to think it over? 717 drivers have been ‘dressing up’ as QF pilots for more years than NAA right?

Oh and if you’re short haul QF are you really even a Qantas pilot? I mean, comon, you don’t fly ‘internationally!!!’ (Well not often)

PFFT! Back to the discussion… the customers certainly only see a Qantas pilot and at the end of the day that’s all that matters.

[aussieflyboy]

So shandy am I a Pilot in a Qantas uniform payed by NAA or a Qantas Pilot in a uniform payed by NAA. And who even cares enough at this point to think it over? 717 drivers have been ‘dressing up’ as QF pilots for more years than NAA right?

Oh and if you’re short haul QF are you really even a Qantas pilot? I mean, comon, you don’t fly ‘internationally!!!’ (Well not often)

PFFT! Back to the discussion… the customers certainly only see a Qantas pilot and at the end of the day that’s all that matters.

No they see a QantasLINK Pilot. Qantas Pilots are far superior.

[pinkpanther1]

Last time I looked, no one at Network went through Australia's most competitive recruitment process, spent time as an SO, waited 20 years for a command or is on the short haul EA. If you want everything on offer at short haul, why don't you join QF?

Hmmmm neither did the TAA guys, they were purchased by Qantas and folded in, they didn't go through the Qantas recruitment process either. Waaaiiittt does that mean the history and core of the SH 737 operation are not Qantas pilots either? Jeez this is starting to get really confusing 😕

[Icarus2001]

Management must be rolling on the floor with laughter. Heaven help us.

[soseg]

Hmmmm neither did the TAA guys, they were purchased by Qantas and folded in, they didn't go through the Qantas recruitment process either. Waaaiiittt does that mean the history and core of the SH 737 operation are not Qantas pilots either? Jeez this is starting to get really confusing 😕

Integrated in. Joined the seniority. Ability to transfer across. No beards. No “Link” on the fuselage. Same AOC. EBAs linked. Provided promotion capability and career options, not division and out sourcing.

Quite different.

[pinkpanther1]

Integrated in. Joined the seniority. Ability to transfer across. No beards. No “Link” on the fuselage. Same AOC. EBAs linked. Provided promotion capability and career options, not division and out sourcing.

Quite different.

You've missed the point I was trying to make. Poetic Justice was explaining how no other pilot in Australia is equal to a Qantas pilot because we haven't endured such 'competitive recruitment'. I'm simply pointing out that those TAA pilots who joined the company didn't either, yet there's no issue with them being referred to as Qantas pilots. I don't care who calls themselves what, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.

And dare I say if TAA had hypothetically continued and was absorbed by QF in the last decade they too would have "Link" and Beards. Let's not kid ourselves they just got lucky in a different time, under a different CEO with different ethics. It's this kind of 'Them vs us' attitude that causes the divide and conquer mentality in the first place.

[romeocharlie]

So shandy am I a Pilot in a Qantas uniform payed by NAA or a Qantas Pilot in a uniform payed by NAA. And who even cares enough at this point to think it over? 717 drivers have been ‘dressing up’ as QF pilots for more years than NAA right?

Oh and if you’re short haul QF are you really even a Qantas pilot? I mean, comon, you don’t fly ‘internationally!!!’ (Well not often)

PFFT! Back to the discussion… the customers certainly only see a Qantas pilot and at the end of the day that’s all that matters.

Well, you probably wouldn't have passed the mainline literacy test.

[KAPAC]

You've missed the point I was trying to make. Poetic Justice was explaining how no other pilot in Australia is equal to a Qantas pilot because we haven't endured such 'competitive recruitment'. I'm simply pointing out that those TAA pilots who joined the company didn't either, yet there's no issue with them being referred to as Qantas pilots. I don't care who calls themselves what, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.

And dare I say if TAA had hypothetically continued and was absorbed by QF in the last decade they too would have "Link" and Beards. Let's not kid ourselves they just got lucky in a different time, under a different CEO with different ethics. It's this kind of 'Them vs us' attitude that causes the divide and conquer mentality in the first place.

Hmm , not sure using TAA pilots as example really supports your argument ? The ones I meet usually had a degree and high intellect ( maybe too high for the job would be only criticism) .
However some of the best airline guys started of from farms and cut their teeth on tiger moths crop dusting, but different era .

[pinkpanther1]

Hmm , not sure using TAA pilots as example really supports your argument ? The ones I meet usually had a degree and high intellect ( maybe too high for the job would be only criticism) .
However some of the best airline guys started of from farms and cut their teeth on tiger moths crop dusting, but different era .

No I completely agree with you, an altogether very highly skilled and competent pilot group and I am in no way trying to cast a shadow on the TAA legacy. The insinuation on this forum though is that pilots from the subsidiaries are of a lesser quality than mainline pilots - something that I think is simply untrue. There are very skilled and capable pilots at all the QF group airlines, just as there are some slightly less competent flyers at ALL the group airlines.

[KAPAC]

No I completely agree with you, an altogether very highly skilled and competent pilot group and I am in no way trying to cast a shadow on the TAA legacy. The insinuation on this forum though is that pilots from the subsidiaries are of a lesser quality than mainline pilots - something that I think is simply untrue. There are very skilled and capable pilots at all the QF group airlines, just as there are some slightly less competent flyers at ALL the group airlines.
Agree totally .

[Bigredsky]

Integrated in. Joined the seniority. Ability to transfer across. No beards. No “Link” on the fuselage. Same AOC. EBAs linked. Provided promotion capability and career options, not division and out sourcing.

Quite different.

Jetconnect is on the same AOC

[Jester64]

The insinuation on this forum though is that pilots from the subsidiaries are of a lesser quality than mainline pilots - something that I think is simply untrue.

Spoken like a true subsidiary pilot!

You can walk into a company like NWK at the moment with next to no experience, perform a **** sim assessment and pysch test, be an ass at the interview and still get the job. Good luck doing that at a mainline assessment. Does this make one candidate higher quality than the other? Absolutely

[Bigredsky]

Spoken like a true subsidiary pilot!

You can walk into a company like NWK at the moment with next to no experience, perform a **** sim assessment and pysch test, be an ass at the interview and still get the job. Good luck doing that at a mainline assessment. Does this make one candidate higher quality than the other? Absolutely

How much are you willing to bet that everyone, let’s say in last 6 years did as you posted - a sim, pysch test and interview to secure a position at mainline? You might want to check your ranks before committing.

[Jester64]

How much are you willing to bet that everyone, let’s say in last 6 years did as you posted - a sim, pysch test and interview to secure a position at mainline? You might want to check your ranks before committing.

no ****…but my point refers to let’s say external
candidate A outscoring external candidate B by a golden mile during mainline assessment. Candidate A gets a start at mainline. Candidate B gets rejected and ends up at a cheaper subsidiary like NWK. Are you telling me mainline recruited the lesser quality candidate?

[aussieflyboy]

no ****…but my point refers to let’s say external
candidate A outscoring external candidate B by a golden mile during mainline assessment. Candidate A gets a start at mainline. Candidate B gets rejected and ends up at a cheaper subsidiary like NWK. Are you telling me mainline recruited the lesser quality candidate?

Depends on what you’re comparing. Mainline interviews are stupidly heavy on the puppy patting qualities of a candidate whereas a NAA/NJS/Alliance interview actually confirms the candidate can fly and knows how to do a visual approach. Mainline wouldn’t know if they hired a lesser quality candidate from a flying skills perspective as they don’t check anymore.

NAA Pilots are at NAA not because they flunked the Mainline interview, they are there because they wanted to live in Perth and have minimal overnights. Mainline doesn’t offer that. They need to ensure any future EA contains excellent lifestyle provisions as QF management will do everything they can to replace expensive mainline pilots with a cheaper entity.

[Bigredsky]

no ****…but my point refers to let’s say external
candidate A outscoring external candidate B by a golden mile during mainline assessment. Candidate A gets a start at mainline. Candidate B gets rejected and ends up at a cheaper subsidiary like NWK. Are you telling me mainline recruited the lesser quality candidate?

No, I’m telling you that some of your fellow pilots didn’t do any of the assessments yet hold a Pilot position at mainline.

[Jester64]

Mainline wouldn’t know if they hired a lesser quality candidate from a flying skills perspective as they don’t check anymore.

Has mainline scrapped the sim assessment for external applicants?

[aussieflyboy]

Has mainline scrapped the sim assessment for external applicants?

Generally involves flying straight and level and a single inboard engine V1 cut on a 747.

[Big Silver Spoon]

You've missed the point I was trying to make. Poetic Justice was explaining how no other pilot in Australia is equal to a Qantas pilot because we haven't endured such 'competitive recruitment'. I'm simply pointing out that those TAA pilots who joined the company didn't either, yet there's no issue with them being referred to as Qantas pilots. I don't care who calls themselves what, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.

And dare I say if TAA had hypothetically continued and was absorbed by QF in the last decade they too would have "Link" and Beards. Let's not kid ourselves they just got lucky in a different time, under a different CEO with different ethics. It's this kind of 'Them vs us' attitude that causes the divide and conquer mentality in the first place.

No not at all.

TAA/Australia and Qantas were both wholly owned airlines of the Australian government. They were merged and floated. Hence why Qantas mainline have two EBAs. When you go to shorthaul, you are on LWOP from longhaul, flying under the Australian EBA.

There are still Australian pilots rotating at the top on senior fleets living their best life. They got the better deal with the integration.

The subsidiary airlines since privatisation solely exist to reduce costs. That is it. If they weren’t cheaper or more flexible, they’d be cast adrift and another subsidiary would be acquired. There are of course some talented smart people in these operations. There are also corridor creepers and henchmen looking to further their careers in the mother ship.

The entrance requirements however are less. Some, may get the mainline ticket. Most won’t. That is just the nature of the beast.

[Ladloy]

Depends on what you’re comparing. Mainline interviews are stupidly heavy on the puppy patting qualities of a candidate whereas a NAA/NJS/Alliance interview actually confirms the candidate can fly and knows how to do a visual approach. Mainline wouldn’t know if they hired a lesser quality candidate from a flying skills perspective as they don’t check anymore.

NAA Pilots are at NAA not because they flunked the Mainline interview, they are there because they wanted to live in Perth and have minimal overnights. Mainline doesn’t offer that. They need to ensure any future EA contains excellent lifestyle provisions as QF management will do everything they can to replace expensive mainline pilots with a cheaper entity.
They still do a sim in the 76, VOR, ILS, Missed approaches

[morno]

Generally involves flying straight and level and a single inboard engine V1 cut on a 747.

Ahhh yeah no, entirely incorrect

[TooManyPineapples]

Well, you probably wouldn't have passed the mainline literacy test.

Thankyou for your insightful contribution to the discussion sir. Without people like you I might actually have some self respect. Well done sir!

[davidclarke]

Spoken like a true subsidiary pilot!

You can walk into a company like NWK at the moment with next to no experience, perform a **** sim assessment and pysch test, be an ass at the interview and still get the job. Good luck doing that at a mainline assessment. Does this make one candidate higher quality than the other? Absolutely

The skygod mentality is alive and well. I would call sick if I had to fly with you. What an attitude. You give your mainline colleagues a bad name.

I’ve known retards that have gotten into mainline, and also the subsidiaries. No recruitment process will stop that.

[josephfeatherweight]

This is why we can't have nice things.

(By "nice things", I mean pay and conditions worthy of the job of a professional pilot.)

And I mean it - as aptly displayed above, with this sort of disunity in the industry, whatever you're fighting for under whatever EBA, you're doomed to get 1/8 of F-ALL.

[dusty99]

This thread has turned into absolute filth. Some absolutely garbage humans bashing fellow pilots. It's unfortunate that these types of QF pilots exist. Pprune really brings out that 5%. 💩

[framer]

Pprune really brings out that 5%. That’s true of most social type forums. Most QF pilots have seen enough weird decision making and cocked up approaches over the years to recognise that they’re human. Most QF pilots are top blokes, just like every other corner of Australian life. Do all Airlines have equally skilled and professional pilots? Not a chance, that would be extremely unlikely, it would be as likely as all football teams being equally skilled. They have different owners ( executive management) coaches ( Instructor pilots) , training facilities ( training facilities) and talent pools to draw from, and most importantly, cultures. The football teams don’t always stay at the bottom of the table either, they can rise to the top of the league or they can be relegated. Most teams do know how to play the game though, and most of the time they avoid own-goals.

