No one wants to be a Captain.

[krismiler]

Why airlines can’t get enough captainsReuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/united-airlines-grapples-with-pilots-avoiding-captains-chair-2023-07-18/) has a fascinating story about how many pilots at the major US airlines are avoiding the upgrade to captain, and it’s causing a problem for airlines:


At United Airlines, bids for roughly half of the captain vacancies have gone unfilled, meaning United can’t find enough first officers who want to become captains
At American Airlines, more than 7,000 pilots have chosen not to take the captain upgrade, and the number of people declining the upgrade has at least doubled in the past seven years

So while there’s an overall pilot shortage, the concern is that we’re soon going to deal with a captain shortage, whereby there are enough total pilots, but not enough people who want to become captains.

This link give the new pay rates.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/airline-pilots-promoted-captain/

[Capt Fathom]

Most people want to be a Captain.
But they may not want to relocate to where that Captains position is available. Family, work, life balance issues!

[Magplug]

Every man has his price, it's just a question of numbers.

[procede]

Most people want to be a Captain.
But they may not want to relocate to where that Captains position is available. Family, work, life balance issues!

I think the issue is more with seniority, which makes the schedule very irregular for a beginning captain. Especially not great if you have a young family.

[Koan]

I can't be on reserve. Does not work with my lifestyle.

[20driver]

I was at a party with a SWA FO a while back. He was not bidding for the LHS till his daughter finished high school. He did not want to miss her sports games and the other things that do not come twice.
Made sense to me.

[hans brinker]

I think the issue is more with seniority, which makes the schedule very irregular for a beginning captain. Especially not great if you have a young family.

Yes. And seniority in seat has a much larger impact in the US than I remember it having in Europe. As a senior FO you can make as much as a junior Captain, and have more control over your vacation and days off. Current NB upgrade at both DL&UA is 1 year for those who want it. But holding a line that doesn’t work every weekend, and getting summer vacation or Christmas off could easily take 10 years.

[lederhosen]

This is turning into a golden age for younger pilots. I know a 23 year old on the 737 with United. If things continue like this and he gets a quick upgrade he could have nearly 40 years in the left seat. Things rarely work out as you expect. But compared to the restructurings of a few years ago this is truly an extraordinary period in the US.

[Gordomac]

IN 1964, I was rejected by the BOAC/BEA, UK College of Air Training at Hamble for "not possessing in sufficient strength, all of the qualities looked for in a potential BOAC Captain". I fired back that I had no desire to become a BOAC Captain but dearly wanted to be a BOAC Third Officer so that other dudes could fly me around the world from one room party to to the other,

Head of Selection, ex BOAC Nav not possessing, in sufficient strength all of the sense of humour looked for in a potential mentor,failed to offer me a second try.

Years later, as a BA First Officer anyway, stuck in the Queen's Building at LHR on Trident SBY, I was preparing to leave having been offered jobs everywhere. I was astonished by some folk, one in particular, who was ready to serve at least another 15 years in the RHS because, as he put it, "Surely, it is a BA Command that is the focus-?"

Fast forward ten years and I had long forgotten what it was it was like in the RHS and in Paris, Chemps Elysee (sorry Frenchies for appalling spelling), layover, watching the Tour de France sweep into town, seated beside a US Legacy Carrier SFO who told me that he was on DC10, Based Paris, and wrote his own roster. He had , after decades, just been offered upgrade to Captain.It would be on a smelly 727, based somewhere even more smelly flying a six on two off roster. We both fell about larfing and missed who won the race !

Today however, big chance if you are focused on the LHS. Go for it.

[Check Airman]

The US system is pretty flexible. It’s quite common for someone to bypass a narrowbody Captain slot for a more coveted widebody FO slot, or even stay as a senior narrowbody FO, while making more money and working less.

[stilton]

I spent six very happy years as a senior widebody FO with a major US Airline, best flying and best quality of life I ever had, only upgrading to the left seat when I had the seniority to do so as a line holder on the same type


Well worth the wait

[Max Angle]

It’s quite common for someone to bypass a narrowbody Captain slot for a more coveted widebody FO slot, or even stay as a senior narrowbody FO, while making more money and working less.
Exactly the same in BA at the moment.

[ETOPS]

Wonder what would happen if they advertised for Direct Entry Captains? Offered help with the green card for furriners…:hmm:

[kap'n krunch]

Is anyone aware of mandatory upgrades currently in place at major carriers? I thought that American Airlines had this policy at one time (“up or out”) and that a failure during the upgrade process resulted in termination from flying duties.

[Busdriver01]

Certainly for some, myself included, the covid period has highlighted that when all is said and done it's being around friends and family that is most important. Not working every weekend. I'm not afraid to admit that it's completely changed my attitude to work and outlook/aspirations for my career. I know i signed up to a seniority based airline, but i'm simply not prepared to have my home life destroyed in the way it would be by taking a different seat, back at the bottom of a slow moving (almost idle) list. In other words, i'm not prepared to have my life ruined by my work.

[1201alarm]

The career of piloting is hitting fundamental shifts of the career choice influencing conditions.

1. Flying becomes cheaper and cheaper (lets not get distracted by the price surge after covid due to capacity constraints). This effect becomes even more prevalent when compared to the buying power of the populations. This means more and more people fly, meaning aviation need a higher percentage of young people from the overall population to convince them to become pilots.

2. The entry barriers into the job have increased. 1500h rule in the US, smaller military fleets, no full sponsorships anymore in Europe (although BA seems to revert that)

3. The job has become less attractive due to:
3.a: the work conditions have deteriorated, the job pays less
3.b: the work conditions have deteriorated: the job expects more work, giving less buffer for requesting and influencing private life
3.c: you don't need to be an airliner anymore to travel and see the world, because traveling became so much cheaper (see point 1.)

4. in the talent pool, where aspiring pilots are coming from, most other fitting jobs now offer much better work life balance:
4.a: remote working, home office
4.b: yearly hours account: you can make overtime one week and take 2 days off the next week, if it suits your private plans
4.c: holidays usually when you want and need it and not when the capacitiy planning allows it
4.d: in general not the lifelong external control over your life in terms of weekends, birthdays, important celebrations etc. like pilots have to endure under their assigned duty planning

5. the younger ones are reluctant to enter an industry that has a bad reputation with regard to climat

I am absolutely convinced if the industry wants to keep growing it will have to address these issues: meaning mostly to lower the entry barriers and to fundamentally change the work-lifestyle-balance of crews.

The industry will need to increase the amount of pilots more than just for growth, to offer better lifestyle to convince young people to get into the career. That will mean a fundamental rethink of the training model.

Alternatively you can cover the problem with a lot of money and offer part time to the guys who want more lifestyle.

[Herod]

Many years ago, a First Officer said to me that he felt I had enjoyed the Golden Age of aviation. I replied that no, I had enjoyed the Silver Age, and he would be suffering the Bronze Age. The more I see, the more I feel I was right.

[RexBanner]

As I’ve posted elsewhere if you think it’s got bad in this industry you go and have a look at every other industry where there has been at least equal and in many cases exponentially worse levels of decline. We’re still comparatively bloody lucky to do the job we do and it beats the living hell out of the vast majority of other jobs out there. Get some perspective.

