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sconnors
9th Jul 2023, 18:56
Hi there,
I hold a class 2 medical (Class 1 = rejected), is there any chance for me to complete a CPL?
(I dont' wish to use it for financial gain/to instruct CPL)
I want to be a PPL instructor, but getting a job without a CPL is going to be difficult)
Is there the option of gaining a CPL with some limitation written into your licence if you are in a Class 2 Category?
Thanks,

Whopity
10th Jul 2023, 10:24
In the days when the CAA ran aircrew licensing it was possible to obtain a CPL with limitations to get around certain medical issues that prevented the issue of a Class 1 medical. This came to an end when we were subject to the les flexible EU rule book. Now that the CAA is supposedly back in charge again there should be some scope for flexibility. Perhaps you should make a case via your AME and see where you get to.

hobbit1983
10th Jul 2023, 13:27
Hi there,
I hold a class 2 medical (Class 1 = rejected), is there any chance for me to complete a CPL?
(I dont' wish to use it for financial gain/to instruct CPL)
I want to be a PPL instructor, but getting a job without a CPL is going to be difficult)
Is there the option of gaining a CPL with some limitation written into your licence if you are in a Class 2 Category?
Thanks,

I thought you could be a (paid) PPL instructor on a Class 2 these days? And if so, I think you'll not find it hard to get an FI job.

Whopity
10th Jul 2023, 13:57
You have not needed a CPL to be paid for instruction since 2012

MrAverage
10th Jul 2023, 14:25
Only one of our instructors has a Class 1 and only because he's still flying 380s...............................

All but one of us have CPL or ATPL

Manual Reversion
10th Jul 2023, 18:47
A long while ago, PPL holders who were instructors were issued with a BCPL which only required, as it was then a Class 3 medical. By definition, a CPL and an ATPL require a Class 1 medical, so I cant see how a CPL could be issued. That an instructor can be paid with a PPL is a good thing though. All the best with your quest.

Whopity
10th Jul 2023, 19:26
Not quite correct, a PPL Instructor needed a minimum of a Class 2 medical. An applicant for a professional licence required a Class 1 but, a BCPL holder restricted to Aerial Work only needed a Class 2.
The major stumbling block with the Class 1 was colour blindness and some CPLs were issued with a Night restriction to permit flight instruction only, no night or commercial operation. There probably isn't any reason to do that now as it can be done with a PPL.

Fl1ingfrog
10th Jul 2023, 22:25
Central Flight Training websiteFlight Instructor (Restricted) CertificateThe FI(R) course requires the applicant to have either a UK-FCL CPL, or a UK-FCL PPL with more than 200 hours total time, including 150 hours in command and passes in at least the UK CPL theory examinations. In addition to this, the pilot must have at least 30 hours on the class of aircraft on which the course is to be taken, and of these, five must be within the preceding six months.

The course consists of 30 hours of flight instruction with an approved FIC Instructor (up to 5 of these may be flown as mutual time with another Flight Instructor student), and at least 125 hours of groundschool. Upon completion of the course, an assessment of competence must be taken with an approved Flight Instructor Examiner, usually from our base airfield.

The supervisory restriction can be lifted once the instructor has completed at least 100 hours of flight instruction, and has authorised 25 student solo flights.

So no need to obtain a CPL but you do need to pass the CPL exams or higher as you choose in order to instruct for the PPL.

ifitaintboeing
11th Jul 2023, 08:45
The associated UK CAA and EASA reference for Flight Instructor certificate prerequisites is FCL.915.FI (b). UK Part-FCL regulation FCL.915.FI (b) can be found here:

https://regulatorylibrary.caa.co.uk/1178-2011/Content/Regs/04330_FCL.915FI_FI_Prerequisites.htm

ifitaint...

fly_webbv2
12th Jul 2023, 08:10
I have an FIC and CRI as a PPL, currently studying for CPL theory, no intention of getting the full CPL. All on a class two medical, you only need the theory exams to teach PPL. Without it you can teach but only LAPL AB initio, best of luck J

Aware
12th Jul 2023, 16:37
I think the point has been missed here, no you do not need a CPL to instruct, but most adverts for FI's I see, require minimum CPL plus FI. PPLs not accepted, silly really as its the applicant's skills as an FI that are important not the license they have. Maybe an insurance minimum I'm not sure.

