View Full Version : Flight Deck Jumpseat
srjumbo747
26th Apr 2023, 10:21
Do many countries still have no access to jumpseats for friends and family other than the U.K.
Or I could ask it another way. Which countries do?
Consol
26th Apr 2023, 13:38
Do many countries still have no access to jumpseats for friends and family other than the U.K.
Or I could ask it another way. Which countries do?
Who wants to know?
oceancrosser
26th Apr 2023, 13:39
The land of the free…:ugh:
ATC Watcher
26th Apr 2023, 13:50
There are a still a few “reasonable” places where you can still do this under certain pre -conditions but really not for advertising on Internet.
Telekon
26th Apr 2023, 15:13
Has there ever been a serious effort to establish a CASS style system in Europe, and how did such a system come about in the US? I'm guessing through ALPA pressure?
Right20deg
27th Apr 2023, 08:02
Would you really risk sitting behind an Air France crew and the prospect of observing CRM , attitudes and behaviours from the 1970s and fragrantly stuck there. Not me. Give me a spikey gel - too cool for you....... any day !
srjumbo747
27th Apr 2023, 08:09
Who wants to know?
I’d like to know! That’s why I asked!
Gordomac
27th Apr 2023, 08:43
Srjumbo, on the surface, a not unreasonable question and, on the surface, reasonable but protective replies.
A "grey" area because most airlines do not regard the FD as an extention of the passenger cabin. Definitely, after 9-11, very strict rules were imposed regarding even "access" to the FD, let alone general carriage for pax.
It is "grey" because old-school Captains will regard the entire aircraft as "their" aircraft and enjoy thinking outside of the box in modifying rules, specially when away from Base.
I do not think you will get a list of airlines that allow friends and family on the FD, if indeed, there are any.
I found that it really depends from country to country and airline to airline. However, to protect those that continue to use common sense and give their captains discretion, I will not name those airlines.
Consol
27th Apr 2023, 10:12
I’d like to know! That’s why I asked!
Rules regarding flight deck access are security sensitive and not suitable for publishing on line. There are also some in the journalistic profession who like to produce inaccurate, often false, castastrophised stories about aviation.
SR, this was your first post on this forum.
Probably best if mods closed this thread.
WillowRun 6-3
27th Apr 2023, 14:18
This SLF/attorney concurs with Consol -
but before the thread might be closed, the days of the "fam" - for familiarization - flights for ATCOs in the U.S. were quite a long time ago, as I recall. So much has changed, in the "aviation domain" and in general terms in the countries (and globally) where civil aviation operates, that any significant expansion of existing methods for allowing flight deck presence should be defined from the ground up. Fresh, clean sheet of paper.
For proof, today no one in their right mind speaks of flight deck access and security rules using words and phrases harkening back to that 1960s and early 70s television (or television-like) drama, Havana in Cuba.
DaveReidUK
27th Apr 2023, 14:56
SR, this was your first post on this forum.
No, it wasn't, not by a mile.
back to Boeing
27th Apr 2023, 15:46
If you really want to know which airlines allow non rev in the flight deck, have a look at your airlines ID travel agreements with other airlines. Many allow it.
Consol
27th Apr 2023, 22:03
No, it wasn't, not by a mile.
I stand corrected but still not suitable for discussion on line.
MerseyView
27th Apr 2023, 22:34
I am only aware of the UK, out of all Western European countries, banning non crew in the cockpit in their airspace. As always, they (we) believe they know better than Johnny Foreigner.
Right20deg
28th Apr 2023, 04:46
I am only aware of the UK, out of all Western European countries, banning non crew in the cockpit in their airspace. As always, they (we) believe they know better than Johnny Foreigner.
That's correct. Think ....screening , security, Lubitz.de Data share, med share.
West Coast
28th Apr 2023, 05:05
This SLF/attorney concurs with Consol -
but before the thread might be closed, the days of the "fam" - for familiarization - flights for ATCOs in the U.S. were quite a long time ago, as I recall. So much has changed, in the "aviation domain" and in general terms in the countries (and globally) where civil aviation operates, that any significant expansion of existing methods for allowing flight deck presence should be defined from the ground up. Fresh, clean sheet of paper.
For proof, today no one in their right mind speaks of flight deck access and security rules using words and phrases harkening back to that 1960s and early 70s television (or television-like) drama, Havana in Cuba.