[Bigredsky]

Have I had a knock to the head and woken on April 1st?

Parking - the issue with parking is because of Networks growth. You should be parking in Network HQ and catching a bus over. The carpark can only take so many Mazda 3s.
Encroaching on SH routes - too late. Isn't that what you all wanted? Bali?
Overnighting at Mines - that's your job. Mine flying , not RPT.

All too good to grab the great fast promotions and rapid growth with a **** eba and now want to start fixing it. The horse has bolted.

It is good to see though Hudsons as the new Network cafe of choice though , we can speak freely there!

Lol, thought “parking” was the staff car park. Hahahaha. Jeez I hope you are not a captain.

[VHOED191006]

This thread has turned into absolute filth. Some absolutely garbage humans bashing fellow pilots. It's unfortunate that these types of QF pilots exist. Pprune really brings out that 5%. 💩
That's why I barely go on here anymore. It's all turned into doom and gloom.

[unobtanium]

This thread has turned into absolute filth. Some absolutely garbage humans bashing fellow pilots. It's unfortunate that these types of QF pilots exist. Pprune really brings out that 5%. 💩

the bashing's started with pilot's accepting lower pay and condition's to undercut other's put there jobs at risk take over there routes now they want equal pay and condition's and cry when they dont get support from the very people they spat on?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/526x526/binchicken_f4ae440d9a8af482c266b37aac41aa5c4b82ef38.jpg
new NAA pilot sock's

[davidclarke]

the bashing's started with pilot's accepting lower pay and condition's to undercut other's put there jobs at risk take over there routes now they want equal pay and condition's and cry when they dont get support from the very people they spat on?

new NAA pilot sock's

What were ‘Those’ pilot meant to do? Take a job at Coles and stick it to them? The fight is with the C-suite not your fellow pilots. You can’t ridicule a pilot for taking a job to put food on the table.

[dive and drive]

What part of "a victory for the Network pilots is a victory for all the Qantas Group pilots" is so difficult to understand? :ugh:

Unbelievable

[ddrwk]

While some of the comments here have gone too far, they are likely driven by a resentment amongst mainline pilots that has built up since Jetstar was first created.

Many see promotional timeframes being blown out, at least in part, by the expansion of subsidiary flying into networks previously operated by mainline.

Some also see it as ironic that fast promotion amongst subsidiaries is now being followed up by demands for equivalence of pay and conditions with mainline, where progression is significantly slower.

I am not commenting on the rightness or wrongness of this attitude, however it would be naive to ignore the fact that many hold this view.

[junior.VH-LFA]

So is the only mainline approved career option that if you don't get a job at mainline or mainline isn't hiring for an extended period of time that you're just not allowed apply to work anywhere else in the group and keep flying in GA until they hire again?

Nothing negative is going to happen to mainline pilots if Network gets improved terms and conditions, surely it would be good for the entire group?

[soseg]

NAA Pilots are at NAA not because they flunked the Mainline interview, they are there because they wanted to live in Perth and have minimal overnights.

Some are there because they want to live in Perth. I know plenty who either didn’t get a QF interview or didn’t get through it.

Let’s hope we see a no vote and the conditions there improve for those who for whatever reason don’t have another viable option. Anyone here who said “I’ll vote yes because it works for me” is naive and selfish. The conditions are **** and we are in the biggest pilot supply shortage I’ve ever seen. They’re hiring sub 1000 hr pilots with only VFR time and rumoured that some don’t have ATPL theory done. That is desperation. Use the current situation to gain the biggest win you can because chances are you won’t have this opportunity again. Do it for the crew who do have 25 years left in them and don’t have their mortgages paid off.

Anyone who votes yes is suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

[framer]

Nothing negative is going to happen to mainline pilots if Network gets improved terms and conditions, surely it would be good for the entire group?
100% correct.
Command progression and overall job security improves for Mainline pilots as subsidiaries conditions improve and the opposite is true. If you are Mainline you really should be in full support of the Network pilots if only to feather your own nest.
​​​​​​​You could react to that statement by turning around and looking back at ‘what could have been’ but that achieves nothing but poor mental health and an abrasive personality.

[dejapoo]

the bashing's started with pilot's accepting lower pay and condition's to undercut other's put there jobs at risk take over there routes now they want equal pay and condition's and cry when they dont get support from the very people they spat on?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/526x526/binchicken_f4ae440d9a8af482c266b37aac41aa5c4b82ef38.jpg
new NAA pilot sock's

ENOUGH ALREADY! No wonder you can't even get a hello at the coffee shop! This drivel including childish socks gives mainline a terrible name. Yes I agree with the 5% retard5 comment above! Enough relishing in what's happening in their train set.

[MBA747]

Getting back to the OT rate. If Network pilots are to earn less than half of Mainline, perhaps the OT should kick in a lot earlier than 59 hours. Further, the OT rate should be at least 75% of the Mainline rate. Rest assured if OT rate is this low, one can expect a lot of OT flying costing QF peanuts while flogging the pilots.

[morno]

the bashing's started with pilot's accepting lower pay and condition's to undercut other's put there jobs at risk take over there routes now they want equal pay and condition's and cry when they dont get support from the very people they spat on?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/526x526/binchicken_f4ae440d9a8af482c266b37aac41aa5c4b82ef38.jpg
new NAA pilot sock's

You sir, are the epitome of immaturity and ignorance.

If you are so stupid as to not recognise that the better the deal that NAA pilots get, the better the deal that you will get in mainline, then you deserve to be sitting there with no promotions and job security, and lose even more flying to subsidiaries.

[Mr Mossberg]

This thread is an absolute balltearer. Keep up the awesome work :D

[walesregent]

This thread is an absolute balltearer. Keep up the awesome work :D

Yep, time to wrap it up. I’m wondering if someone’s hitting a KPI for derailing threads like these.

[TooManyPineapples]

Some are there because they want to live in Perth. I know plenty who either didn’t get a QF interview or didn’t get through it.

Let’s hope we see a no vote and the conditions there improve for those who for whatever reason don’t have another viable option. Anyone here who said “I’ll vote yes because it works for me” is naive and selfish. The conditions are **** and we are in the biggest pilot supply shortage I’ve ever seen. They’re hiring sub 1000 hr pilots with only VFR time and rumoured that some don’t have ATPL theory done. That is desperation. Use the current situation to gain the biggest win you can because chances are you won’t have this opportunity again. Do it for the crew who do have 25 years left in them and don’t have their mortgages paid off.

Anyone who votes yes is suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

So that being your assessment of the status quo, how do you see a no vote playing out? Will the company come back to the table or apply for IB? Because regardless of pilots mental state it’s a game.

Call it mate. I say a no votes goes to IB. From there I don’t see us winning as fairwork will not want to give a particularly favourable result as they can’t be seen as the preferred option for all EBA’s to be negotiated. Additionally I don’t believe they will place much weight on supply and demand as a company can, without application or request, pay more than their EBA anytime they want right? I mean, if they can’t attract crew it’s sign on bonuses. If they can’t retain crew it’s retention bonuses. We’ve seen this at QF group entities before. Nothing new there.

How do you see this playing out? To say a yes vote is naive is suggests people aren’t aware of the game. That’s simply not true, some are naive, others are doing the math. I would retort you could be naive to not consider that yes might lead to the best result for the pilots. The result from the vote will be out today or tomorrow so I guess we’ll see.

[Lapon]

So that being your assessment of the status quo, how do you see a no vote playing out? Will the company come back to the table or apply for IB? Because regardless of pilots mental state it’s a game.

Call it mate. I say a no votes goes to IB. From there I don’t see us winning as fairwork will not want to give a particularly favourable result as they can’t be seen as the preferred option for all EBA’s to be negotiated. Additionally I don’t believe they will place much weight on supply and demand as a company can, without application or request, pay more than their EBA anytime they want right? I mean, if they can’t attract crew it’s sign on bonuses. If they can’t retain crew it’s retention bonuses. We’ve seen this at QF group entities before. Nothing new there.

How do you see this playing out? To say a yes vote is naive is suggests people aren’t aware of the game. That’s simply not true, some are naive, others are doing the math. I would retort you could be naive to not consider that yes might lead to the best result for the pilots. The result from the vote will be out today or tomorrow so I guess we’ll see.

I not overly familiar with IB myself, but I would say the company/Qantas have more to lose than Network pilots.

If the company were perceived to get thier way the pilots end up on a comparatively crappy deal so arguably the status quo. If the pilots are perceived to get thier way watch the flood gates open with every other EBA in the group come the time.
If I was Qantas I would be wanting to avoid that at all costs, even if it means ceding some ground on this one.

[cLeArIcE]

So you think Im ****ting on people because I dont mind the new EA? - ............

Okay perhaps I was a little harsh in what I said and it was uncalled for and I apologise. It wasn't so much a personal attack at you but I get highly frustrated (not an excuse and again I apologise) at the constant whinging about (insert comments about duty travel in economy, hotels, rosters, life style, money etc etc) yet some pilots are not willing to do anything about it.
I can't recall a time in recent history where we're in a better position to win back some of the terms and conditions ripped away from us. Network is critical to this. We bring the bottom up we bring everybody up. We have a chance to bend over these Qantas IR ***** for the first time but our biggest enemy is ourselves. People are so used to Getting nothing that when they get the smallest win they think it's the earth.

[The Love Doctor]

We have a chance to bend over these Qantas IR ***** for the first time .

Do it Network! All the money you save Qantas by settling for less will just go in some twit executives pocket. Just remember that

[WaterWatcher]

Hear it’s a NO. Great result, stay strong out west.

[soseg]

54% No

[goose1]

Is that the result of the vote?

[FN4567]

Appreciate the apology. I just cant walk away from $50+K per year.

[framer]

If 54% no is the vote then that puts Qantas in an interesting position. If they were contemplating IB then they’ll have to think again. There is significant risk involved with IB as another poster pointed out and at 54% they know it will only take a couple of amended clauses to get it over the line, especially after another two months of bargaining fatigue. My bet is that Qantas will roll over on one more issue and put it back to the vote in early Feb.

[soseg]

Appreciate the apology. I just cant walk away from $50+K per year.

Are you a Netlink captain?

[LostontheLOC]

Appreciate the apology. I just cant walk away from $50+K per year.
You won't be getting 50k a year there champ, nor will you have any protection or greater earning potential.

Great result for the guys at network, hopefully the other 46% come around and appreciate the good decision.

[onezeroonethree]

For the yes voters, just remember, on what they just offered you, an a320 captain will still earn less than a 737 FO. And that’s on their expired SH EBA. It’ll only go up when they come to an agreement.

Don’t get lured in by this pathetic FIFO bonus.

The 737 pilots two months ago got paid their bonus. FOs I speak to got about 28k and Captains I’ve heard quoted over 45k.

You ain’t close to being on the same playing field.

[TooManyPineapples]

You won't be getting 50k a year there champ, nor will you have any protection or greater earning potential.

Great result for the guys at network, hopefully the other 46% come around and appreciate the good decision.

Care to put up some figures there champ? Because the pay rise for some crew is (edit was)approximately 50k. That’s base and FIFO allowance.

Current 5 year captain A320 approximately 206k

Proposed 10 year captain (I don’t have the document in front of me so don’t bite my head off if I’m out by a bit) 246k at commencement. Add on FIFO allowance for 253k approx.

47k pay rise.

Did I read the document incorrectly?

[LostontheLOC]

For the yes voters, just remember, on what they just offered you, an a320 captain will still earn less than a 737 FO. And that’s on their expired SH EBA. It’ll only go up when they come to an agreement.

Don’t get lured in by this pathetic FIFO bonus.

The 737 pilots two months ago got paid their bonus. FOs I speak to got about 28k and Captains I’ve heard quoted over 45k.

You ain’t close to being on the same playing field.

Just to add to this, captain's will be getting paid less than a level 2 FO at Jetstar. I cannot stress enough the 54% saved the other 46%.

​​

[framer]

Ok...in a nutshell,
A319/320 FOs under 3 years will get 146,735 pa
A319/320 Captains over 10 years get 253,845 pa
There is no DTA, and OT is from 59 hours at 94/154 respectively.
There are yearly increment increases.

​​​​​​​on what they just offered you, an a320 captain will still earn less than a 737 FO.