Whopity
14th Jul 2023, 09:30
Aware
Thats what my initial answer was based upon. One can now argue that as a PPL holder can give remunerated instruction, there is no specific requirement to hold a CPL with other limitations. Equally there is no justification to not employ a PPL instructor who does not hold a CPL, it could be regarded as discrimination.

rudestuff
14th Jul 2023, 10:23
And what's wrong with a bit of discrimination? Surely an employer can set the bar to wherever they want it?

sconnors
16th Jul 2023, 21:56
Thank you all, very interesting answers getting a bit of a history on how its all evolved over the past few years. Im not sure its discrimination for a flight school to require it as having a CPL isnt a protected characteristic, I may approach the CAA directly and ask but as a CPL is no longer technically required, they may not understand my request, I guess it wont hurt to ask.

bingofuel
23rd Jul 2023, 19:13
I would have thought any decent flying school would welcome a non CPL instructor as they would not be going off to the airlines at the drop of a hat, but instructing because they actually want to.

Beethoven
23rd Jul 2023, 22:41
Could it be that the schools requiring their instructors to hold CPLs might want them to teach at CPL level as well as PPL. I'm an instructor on a PPL but am doing my CPL as the ATO I teach at also has commercial students that I can't yet teach, till I've got my own CPL.
Worth checking the training offered by those schools to see if that's the reason, though I agree that if the school only offers PPL training then it would be overkill.

TheOddOne
24th Jul 2023, 06:47
As a Head of Training, wanting to employ a FI, it's easy for me to check credentials on the ratings page of a licence, i.e. holds a CPL and SEP and FI ratings, current. I'm not sure how to check a PPL with SEP and FI has current passes in CPL exams. I guess the UK CAA issues a piece of paper with the results on, maybe it's just online these days, as with the PPL exams? Does the validity of the exams expire with time, if no CPL issued?
I don't have the time or resources to research these kinds of questions. Fortunately this has never arisen for me. A vanilla PPL with SEP and FI is of no use to me, I've yet to have a student actually just go for the LAPL, generally they can all obtain a Class 2 or Class 1 medical and will do in excess of the PPL hours during training.
We do mention the availability of the LAPL and its training requirements along with its limitations and everyone so far has opted for the PPL. The younger ones after a career need the PPL anyway and the older ones will inevitably take more than 45 hours.
There was a thing from AOPA about the dangers of using a PPL only holding instructor for anything other than LAPL instructing, a minefield I'd rather not enter.
TOO

fly_webbv2
24th Jul 2023, 10:34
As an aspiring FI with PPL only, FI/CRI and studying for CPL TX. Instructing is not an easy alternative, there are plenty of well qualified ATPL/ CPLís out there but I believe itís worth persevering and there is a role for PPL instructors. The exams are easily proven, the onus is on the job applicant. For a small fee the CAA will verify theoretical exam results. The exam expiry period is only in relation to pursuing a CPL or ATPL, the written can stand alone.

markkal
24th Jul 2023, 14:29
I am an FI(A) with ppl and theoretical CPL; I am now retired and did my FI(A) with FCL 905 aerobatics estension 15 years ago
I was lucky enough to even remove the restriction during the Jar/EASA transition.

I have been flying for 45 years, having owned advanced aerobatic aircrafts and trained with french world class coaches at huge expense out of passion and desire to improve and learn, and boy have I been and am still studying,mostly aerodynamics and UPRT related subjects just because I love it..

Have done my FI(A) to keep busy during my retirement, teaching PPL, LAPL, UPRT even as a part time activity.

Not having a full ATPL or CPL ( My theoretical CPL expired after 3 years and at the time had no need to completethe flying part) I later realised there are no prospects for being hired, nowhere.
Experience does not seem to interest anybody.

As fly_webby states, there is definitely a role for ppl instructors, but where ? Very frustrating indeed.

sconnors
24th Jul 2023, 19:03
I would have thought any decent flying school would welcome a non CPL instructor as they would not be going off to the airlines at the drop of a hat, but instructing because they actually want to.

Indeed, but perhaps they want all their instructors CPL-trained in order that they are of a specific "standard" (which I guess is within their right to do so), its just complex as an FI only requires a Class 2, therefore if one doesnt hold a class 1, no potential to 'show' what standard you are, it is what it is I guess, I'll run it by the CAA and give an update here, I'm aware of a few pilots with limitations wrtten into their ratings. Fingers crossed!