[1201alarm]

Sorry Rex, but that is simply not true. I am not talking about pension rules etc. which have worsened for everyone since the demographics just don't add up anymore.

You have to compare with jobs that neccessitate a similar technical expertise, seriousness and commitment to the job as piloting. Work conditions in such jobs have clearly not deteriorated. The opposite is true. Such employers do everything to keep you as the technical expertise is costly to rebuild with a new recruit. I laid out what the terms of such jobs nowadays entail in flexibility, work life balance, etc...

[hans brinker]

Wonder what would happen if they advertised for Direct Entry Captains? Offered help with the green card for furriners…:hmm:

They can't, most companies require time before upgrade (either a year or 500 hours or something like it). And it wouldn't make any difference, because you would still be bound by the same seniority spot, so reserve till you can hold a line would be long. Everything in the US is done by seniority, previous experience give you nothing. Plenty of regionals are offering DEC to new hires if they meet the requirements, but all FOs hired before them will eventually upgrade, and be ahead of them when schedules and vacation are handed out.
I would be very surprised if the airlines will get the DOL to approve EB green card applications.

[krismiler]

Many years ago, a First Officer said to me that he felt I had enjoyed the Golden Age of aviation. I replied that no, I had enjoyed the Silver Age, and he would be suffering the Bronze Age. The more I see, the more I feel I was right.

In the 1960s an airline pilot was the equivalent of a film star, flying a B707 all over the world to exotic destinations that most people would never see in their lives. The 1970s would still have been great, the 1980s it started to go downhill. These days it’s pay for your own type rating and bring your lunch to work. Never mind the Bronze Age, this is the tin age for all but a lucky few.

Catching the end of WW2 in a bomber, riding the post war boom in civil aviation in BOAC or PAN AM and retiring from the B747 fleet in the early 1980s on a good pension would have the ultimate.

[Bidule]

Sorry Rex, but that is simply not true. I am not talking about pension rules etc. which have worsened for everyone since the demographics just don't add up anymore.

You have to compare with jobs that neccessitate a similar technical expertise, seriousness and commitment to the job as piloting. Work conditions in such jobs have clearly not deteriorated. The opposite is true. Such employers do everything to keep you as the technical expertise is costly to rebuild with a new recruit. I laid out what the terms of such jobs nowadays entail in flexibility, work life balance, etc...


Likely we do not live on the same planet! I am with Rex on this one.


.

[Lordflasheart]

Hans -

They can't, most companies require time before upgrade (either a year or 500 hours)

Direct Entry Captain used to be mostly for tin-pot airlines. They didn't upgrade co-pilots to jets or command because management knew they would jump ship.

On the east side of the pond, British Airways is currently advertising for A320 Direct Entry Captains for the Euroflyer operation at Gatwick. See here - https://careers.ba.com/experienced-pilots

... You get straight onto the BA MSL. And you don't need a Green Card.

BA is not currently seeking DECs for BA Cityflyer, but if they were (and for a different reason - I think they've always done it that way) you don't get onto the BA MSL or have automatic rights to the parent company. ... https://careers.ba.com/ba-cityflyer-pilots

LFH

edit to clarify Cityflyer remarks

[Gordomac]

M'Lud, with respect; drifting a bit. Back-door entry into BA has been legit for donks. I know quite a few who flew with BA painted on the side of their aircraft but it wasn't really, BA. Franchise or something. But, they all wound up in BA mainline.

A fave gig of mine was PARC Aviation contract with Transavia Based AMS. I was DEC, 757, wore Transavia uniform, settled into one of the happiest flying periods of my career and wished everyone Gnoodah Morgan. While I looked like a Transavia Captain, I wasn't a real one, was I ? The Company did give us the chance to join. I was told it would be RHS, 737 and about 8 years to get back into the LHS. It was also a really long-shot at getting into KLM.

Back to topic though. Kris has it spot-on. Best tines are over. Different ball game now but still very satisfying for those who want to fly commercial planes for a living.. Not all want to be Captains either.

[Check Airman]

Back to topic though. Kris has it spot-on. Best tines are over. Different ball game now but still very satisfying for those who want to fly commercial planes for a living.. Not all want to be Captains either.

I’d say the vast majority would prefer to be captain. However, a growing number aren’t willing to do so at any cost, as has been the case in the past.

Combine that with the fact that most new joiners at a US legacy have already been PIC, being captain isn’t really that big of a deal for them.

[Squawk7777]

Is anyone aware of mandatory upgrades currently in place at major carriers? I thought that American Airlines had this policy at one time (“up or out”) and that a failure during the upgrade process resulted in termination from flying duties.

That went away with the USAirways/AA merger (amongst other miscellaneous archaic things). I believe you were seat locked (meaning you had to stay in that seat) for two years before bidding back to FO.

It is a completely different airline now, and keeps on changing due to a high number of retirements. _Maybe_ one day, we'd free ourselves from this horrible union and rejoin ALPA.

[Squawk7777]

I’d say the vast majority would prefer to be captain. However, a growing number aren’t willing to do so at any cost, as has been the case in the past.

Combine that with the fact that most new joiners at a US legacy have already been PIC, being captain isn’t really that big of a deal for them.

Additionally, these "youngsters" have a very different point of view about QoL. Whereas the Boomers would chase money and CA upgrade at any cost, the new pilots joining the US airlines now care more about time at home, scheduling (roster) flexibility and benefits. You already see the shift happening here at AA ...

[Lookleft]

Additionally, these "youngsters" have a very different point of view about QoL. Whereas the Boomers would chase money and CA upgrade at any cost, the new pilots joining the US airlines now care more about time at home, scheduling (roster) flexibility and benefits. You already see the shift happening here at AA ...
​​​​​​​
Its also a shift I am seeing where I am in the land of Oz. F/Os who have young kids are not wanting the responsibility or hassle of command training when at the end of the day it will result in disruption to family life. Even the pilots who have taken a command are saying that they can't visualise themselves doing this job for the next 20-30 years. At the same time that airlines worldwide are making the job less attractive the demand for more pilots is increasing. Eventually they (the airlines) will have to provide the work/life balance that is being demanded by the younger cohort.

[bringbackthe80s]

Ever heard about something called “sacrifice”?
It is no coincidence the world is in the state it is in.

[Check Airman]

Ever heard about something called “sacrifice”?
It is no coincidence the world is in the state it is in.
I'm not sure what you're getting to regarding sacrifice...Should these pilots not have any say in the quantity and quality of work they do? What exactly are they sacrificing for?

[HidekiTojo]

The only benefit of a command is money.

[lederhosen]

I cannot agree with that last statement. I found being ‘my own boss’ was much more pleasant and interesting than being a first officer. The behavior of some captains left quite a lot to be desired, insisting on smoking on the flight deck, poor CRM and dubious personal hygiene were but a few of quite a large number of undesirable traits I remember. I also found the vast majority of first officers to be more pleasant company on the flight deck.