For an outsider these two statements seem incongruous.
I am wondering if the poster comparing the 737 F/O salary to the proposed Capt salary is forgetting the disparity in the hours worked per roster. To help the outsiders like myself understand it would be useful to know the year 1 Captains proposed salary at Network and also how many hours per month a Network Captain can expect to work. A good comparison would be a calculation based on both pilots flying 65 hours because it is a moderate roster and will include incentive pay for both pilots. I guess what I am asking for is the proposed Y1 Capt salary gross earnings if they flew 13 65hour rosters in order to see if there is any truth to the assertion that a 737 f/o would earn more than a Network Captain.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

For an outsider these two statements seem incongruous.
I am wondering if the poster comparing the 737 F/O salary to the proposed Capt salary is forgetting the disparity in the hours worked per roster. To help the outsiders like myself understand it would be useful to know the year 1 Captains proposed salary at Network and also how many hours per month a Network Captain can expect to work. A good comparison would be a calculation based on both pilots flying 65 hours because it is a moderate roster and will include incentive pay for both pilots. I guess what I am asking for is the proposed Y1 Capt salary gross earnings if they flew 13 65hour rosters in order to see if there is any truth to the assertion that a 737 f/o would earn more than a Network Captain.

That’s basically semantics, and I imaging the original poster wasn’t being too literal when comparing NAA Capt vs QF FO. The point is, the base pay is **** and so is the over all deal. Good work to the ones not distracted by the shiny things.

[DirectAnywhere]

As an outsider, those “overtime” rates seem extraordinarily low.

Assuming 28 day rosters, 59 hours a roster minimum, at 253/146k base, there is an implied hourly rate for Captains of $330 and FOs of $191.

Why the hell is any additional flying over 59 hours being offered at anything less than those rates?

This agreement seems to offer less than half the base rate for any additional flying. Am I missing something here?

154/hr and 94/hr for Capts and FOs is an insult.

[framer]

That’s basically semantics
It’s not semantics to compare apples with apples. I am behind the Network pilots 100% and trying to build an accurate picture. The reason I chose 65 hrs is because I thought it was ‘moderate’ in that the 737 pilots will be doing more than that and I suspect ( happy to be shown wrong) that the Network pilots will be doing less than the mainline pilots. Comparing a gross salary achieved for the same hours of work is about as reasonable as it gets.
​​​​​​​I imaging the original poster wasn’t being too literal when comparing NAA Capt vs QF FO.
Well this is a conversation that can be distilled into literal facts and figures to some degree so why not do that? People are in the process of making serious decisions and statements like that do have an impact however small. I read the statement that ​​​​​​​an a320 captain will still earn less than a 737 FO. as meaning an a320 Captain will earn less than a 737 FO.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

It’s not semantics to compare apples with apples. I am behind the Network pilots 100% and trying to build an accurate picture. The reason I chose 65 hrs is because I thought it was ‘moderate’ in that the 737 pilots will be doing more than that and I suspect ( happy to be shown wrong) that the Network pilots will be doing less than the mainline pilots. Comparing a gross salary achieved for the same hours of work is about as reasonable as it gets.

Well this is a conversation that can be distilled into literal facts and figures to some degree so why not do that? People are in the process of making serious decisions and statements like that do have an impact however small. I read the statement that as meaning an a320 Captain will earn less than a 737 FO.

The point is, no narrow body jet Captain should be earning anywhere near another borrow body jet FO. The fact that the comparison (even if not accurate to the dollar) is even being entertained is a sign of how crappy the offer is. Throw in the current pilot supply factor and the complete lack of options available to QF and we’re looking at a deal that fall well short of the mark, and that’s before you consider the rest of the agreement on offer. What lifestyle cost are we willing to absorb in order to achieve a salary we should be getting anyway?

To the 46%, I’d say stop being so eager to kick own goals, back yourself, you might just get somewhere.

[framer]

Ok cool, I get what you are saying, I was just trying to nail it down and create some clarity but maybe now is not the time for an outsider to be getting those details. All the people who have voting rights will know and that’s what matters. Have a good one.

[walesregent]

As an outsider, those “overtime” rates seem extraordinarily low.

Assuming 28 day rosters, 59 hours a roster minimum, at 253/146k base, there is an implied hourly rate for Captains of $330 and FOs of $191.

Why the hell is any additional flying over 59 hours being offered at anything less than those rates?

This agreement seems to offer less than half the base rate for any additional flying. Am I missing something here?

154/hr and 94/hr for Capts and FOs is an insult.

you aren’t missing anything- the overtime rate is one of the main problems with this proposal. It’s almost like the company has plans afoot to ratchet up flying and don’t want to pay for it. Whatever lifestyle exists is most threatened by the overtime rate.

[DirectAnywhere]

you aren’t missing anything- the overtime rate is one of the main problems with this proposal. It’s almost like the company has plans afoot to ratchet up flying and don’t want to pay for it. Whatever lifestyle exists is most threatened by the overtime rate.

$154 per hour (stick), of which the ATO will take half, isn’t worth getting out of bed for. Fk that.

Keep going.

[MikeHatter732]

$154 per hour (stick), of which the ATO will take half, isn’t worth getting out of bed for. Fk that.

Keep going.
Yeah that's a disgrace, Dash 8 skippers get more than that.

Keep fighting lads, I know most of us are behind you 110%!!

[TooManyPineapples]

Just to add to this, captain's will be getting paid less than a level 2 FO at Jetstar. I cannot stress enough the 54% saved the other 46%.

​​

What figures are you using there? The unsubstantiated bragging of a JQ FO down the pub, or the JQ EBA?

My mates at JQ indicate they are currently taking home around 190-200k and that was from a level 3. According to them there’s been an enormous amount of day off payments paid the last 12 months, so to achieve those figure they must GIVE UP days off. They don’t get them back, gone.

The new Capt A320 rate NAA tops out at 246 plus 7, or around 252k. You statement is wrong

Are you comparing JQ A320 pub rate to F100 Capt rate possibly? Please explain.

[Chronic Snoozer]

154/hr and 94/hr for Capts and FOs

That, is a trap door.

[ShandywithSugar]

ddrwk :D

You're used to lowering your eyes to read the FMA on takeoff , maybe emulate the JQ agreement.

46% want to grab their cash and hand in their notice - more than 7 A320 drivers just waiting to drop plus more who've got start dates.

How much longer until jets are parked? ( see what I did there :ok: )

I'd be throwing the idea the A319s will be going to SH.

[Jester64]

46% want to grab their cash and hand in their notice

46% who want to make a quick dash for cash and f*** over the rest that want to stay? you must be kidding

[YeahNup]

The point is, no narrow body jet Captain should be earning anywhere near another borrow body jet FO. The fact that the comparison (even if not accurate to the dollar) is even being entertained is a sign of how crappy the offer is. Throw in the current pilot supply factor and the complete lack of options available to QF and we’re looking at a deal that fall well short of the mark, and that’s before you consider the rest of the agreement on offer. What lifestyle cost are we willing to absorb in order to achieve a salary we should be getting anyway?

To the 46%, I’d say stop being so eager to kick own goals, back yourself, you might just get somewhere.

All of your posts and statements are broad and rhetorical without any factual backup. If you really want to make a difference and prove how crappy the deal is, why don't you post actual figures and comparisons to substantiate your rhetoric?

[ShandywithSugar]

46% who want to make a quick dash for cash and f*** over the rest that want to stay? you must be kidding

No joke Jetster. No threat of outsourcing , should be No's all the way.

[Slippery_Pete]

Congratulations to the 54% who had some self respect.

$154 or $94/hour is an absolute slap in the face. Didn’t QF make $2.5b profit? The board just tried to give themselves a 40% pay rise.

And they want you to get up at 3am for $94/hr?

Yeah - nah.

[ExtraShot]

Shandy has a point…

They haven’t threatened you with taking the jets away and giving them to another subsidiary, have they? Like they’ve done with everyone else.

That overtime rate is a disgrace, and as others have said, it’s obvious what will happen to you if you let it slide. The more you work, the cheaper per hour you’ll become for them. It should be the opposite.

Keep going. What, or else they’re going to threaten to give the 319s to RACWA to fly?

[Jester64]

What, or else they’re going to threaten to give the 319s to RACWA to fly?

Already happening no?

[MBA747]

Ok...in a nutshell,
A319/320 FOs under 3 years will get 146,735 pa
A319/320 Captains over 10 years get 253,845 pa
There is no DTA, and OT is from 59 hours at 94/154 respectively.
There are yearly increment increases.

What does that mean? Does it mean one has to be a Network Capt. for 10 years to receive $253K or does it mean a Capt. with 10 years experience, on joining Network will receive 253K?

What does a First Year A320 Capt. with Network receive provided he had previous command experience on type?

In any other industry OT is normally paid at 1.5 the normal, yet QF are offering an amount far below the normal rate for flying over 59 hours. Absolute disgrace, it only suggests that they intend to work the pilots to their maximum and would be less costly, than to promote from within. In other words the F100 pilots would have to wait longer to progress.

[ShandywithSugar]

Already happening no? :p please, its still early here in UAE , too good.

Will be a fight in the Octagon between Toowoomba and Jandakot.

[soseg]

For an outsider these two statements seem incongruous.
I am wondering if the poster comparing the 737 F/O salary to the proposed Capt salary is forgetting the disparity in the hours worked per roster. To help the outsiders like myself understand it would be useful to know the year 1 Captains proposed salary at Network and also how many hours per month a Network Captain can expect to work. A good comparison would be a calculation based on both pilots flying 65 hours because it is a moderate roster and will include incentive pay for both pilots. I guess what I am asking for is the proposed Y1 Capt salary gross earnings if they flew 13 65hour rosters in order to see if there is any truth to the assertion that a 737 f/o would earn more than a Network Captain.

Youd need to compare time away from home, early starts, duty times as Netlink do day waits, etc. it gets complicated. Regardless, plenty 737 FOs this year will go north of 250 without trying

[soseg]

you aren’t missing anything- the overtime rate is one of the main problems with this proposal. It’s almost like the company has plans afoot to ratchet up flying and don’t want to pay for it. Whatever lifestyle exists is most threatened by the overtime rate.

This is spot on. Netlink pilots can now expect to finally go into OT, however it’ll be at exploited rates.

But their managements email stated their operations are unique. Can’t be seen implying it’s the same job as mainline with those new pesky laws coming into play.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

All of your posts and statements are broad and rhetorical without any factual backup. If you really want to make a difference and prove how crappy the deal is, why don't you post actual figures and comparisons to substantiate your rhetoric?

If you like the deal, good for you. Would you care to elaborate on what’s good about it?

[framer]

Youd need to compare time away from home, early starts, duty times as Netlink do day waits, etc. it gets complicated. Regardless, plenty 737 FOs this year will go north of 250 without trying
Yip understood. I thought it might create a less murky starting point as a way of thinking about it ( comparing two 65 hour rosters) but I take the point that it is difficult to compare the two sets of earnings with day waits etc.

[YeahNup]

Gordon, I haven't given my thoughts on the deal one way or another.

What I have done is ask you for a reasoned and fact-based argument rather than continued rhetoric and subjective statements.

But as one would expect, you obfuscate and attempt to deflect the question rather than answer it with a reasoned, objective and fact-based argument. So again, I ask if you really want to make a difference and prove how crappy the deal is, why don't you post actual figures and comparisons to substantiate your rhetoric?

[Icarus2001]

So just for some broader context.

NSW Paramedics just secured a 25% pay rise over four years.

Virgin cabin crew today secured a 15% pay rise over three years.

No means no.

[Swept-Wing]

Fix this appalling overtime rate or your ‘lifestyle job’ won’t exist for much longer.

[framer]

Does anyone here know a website for calculating ‘cost of living increases’ over a set time period for different states? I’ve had a search but can’t find anything with authority, just private companies or news articles. I ask because it wouldn’t surprise me if WA has outperformed other states financially due to being able to continue production through the pandemic and has had greater cost of living increases than the East coast making the Network pilots situation tougher than an East coast equivalent.

[The Love Doctor]

54% No
Fantastic work 54%! Stick to the b*****ds!!

[Potsie Weber]

Does anyone here know a website for calculating ‘cost of living increases’ over a set time period for different states? I’ve had a search but can’t find anything with authority, just private companies or news articles. I ask because it wouldn’t surprise me if WA has outperformed other states financially due to being able to continue production through the pandemic and has had greater cost of living increases than the East coast making the Network pilots situation tougher than an East coast equivalent.

