767 vs 737 Classic cockpit set up?

[Uplinker]

I am Airbus FBW mainly, but was rated on B737 Classic for a short while. I am wondering how the '76 compares in terms of cockpit set up and manual switching required?

The '73 Classic required a lot of manual switching between various flight phases, e.g. Pitot heat, generators etc. (compared to Airbus FBW), and I am wondering if the '76 is similar or if most functions are automated on those aircraft.

Does the '76 have Fadecs, and how is Flex thrust set on take-off ? The '73 Classic requires PM to set the thrust manually for example.

[chimbu warrior]

A lot less switching on the B767. No generators or pitot heat to manualy switch. More automated than B737 Classic, although B767 is actually an older design.

Before start scan (fuel, pumps, hydraulic pumps, packs) is similar, after start and all other scans are simpler. If the B737 has 2 of something, then the B767 has 3 of them (engines excepted).

Yes B767 has FADEC.

More cockpit room, and foot and shoulder warmers as well.

[Denti]

Does the '76 have Fadecs, and how is Flex thrust set on take-off ? The '73 Classic requires PM to set the thrust manually for example.

Have flown the Classic for quite a while. Manual thrust setting was not required, except for the usual initial partial thrust (same as on the airbus actually), the rest was done by the autothrottle. No idea if very early MSNs had a different procedure. So no, manual take off thrust setting is not required usually. And yes, no FADEC needed for that.

[Capt Fathom]

Yes B767 has FADEC.

They didn’t until the late 90’s!

[tdracer]

They didn’t until the late 90’s!
Ah, you're off by a decade - the PW4000 FADEC was certified on the 767 in 1988. Specifically it depends on the engines on the 767. All early 767s (JT9D-7R4 and CF6-80A/A2) were hydromechanical fuel controls with 'Supervisory EEC' (basically a trimmer system to keep N1/EPR ~ constant with changing flight conditions). In 1988 the 767 was re-engined with PW4000 and CF6-80C2 PMC (i.e. non-FADEC, basically a supervisory EEC similar to the -80A). Some early CF6-80C2 powered 767s were 'provisioned' for FADEC - which came along a year or so later. Turned out the 'FADEC provisions' were totally inadequate and I don't believe any PMC aircraft were ever retrofit to FADEC.
For roughly 10 years, the -80C2 was available in both PMC and FADEC versions - buyer option (the FADEC had slightly better fuel burn than the PMC) - after that the PMC option was removed - an operator could only get the PMC if they'd previously purchased it.

From the flight deck, the PMC/FADEC difference was pretty close to transparent - the only real difference being the EEC switch in the overhead changed from "ON/OFF" on the PMC to "NORM/ALT" on the FADEC.

[tubby linton]

i am surprised that nobody has mentioned that the B737 has toggle switches and the B767 has push buttons and rotary selectors.

[tdracer]

The 767 was the first iteration of the "Quiet, Dark Cockpit" that has become standard on newer aircraft. In short - with few exceptions - an illuminated light meant something was wrong instead of normal operation. That was a pretty dramatic change from the 737 philosophy.

[Sea Plane Driver]

In a nutshell, the B-767 is a Cadillac compared to a classic 737 being a Lada..:ooh:

[oceancrosser]

Simple:

737 (any) Horrible cockpit and archaic systems
767 (any) Nice spacious cockpit and systems.

[Uplinker]

Thanks folks, keep it coming. Much appreciated :ok:

[Chiefttp]

Uplinker,
You will enjoy flying the 767. As others have said, a Cadillac, or Bentley for my UK friends. Beautiful flight control harmony, and very easy to fly…I’ve never heard of any pilot making a negative comment about a 767, however those who have migrated to the 777 will rank the “triple 7” above it..

[Central Scrutinizer]

Uplinker,
You will enjoy flying the 767. As others have said, a Cadillac, or Bentley for my UK friends. Beautiful flight control harmony, and very easy to fly…I’ve never heard of any pilot making a negative comment about a 767, however those who have migrated to the 777 will rank the “triple 7” above it..

I saw a documentary on the 777 where one of the launching airlines where on an ETOPS flight hours accumulation programme. The female Captain mentioned the 777 felt very easy and noble to fly, "like a Mercedes-Benz".

So what's better, a Mercedes-Benz, a Cadillac or a Bentley?

[Chiefttp]

So what's better, a Mercedes-Benz, a Cadillac or a Bentley?

I guess it’s generational, but they’re all complimentary.
https://youtu.be/1ouJ_WyS9v8
One of my favorite movie scenes ever!