[Flying Wild]

I'm with lederhosen . Whilst the money is nice, setting the tone for the day and running the show provides a great deal of job satisfaction. Admittedly I'm at an airline which has random rosters, but I'm 30 mins from my base and home every night, so have relatively little to grumble about. One thing that is guaranteed about Pilots is that they will always have something to moan about.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

I'm not sure what you're getting to regarding sacrifice...Should these pilots not have any say in the quantity and quality of work they do? What exactly are they sacrificing for?

Nail. Head. Bang.

The “sacrifice” is the money (and career progression?) that one could make in the LHS, and that sacrifice is made in the name of a better quality of home life. I know plenty of RHS pilots in a good position on a seniority list who have made plenty of sacrifices - and are prioritising home life and cut their cloth accordingly.

If one took the LHS, potentially the “sacrifice” is your home and family life, and for what? More money and to keep an airline running? most of us saw exactly how much airlines and their shareholders value crew during Covid (if we weren’t in any doubt from previous downturn). No doubt there is significant satisfaction to a command but Covid has seen people re-evaluate what is important in a lot of professions.

I know very few people who have left this veil of tears wishing they had spent more time at work. I’ve known quite a few who wished they’d prioritised their family though.

One of the old guard’s arguments to young pups who get the worst end of the seniority stick, in an era where that stick is doubtless more spike covered than it used to be, is that seniority is security and choice… how on earth can they then turn round to them and say “now you are reaping the benefits of seniority as a top 20% SFO, suck it up and be junior again because the company (and my own roster stability) need you to”?

“Career progression”… “The aim is to be a Captain”… we all want to progress - we all want to be better/safer pilots (which does not necessarily mean a command), but we also want to have a sustainable home life/roster and time with our families, time when we aren’t exhausted. The sort of person who would sacrifice their home life and everything else in the name of the LHS/their career and a thank you email from management isn’t someone I would necessarily relish sharing a flight deck with.

To my mind we are seeing another driver that will improve Ts and Cs… which isn’t a bad thing, even if it makes some in the industry (even pilots, bizarrely apparently) gnash their teeth.

[megan]

One of the old guard’s arguments to young pups who get the worst end of the seniority stick, in an era where that stick is doubtless more spike covered than it used to be, is that seniority is security and choice… how on earth can they then turn round to them and say “now you are reaping the benefits of seniority as a top 20% SFO, suck it up and be junior again because the company (and my own roster stability) need you to”?One of the things I never understood about the seniority system, how those at the top lap up the cream and those at the bottom have to eat dirt, it's not a company imposed system, it's those at the top of the list looking after themselves. Not taking a captaincy is nothing new, friend in the '80's became senior 727 FO at a base and turned down any advancement because of life style in a city he enjoyed, a move would have meant taking up a captaincy on a F-27 and beginning the progression through DC-9 then 727, all based anywhere in the country.

[Check Airman]

I'm with lederhosen . Whilst the money is nice, setting the tone for the day and running the show provides a great deal of job satisfaction. Admittedly I'm at an airline which has random rosters, but I'm 30 mins from my base and home every night, so have relatively little to grumble about.
Part of the reason many are opting not to become captains is to have a schedule which allows them to be home more. Perhaps they value life satisfaction over job satisfaction?

[FlyingStone]

The title should really read Nobody wants to be a Captain [due to seniority-based schedule, where the old and the senior get whatever they want, and the young and the junior get screwed].

[fmcee]

I had a LHS in a narrow body for a major legacy carrier. Due to family health issues, I had to commute to/from my base (with unreliable staff travel) to our home. The stress/cost was terrible but nothing on the feeling of guilt that came over me whilst being away from my family during their health challenges. The narrow body operation I flew for was set up for pilots residing inside 60 minutes road travel from sign on….not commuters.

I thought I knew what I was getting into, but the goal posts moved during my training as overnights disappeared (as other SH bases were opened). Luckily for me, I was able to move back to a Wide Body RHS before I had a breakdown. Doable commute, dense flying and stable rostering made the job doable again.

Every person have priorities that change during their working lives. I would never knock anybody that chose family over an extra bar and a LHS,

[ScepticalOptomist]

Agree wholeheartedly.

[Busdriver01]

'When are you going to go long haul?" "when do you get to fly the big planes" (as if a narrow body jet is something to be laughed at) "you should go long haul"

Right, yeah, I will, when my seniority will ensure i'm not doing 5/6 2-crew JFKs every month. That sounds wonderful. not.

[G SXTY]

Not long after passing my I.R., a trainer gave me one of the best bits of advice i’ve ever received. “Once you’ve got enough hours and experience, options start to open up. Then it becomes a game to find the job that pays the most money, for the best lifestyle and the least amount of work.” That’s this career in a nutshell.

I’d like to be a captain, but not at any cost. And whilst I never started out expecting to be a career F.O., the lifestyle hit in moving from RHS long haul to (extremely junior) LHS short haul would be completely unsustainable. For me, quality of life trumps pay or number of stripes, although I’m lucky to be at an outfit where F.O.s are treated like grown-ups and ‘being the boss’ or ‘setting the tone for the day’ aren’t really an issue. The vast majority of colleagues on my fleet feel the same way, and are holding out for LH command or staying put until they retire.

If my employer can’t get enough volunteers for junior commands, that’s an indictment on them, and eventually they will be forced to up the offer; either with cash or lifestyle improvements. Sadly, I can’t see it happening anytime soon…

[Discorde]

In the late 1970s in BA the proportion of young captains was steadily increasing and we junior copilots could see our commands disappearing over the horizon. A few of us took the plunge and signed on with a respected charter airline. Two bonuses were more handling (one leg in two rather than one in three or worse) and a more useful type rating (B737).

The calculated career strategy adjustment (aka gamble) paid off - within 3 years the fleet size had doubled and we had worked our way into the coveted front left seat.

The workload was seasonal - busy summers and quieter winters but - as in most airlines in those times - the overall workload was less than for our modern counterparts and we had more time off. And less managerial interference - more freedom to run the show as you wanted.

[stilton]

One of the things I never understood about the seniority system, how those at the top lap up the cream and those at the bottom have to eat dirt, it's not a company imposed system, it's those at the top of the list looking after themselves. Not taking a captaincy is nothing new, friend in the '80's became senior 727 FO at a base and turned down any advancement because of life style in a city he enjoyed, a move would have meant taking up a captaincy on a F-27 and beginning the progression through DC-9 then 727, all based anywhere in the country.


Those at the top had to start at the bottom, no one gets a short cut, some may move up faster than others due to better economic times or other reasons but it’s still a gamble and the seniority system is still the fairest one possible

[bafanguy]

One of the things I never understood about the seniority system, how those at the top lap up the cream and those at the bottom have to eat dirt, it's not a company imposed system, it's those at the top of the list looking after themselves.

Those "...at the top of the list..." didn't have the power to create the seniority system; they merely operate within that system. It was created by broader forces at work beyond the reach and influence of any demographic.

How else would you propose to distribute the flying ? A system where no one has any choice or control over his monthly fate ? Pawns every minute of every month at the whim of management ? Depend on the management drones to be "fair" to all concerned ?