Some info here that suggests Perth has a lower cost of living, even apart from housing, than the east coast. The report is over 12mths old now, so might have changed a bit, particularly for rental accommodation as Perth has one of the lowest vacancy rates atm, still probably cheaper than Sydney or Melbourne though?

https://www.wa.gov.au/government/publications/comparative-analysis-of-cost-of-living

[framer]

Ahhh sit on it Potsie. ( thanks for taking the time to post it though…..just wanted to say ‘sit on it’ for the first time in thirty years)
Deloitte was paid by WA treasury to create that report in order to make adverts to entice people to live in WA.
I was hoping for something a little less biased.
The website Numbeo seems to be unbiased but I’m unsure of how much data they gather.
Numbeo would suggest that Perth and Melbourne are on par for cost of living behind only Sydney.

[NaFenn]

What does that mean? Does it mean one has to be a Network Capt. for 10 years to receive $253K or does it mean a Capt. with 10 years experience, on joining Network will receive 253K?
Someone would have to be a captain with 10 years of service at Network to recieve $253K. As an example, 9 years as an FO and 1 year as a Captain = 10 Year Captain Pay, it doesn't reset when someone upgrades, however there is no recognition of prior experience in the pay structure.

What does a First Year A320 Capt. with Network receive provided he had previous command experience on type?
Assuming a direct entry Captain, Year 1 Pay

[AviatoR21]

Yes vote imminent after significant progress in talks. Substituting FIFO allowance for DHA. Yay what a win!

[aussieflyboy]

Shows the benefit of never voting yes for option 1.

NJS Pilots have been paid more then NAA Pilots for a very long time. Once this agreement gets through there will be NAA line pilots on over 24% more then NJS Pilots!

[MBA747]

The NAA pilots have done well and good on them. Has the OT rate improved? what was offered was pathetic.

[airdualbleedfault]

The O/T rate at NJS 146 was circa 180/hr, that was 25 years ago so yeah, 154 is taking the pi55 a bit. That said the base at NJS (pre QF takeover) was always down amongst the lowest in Oz and the O/T kicked in at 75 hours.

[walesregent]

The NAA pilots have done well and good on them. Has the OT rate improved? what was offered was pathetic.

Nope. DHA is part of their no cost change policy so the Wild West bonus is going and there’s nothing extra to fix the appalling OT rate.

[meatbomb01]

That OT rate is offensive. Mate at Alliance over the road was telling me skippers are on $335 per hour and FO’s are on $210 per hour over 57 hours on F100. What network are offering particularly considering 320/319 is pathetic.

1,000% would be voting NO until you were at least on par with that.

future proof this damn thing!

[MBA747]

So.
$253K for a Capt. over 10 years of service on a 319/320 is not great.
1. What is the salary for a Capt. F100 on Year1?
2. What about BOC operations, any change on early starts after a DO?
3. Can pilots refuse to fly overtime without retaliation? OT rate should be at least the equivalent of the normal rate. If Alliance are paying what is stated above. That should be the very minimum.

This is the first time in 40 years where there is a genuine shortage of experienced pilots, so don't give in easily. Make them pay for what you are entitled to. F100 Capt can obtain DEC on to 319/320 and 319/320 Capt can obtain DEC on 787. They took advantage over COVID, time for payback.

[walesregent]

So.
$253K for a Capt. over 10 years of service on a 319/320 is not great.
1. What is the salary for a Capt. F100 on Year1?
2. What about BOC operations, any change on early starts after a DO?
3. Can pilots refuse to fly overtime without retaliation? OT rate should be at least the equivalent of the normal rate. If Alliance are paying what is stated above. That should be the very minimum.

This is the first time in 40 years where there is a genuine shortage of experienced pilots, so don't give in easily. Make them pay for what you are entitled to. F100 Capt can obtain DEC on to 319/320 and 319/320 Capt can obtain DEC on 787. They took advantage over COVID, time for payback.

They haven’t released the new proposal but there is no indication of any other changes, so points one and two will be the same as before (don’t have the deal in front of me). On point three, they’ll call it something other than overtime, so no refusal possible, unless calling sick/fatigued.

They are using fear quite effectively because they are introducing the same deal for the third time and reasonably expect it to go from 90% no to 50.1% yes. Plenty of propaganda has come from minor union reps and nothing negative can really come from any union comms after they’ve endorsed the deal for vote, so the thumb is pretty heavy on the scales. I really hope people open their eyes to what they are signing themselves up for. This is perhaps a once in a lifetime chance and people tend not to forgive themselves when they let those slip through their fingers. I can’t believe people view IB as a threat and are blind to the threat of squandering this opportunity.

[Icarus2001]

Substituting FIFO allowance for DHA.

Can someone quantify those items please?

[walesregent]

Can someone quantify those items please?

FIFO allowance is ~$7000/4000 depending on rank. DHA figure TBA but you can bet it’s something like the above figures divided by the average duty hours over the year, so no difference to the company.

[Icarus2001]

So would the FIFO allowance nor attract super but DHA would?

[airdualbleedfault]

That OT rate is offensive. Mate at Alliance over the road was telling me skippers are on $335 per hour and FO’s are on $210 per hour over 57 hours on F100. What network are offering particularly considering 320/319 is pathetic.

1,000% would be voting NO until you were at least on par with that.

future proof this damn thing!
Did mate over the road tell you what their base is at Alliance? My understanding is Alliance have always had one of the lowest base pays around, high O/T is great, except when you're on leave, sick, long service, things are quiet due to training etc etc etc. Try getting a mortgage based on your "projected" O/T

[dejapoo]

Try getting a mortgage based on your "projected" O/T

I did recently with ANZ. Twice actually. Post banking royal commission, too.

[meatbomb01]

Alliance Perth base F100 Captain- $181,000 base, with $23,000 retention bonus paid fortnightly with no requirement to earn it (compared to QLD EBA)
Perth base F100 FO- $125,000 base, with $16,000 retention.

So $204k for a skipper working 57 hours every 28 days, or plenty more making decent overtime.
and $141k for an FO.

Vote NO until you at least get parity on OT otherwise you’ll be doing 90 hour rosters every roster

[The Love Doctor]

Perth base F100 Captain- $181,000 base, with $23,000 retention bonus paid fortnightly with no requirement to earn it (compared to QLD EBA)
Perth base F100 FO- $125,000 base, with $16,000 retention.

So $204k for a skipper working 57 hours every 28 days, or plenty more making decent overtime.
and $141k for an FO.

vote NO until parity with the regional competition across the road doing the exact same thing you guys do
That is very average. VOTE NO!

[Buttscratcher]

What is the Year of Service attached to that, Meatbomb?
At this stage, NAA are offering Base rate for F100 Captains under 3 years $198,446: FOs $129,226
However, after 3 years, it's Cpt. $204,420 : FOs $133,155
More on the Bus tho, but its still not so great.

[Buttscratcher]

I have the 2021 Virgin EA in front of me, and the Base is really low.
Capt. Narrow Body $280 per credit, 57.5 Minimum credits per roster
So, if there's 13 rosters a year, that's $209,300.
What am I missing here?
The stories of over $300,000 don't compute.

[Chronic Snoozer]

So less than Alliance, particularly the O/T rate, and whose EA is approaching expiry.

[MBA747]

[QUOTE=walesregent. Plenty of propaganda has come from minor union reps and nothing negative can really come from any union comms after they’ve endorsed the deal for vote, so the thumb is pretty heavy on the scales.

Please explain minor union reps. Are they NAA pilots or personnel from the union?

[YeahNup]

[QUOTE=walesregent. Plenty of propaganda has come from minor union reps, and nothing negative can really come from any union comms after they’ve endorsed the deal for vote, so the thumb is pretty heavy on the scales.

Please explain minor union reps. Are they NAA pilots or personnel from the union?

He's referring to reps who give a balanced, objective response (his name for propaganda) to a few loud-mouthed bullies who spin a lot of bullsh1t and rumour to push their own agendas. The NAA chat group has already blocked some union reps from participating as they didn't like the responses they were getting, and now one particularly bellicose individual wants to ban everybody but those who share his somewhat jaundiced thought process.

The process should be open to all regardless of your personal disposition - it's supposed to be a democratic process.

[MBA747]

Originally Posted by meatbomb01
Alliance Perth base F100 Captain- $181,000 base, with $23,000 retention bonus paid fortnightly with no requirement to earn it (compared to QLD EBA)
Perth base F100 FO- $125,000 base, with $16,000 retention.
So $204k for a skipper working 57 hours every 28 days, or plenty more making decent overtime.
and $141k for an FO.
Originally Posted by Buttscratcher
At this stage, NAA are offering Base rate for F100 Captains under 3 years $198,446: FOs $129,226
However, after 3 years, it's Cpt. $204,420 : FOs $133,155

So NAA Capt. F100 pilots being offered Approx $5500 less than present Alliance F100 Capt. and Alliance EBA will need to be renegotiated soon. Amounting to an even greater disparity.

What is the salary for NAA 319/320 Captains under 3 years?

[onezeroonethree]

Did mate over the road tell you what their base is at Alliance? My understanding is Alliance have always had one of the lowest base pays around, high O/T is great, except when you're on leave, sick, long service, things are quiet due to training etc etc etc. Try getting a mortgage based on your "projected" O/T

My bank took the $100,000 in overtime I made for my mortgage. Plenty of other banks I looked at accepted it too.

FWIW I’m a 737 FO.

Enjoy working 90 hour rosters on McDonalds wages. Netlink is about to get very very busy if this gets voted up.

[neville_nobody]

I have the 2021 Virgin EA in front of me, and the Base is really low.
Capt. Narrow Body $280 per credit, 57.5 Minimum credits per roster
So, if there's 13 rosters a year, that's $209,300.
What am I missing here?
The stories of over $300,000 don't compute.


Virgin and Jetstar EAs pay well for working days off. That’s how people are cracking 300k.

[meatbomb01]

What is the Year of Service attached to that, Meatbomb?
At this stage, NAA are offering Base rate for F100 Captains under 3 years $198,446: FOs $129,226
However, after 3 years, it's Cpt. $204,420 : FOs $133,155
More on the Bus tho, but its still not so great.
he said there’s no year of service attachment to that which seems weird? Don’t think they have any pay increase for length of service so everyone’s paid the same?

either way; network should be miles in front particularly on the airbus which it just doesn’t sound like it is.

FUTURE PROOF IT!

[ShandywithSugar]

Once it's signed up the punishment will begin.

[Mr Google Head]

Virgin and Jetstar EAs pay well for working days off. That’s how people are cracking 300k.

A union roadshow showed statistics of normal annual "credits" at Virgin being 1000-1300. Don't confuse credit hours with flight hours. There's plenty of credits to be earnt on top of flight hours. Not all necessarily through working days off.

[DirectAnywhere]

You just know that with that overtime rate you’re going to be working 90 hours a month. You’re going to get absolutely smashed with flying, with all the negative implications on lifestyle and health that come with it.

An extra 30 hours above 59 is going to net you about $2200 for Captains and $1500 for FOs (post tax).

Is it worth working probably an extra 5-6 days a month for that kind of money? Try getting a tradie for 300 a day cash and see how you go.

I know what my answer would be on this package.

The overtime issue alone should be enough to see this deal dead in the water in perpetuity. Additional flying is paid at the hourly rate below 59 hours or it doesn’t happen.

[davidclarke]

Ok so the annual salary offer for a 320 capt is $218,674.


59 hours x 13 roster periods Per year equals 767 hours. So prior to overtime your hourly rate is $285 but once you hit overtime the rate goes BACKWARDS by 46% to $154. Can someone explain to me how this was even put to a vote?


Why would anyone take a 46% pay cut to work overtime?


This will clearly incentivise the company to make every single pilot work 80-90 hours a month because you get cheaper the more you work. How could any of the unions endorse this?

[Buttscratcher]

Absolutely correct, DC, the deal was garbage.
The last vote was NO 54%......go figure

[DirectAnywhere]

My last comment (as I keep repeating myself), but I still can’t get over that overtime rate.

For further comparison, the overtime rate is less than half what a year 1 QF SH pilot gets paid.

It’s 44% of what a year 4 pilot gets paid!!!!