Just verified in our Flight Operations Manual, FAA ATC with proper documentation are currently authorized to ride the JS. Same for a lot of others besides FAA.
Gordomac
28th Apr 2023, 09:10
Scrumbo did ask, specifically, abiout "family and friends".
He didn't ask about FAA inspectors, ID holders, Training Captains, CAA inspectors, really pretty female hosties etc.
Whatabout the owner/CEO who was on a cheeky jolly but must get back for Board room meeting regarding the future of the company. Begs for a set and tells all to keep hush ? - What would you do ? Happened to me !
But, as is often the case with PPRuNe, due to a majority of British and American members, many answers are based on the strict CAA and FAA policies. There are many other aviation authorities in the world and many of those are not as strict. All I'm saying is that outside the USA and the UK it's not so black and white.
Gordomac
29th Apr 2023, 09:05
Absolutely right FUMR. After almost 20 years with a ME carrier, I can attest to that too !
flash8
1st May 2023, 18:38
It is "grey" because old-school Captains will regard the entire aircraft as "their" aircraft and enjoy thinking outside of the box in modifying rules, specially when away from Base.
My mind springs back to Pablo.
Aleks93
4th May 2023, 05:16
I would say this more depends on the airline, not country that much. Some airlines allow friends and family on the jump, but it is still CPT that takes final decision
Dingowalkabout
5th May 2023, 00:09
Not down under….
AerocatS2A
5th May 2023, 00:31
Not down under….
Australia has **** jump seating rules but there are other countries in the region with much a more friendly attitude to it all.
JimT87
13th May 2023, 08:22
It's high time for a review of jump seat rules over here. Not sure if many 7 year olds can pose a threat
hans brinker
13th May 2023, 15:39
It's high time for a review of jump seat rules over here. Not sure if many 7 year olds can pose a threat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
AerocatS2A
13th May 2023, 23:55
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
Right. Let's not let anyone at all in the jumpseat in case the captain invites them to sit in the pilot's seat and manipulate the controls. Or we could allow reasonable flightdeck access on the basis that the flight crew aren't complete buffoons.
Gordomac
14th May 2023, 08:53
Flight deck "access" and "use of jumpseat" are different. Broadbrush rules swept in after 9-11. Interpretation rule-bending became the norm.
Long time ago, Pushy Exec demanded use of a FD jumpseat. Reluctant Capt had heart attack just before V1. FO controlled, stopped, got the Skip to Hospital and gave the Exec a full debrief !
The Company DFO ruled that the Flight deck jump seats were no longer to be used as "an extention of the cabin". Good decision, no messing and we all supported.
"Access" is another matter and we all now what happened after 9-11.
Glory days are well over. I was granted many FD visits as a kid during summer holls. After a long visit, super MEA Viscount Skipper let me stay for landing & gave me a pair of MEA wings. I was 6.
As a Crew rostering clerk, I pursuaded many Captains to allow me a FD trip (most days off). One empty leg return to Gatters, Chief Pilot of the airline put me in his seat, RHS was a Senior Capt, Flight Engineer. I flew the big beast (Trainee PPL, 3 hours on Bolkow Junior) until girls down the back complained of being sick..
Decades on. Lots of lessons on. Most could see sense in complying with black & white Company procedures. Few would "nudge, nudge-wink,wink" and bend the rules eh ? Depends how pretty they are, I guess.
Squawk7777
14th May 2023, 20:15
Would you really risk sitting behind an Air France crew and the prospect of observing CRM , attitudes and behaviours from the 1970s and fragrantly stuck there. Not me. Give me a spikey gel - too cool for you....... any day !
I would. And I have. No issues.
I fly for a legacy airline in the US, which used to advertise that they train the best pilots in the world. I'd give the AF pilots actually higher marks than my own airline.
This comment above is this typical "I am better than you" condescending rubbish. I flew for a UK airline for a year and all I can say is that the UK is better in not making certain things public. Had two events that triggered MoRs, yet nothing was ever public/searchable. The common excuse or pretext is "that's procedure", it seems no more thinking is allowed. Don't start with the (non-existing) hand-flying skills.
We all know that our own poo doesn't stink.
Yes, all UK airlines are SUPERIOR to all the other airlines in the WORLD. Happy?
B Fraser
18th May 2023, 20:14
I am only aware of the UK, out of all Western European countries, banning non crew in the cockpit in their airspace. As always, they (we) believe they know better than Johnny Foreigner.