Fl1ingfrog
25th Jul 2023, 00:01
It cannot matter when instructing for the PPL whether you hold a CPL or not. The instructor without a CPL issued will have passed the same written examinations and have completed the same flight Instructor course followed by the same test of competency. The CPL flying course and test is for a different purpose.

The main benefit for me of the CPL is that they will have completed a flying course that offers a much more formalised navigation skill than the PPL. It has always been much clearer to me what I could expect from the CPL/FI for navigation training. Unfortunately the FI course allows for very little time to be given to navigation.

Does anyone know where the CAA list of annotations of privileges, that are entered into the instructors licence, can be found? I would expect to be able to identify the privileges of the FI at a glance.

Whopity
25th Jul 2023, 18:32
They are the same letters that are used in FCL.905 FI.FI Privileges and conditions

homeguard
26th Jul 2023, 12:23
Then as some CFIs have confirmed this makes it very difficult to be certain of the privileges of any PPL/Instructor that is employed. A CPL is not required to instruct for the PPL so the instructor certificate should unambiguously indicate whether they are restricted from teaching the PPL and show the restricted privileges that they do have.

The list of codes should also be published so that everyone can reference and understand them.

rarelyathome
26th Jul 2023, 22:47
Then as some CFIs have confirmed this makes it very difficult to be certain of the privileges of any PPL/Instructor that is employed. A CPL is not required to instruct for the PPL so the instructor certificate should unambiguously indicate whether they are restricted from teaching the PPL and show the restricted privileges that they do have.

The list of codes should also be published so that everyone can reference and understand them.

They are. Google CAP 1854

fly_webbv2
27th Jul 2023, 08:13
I am an FI(A) with ppl and theoretical CPL; I am now retired and did my FI(A) with FCL 905 aerobatics estension 15 years ago
I was lucky enough to even remove the restriction during the Jar/EASA transition.

I have been flying for 45 years, having owned advanced aerobatic aircrafts and trained with french world class coaches at huge expense out of passion and desire to improve and learn, and boy have I been and am still studying,mostly aerodynamics and UPRT related subjects just because I love it..

Have done my FI(A) to keep busy during my retirement, teaching PPL, LAPL, UPRT even as a part time activity.

Not having a full ATPL or CPL ( My theoretical CPL expired after 3 years and at the time had no need to completethe flying part) I later realised there are no prospects for being hired, nowhere.
Experience does not seem to interest anybody.

As fly_webby states, there is definitely a role for ppl instructors, but where ? Very frustrating indeed.


I make a point of contacting clubs. Pilot magazine publish a list each year. Write to all the CFIís, build a relationship. Youíve got the experience the CPL theory and flying credentials. Roles are advertised. Get proof of your CPL theory exams, apply, and keep applying. Iím hoping to do what you describe. It just takes time knocking on doors, people recruit people. Good luck

Fl1ingfrog
27th Jul 2023, 09:38
They are. Google CAP 1854

rarelyathome: Unfortunately cap 1854 does not; restrictions and limitations are not included nor how the certificate should be annotated: which is the point..

markkal
28th Jul 2023, 13:47
I make a point of contacting clubs. Pilot magazine publish a list each year. Write to all the CFIís, build a relationship. Youíve got the experience the CPL theory and flying credentials. Roles are advertised. Get proof of your CPL theory exams, apply, and keep applying. Iím hoping to do what you describe. It just takes time knocking on doors, people recruit people. Good luck

Thanks for your support, in the meantime i fly privately an XA42 I have with 2 other partners, so whatever happens I keep myself occupied every now and then :-)

Baronbombburst
29th Jul 2023, 20:54
Then as some CFIs have confirmed this makes it very difficult to be certain of the privileges of any PPL/Instructor that is employed. A CPL is not required to instruct for the PPL so the instructor certificate should unambiguously indicate whether they are restricted from teaching the PPL and show the restricted privileges that they do have.

The list of codes should also be published so that everyone can reference and understand them.

Is it that difficult to read said PPL instructors licence? An instructor without CPL theory has 'Lapl only' written on their Licence.

The List of codes is published in FCL 905.

Whopity
3rd Aug 2023, 15:56
An instructor without CPL theory has 'Lapl only' written on their Licence.
They do now, but initially they did not and unless they have updated their licence it probably still doesn't!

PeeToo
12th Oct 2023, 23:43
Supply and demand I guess. When instructors are in short supply, Heads of Training will suddenly discover they CAN read a PPL licence and work out or verify the instructing privileges, after all!