How any union could endorse such a deal is beyond me. Blind Freddy can see the result of accepting it. Shouldn’t even be legal - but of course it is.

Just incredible.

[soseg]

They only need to convince 7 more pilots to vote yes.

They’re doomed.

You got Mr “but it works for me” over there selling out his colleagues.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

This will clearly incentivise the company to make every single pilot work 80-90 hours a month because you get cheaper the more you work. How could any of the unions endorse this?

And think of it this way, with captains getting flogged on max hours, the flying is being done by less crew, therefore fewer promotions are required so FOs will miss out on commands, all the while getting flogged themselves.

46% of you guys want that?

[The Love Doctor]

To the 46%....this is your one off chance to get it right once and for all. Don't blow it!

[RealSatoshi]

My last comment (as I keep repeating myself), but I still can’t get over that overtime rate.

For further comparison, the overtime rate is less than half what a year 1 QF SH pilot gets paid.

It’s 44% of what a year 4 pilot gets paid!!!!

How any union could endorse such a deal is beyond me. Blind Freddy can see the result of accepting it. Shouldn’t even be legal - but of course it is.

Just incredible.
Absolutely DISGRACEFUL that this would even make it onto the table and worse so that 46% decided to endorse it, not to mention AIPA themselves :oh:

It is the Biggest, Fattest, Filthiest middle finger to our Profession as we know it - It is NOT an Overtime rate, it is a Halftime rate (*shouting* WAKE UP!!!)

[Buttscratcher]

...and the AFAP, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory once more.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The discussion has, rightly so, revolved around pay and OT rates but what other nasties are in there? Protections around RDOs, limit on consecutive reserves, duty changes, duty extensions, duty travel class, how about credit for sim hours, all that stuff where they can really fvck your life up and/or demand extra work with no compensation.

[Beer Baron]

I see people referring to the possibility of working 90 hours a roster. Is that possible at Network without working on Days Off?

[framer]

I see people referring to the possibility of working 90 hours a roster. Is that possible at Network without working on Days Off?
No idea but while we’re talking about protections, if you have back of the clock flying as a possibility that needs to be protected both before and after the duty. If you don’t have good protections around the BOC flying you can be ill with fatigue and only flying 50 hours a month. There has to be a way of letting your circadian rhythm sort itself out in the days after the duty as opposed to having a couple of days off and then starting on an early.

[walesregent]

I see people referring to the possibility of working 90 hours a roster. Is that possible at Network without working on Days Off?

If east coast flying becomes a thing then yes. If just about everything stayed the same but pay went up to what is being proposed then this deal would suck a lot less, however there is nothing to guarantee that other them trolling us about our ‘unique lifestyle operation’. If the company tries to ramp up flying which (despite a lot of barriers including operational competence) they seem to have plans to, people could find themselves being rostered 80-90 hours. You can bet that Qantas won’t be making less than they do off short haul if that happens, too.

[MBA747]

After reading all these posts. I can't believe that after an EBA that has expired for three years, QF are proposing this rubbish. Prior to 1989 when the AFAP was at it's zenith, this proposal would never have even been considered to be put to a vote. However here we are with this document being floated.
Not knowing other conditions of the proposal but just considering the monetary aspects, the vote should have been a clear NO. Alliance are paying a retention bonus, not because they want to, it's because they have to. For NAA pilots to accept a salary than what is currently being paid to Alliance pilots is extremely foolish. Remember Alliance pilots EBA is soon to be re negotiated and they won't be accepting current conditions.
At present for every three NAA Captains flying 90 hours means one less Capt. is needed. The costs for the OT is significantly less than the costs of a new captain. Therefore FO promotion will be delayed, at great savings to the company.
Regarding BOC operations, this is demanding. Flying in to a rising sun is tiring to say the least, not great for your health long term. Try and put some conditions on rostering these flights.
Hope you guys/gals win, we are all rooting for you.

[SandyPalms]

Get angry Guys. QF management are laughing at you. Treat them with the same respect they are showing you by spitting in Their face. **** em! Let the war begin. I’m in from my side. Mount up.

[framer]

Regarding BOC operations, this is demanding. Flying in to a rising sun is tiring to say the least, not great for your health long term. Try and put some conditions on rostering these flights.
Hope you guys/gals win, we are all rooting for you.
I agree with MBA but it might even be more important than what some are imagining. When considering how much BOC flying can knock you around, don’t be fooled into thinking it is similar to if you fly night freight, or if you are on a long haul roster. It is much worse if your company has the ability to insert a BOC duty into an otherwise normal domestic roster, and then just as you think you may have gotten over the last BOC , another one hits. The days off in between the BOC and the next normal duty are a complete write-off and then off you go onto the hamster wheel of doom again. In 30 years of flying rosters, this is the toughest combo of flying I have had to do and I’m very glad I don’t do it anymore. If it is a possibility, I would push for a clause requiring a rest day followed by two days off before starting on an afternoon shift, and a maximum of one BOC per month.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

46% of you f..king muppets shouldn't be in command of f..king shopping trolley!
It is beyond gobsmacking you lot don't even know your own self worth and can't even look to what other skilled and unskilled roles are paying out there. While you muppets think this is acceptable nothing will ever change in Australian aviation! Ni wonder it is a lost cause. You should all be ashamed and maybe you should go look at what the real inflation rate is. It is amazing 46% of you could even get a cpl.

[TooManyPineapples]

46% of you f..king muppets shouldn't be in command of f..king shopping trolley!
It is beyond gobsmacking you lot don't even know your own self worth and can't even look to what other skilled and unskilled roles are paying out there. While you muppets think this is acceptable nothing will ever change in Australian aviation! Ni wonder it is a lost cause. You should all be ashamed and maybe you should go look at what the real inflation rate is. It is amazing 46% of you could even get a cpl.

Wow. I bet you’re a blast to fly with with an attitude like that. A CPL? Really?

This thread is a disgrace to all of us.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Wow. I bet you’re a blast to fly with with an attitude like that. A CPL? Really?

This thread is a disgrace to all of us.


So you think after a decade or more or less on poverty wages in GA to finally get on a jet and continue to earn poverty wages is acceptable? And then vote for an agreement that is an insult and has an overtime rate less than your normal rate? We live in a time where even on 200k a year you can't even afford a pile of **** house let alone a family and yet all these genius pilots can't even see this. What f..king planet or parallel universe are you all living in??? I must be living in some delusional lala land, because clearly you and 46% can't see what I can see. You lot need to wake the f up! And go and look at what other professionals and trades are earning for a helluvalot less sacrifice than what is required to become a pilot along with the constant threat of your job due to medical loss, sim and economic black swans... You are the disgrace and you are part of the problem and you are why the industry is so cooked! I don't expect people to turn a job down, but now is the only chance pilots will have to improve their salaries. After this forget about it.

[walesregent]

So you think after a decade or more or less on poverty wages in GA to finally get on a jet and continue to earn poverty wages is acceptable? And then vote for an agreement that is an insult and has an overtime rate less than your normal rate? We live in a time where even on 200k a year you can't even afford a pile of **** house let alone a family and yet all these genius pilots can't even see this. What f..king planet or parallel universe are you all living in??? I must be living in some delusional lala land, because clearly you and 46% can't see what I can see. You lot need to wake the f up! And go and look at what other professionals and trades are earning for a helluvalot less sacrifice than what is required to become a pilot along with the constant threat of your job due to medical loss, sim and economic black swans... You are the disgrace and you are part of the problem and you are why the industry is so cooked! I don't expect people to turn a job down, but now is the only chance pilots will have to improve their salaries. After this forget about it.


People were rattled by the prospect of intractable bargaining. It was pretty standard projection- the company successfully made their biggest fear into the pilots’ biggest fear. I didn’t think so many people would fall for the company’s rhetoric, but here we are. Not many people looked at the offer and thought it was good, but they had already started mentally spending their back pay and raises and were pretty fearful of losing them if IB went ahead. They also bought the falsehood that the stop-work didn’t hurt the company so were left wondering what else might be gained by holding out.

I don’t personally fear IB, nor do I believe that this is the best deal the company would put forward but a lot of people thought we were dealing with diminishing returns with further action and mounting risk of losing it all. This didn’t come from nowhere either- union reps (I won’t say for which union, but not the one representing 80%+ of pilots) who had for months said nothing, started contacting the group talking the deal up and turning IB into some sort of bogeyman.


Fingers crossed that enough people have had some sense talked into them since because, as you said, this will mean more work for just about everyone who doesn’t leave and potentially delayed movement for those looking to stay, because they will be too valuable in their present role.

[TooManyPineapples]

So you think after a decade or more or less on poverty wages in GA to finally get on a jet and continue to earn poverty wages is acceptable? And then vote for an agreement that is an insult and has an overtime rate less than your normal rate? We live in a time where even on 200k a year you can't even afford a pile of **** house let alone a family and yet all these genius pilots can't even see this. What f..king planet or parallel universe are you all living in??? I must be living in some delusional lala land, because clearly you and 46% can't see what I can see. You lot need to wake the f up! And go and look at what other professionals and trades are earning for a helluvalot less sacrifice than what is required to become a pilot along with the constant threat of your job due to medical loss, sim and economic black swans... You are the disgrace and you are part of the problem and you are why the industry is so cooked! I don't expect people to turn a job down, but now is the only chance pilots will have to improve their salaries. After this forget about it.

I said the thread is a disgrace, not you specifically. Thanks for the personal attack, much appreciated.

Sounds like you might be happier flying somewhere else?

By the way, the EBA isn’t voted up yet. Find a way to vent that doesn’t involve personal attacks of your colleagues eh? Doesn’t do anything to sell your cause. I would tell you I agree with some of your points but I doubt you’d even care.

[cLeArIcE]

Honestly the idea that someone is a 320 captain and not getting atleast 300k with a little over time etc is just mind boggling to me. You guys are in the best position as anyone to make gains. Firstly because you have such a low starting point and secondly, it's not like QF can threaten to take away your toys and give them to someone else.
Take some value and pride in who you are and what you do. Because if we don't make some serious gains collectively as a group in the next few years (the way the industry is now), we are royally ****** to ever have a hope again.
We all have a responsibility no matter who we work for.

[Icarus2001]

It must be one of the only jobs in Australia where the overtime rate is less than the normal rate.

One would think that should raise an eyebrow at FWC.

Perhaps if overtime could be refused, then it would be a different story.

[Jester64]

Wow. I bet you’re a blast to fly with with an attitude like that. A CPL? Really?

This thread is a disgrace to all of us.

These are exactly the types I like to fly with. They call a spade a spade. I get it’s 2023 Pineapples, but someone needs to say it. Your’e known as the bin chickens now, it’s only gonna get worse for Network if this ****ty EBA gets voted up.

[neville_nobody]

Firstly because you have such a low starting point and secondly, it's not like QF can threaten to take away your toys and give them to someone else.


I would be cautious with that line of thinking. There is always a point somewhere along the line where they just shut you down and wet lease to someone else in spite of the cost. I don’t believe that large businesses are necessarily rational either. They might choose a more difficult or expensive option just to prove they can or to play the long game. The key is to know at what point they are prepared to do something stupid

[backspace]

So, what happens now. Is there another vote or more PIA, or what?

If forced into intractable bargaining would it bring same job same pay into play?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

This didn’t come from nowhere either- union reps (I won’t say for which union, but not the one representing 80%+ of pilots) who had for months said nothing, started contacting the group talking the deal up and turning IB into some sort of bogeyman.

This wouldn’t be the same union reps who actively undermined PIA by accepting call out payments for flying on days off would it?

[Chronic Snoozer]

I don’t personally fear IB, nor do I believe that this is the best deal the company would put forward but a lot of people thought we were dealing with diminishing returns with further action and mounting risk of losing it all. This didn’t come from nowhere either- union reps (I won’t say for which union, but not the one representing 80%+ of pilots) who had for months said nothing, started contacting the group talking the deal up and turning IB into some sort of bogeyman.