The seniority system puts order in the game.

Regardless of the profession or job, someone has to follow the circus elephants with a bucket and shovel. Given a bit of time, they will pass that bucket and shovel to someone else. It all evens out in the end.

[Check Airman]

I don't think anyone's upset about the seniority system. Seniority is a currency, and people shop where they can get the most bang for their buck.

The choice here is between the flashy sportscar that you need to work extra to pay for, or the sensible sedan that leaves you with extra money to pursue other interests.

[JuniorMan]

I keep seeing money as a reason to upgrade to Captain; but at US airlines you can make significantly more as mid to senior FO. This is primarily due to certain caveats in pilot contracts. A junior reserve 777 Captain will earn less than a senior 777 FO. It makes no sense as the Captain has much more responsibility; but current contracts at US legacies allow for it. This is one of the primary reasons we are seeing FOs not take upgrades.

[lederhosen]

There has always been more than an element of luck in how quick/whether and under what conditions you upgrade. The BA/BOAC young captains who timed it right in the sixties had a great run but many ended up being forced to retire earlier than they would have liked. Those that joined a few years later were at the bottom of the seniority ladder for a very long time, but some at least ended up being able to retire later and with much more pension than originally expected. I am surprised that Blind Pugh has not contributed to the thread because as one of the generation that joined in that second wave he has posted quite a lot of anecdotes that suggest that all was not quite as rosy back then as some would like to remember. A lot of US pilots saw their pension plans destroyed by the financial turmoil following deregulation. Now the pendulum has swung the other way and the major US carriers at least are offering telephone number salaries. But as for the future I am sure things will level out and some of the anomalies, like the one JuniorMan has identified will be rectified. The only certainty is that we pilots will find something to complain about.

[Uplinker]

One of the things I never understood about the seniority system, how those at the top lap up the cream and those at the bottom have to eat dirt, it's not a company imposed system, it's those at the top of the list looking after themselves. Not taking a captaincy is nothing new, friend in the '80's became senior 727 FO at a base and turned down any advancement because of life style in a city he enjoyed, a move would have meant taking up a captaincy on a F-27 and beginning the progression through DC-9 then 727, all based anywhere in the country.

Seems that in some professions, e.g. aviation and medicine, those "at the top" don't give a sh*t about those at the bottom and are reluctant to get involved in any sort of action to change the conditions of the juniors; whereas in television broadcasting, for example, they tend to care more about the juniors.

[Luc Lion]

That's because the difference between a happy young face and a grumpy old face is more visible in the television industry.

[anxiao]

Discode at #42, I was there at BA in the late '70s as a co-pilot and could see 15 years of Belfast shuttles ahead of me.

BEA in those days had a roster system, so it did not matter how senior in rank you were, you got Barcelona/Hamburg four sectors days or night Belfasts, irrespective of your time in the airline. I spent two years in BOAC '77 to '79 where they had bidline, where the advantages of seniority was extreme. The most senior at each rank had a brilliant well remunerated life, full choice of roster and tax free meal allowances which allowed you to live on half of them and spend the rest back home. The bottom of the fleet got standby months and callouts for unpopular destinations that had been dropped to the open time board and had to be crewed.

Turning back a command for lifestyle choices, which was not even a phrase back then, would get threats from management that you would not be offered a command again. Hollow threats as it turned out, but unpleasant all the same. The offer of a command to go from an SFO position on a worldwide fleet to a a Captain on a fleet that did weeks of standby then Cairo turnarounds left you out of pocket and with a woeful home life. But still the pressure of "we might not ask you again."

So the point of the above is that it was all dependant on the Bidline. The UK name for the American system of seniority which gives everything to the seniors and a poor second to the rest. BA tried splitting the roster into three to get more equality, but it was half hearted and did not work.

So I left, and went to an airline that had full roster. The most senior did the rough trips the same as the junior. All fleets (there were three) were paid the same. When you were senior enough to be offered command, you took it as there was no loss of pay or time off or base, just the position of running your own flight deck and more salary. Some senior guys resented it and suggested systems of choice, but we all took the job as if it were a military squadron. Indeed one of our directors declared that he was determined to break our squadron mentality of pilot camaraderie, of mutual trust and support, as HR could not manage us in the way their MBA HR lectures had taught them.

I support fully the choices of senior first officers in airlines rejecting command for their own reasons. The systems under which they work have only themselves to blame for allowing such iniquities to exist where to be "promoted" gives you less money, an awful base and an aircraft from the 1970s.

[Busdriver01]

Rotating seniority / bid groups sound like a great alternative to me - 4 groups, every three months your group is one place more senior than it was last month, and three months of the year even the most senior have to do weekends, rough trips etc. Maintain seniority within the group so worst case senior pilot is 1/4 off the bottom.

[Ollie Onion]

Rotating seniority / bid groups sound like a great alternative to me - 4 groups, every three months your group is one place more senior than it was last month, and three months of the year even the most senior have to do weekends, rough trips etc. Maintain seniority within the group so worst case senior pilot is 1/4 off the bottom.

Good luck getting the Senior Pilots voting for that.

[bafanguy]

Good luck getting the Senior Pilots voting for that.

Under this scenario, does anyone get to vote ?

This program would be the total abandonment of seniority as it's understood. Might as well just remove the word from the lexicon and turn your fate over to management to make everyone equally and repeatedly miserable.

[slast]

Interesting discussion for us oldsters who have seen several different types of system in practice. I’m not sure whether anyone will want to read this but someone might find it useful when pushing their representatives about contracts!

Full disclosure: I was one of the very lucky BA Hamsters, with essentially free professional training straight out of secondary school, I was assigned to BEA at age 20, and got a command (turboprop freighters, mostly nights) at 29 as a result of the wave of ex-military Captain retirements before BEA and BOAC were functionally merged in the 80s. Someone my age who joined only 3 years later (because he went for a university degree first) had to wait many years more. I stayed in the SH (old BEA) system until 1990, at which point I could choose to enjoy the better aspects of LH operations while avoiding most of the crap lifestyle elements. (There were other reasons but not relevant here.) I also had a minor management position for a while.

So I used the system to best advantage for myself: I know I was VERY FORTUNATE, but I was able to make the most of the system I had signed up for. The downside was mandatory retirement at 55, but as that had been a known factor since signing on it did not give me personally any cause for complaint, I was happy to go and do something else. I also worked for nearly all that time in IFALPA, so spent a lot of time with a very wide range of pilots from all over the world. As a result I learned much more about career systems at hta time than the vast majority of pilots are able to do just from personal experience. So from that background a few things might be relevant here.

For example, what’s a “career” path? In the C20th and with the legacy carriers, I have little doubt that a LHS carried much higher status, as well as GENERALLY more money, outside the USA, with virtuaqlly no-one ever going from Left to Right seat voluntarily. That may not be so today. The whole profession seems to carry less status as well.