That's interesting. I have jumpseated in UK airspace on several occasions with different airlines since 9/11. Common sense prevailed.
kriskross
19th May 2023, 07:54
On UK airlines? If so you shouldn't have unless CAA rules have changed in the last few years since I retired>
B Fraser
19th May 2023, 09:19
I'll just say that was with the full consent of all involved. Most enjoyable.
taffyhammer
24th May 2023, 14:13
Occasionally operating as a flying spanner on unsupported routes, permission has to be granted by company ops even for a company engineer to sit on the jump seat.
Chiefttp
24th May 2023, 20:59
A squadron-mate of mine who flies for a large U.S. carrier got himself in a bit of a pickle after his Son was bumped off the standby list, and he decided to let him sit in the cockpit JS. The gate agent snitched on him and he got a short vacation out of that incident.
Jeff320
31st May 2023, 16:46
Would you really risk sitting behind an Air France crew and the prospect of observing CRM , attitudes and behaviours from the 1970s and fragrantly stuck there. Not me. Give me a spikey gel - too cool for you....... any day !
What a stupid thing to say… what kind of nonsense is that?
The thread starter asks about which airline allow people to seat in the cockpit, how is your reply relevant?
As an Air France captain, I am deeply offended by your comment. Have you ever been in an AF cockpit? Have you ever attended one of our CRM training session? Are you even involved in the AF training department? I guess the answer is no so please, talk about what you know and refrain from criticising others when you have no clue or any knowledge whatsoever.
sudden twang
1st Jun 2023, 10:02
What a stupid thing to say… what kind of nonsense is that?
The thread starter asks about which airline allow people to seat in the cockpit, how is your reply relevant?
As an Air France captain, I am deeply offended by your comment. Have you ever been in an AF cockpit? Have you ever attended one of our CRM training session? Are you even involved in the AF training department? I guess the answer is no so please, talk about what you know and refrain from criticising others when you have no clue or any knowledge whatsoever.
Stupid thing to say….. agreed
not relevant ….. agreed
deeply offended …… understandable
been in an AF cockpit etc ….. no idea
No clue or knowledge…..
well to be fair with CVRs FDRs QARs and official reports there are some clues when comparing AF 447 in 2009 AF15 in 2011 and AF11 in 2022
in my honest opinion.
But back to the thread I’d happily take any AF JS to get to or from work.
Also interested in this as a US Pilot. I'm mainly interested in speaking with someone from AirBaltic about it. I've got some friends in Latvia that I haven't see in a while. I'm totally on board with respecting the sensitivity of this issue but without any euro pilot friends I don't know where to start. Willing to provide a picture of my ID or any other info confirming my credentials.
twentyfivehundred220
4th Sep 2023, 06:16
Also interested in this as a US Pilot. I'm mainly interested in speaking with someone from AirBaltic about it. I've got some friends in Latvia that I haven't see in a while. I'm totally on board with respecting the sensitivity of this issue but without any euro pilot friends I don't know where to start. Willing to provide a picture of my ID or any other info confirming my credentials.
Hi! Are you planning to fly as an ID passenger with airBaltic?
Hi! Are you planning to fly as an ID passenger with airBaltic?
Yes sir I sure would be.
krismiler
4th Sep 2023, 14:25
In Singapore, only flight and cabin crew are allowed to use the jump seat, not even the ground staff let alone family members.
downsouth
8th Sep 2023, 18:09
When flying for a private airline in South America, we were allowed to take passengers with ID Travel tickets on cabin JS (when flight overbooked), could be family members or employees older than 14 years old… As for the cockpit jump seat, we could only take pilots from any airline (with or without a ticket, only captain authorisation and they had to pay a little fee), and company employees with ID ticket who hold an aeronautical licence (pilot, cabin crew, mechanics and dispatchers). Seems complicated but it was the rules, and it worked perfectly for over 10 years. Now days companies are more strict regarding the use of JS… a few months ago, I was asked by an AF captain to land in the cockpit at USHUAIA (beautiful approach), and as much as i would have liked to let her watch the approach, I had to say no…
twentyfivehundred220
15th Sep 2023, 06:37
Yes sir I sure would be.
In that case you would be admitted to the cabin jump seats if captain and cabin crew agree. Flight deck admission during flight is a very slight chance, but mostly dependant on the captains decision.