Can you flesh out some of the arguments that were presented or was it just general fear mongering? IB is fairly new but I don't think it is supposed to be a crowbar for employers to force employees to do anything, as long as the bargaining remains in good faith. One of the arguments (In an IB determination if it gets that far) the Full Bench would have to consider is the 'merits of the case'. Expecting employees to agree to overtime at half the rate of normal pay (without a corresponding bump in base pay and guaranteed hours) would be viewed dimly one would hope.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Can you flesh out some of the arguments that were presented or was it just general fear mongering? IB is fairly new but I don't think it is supposed to be a crowbar for employers to force employees to do anything, as long as the bargaining remains in good faith. One of the arguments (In an IB determination if it gets that far) the Full Bench would have to consider is the 'merits of the case'. Expecting employees to agree to overtime at half the rate of normal pay (without a corresponding bump in base pay and guaranteed hours) would be viewed dimly one would hope.

Exactly! Add to this, the fact that IB was used as a threat without all of the triggering actions occurring would be seen pretty poorly. PIA was a legally approved action, the threat of IB was yet another example of QF IR exerting duress in order to weaken our position. Apparently it’s still good faith bargaining, but I suggest it could be argued otherwise.

[The Love Doctor]

This wouldn’t be the same union reps who actively undermined PIA by accepting call out payments for flying on days off would it?
Whaaaat? If this is true then they should not be union reps

[Transition Layer]

Whaaaat? If this is true then they should not be union reps
I believe they were the AIPA Network reps, not AFAP, and therefore not covered by PIA and were called in to fly on those days. Between a rock and a hard place if you’re one of those guys.

[The Love Doctor]

I believe they were the AIPA Network reps, not AFAP, and therefore not covered by PIA and were called in to fly on those days. Between a rock and a hard place if you’re one of those guys.
If it was on a day off they should have the right to say no surely?

[1234fly]

Aipa reps. Alleged that 2/3 pushed the last EBA in exchange for going straight into check and training on the A320 when they arrived....

[morno]

If it was on a day off they should have the right to say no surely?

The difficulty lies in the wording of what constitutes unprotected industrial action. If those guys were normally open to accepting call ins on days off, and then all of a sudden they happen to be refusing them ironically on the day that the rest of the pilot cohort is taking PIA, I would not put it past the pack of grubs that are QF IR to make examples of them.

So lay off and keep things civil. You won’t get anywhere by going to war with each other.

[Jester64]

The difficulty lies in the wording of what constitutes unprotected industrial action. If those guys were normally open to accepting call ins on days off, and then all of a sudden they happen to be refusing them ironically on the day that the rest of the pilot cohort is taking PIA, I would not put it past the pack of grubs that are QF IR to make examples of them.

So lay off and keep things civil. You won’t get anywhere by going to war with each other.

what another crock….agree to work on a day off for some extra $ whilst your colleagues are under PIA then you are nothing but a mug. There’s no excuse for it, stop defending it.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The difficulty lies in the wording of what constitutes unprotected industrial action. If those guys were normally open to accepting call ins on days off, and then all of a sudden they happen to be refusing them ironically on the day that the rest of the pilot cohort is taking PIA, I would not put it past the pack of grubs that are QF IR to make examples of them.

So lay off and keep things civil. You won’t get anywhere by going to war with each other.

”Sorry, I normally would but I have family commitments today” is what you say.

The standard you accept…..etc

[soseg]

I would be cautious with that line of thinking. There is always a point somewhere along the line where they just shut you down and wet lease to someone else in spite of the cost. I don’t believe that large businesses are necessarily rational either. They might choose a more difficult or expensive option just to prove they can or to play the long game. The key is to know at what point they are prepared to do something stupid

In this current climate who are they going to out source to?

Stay behind your desk. You’re clearly management trying to scare the pilots.

[soseg]

The difficulty lies in the wording of what constitutes unprotected industrial action. If those guys were normally open to accepting call ins on days off, and then all of a sudden they happen to be refusing them ironically on the day that the rest of the pilot cohort is taking PIA, I would not put it past the pack of grubs that are QF IR to make examples of them.

So lay off and keep things civil. You won’t get anywhere by going to war with each other.

Just because someone in the past has offered to help, come in on RDOs and do OT doesn’t mean it’s expected of them all the time.

There is nothing they can do. A day off is a day off. There is no legal obligation in this scenario.

[morno]

I'd like to throw in a bit history. Picture this. Imagine SE Asia whereby a Qantas 30% owned entity suddenly becomes Jetstar Pacific. There's a flock of newly rated FO's suddenly employed thanks to input from a Qantas fellow who runs an employment agency. Quick commands follow suit, and once these fellow's get their command time, off to PER they go. They join Network. In the mean time, the very people who employed them head off to places like SYD under the security of Qantas seniority. Go check their profiles on Linkedin. It's all there to see.

So, some of these Network guys accepted SE Asian pay rates, then scrambled off to PER and now are whinging when they signed a contract deal that immediately undercut those who had been working in the region long before they arrived in Asia. Sounds typical Australian to me. A lost cause.

Yeeeeah very little truth to any of that

[morno]

Just because someone in the past has offered to help, come in on RDOs and do OT doesn’t mean it’s expected of them all the time.

There is nothing they can do. A day off is a day off. There is no legal obligation in this scenario.

Sure, well when you can claim to be a verified expert in industrial relations, then I’ll listen to you. In the meantime I’ll listen to the legal department of my union which is a bit more informed than some experts on pprune.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Sure, well when you can claim to be a verified expert in industrial relations, then I’ll listen to you. In the meantime I’ll listen to the legal department of my union which is a bit more informed than some experts on pprune.

I would be looking to change unions mate. Days off are yours and yours alone. Unless there is a clause in the applicable agreement that empowers the company to cancel your days off at short notice, they can’t touch you. What if you choose to go away for your days off and can’t attend work? There is insufficient popcorn available for the case where the company penalises you for that. If you’ve taken some day off payments to help make ends meet, good for you. It does not mean you waiver your rights to down time.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Furthermore, and straight from one horses mouth:

“If they are referring to ‘normal work’, the term ‘normal work’ pertains to their normally rostered work unless otherwise stated, and must be limited to their job description; that is to say, they can’t ask a pilot to wash an aeroplane unless it’s part of their agreed job description. Unrostered work (RDO) shall be undertaken at the workers’ discretion and shall not oblige such worker to do so on subsequent occasions. Common law would also require that the burden of proof lies with the company to provide compelling evidence that the workers’ intention in declining to work on a day off was done so intentionally with the purpose of engaging in industrial action.”

[RealSatoshi]

Furthermore, and straight from one horses mouth:

“If they are referring to ‘normal work’, the term ‘normal work’ pertains to their normally rostered work unless otherwise stated, and must be limited to their job description; that is to say, they can’t ask a pilot to wash an aeroplane unless it’s part of their agreed job description. Unrostered work (RDO) shall be undertaken at the workers’ discretion and shall not oblige such worker to do so on subsequent occasions. Common law would also require that the burden of proof lies with the company to provide compelling evidence that the workers’ intention in declining to work on a day off was done so intentionally with the purpose of engaging in industrial action.”
Correct :ok:

Decisions were made:
They either intentionally answered the phone or intentionally had a beer for breakfast - not rocket science after all.

[morno]

I think the point is lost on you about the point I was trying to get across anyway. You can continue the war against a few who did nothing to break any laws, and in doing so you just look foolish and disjointed like Qantas IR would love to see.

Or you can apply some common sense and realise that the effects of a couple of guys who weren’t taking PIA, choosing to work some days off, is of minimal effect to undo the work of PIA when it was being taken by so many.

Not everyone has to share your point of view, that’s why it’s called a democracy. Nor mine. But I wouldn’t go being childish and calling people out for not doing it your way when they have no legal obligation to.

[MikeHatter732]

Wow, so if AIPA was seriously sending out comms saying that choosing to not work on a designated day off is "unprotected industrial action", that really shows you their true colours. How disgusting!

[morno]

Wow, so if AIPA was seriously sending out comms saying that choosing to not work on a designated day off is "unprotected industrial action", that really shows you their true colours. How disgusting!

They most certainly did not. I can’t be bothered finding the wording, it’s pointless arguing with a bunch of pitchfork yielding idiots who want blood of those who just went to work like they were entitled to, but it was effectively along the lines of if it’s clearly different to what is perceived as being normal activity, then it’s possible that the company can perceive it as UPIA. I don’t disagree that it’d be hard to prove, but since when did Qantas IR not try on a lot of things?

[smiffysarmy]

You have to remember who actually runs AIPA

(PS……its not AIPA)

[gordonfvckingramsay]

then it’s possible that the company can perceive it as UPIA. I don’t disagree that it’d be hard to prove, but since when did Qantas IR not try on a lot of things?

QF IR has been proven to be very wide of the mark, about 1700 time in one instance. They can try what they like but fabricating a case against a pilot for enjoying a day off would be really cool to watch.

pitchfork yielding idiots who want blood of those who just went to work like they were entitled to

Don’t be a rep if you don’t want your actions scrutinised.

[morno]

QF IR has been proven to be very wide of the mark, about 1700 time in one instance. They can try what they like but fabricating a case against a pilot for enjoying a day off would be really cool to watch.

I absolutely agree. But tell me again why someone going to work when they’re entitled to should be attacked?

[DashTrash.]

My logic when it comes to pilots working RDOs is two fold.

firstly. Say an airline has a base with 20 captains and 20 FOs. If a small percentage say 5percent at anyone time are willing to come work it means collectively the entire pilot group is working harder AND the company doesn’t have to hire a 21st pilot to cover that gap. You are effectively robbing someone of a job or promotion.

secondly it reduces quality of life, blurring the lines of contactability when you are off work. This has numerous social and family impacts which goes without saying.

the other side of the fence will say an airline needs this ability. But it shouldn’t come cheaply and at the expense of poor workforce planning.

DT

[dusty99]

They most certainly did not. I can’t be bothered finding the wording, it’s pointless arguing with a bunch of pitchfork yielding idiots who want blood of those who just went to work like they were entitled to, but it was effectively along the lines of if it’s clearly different to what is perceived as being normal activity, then it’s possible that the company can perceive it as UPIA. I don’t disagree that it’d be hard to prove, but since when did Qantas IR not try on a lot of things?

AIPA is that you? 😉

[1234fly]

Sure, well when you can claim to be a verified expert in industrial relations, then I’ll listen to you. In the meantime I’ll listen to the legal department of my union which is a bit more informed than some experts on pprune.
starting to sounds like a certain snake aipa rep a network

[Beer Baron]

Aipa reps. Alleged that 2/3 pushed the last EBA in exchange for going straight into check and training on the A320 when they arrived....
What a pile of conspiracy garbage.
Tell me, what were the AFAP reps offered, they endorsed the deal too didn’t they?!?

Both unions rejected the first offer and (rightly or wrongly) endorsed the 2nd. So the issue here is not one’s choice of union. It’s a stupid pilot Vs pilot distraction.

[flyinghorseman]

It seems like the WA pilot bedwetter syndrome is still alive and well. As predicted selling themselves short.

Sad.

[aussieflyboy]

Why is the overtime rate such a big deal to the company? Surely a business shouldn’t be rostering above the overtime limit. With an appropriate number of crew you can make the overtime rate $2K an hour as it would and should be an irrelevant number.

If they bumped that up the last vote would have probably got just enough for a yes. The fact they didn’t should be a MASSIVE red flag to NAA crew.

[Icarus2001]

I agree with you to a point but this…

Secondly it reduces quality of life, blurring the lines of contactability when you are off work. This has numerous social and family impacts which goes without saying.

No blur, on an RDO do not answer any calls from work, let it go to voicemail and see what they want, simple.

[Jester64]

I absolutely agree. But tell me again why someone going to work when they’re entitled to should be attacked?

Because working on an RDO for personal gain on the very day the majority of your colleagues are giving up a days pay to engage in PIA, is a direct and detrimental impact to the intended effect of that PIA.

[morno]

Because working on an RDO for personal gain on the very day the majority of your colleagues are giving up a days pay to engage in PIA, is a direct and detrimental impact to the intended effect of that PIA.

So attack them hey? Attack them for breaking absolutely no laws, for not engaging in PIA (because they aren’t permitted to), and attack them so that you just look like a bunch of fools to everyone else?

I don’t endorse working an RDO when PIA is going on, what I do have a problem with though is attacking your colleagues. No one of your colleagues should be attacked.

[Jester64]

So attack them hey? Attack them for breaking absolutely no laws, for not engaging in PIA (because they aren’t permitted to), and attack them so that you just look like a bunch of fools to everyone else?