Why is seniority-based bidding the “least bad” system to use in determining career trajectory? There are arguments that career advancement should be based on “merit”, as is (allegedly) the case in many other professions when deciding on a business employee's progress. The problem with that is, who determines relative merit or suitability? If it’s a “management decision”, in most large business there are internal criteria for saying A is better/more suitable than B, to (try to!) limit managers’ personal biases.

The big difference is that airline pilots are as far as I know the ONLY group of employees whose individual professional skills are repeatedly tested throughout their career, to satisfy an EXTERNALLY imposed uniform standard. Every pilot has to demonstrate their ability to do the job to the same specific criteria every year, or lose their licence – and hence employment – independently of what the employer thinks of them. The most objective way to say one person is likely to be more suitable than another for a job that both want, is to say that all other things being equal (and broadly speaking the annual renewals result in that), the one with the most experience is likely to be “better qualified”. In general terms length of service within the business is going to reflect more experience which should at least in theory reflect a higher level of competence. So despite its flaws, this shows up in seniority systems which have been adopted and are continually modified with varying degrees of success to suit changing environments.

What’s important to the individual? No two pilots are the same, even at exactly the same point in their career. Then this also changes throughout your life - what’s important at 25 is not the same at 35, 45, 55, or even 65. It’s impossible to cater for personal variations with a fixed system in which they are regarded as identical “units”.

Money vs other benefits and productivity. In the ‘60s and ‘70s BAW (BEA/BOAC) pilots’ pay could not be freely negotiated, as like many legacy carriers, these airlines were government owned. To paraphrase a story told to me by the late Laurie Taylor, when he was BALPA’s Chairman he was told by a very senior government official that the salary of the BOAC board members was set by his department. The BOAC Board Chairman would never be paid more than he was, and no way was any pilot going to paid more than BOAC’s Chairman, so BALPA could forget about matching US salaries for the 747 which had been massively raised by putting the 747 into the “formula pay” equation. The bottom line of that dispute was that BA pilots remained relatively low paid in global terms: but got generally much better working conditions (including pension provisions) while being rather less productive than their US counterparts. So trade-offs are possible. (At one time I think it was AeroMexico pilots who had very little money but lots of “benefits in kind” – in 1976 they hosted an IFALPA Conference in the luxury resort hotel their association owned on the beach in Acapulco!)

Lifestyle and choices. In the early 70s BA’s components airlines had manually rostered scheduling for pilots and cabin crew alike with little to no individual control. Philosophically, rostering means the company owns the staff, uses individuals as it sees fit and at its discretion gives individuals back bits of their lives it can’t use. Managements are very reluctant to give up this right to micro-manage everyone. In fact, it doesn’t matter at all to the company who does what bit of work, as long as it gets done – but managements are very reluctant to recognise this. But the pilots then moved to a bid/seniority based system while cabin crew stayed the same. Rostering systems may actually need quite a lot more people, because when individuals don’t feel they have control of their lives, they may well take it back anyway, typically by calling in sick*. (See below!)

Who is screwing you around? People can generally see that they can’t have everything their own way all the time, and so there will be occasions when they don’t get what they want. In my experience they will be much more willing to accept this if the blockage is caused by someone “on the same side” rather than imposed by the employer – especially if they have the same ability on a different occasion. It's much more acceptable to find you didn’t get to do what you wanted because a colleague who also wanted it did, rather than because “the company” gave it to someone who maybe didn't even want it anyway.

Fairness and equality: Again in my experience people are much more concerned that things be seen to be FAIR rather than EQUAL. Because individuals don’t matter to large organisations turning out a product like hundreds of flights, rostering systems tend to be based on maximising equality of outcome, e.g. all pilots flying the same (and maximum) amount, even if some would be happy to accept lower pay or unpopular patterns in exchange for more personal control.

Finally, the details of what can be bid for need to carefully considered by both management and pilot reps. Basically management are only interested in minimising cost, both short and long. Short term is immediate headcount, long term includes manpower planning - retirement waves, training cost and all that. A lot depends on the fleet mix and route structure – is there much variety and not much potential change? So there’s definitely no one size fits all system.

But the objective should be that everyone has the maximum possible freedom of choice to do exactly what they want; Everyone should have equal rights in the medium term (i.e. years, not months or decades). Everyone is different and has needs and wishes that will change over time. Fairness of opportunity is more important than equality of outcome. You will (in my opinion) always need a “seniority” system in an airline because you will always have differentiate between otherwise identically qualified pilots. You’ll never get a perfect system. But it does seem that the current systems in the US major US carriers at least are not getting the balance.

Glad I'm out of it anyway!!

Steve

*I recall a conversation with a BA longhaul stewardess who just told her fleet manager she was getting married in 6 months’ time, and asked if she could book some leave? “We’ll have to see nearer the time and can’t guarantee it” was the answer. She was fine with that - she knew there’d be “a nasty stomach bug going around” on the relevant date. BA’s cabin crew management actually accepted that there would be lots more “social sickness” at Christmas and Wimbledon weeks for example. But because they could not predict exactly which individuals would call it and on what flights, they just had to employ many more people to cover the extra standbys, and because they insisted on mixing standby blocks with flying lines when a standby was called out it disrupted that individual’s subsequent trips so another standby had to called for that, and so on down the line.

Since real sickness is due to for example local minor epidemics such as colds and flu, food poisoning down route, pressurisation related issues and so on there was no reason for it to affect cabin crew differently to pilots. Crew members generally tended to be younger and healthier than the general population, but still had statistically higher sickness rates. But after the pilots changed to a bid system the sickness rate went down, and at the time I looked at it (on behalf of a company medical chief) the cabin crew had something like 5 times as much sickness as the pilots. They had to carry a much bigger relative headcount to deal with the short term instability their own system created, with the attendant cost overhead. However, their management couldn’t accept the idea of giving power (and responsibility) back to mere employees to remove what this self-induced “social" sickness.
I have no idea what happens today. though I have my suspicions.

[Uplinker]

That's because the difference between a happy young face and a grumpy old face is more visible in the television industry.

Sorry, I should have been more specific; I meant those behind the camera, i. e. the techs, not the "talent" in front of the camera. I don't know about actor's or presenter's Ts & Cs.

[172_driver]

slast,

Nice post, well put! My employer uses PBS (Preferential Bidding System). We do complain about it of course (we're pilots) but historically I have been assigned fair rosters. I don't know in detail its inner workings. I believe you're somewhat dependent on all other colleagues' bids as the computer runs a series of iterations trying to maximize the amount of points you have assigned to your different bids. The employer is in possession of a control knob where it can set a cap on fulfillment to prevent inefficient rosters.

I have heard terms such as BidLine, TripTrade etc. Are they the same? What do US carriers use? How do they work? Are all trips published and can be bidden, then assigned according to seniority? Hence why you can expect a lot of reserve as a new Captain because none wants it?

[blind pew]

I couldn't wait to be a captain although I turned down a DEC on a 146 a few years before it happened. Being a captain was in many ways far easier than a co-pilot as one had to fit in with the skipper's abilities without flying better nor being too subservient. I've been b@llocked both for not interfering, interfering, or doing it too late. Sitting on your hands watching a guy mess it up especially on my first look see rotation on the VC10 which resulted in the demise of a pax isn't easy. BUT..after I got my command dynamics changed as a MC spoke to me and said you can't be one of the gang, the youngsters look up to you and you have to accept that roll. It doesn't help the jealousy of some ground staff who think that a foreigner is taking there place. I also worked the system and could afford 2 months off unpaid leave to go sailing with the family or just stay at home. Being older and having much older children than my contemporaries meant I had a month off every school summer holidays, christmas at home or with my family on a long range rotation. The money wasn't important as I was paid more than I needed.
MHO is for family life the FR guys have a good deal, Sometimes I only had eight days off at home a month which reflected harshly on my family; its very common that pilots children have mental health issues and it doesn't help when so called mates look up your roster and try and get a leg over your crumpet.
I did a couple of flights with the then British Aerobatic gliding champion, who had set a couple of world paragliding records with his twin brother who died of aerotoxic syndrome; he was able to be the top of the FO list on the 787 (no bleed air aircon) and run a successful aerobatic team as well as doing cream trips to fly in the Andes...don't blame him although I only got into adrenaline junkie after I prematurely lost my license and my kids went to uni or work.
I regret the long term health problems that the career gave me but that's the luck of the draw and have had opportunities that very few can dream of and used them to the best of my abilities.

[krismiler]

Rotating seniority / bid groups sound like a great alternative to me - 4 groups, every three months your group is one place more senior than it was last month, and three months of the year even the most senior have to do weekends, rough trips etc. Maintain seniority within the group so worst case senior pilot is 1/4 off the bottom.

Emirates do this with three bid groups rotating on a monthly basis, everyone gets their share of the good and the bad.


The downside was mandatory retirement at 55, but as that had been a known factor since signing on it did not give me personally any cause for complaint, I was happy to go and do something else.

At which stage you could go to Gulf Air or Air Lanka on the L1011, or SQ on the B747 and fly for another 5-10 years while drawing a BA pension. Later on the expanding LCCs were very happy to have highly experienced DECs and trainers join them, balancing out the 200hr F/Os and 3000hr Captains.

[Busdriver01]

Good luck getting the Senior Pilots voting for that.

I'm fully aware that they wont vote for it and that it's a non-starter. But i do think that the current system where those at the top get *everything* they want and those at the bottom nothing, is unsustainable and almost immoral. We all signed up to be a pilot, we all knew that involved weekends/nights. Everyone at the bottom expects to do this. Those at the top should be doing their fair share (less, but still some) too. Their social lives/time off is not more valuable than someone junior.

[slast]

At which stage you could go to Gulf Air or Air Lanka on the L1011, or SQ on the B747 and fly for another 5-10 years while drawing a BA pension. Later on the expanding LCCs were very happy to have highly experienced DECs and trainers join them, balancing out the 200hr F/Os and 3000hr Captains.
A friend a couple of years older than me did just that, went to SQ. Before leaving it seems he had persuaded his wife to regard it as "five lost years, after which they would be set up for life". To maximise the financial benefits he'd also changed his domicile (to Cyprus I think?) for tax reasons. Bumped into him a few years later in SIN, where he would come to the most popular BA crew pub. He said it was a miserable existence, the working atmosphere was much worse than BA, had lost contact with many friends in the UK and with a dying parent couldn't return without exceeding UK days and losing the tax perk. He also died relatively young so didn't really collect the planned golden benefits. So while you are quite right; as I said it didn't appeal to me one bit. But each to their own!

[FLCH]

The title should really read Nobody wants to be a Captain [due to seniority-based schedule, where the old and the senior get whatever they want, and the young and the junior get screwed].
The old and the senior were once young and junior…

[megan]

The old and the senior were once young and junior…So that makes it OK then? Once we were able to own slaves.

[hans brinker]

The title should really read Nobody wants to be a Captain [due to seniority-based schedule, where the old and the senior get whatever they want, and the young and the junior get screwed].

The old and the senior were once young and junior…

So that makes it OK then? Once we were able to own slaves.

No, that is not what FLCH said. But I will say, I believe seniority is better than having DECs come in while you have the experience and years with a company to upgrade. I have worked under both. Upgraded ahead of a few because merit. And everyone was junior at some point, and most will be senior too. Not exactly the same as owning slaves....

[megan]

hans, what some of us are saying is you're employed as a pilot, why does seniority give you the privilege to fly the cream trips and not the dirt, don't know if it's still the case, but I remember the stories of senior folk only pulling reserve and doing as little flying as possible. Because that's how it's been done in the past is not an argument of why it should continue. One of the reasons why the young don't want an upgrade and going back to shoveling dirt. Personally never worked under a seniority system, all our work and important days were shared equitably. Having DEC and such is a different argument.

[dr dre]

Emirates do this with three bid groups rotating on a monthly basis, everyone gets their share of the good and the bad.

The only problem with this is that system is difficult to implement in an already established system where senior pilots are unwilling to give up seniority or senior pilots dominate unions.

Easier to implement in an airline that is new or doesn’t have strong unions. I agree that type of rostering is much better for the pilot group as a whole.

[Bogner]

Personally never worked under a seniority system, all our work and important days were shared equitably.

Genuine question, but I f you’ve never worked under that type of system, why the strong opinion shouting it down?

[Flying Wild]

No, that is not what FLCH said. But I will say, I believe seniority is better than having DECs come in while you have the experience and years with a company to upgrade. I have worked under both. Upgraded ahead of a few because merit. And everyone was junior at some point, and most will be senior too. Not exactly the same as owning slaves....

Then do the upgrade. My company only brings in DECs when the internal pool of upgrades has dried up. The advantage of DEC is that you don't start at the bottom of the pile again as an FO when you move company. This, to me, is the biggest fallacy with aviation. All that experience which one may have as a Capt, wasted back in the RHS for years to come, because of a Seniority based system instigated in the 60s to keep things good for the old boys.

[hans brinker]

Then do the upgrade. My company only brings in DECs when the internal pool of upgrades has dried up. The advantage of DEC is that you don't start at the bottom of the pile again as an FO when you move company. This, to me, is the biggest fallacy with aviation. All that experience which one may have as a Capt, wasted back in the RHS for years to come, because of a Seniority based system instigated in the 60s to keep things good for the old boys.

I've taken first available my last 3 companies.... Started at the bottom 4 times without complaining. And I have seen DECs that were absolutely worse than the FOs that didn't get a chance to upgrade.... If you get a chance at DEC, you should absolutely be behind all the FOs who were hired before you. Nothing to do with protecting the good old boys. It benefits all pilots. If you allow people to bypass seniority you allow the company to take the lowest bidder. We need solidarity amongst us so we can keep work rules and pay rates. The way to enforce that is to have unions, contracts and seniority. Not a single legacy will entertain DECs and they all have seniority. I worked in the EU for years, in the US now, am with the lowest paid ULCC and make $350K/year working 15 days a month. SENIORITY.

And if you think your experience is wasted if you are in the right seat, you don't belong in the left seat.