I don’t endorse working an RDO when PIA is going on, what I do have a problem with though is attacking your colleagues. No one of your colleagues should be attacked.

ok my bad. I should have read your last word “attacked” literally. No one should be “attacked” obviously. But calling them out on it and expressing disappointment in their actions…is that ok? That’s all that’s being done here

[morno]

No I absolutely do not think it’s acceptable. People are free to make their own decisions within the laws. Anyone who can’t respect that freedom without the need to vilify someone just because it’s not the decision they would have made, is just a turd on society.

Keep the fight for a fair EBA going, but don’t dare vilify or attack anyone. It just makes you look stupid and divided.

[Jester64]

No I absolutely do not think it’s acceptable. People are free to make their own decisions within the laws. Anyone who can’t respect that freedom without the need to vilify someone just because it’s not the decision they would have made, is just a turd on society.

Keep the fight for a fair EBA going, but don’t dare vilify or attack anyone. It just makes you look stupid and divided.

Just because it’s legal, doesn’t make it the right thing to do. There’s are thing called values and principles. If someone makes a poor (selfish) but legal choice that affects others negatively, whilst I respect that they have that freedom, I don’t respect that individual.

[Check_Thrust]

Out of curiosity is the overtime threshold of 59 hours a month really an "overtime threshold" or is it a "minimum guarantee hours" per month?

Regardless of the definition, if the hourly rate offered for each hour worked beyond the threshold is $154/hr (as per post #1101) that seems to be insultingly low.

Having a look at Qantas Short Haul EBA8 it states their minimum guarantee hours per 28 day bid period is 53.4 hours and they are paid an hourly rate above that of their annual salary divided by 696 (which approximately equals 13 x 53.4). This hourly rate isn't higher than their standard hourly rate if they consistently fly 53.4 hours per month. For a 4 year captain at short haul the hourly rate appears to be $352.50/hr.

Based on the info provided in post #1101 using the same method used to calculate the QF short haul rate but with a MGH of 59 hours (767 hours p.a. based on 13 bid periods) the rate should be at least $331/hr for a 10 year NAA A320 captain.

I apologise if I have misinterpreted any information that I have used here from the QF SH EBA8 or the offer that had been put forward to the NAA pilot group.

[Phil Errup]

No I absolutely do not think it’s acceptable. People are free to make their own decisions within the laws. Anyone who can’t respect that freedom without the need to vilify someone just because it’s not the decision they would have made, is just a turd on society.

Keep the fight for a fair EBA going, but don’t dare vilify or attack anyone. It just makes you look stupid and divided.

I really can’t get my head around the fact that you think it’s acceptable to undermine your colleagues by working on an RDO while they participate in industrial action. Possibly one of the most egomaniacal things I’ve witnessed in this industry.

Since when did we decide as a society that legality is the only consideration when it comes to making a decision if something is right or wrong. Get out of your little box.

No one is being attacked, and we have every right to express an opinion on the matter. (Albeit some more tactful than others)

You know what makes us look “stupid” and “divided” when participating in PIA………………….
yea, possibly not, you clearly aren’t capable of thinking in someone else’s shoes.

[morno]

I really can’t get my head around the fact that you think it’s acceptable to undermine your colleagues by working on an RDO while they participate in industrial action. Possibly one of the most egomaniacal things I’ve witnessed in this industry.

Since when did we decide as a society that legality is the only consideration when it comes to making a decision if something is right or wrong. Get out of your little box.

No one is being attacked, and we have every right to express an opinion on the matter. (Albeit some more tactful than others)

You know what makes us look “stupid” and “divided” when participating in PIA………………….
yea, possibly not, you clearly aren’t capable of thinking in someone else’s shoes.

Re-read what I wrote dopey. I said I don’t agree with the idea of working on a day off while others are doing PIA. If you can’t understand the rest, then there’s little point trying to explain it. :ugh:

[Jester64]

Re-read what I wrote dopey. I said I don’t agree with the idea of working on a day off while others are doing PIA. If you can’t understand the rest, then there’s little point trying to explain it. :ugh:

don’t attack morno…just read what you wrote and read what was written to you

[gordonfvckingramsay]

So attack them hey? Attack them for breaking absolutely no laws, for not engaging in PIA (because they aren’t permitted to), and attack them so that you just look like a bunch of fools to everyone else?

The concept of so-called union reps actively undermining PIA, which they were very aware they were doing, and passing it off as ‘I had to, I had no choice’ is what’s being called out here. There is a huge difference between refusing to act unlawfully and aiding and abetting the company, and for reps to be the perpetrators needs to be made freely available to the pilots. Once again, if you don’t want to be questioned, don’t be a rep.

[Chronic Snoozer]

What has re-hashing the past got to do with the EA on the table? What’s done is done. From what I can tell, up to a quarter of the AFAP membership voted the last offer up (46% YES ~ 80% AFAP membership as posted on this thread)

I’d be speaking AFAP and with the guys who think the last offer was good enough

[AviatoR21]

Why waste so much effort arguing, it’s over! They will vote yes and crumble. The fear has set in and Qantas has won….remember it went from 91-54% no vote for NOTHING. They literally need to convince 3 people to get it over the line.

[soseg]

I just saw an add for Network A320 FO.

700 hrs total time.

Desperation.

Vote no you clowns.

[Jester64]

add to that a 2.5 billion dollar profit

[1234fly]

cut the 10 year captain salary and pass it to the poor fo's/ reduce the check and training bonuses. Certain AIPA reps are to busy about what 4wd or boat they are going to spend their loyalty bonuses on then their poor colleagues it's disgusting

[YeahNup]

The concept of so-called union reps actively undermining PIA, which they were very aware they were doing, and passing it off as ‘I had to, I had no choice’ is what’s being called out here. There is a huge difference between refusing to act unlawfully and aiding and abetting the company, and for reps to be the perpetrators needs to be made freely available to the pilots. Once again, if you don’t want to be questioned, don’t be a rep.

So they should have acted illegally and opened themselves to possible legal action to keep you happy?

[YeahNup]

1234fly, there is nothing like a touch of the left-wing ideological thought process to add to the process.

What's disgusting is the slurs and allegations that Grubbs like you resort to when afforded the cloak of anonymity by this forum. Why don't you make these claims in the public domain, where you can't hide like a coward?

[1234fly]

1234fly, there is nothing like a touch of the left-wing ideological thought process to add to the process.

What's disgusting is the slurs and allegations that Grubbs like you resort to when afforded the cloak of anonymity by this forum. Why don't you make these claims in the public domain, where you can't hide like a coward?
left wing ideology or fairness? You sound like one of the 10 year network koolaid drinkers that has their eyes on the bonuses at the cost of any decency in an EBA.

[HongKongflu]

Network is recruiting hard for FO's, half don't even turn up for their interview, those that do have less than 1000hrs, some have NO TWIN time, no 2 crew time, many fail the assessment in the sim. Several Captains are already slated for mainline next year, with interviews open for internals again. Several have Middle East interviews in Jan and the Network fleet is expanding with more 319's coming and a replacement for the F100 is looming fast. WA is booming and the mining sector has a huge appetite for more flights. The pilot shortage is here now, not "coming" IT"S HERE !! and you guys are about to rollover on a **** deal right when the busiest time of the year is about to launch. There has never been a better time to say "hey we want some roster protections, proper DTA, decent accomodation and a pay scale that is better than just the award". Don't cave now guys you are holding all the cards - stand up & be counted. Keep it professional and stick together.

[1234fly]

Network is recruiting hard for FO's, half don't even turn up for their interview, those that do have less than 1000hrs, some have NO TWIN time, no 2 crew time, many fail the assessment in the sim. Several Captains are already slated for mainline next year, with interviews open for internals again. Several have Middle East interviews in Jan and the Network fleet is expanding with more 319's coming and a replacement for the F100 is looming fast. WA is booming and the mining sector has a huge appetite for more flights. The pilot shortage is here now, not "coming" IT"S HERE !! and you guys are about to rollover on a **** deal right when the busiest time of the year is about to launch. There has never been a better time to say "hey we want some roster protections, proper DTA, decent accomodation and a pay scale that is better than just the award". Don't cave now guys you are holding all the cards - stand up & be counted. Keep it professional and stick together.
couldn't agree more! ^to many selfish people like YeahNup who want an extra 2inch lift on the 4wd

[framer]

cut the 10 year captain salary and pass it to the poor fo's/ reduce the check and training bonuses.
We should apply that thinking on a grander scale I reckon. Let’s find all the experienced workers in the nation and somehow transfer their wealth to others who haven’t got the same level of wealth or experience so that it is ‘fair’. This could be big, can’t believe nobody’s ever tried it before…….hang on, I’ve just asked my 13 year old what she thinks and she can only see positive outcomes for everyone. Very excited.

[YeahNup]

left wing ideology or fairness? You sound like one of the 10 year network koolaid drinkers that has their eyes on the bonuses at the cost of any decency in an EBA.

So you're suggesting that the crew who have been at NAA for ten years or more (and there are a lot of them), who have been doing the hard yards and earning their keep and incremental increases, should just take a pay cut to fund others who have been there for 5 minutes and who joined knowing full well the pay and conditions?

Happy days and hallelujah, you've just come up with the solution to a 100% YES vote. Someone certainly has been drinking the koolaide - but I don't think it's me.

[YeahNup]

couldn't agree more! ^to many selfish people like YeahNup who want an extra 2inch lift on the 4wd

Wrong again, smart guy - I don't own a four-wheel drive and never have. But hey, it seems that all you have is insults and hysterical hyperbole. What else you got?

[spc98075c]

I just saw an add for Network A320 FO.

700 hrs total time.

Desperation.

Vote no you clowns.

Out of curiosity, do you have a link?

[j3pipercub]

Come on you lot. Obvious troll is obvious.

[GipsyDanger]

I mean who’s really the troll here ? The one baiting people or the ones voting yes!

[soseg]

Come on you lot. Obvious troll is obvious.

The latest proposal at network:

Replacement of FIFO allowance with DHA of Capt $10.93 and FO $7.11 per hour. Offset by a “Low/Junior experience” salary rate where the pilot enters the main salary scale at the sooner of 1500 hrs or 3 years at Network.

I am sure one of the actual network pilots here can confirm they have been hiring and interviewing sub 1000 hr pilots.

The advertisement I saw with 700 TT was on one of those unofficial Facebook pilot job pages. Workday and seek still list 1500TT but refer to what I wrote earlier which would make those requirements redundant.

[Jester64]

Workday and seek still list 1500TT but refer to what I wrote earlier which would make those requirements redundant.

ATPL subjects are also listed as a requirement, but I have been told by a good source inside that these are being waived as there are simply not enough suitably qualified candidates. It probably means the total time can and is being waived too.

If there ever was a time to grab management by the short and curlies to achieve something close to mainline, now was that time. But I suppose this is the very reason why subsidiaries exist. Still, very disappointing to know a first year A320 captain at network is gonna gross low 200Ks.

[morno]

If there ever was a time to grab management by the short and curlies to achieve something close to mainline, now was that time. But I suppose this is the very reason why subsidiaries exist. Still, very disappointing to know a first year A320 captain at network is gonna gross low 200Ks.

Something close to mainline? Are you kidding? I reckon something equal to Jetstar is a goal. If you want mainline money, go work for mainline and go through the same process every other mainline pilot has had to do.

[Jester64]

Something close to mainline? Are you kidding? I reckon something equal to Jetstar is a goal. If you want mainline money, go work for mainline and go through the same process every other mainline pilot has had to do.

Whether you think they deserve it or not, couldn’t care less. But this was their chance to get somewhat close, as I heard this was their initial goal.

[RealSatoshi]

...and go through the same process every other mainline pilot has had to do.
C'mon Man!
It's hardly a NASA selection process - you lot making it out to be such, should seriously get over yourselves :}

[Chadzat]

ATPL subjects are also listed as a requirement, but I have been told by a good source inside that these are being waived as there are simply not enough suitably qualified candidates. It probably means the total time can and is being waived too.

If there ever was a time to grab management by the short and curlies to achieve something close to mainline, now was that time. But I suppose this is the very reason why subsidiaries exist. Still, very disappointing to know a first year A320 captain at network is gonna gross low 200Ks.