[bafanguy]

If you get a chance at DEC, you should absolutely be behind all the FOs who were hired before you. Nothing to do with protecting the good old boys.

hans,

Your statement is spot on. As you know but our compatriots elsewhere might not know, a DEC in a US seniority system may be hired as a captain but still has the seniority number of a new-hire F/O. This means that all the F/Os senior to the DEC will push him down every time they decide to take the upgrade.

We see in the regional segment that DECs are in a perpetual juniority hell where they are on reserve forever and their lot in life gets worse every time a F/O senior to them upgrades and pushes them down even more.

DECs are a desperate compromise attempt to deal with the captain/F/O imbalance in the regionals.

And no, there won't be any DECs at the likes of DL, UAL, AA, et al. I'm a little surprised the regionals can get away with it.

I'm glad to hear your gig here has worked out well for you.

[megan]

Genuine question, but I f you’ve never worked under that type of system, why the strong opinion shouting it downYou don't have to have worked under a system to see its inherent unfairness, as I said, FO's are not taking the upgrades because of the inequities of the seniority system. Used to work for an organisation where physical floggings were part of the discipline system that could be imposed by the captain in the old days, for some unknown reason it's no longer permitted. :p I'm sure there are managers about who would love to see its reintroduction, for productivity reasons you understand.

[Bogner]

...as I said, FO's are not taking the upgrades because of the inequities of the seniority system. ...

Or, are they not taking an upgrade due to the qualities of life they have as a senior FO? It's not the same as unfairness, it's just weighing up two options.

How many of these senior FOs, who have control of their rosters, who can get weekends off and get their choice of lucrative trips would be willing to cede control so that a new entrant FO can have them instead? Does the problem only rear its head when it affects them?

The problem, as I see it, is that either system is fine as long as it doesn't change. If you go from a permanent seniority system to a rotating seniority system (or vice versa), then someone will have to miss out in order to share the spoils.
Obviously, in this example, those who have to give something up are those that have spent their time being junior and are now senior. They've 'served their time', and just when they should be getting more control they lose it in the interests of fairness. How, if at all, should they be compensated?
More money? More leave?
Should they just be ignored and it accepted that there are always some losers...? Is that any more, or less, fair than permanent seniority?

A lot of people seem to join this industry now having done little reading of T&Cs of the company they join. Not quite working at the 'Thinking Ahead' level.



Also, Hans is bang on when he says:
"and if you think your experience is wasted in the right seat, you don't belong in the left seat"

[megan]

Or, are they not taking an upgrade due to the qualities of life they have as a senior FOSpot on Bogner, it illustrates the problem of the seniority system, the senior FO is writing his own roster, more or less, while the folk at the bottom virtually get no choice, why would he go for an upgrade and return to the bottom. Perhaps we'll see a future where there are no captains as no one wants an upgrade. :p It'll all be fixed when fully autonomous aircraft are the go. ;)

[global2express]

You might be a little too optimistic there, I have flown with FOs who seemed to be quite happy to do the fuel checks and nothing beyond that; for ⅔ of a captain's salary this is actually pretty sweet deal.

[WannabeBus]

Those "...at the top of the list..." didn't have the power to create the seniority system; they merely operate within that system. It was created by broader forces at work beyond the reach and influence of any demographic.

How else would you propose to distribute the flying ? A system where no one has any choice or control over his monthly fate ? Pawns every minute of every month at the whim of management ? Depend on the management drones to be "fair" to all concerned ?

The seniority system puts order in the game.

Regardless of the profession or job, someone has to follow the circus elephants with a bucket and shovel. Given a bit of time, they will pass that bucket and shovel to someone else. It all evens out in the end.

That's how my legacy airline operated. I didn't see myself having a good lifestyle in 20 years time (I was LHS on a twin widebody at the time), a senior captain would be getting similar rosters as a fresh junior captain on the same fleet. I looked around, at the deteriorating work conditions as a tech crew around the region - more work, less leave, losing our first class travel, etc, etc. As some one said, the golden years were over.
I had an opportunity to set up my own business, be my own boss, not have my life dictated by schedulers and having to go "beg" them for annual leave or specific off days. I got to go to all my kids events, was home on weekends, holidays, got regular sleep, decided when I would and could go on holiday. Cons - no more "glamorous lifestyle", I heat up my own meals at work, get my own drinks, less income - but no regrets.

[3Greens]

That's how my legacy airline operated. I didn't see myself having a good lifestyle in 20 years time (I was LHS on a twin widebody at the time), a senior captain would be getting similar rosters as a fresh junior captain on the same fleet. I looked around, at the deteriorating work conditions as a tech crew around the region - more work, less leave, losing our first class travel, etc, etc. As some one said, the golden years were over.
I had an opportunity to set up my own business, be my own boss, not have my life dictated by schedulers and having to go "beg" them for annual leave or specific off days. I got to go to all my kids events, was home on weekends, holidays, got regular sleep, decided when I would and could go on holiday. Cons - no more "glamorous lifestyle", I heat up my own meals at work, get my own drinks, less income - but no regrets.
so good you spend your days off posting on a pilots forum. 😉

[wondering]

Heard of a very senior UA FO on the 787. He basically writes his own schedule and makes 240k a year. (More after the new contract?) He can't be bothered to upgrade to LHS 737 to make maybe 300k and loose control over his life

[Anilv]

My guess is with the imbalance of Captain vs F/Os the Captains have a less desirable roster/lifestyle so the canny F/Os are waiting for the situation to stabilise before committing themselves. I guess the airline has to take the blame for not opening up LHS slots earlier. The sad thing is there will be pressure to pass the marginal ones which wouldn't be the case if the number of applicants is high.

anilv

[Check Airman]

Heard of a very senior UA FO on the 787. He basically writes his own schedule and makes 240k a year. (More after the new contract?) He can't be bothered to upgrade to LHS 737 to make maybe 300k and loose control over his life

If he’s making 240k a year, he’s either not that senior, or he has a VERY comfortable schedule.

[hans brinker]

If he’s making 240k a year, he’s either not that senior, or he has a VERY comfortable schedule.

Exactly. That is is just line guarantee.

[Flyg1rl]

You can't blame him for that.

[1southernman]

You can't blame him for that.

Nope you can't :)

[Ignition Override]

Why take a Huge loss of seniority with such a much reduced chance of having holidays off, plus other unique personal events you want to attend? :suspect:

Most guys I knew who flew/ still fly in a widebody right seat had no set plans on whether or When they would put in the bid for the left seat -- especially on the smaller narrowbodies.

They -- also -- really didn't want the extra legs to fly in high-workload narrowbody, with so many more weather problems and the rush (often no time to eat) involved with hurrying from one jet to a Different jet at a busy hub - jammed with passengers / Punters.

[36050100]

If airlines can't incentivise folks to go for a Captaincy because the a copilot job is so cushy, you would think it would be in their power to adjust Terms and Conditions so that an incentive to go for promotion is provided. Not something that can be done overnight, but a RHS pay freeze to widen the differential pay would, over time, provide an incentive.

[hunterboy]

Blimey, that’s one way of doing it. Increasing the salary of Captains would be another.

[36050100]

Increasing the salary of Captains would be another.

It sounds though that going for promotion isn't about the cash, especially when a copilot can make in excess of $240k per year. The airlines can't do much about altering copilot lifestyle with the embedded seniority system, so they have to do it with cash in the long run. I'm not so cold hearted to say that copilot pay should be cut, hence a freeze to copilot pay to widen differentials over time to incentivise promotion.

[Check Airman]

That type of pay deal would never be agreed to. If they find it necessary, the company would simply displace some of the first officers to captain positions.

[Busdriver01]

Seniority may have worked previously, but I feel especially since covid everyone (not just in aviation) has realised how much more important home/family/social life is and have readjusted their aims in life accordingly. I certainly have and i'm not the only one I know who's done similar. Why would I want to sacrifice the part of my life I really care about, just to sit in the LHS and earn similar (or less) but with absolutely zero control over my roster? For a company I know will drop me in a heartbeat and to whom I truly don't matter at all. No thanks.

[neville_nobody]

Seniority comes from a world where people retired in their mid 50's (and died in their 60-70s) so there was always turnover. Given the continual upward push of retirement age of airline pilots seniority becomes a problem in that Captains hold rank for a long time, blocking any promotion. Getting into major airlines has always been difficult and FO's previously were not promoted young and by the time command comes around they have already organised their lives. This whole issue is a big one for airlines generally and I don't think just throwing money at it will make it work. Many things happen in life that are only happen once and pilots have probably woken up to this more so than in the past. Given the labour shortage of new recruits how airlines fix this will be interesting.

[1southernman]

"Flying the Line" Vol 1,2 is a good reference for Seniority history as is PPRuNe Forums " 26 Dec 2012 Seniority..."

[WillowRun 6-3]

There is something about FOs electing not to act upon opportunities to move to Captain that this SLF/attorney has been wondering about really since this thread opened up. Not about defending or attacking the seniority system and its impacts, and not about the necessity for individuals to elect career paths and choices which fit into their lives, rather than forcing their lives to fit into some pre-determined career path (which often isn't much of a path - more of a holding pattern).

(In the law firms where I spent much of my career, concern about the cadre of most successful partners "pulling the ladder up" thereby stranding those on the verge of partnership was an often voiced complaint. On the other hand, in the unionized labor force in the steel mills of youth, the guys - and the few ladies there were - wanted their name to be the answer to the question, "who is the older man?" Of course it was a more narrowly defined kind of work. Still, I recall (with sparks inside the flameproofs) the two-week stint when I had successfully bid into an open slot on the big Caster machine . . . many heats of molten steel ago. So I haven't had a definitively "for" or "against" experience with the seniority system.)

In the past, the traveling public, and along with it probably most people in the legislative and regulatory world who dealt with commercial aviation, viewed service and seniority as a First Officer as a kind of "extra training and experience" stint which it was at least highly desirable, if not actually necessary, to complete in order to become a Captain. At least as I recall hearing about this perspective back in those years, the LHS (if an SLF can use this terminology, which I sometimes doubt) is Captain and Pilot In Command. Which - again as I recall hearing about this idea - is an aspirational attainment, something to be strived for, not intuitive, not only the ability, or KSAs (knowledge, skills and abilities) to operate the aircraft safely and properly.

One time a Captain compared the role of Captain-and-PIC to something the aviator thought I might comprehend. We had been talking about favorite types of cars, motor vehicles. He asked me if I had ever heard of pilots referred to as . . . , "Drivers?", I asked. In fact I had first read that term in letters to AW&ST in or around Summer of 1976. Anyway, that was the term the aviator had in mind. He asked me, when I drive, do I have a sense of the dimension of my car, to each side, really around 360 degrees, so that when I can't actually see the clearance between the fenders and (for example) those pesky yellow-painted poles that can have a habit of jumping into the narrow parking spaces in the underground garage, I still manage to avoid scraping them? I said something about, yeah, most of the time.

Well, this very patient aviator who was taking the time to try to get something through my dense skull then said, can you imagine the transformation in your dimensional perception, your awareness of the dimension of the vehicle you're driving, required when it is not a sedan or some other everyday motor vehicle, but a commercial airliner? He told me, you in the traveling public think we're doing the pre-flight walk-around to make sure everything looks right. That is part of it, but it's also to refresh the dimensional perception. It's a big thing, in its actual physcial dimensions, and it's kind of a balancing act between an art and a science to keep the right perception active at all times - at all times.

But he went on. He told me that when an individual is driving their car, let's say they have their kids or whole family, or friends .... that's a level of "dimensional perception" too. Your responsibility behind the wheel is held on behalf of the entire group of individuals, be they family, or friends or .... (and without elaboration) passengers in your taxicab. Now, scale that up to hundreds of peoeple, in the biggest jets even hundreds of families.

Don't accuse me of disregarding the professional burdens of the RHS. And I'll withdraw this post and apologize if the role of PIC shifts depending on which pilot is PF and which is PM, if I have misunderstood. What I'm wondering about, is there not a higher calling in the LHS? - work-life balance writ much larger, for the many families traveling whether all on the manifest or some "traveling" at home waiting for word of arrival safely; for the aviation safety ecosystem? Yes, go to the soccer games and practices and all the recitals, all the everythings. But don't lose sight of the importance of taking that hard-sweated, hard-tolerated, sometimes verging on unbearable, struggle to cope with the RHS pressures and even unjustified Mickey Mouse games by managament, and then leveraging into the wisdom needed for the combined role of Captain and PIC. And I don't mean Captain is God. I mean, absolute impeccable flying instincts proven over a long time.

I would not interrupt talk amongst pilots without some connection to looming issues. If there is nothing so important in RHS experience that the industry (writ in its largest sense) needs to have transitioned over to the LHS (again, premised on the understanding that Captain and PIC together define the role) in order to thrive in future years, what does that say about controversies about single-pilot cockpits? And about more autonomous flight operations altogether? Is the fact that FOs who decline the "down-shift" associated with Captain have both clarity and certainty that they're making the best choices for themselves just not relevant to thse looming issues? . . . and what if those issues in some sense won't wait for the kids to grow up and for life perspectives to change?. But hey, I should be retired, so.

[321XLR]

Senior FO at most all the major US carriers is a better QOL than junior CA, with very little change to earnings.

Senior wide body FO is probably the best job of any, for US airlines.

It is all about time with loved ones, time off, etc stuff. Money is not everything. Your teenage daughter probably would like you to attend her birthday, she probably does not care how many stripes are on your shoulder.

my opinions....

[InnerLoop]

There are arguments that career advancement should be based on “merit”, as is (allegedly) the case in many other professions when deciding on a business employee's progress. The problem with that is, who determines relative merit or suitability?

You fly an ILS the sim (flight director and autothrottles off, and starting from clean configuration), and it scores you on airspeed/altitude/localizer/glideslope deviation. This number determines bid order. Who's in? :E

[slast]

you didn't mention autopilot though! Or maybe a monthly knockout arm-wrestling contest before the bids go in :E :E ?

[Longtimer]

Cage Match:)

[3Greens]

Cage Match:)
sticky biscuit contest? I’ll get my coat