This hits the nail on the head and I wonder if we as existing experienced multi crew pilots have been negotiating wrong for these past few years. There will never be a full blown pilot shortage here like we have seen in the US and I think we can all list the reasons why that may be so. However there will (probably is already now) be a full blown EXPERIENCED pilot shortage. What do I mean by that? I mean a severe lack of upgradeable pilots who are able to quickly fill multicrew turbine command positions. Ie ATPLs, suitable previous experience, over 3000TT etc…

Airlines are ALL (except qf mainline atm) going to move towards a cadet based FO intake in the next few years. GA is on life support in this country and as multi engine pistons get scrapped, there will be minimal pilots coming from this traditional background. The new GA is RHS of a saab, dash, ejet or fokker.

As pilots negotiating ebas that cover the next 4 or so years, why dont we look towards rewarding experience and perhaps setting a more appropriate entry level wage for sub-1000hr pilots. Im not talking pay cuts or B scales necessarily but I think our thinking needs to shift with how we sell ourselves to airlines in order to make significant gains. In the future those of us with command time and ATPLs etc will become hugely valuable. FO’s with newly minted cpl’s will be a dime a dozen through the myriad FTA type schools. Set salarys based on experience levels and we may just see some proper gains in the industry….

Food for thought.

[Going Nowhere]

The latest proposal at network:

Replacement of FIFO allowance with DHA of Capt $10.93 and FO $7.11 per hour. Offset by a “Low/Junior experience” salary rate where the pilot enters the main salary scale at the sooner of 1500 hrs or 3 years at Network.

I am sure one of the actual network pilots here can confirm they have been hiring and interviewing sub 1000 hr pilots.

The advertisement I saw with 700 TT was on one of those unofficial Facebook pilot job pages. Workday and seek still list 1500TT but refer to what I wrote earlier which would make those requirements redundant.

The Turboprop’s just agreed to a DHA rate for Captain’s of over $15/hr.

Food for thought.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Something close to mainline? Are you kidding? I reckon something equal to Jetstar is a goal.
Wouldn’t achieving something ‘close to mainline’ actually put upward pressure on salaries for a change? A rising tide lifts all boats.
If you want mainline money, go work for mainline and go through the same process every other mainline pilot has had to do.
If it’s good enough for a subsidiary to fly QANTAS passengers in similar aircraft to similar destinations using QF flight numbers, WTF has ‘going through the same process as every other mainline pilot’ got to do with it? You should get paid a similar salary for doing similar work, not because you jagged an interview.

[DirectAnywhere]

Stop sniping and stay focussed on the main game.

That main game is NOT to have the hourly rate halved when flying over 59 hours.

Everything else is peripheral and largely irrelevant. Allowances, FIFO allowance, DHA, whatever you call it, sign on bonuses, even backpay - irrelevant. You’ll pay for those things over and over again if you don’t fix the hourly rate over 59 hours.

Focus.

[TooManyPineapples]

These are exactly the types I like to fly with. They call a spade a spade. I get it’s 2023 Pineapples, but someone needs to say it. Your’e known as the bin chickens now, it’s only gonna get worse for Network if this ****ty EBA gets voted up.

Wait, you’re saying you want to fly next to someone that says you and every other captain not only is crap at your job but also doesn’t deserve to hold a CPL?

That’s weird mate. It might be true for some, but not all.

[morno]

Wouldn’t achieving something ‘close to mainline’ actually put upward pressure on salaries for a change? A rising tide lifts all boats.

If it’s good enough for a subsidiary to fly QANTAS passengers in similar aircraft to similar destinations using QF flight numbers, WTF has ‘going through the same process as every other mainline pilot’ got to do with it? You should get paid a similar salary for doing similar work, not because you jagged an interview.

No worries, then I look forward to every Network pilot starting out as SO’s just like every other mainline pilot has had to.

The point I’m trying to make is more that if they want equal pay, then they to can get in line and wait 15-20 years to get their commands back.

I have no problem with a good boost in the rate at Network, and I agree it’ll lift all other salaries. But you’re kidding yourselves if you think you should get equal pay.

[Ladloy]

No worries, then I look forward to every Network pilot starting out as SO’s just like every other mainline pilot has had to.

The point I’m trying to make is more that if they want equal pay, then they to can get in line and wait 15-20 years to get their commands back.

I have no problem with a good boost in the rate at Network, and I agree it’ll lift all other salaries. But you’re kidding yourselves if you think you should get equal pay.
would a mainline SO make as much as a network FO? I know 330 SOs in their second year making close to 200k

[Lapon]

would a mainline SO make as much as a network FO? I know 330 SOs in their second year making close to 200k

The few 330 SOs I know used to say the same thing. When they joined they said the pay was actually pretty crap until year 4... and now there's a B scale or C scale or whatever it is.

You could probably fly your ass off and hide on layovers to save all your allowances and dress up the pay that way, but 200k as a year 2 SO nowadays sounds more the exception than the norm.

If life is OZ then find a job that works for you. If you want money go to the US. Don't get caught in the middle ground of being miserable with your choice though.

[aussieflyboy]

No worries, then I look forward to every Network pilot starting out as SO’s just like every other mainline pilot has had to.

The point I’m trying to make is more that if they want equal pay, then they to can get in line and wait 15-20 years to get their commands back.

I have no problem with a good boost in the rate at Network, and I agree it’ll lift all other salaries. But you’re kidding yourselves if you think you should get equal pay.

Sitting in the back seat sounds hard.

[soseg]

would a mainline SO make as much as a network FO? I know 330 SOs in their second year making close to 200k

The question is does a Network FO make as much as a Mainline SO.

Pretty sure most if not all Perth 787 SOs are projecting around 190k this FY from what I’ve been been told.

Go to work two, or three times a month and see London, Rome, Hong Kong, NYC, LA, SFO etc. Ten days off at a time. Not getting up at 3am multiple times per week to fly high vis into the mines.

How are you even comparing the two? Apples vs **** sandwiches.

[Lapon]

Go to work two, or three times a month and see London, Rome, Hong Kong, NYC, LA, SFO etc. Ten days off at a time. Not getting up at 3am multiple times per week to fly high vis into the mines.

How are you even comparing the two? Apples vs **** sandwiches.

To some people, the propect of flying through the night with days away from home at a time on a B or C scale deal with the only way out being a clapped out 73 is an equally **** sandwich.

Network deserve everyones support, but its thier EBA and what they want that matters. Not what the rest of us think they should want.

[soseg]

Network deserve everyones support, but its thier EBA and what they want that matters. Not what the rest of us think they should want.

Respect is earned. Voting yes to do overtime at half pay does not deserve our respect.

Many pilots there aren’t fully aware of the pay difference between Network and other companies such as mainline. Many I have spoken to had no idea what we earn across the hallway. Genuinely surprised when I told them.

I guess the industry as a whole should shut up, sit back and let them, and their sub 1000hr pilots who through no fault of their own, don’t know much better, and let them get exploited because they think it’s good enough?

You will find their fleet is in much worse state than the 737s. Stop pretending the 737 is that much of a horror to fly even for an extra 100k a year.

[davidclarke]

No worries, then I look forward to every Network pilot starting out as SO’s just like every other mainline pilot has had to.

The point I’m trying to make is more that if they want equal pay, then they to can get in line and wait 15-20 years to get their commands back.

I have no problem with a good boost in the rate at Network, and I agree it’ll lift all other salaries. But you’re kidding yourselves if you think you should get equal pay.

Morno you are delusional. A network pilot doesn’t get the opportunities to fly multiple different aircraft types, domestically and are the globe in what is truly a career airline. They get to fly to mine sites and back, and for that they deserve the same rate as other narrow body pilots in the group. You need to get off your high horse champ. What is it with the your feelings of grandeur….

[The Banjo]

The few 330 SOs I know used to say the same thing. When they joined they said the pay was actually pretty crap until year 4... and now there's a B scale or C scale or whatever it is.

You could probably fly your ass off and hide on layovers to save all your allowances and dress up the pay that way, but 200k as a year 2 SO nowadays sounds more the exception than the norm.

If life is OZ then find a job that works for you. If you want money go to the US. Don't get caught in the middle ground of being miserable with your choice though.

"fly or ass off"
Yah, right, nope
Show up with shiny shoes and a biro
Spend a third of the sector in crewrest
Not be allowed in an operating seat below FL200.

Topgun has nothing on you blokes.

[The Love Doctor]

No worries, then I look forward to every Network pilot starting out as SO’s just like every other mainline pilot has had to.

The point I’m trying to make is more that if they want equal pay, then they to can get in line and wait 15-20 years to get their commands back.

I have no problem with a good boost in the rate at Network, and I agree it’ll lift all other salaries. But you’re kidding yourselves if you think you should get equal pay.

Like all the SO's who on day one get offered 737 right hand seat?

[Lapon]

Respect is earned. Voting yes to do overtime at half pay does not deserve our respect.

With the disclaimer that I don't work for Network, is thier overtime rate really keeping non network pilots awake at night?

The real question should be who the hell wants to fly more than the 59hrs anyway?
If they are offered peanuts to do it, and the company can't crew the things thats thier problem.

If your implying that Network can force pilots to fly more than 59hrs then that is a game changer of a pineapple and needs to be nipped in the bud far before squabbling over any o/time rates.

If Network pilots are not aware of what everyone else gets its because they dont care.
The few vauge acquaintances I know there joined because they want to live in Perth, and do day trips up and down the Pilbara, they didn't want to be LH SO's, or mainline pilots.
They just wanted to live in Perth, and go to Pilbara with minimal weekend work, buuuuut the job has changed and thats the issue. Now they are simply trying reach a degree of compensation for those changes on terms that work for them.

[hillbillybob]

The latest proposal at network:

Replacement of FIFO allowance with DHA of Capt $10.93 and FO $7.11 per hour. Offset by a “Low/Junior experience” salary rate where the pilot enters the main salary scale at the sooner of 1500 hrs or 3 years at Network.


the classic turbo style vote to screw over those that haven’t arrived yet for a few coins in your pocket.

[framer]

Many pilots there aren’t fully aware of the pay difference between Network and other companies such as mainline.
I think that’s a very good point. I suspect that if someone set up a webpage were you could easily compare gross income from different operators in different ranks in just a few seconds, there would be some very annoyed pilots in the subsidiaries.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

One other thing that needs to be considered before the next vote. QF clearly don’t need you to give away T&C’s in order to remain viable, just check the burgeoning profits, they want you to because that’s their “thing”. Never give one thing up in return for something else, you always go backwards.

Vote NO!

[framer]

If your implying that Network can force pilots to fly more than 59hrs then that is a game changer of a pineapple and needs to be nipped in the bud far before squabbling over any o/time rates.
Im pretty sure that the roster comes out and you fly it whether it’s 99 hours or 58 hours. Correct me if I’m wrong.
The way it looks to me is that you’ve earned your salary by 59hrs, and then you are forced onto a significantly lower rate of remuneration for the next however many hours.

[Lapon]

Im pretty sure that the roster comes out and you fly it whether it’s 99 hours or 58 hours. Correct me if I’m wrong.
The way it looks to me is that you’ve earned your salary by 59hrs, and then you are forced onto a significantly lower rate of remuneration for the next however many hours.

If true then thats what people should be fighting.

Overtime is supposed to be an incentive to work beyond the minimum. Key part being incentive to.

Imagine a factory worker being paid for a 40 hour week, but things get busy and he is simply told 'too bad you're working 50 this week, but thats ok because will pay you - even though we won't even ask you first' :yuk:

[morno]

Like all the SO's who on day one get offered 737 right hand seat?

They’re still SO’s until the day they’re checked to line. It’s just a fantastic set of circumstances that has given them the opportunity to upgrade straight away.

[morno]

Morno you are delusional. A network pilot doesn’t get the opportunities to fly multiple different aircraft types, domestically and are the globe in what is truly a career airline. They get to fly to mine sites and back, and for that they deserve the same rate as other narrow body pilots in the group. You need to get off your high horse champ. What is it with the your feelings of grandeur….

No feelings of grandeur, can assure you of that. And I have no problem with them getting the best deal they can, I WANT them to. But they are not going to get equal pay to mainline and if they want equal pay, then come and fly for mainline.

There are many good FO’s at mainline who have had years cut off their commands because of subsidiaries and I’m not for one second blaming the subsidiary pilots. But why should someone who’s been in the Group 5 minutes get a command in a few years or less, and then earn mainline Captain pay, when an FO in mainline isn’t afforded the same opportunity?