[tdracer]

Uplinker,
You will enjoy flying the 767. As others have said, a Cadillac, or Bentley for my UK friends. Beautiful flight control harmony, and very easy to fly…I’ve never heard of any pilot making a negative comment about a 767, however those who have migrated to the 777 will rank the “triple 7” above it..
It shouldn't be a surprise that the 777 flightdeck as even better than the 767 - it was a direct evolution, using the same layout (the structural elements of the 767 and 777 flightdeck are nearly identical - as is the 757). The 777 flightdeck has 'lessons learned', plus over a decades worth of technological improvements compared to the 767.
The biggest difference between the 767 and 777 flightdecks are the 777s bigger display screens, plus making EICAS "Primary" allowed the deletion of most of the idiot lights in the 767. On the 767/757, EICAS wasn't considered to be the primary information source and wasn't on the battery, so just about everything needed a backup light or gauge for a loss of primary electrical power. Exception - the 767-400ER flight deck was derived from the 777 and EICAS was primary. At one time the plan was to incorporate the 767-400ER flight deck across the 757/767 line, but the combination of the lack of sales of the -400ER, plus declining interest in the 757/767 basically killed that.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Some useless piece of trivia: 757/767/737CL are all first generation EFIS. They don't have a PFD/ND, they have a EADI/EHSI instead (Electronic ADI, Electronic HSI).

It's intereting to me how even 757 pilots refer to the EADI/EHSI as PFD/ND. Either they know the correct term is EADI but say PFD instead because they think others won't know what they're talking about, or they don't know it's called an EADI. Never sure which is true.

[Denti]

Some useless piece of trivia: 757/767/737CL are all first generation EFIS. They don't have a PFD/ND, they have a EADI/EHSI instead (Electronic ADI, Electronic HSI).

It's intereting to me how even 757 pilots refer to the EADI/EHSI as PFD/ND. Either they know the correct term is EADI but say PFD instead because they think others won't know what they're talking about, or they don't know it's called an EADI. Never sure which is true.

Could you define both concepts? What is the difference between an EADI and a PFD as well as between an EHSI and a ND? To be fair, I’ve never flown the 757/767/777 in real life, only in the simulator, but i have flown the 737 classic and NG for quite a while and would be interested what the difference is between both concepts.

[Broomstick Flier]

EADI and EHSI stand for Electronic Attitude Display Indication and Electronic HSI, in their original inception they were electronic versions of their steam gauge counterparts.
The original EADI did not have a speed tape, hence the analogue velocimetre and all other items of the traditional instrument T. The speed tape became an option only later.
I understand that a PFD has all the necessary information in one single display.

[tdracer]

It may have been changed as some point, but every 767 I did a flight test on had Broomstick's definition of a PFD...

[stilton]

It shouldn't be a surprise that the 777 flightdeck as even better than the 767 - it was a direct evolution, using the same layout (the structural elements of the 767 and 777 flightdeck are nearly identical - as is the 757). The 777 flightdeck has 'lessons learned', plus over a decades worth of technological improvements compared to the 767.
The biggest difference between the 767 and 777 flightdecks are the 777s bigger display screens, plus making EICAS "Primary" allowed the deletion of most of the idiot lights in the 767. On the 767/757, EICAS wasn't considered to be the primary information source and wasn't on the battery, so just about everything needed a backup light or gauge for a loss of primary electrical power. Exception - the 767-400ER flight deck was derived from the 777 and EICAS was primary. At one time the plan was to incorporate the 767-400ER flight deck across the 757/767 line, but the combination of the lack of sales of the -400ER, plus declining interest in the 757/767 basically killed that.


I’ve flown the 757/67 with the ‘Classic’ set up and the 767-400 with the 777 type displays, I really liked the latter, a significant improvement and it’s a shame that update did not migrate to all variants


If I remember correctly a 757 was retrofitted and flight tested with these 764 displays ?

[Sea Plane Driver]

If I remember correctly a 757 was retrofitted and flight tested with these 764 displays ?

Not sure about 764 displays, but a company I worked for retrofitted most if not all 757/767 with so-called
Flat Panels: 2 big screens on each side of the cockpit with the latest and greatest of electronic displays,
probably 12-13 years ago,
No doubt the screens were full of information, but it seemed more like over-load:
One grew up flying DC-3s,
DC-8s and Classic 747, but finally had to join the Glass Age with a vintage 757, plenty information for a dinosaur
until the "Flat Panels" retrofit.:=
No idea if that was 764 displays, or some generic in-house retro-job.
Glad I am retired now.

[Denti]

EADI and EHSI stand for Electronic Attitude Display Indication and Electronic HSI, in their original inception they were electronic versions of their steam gauge counterparts.
The original EADI did not have a speed tape, hence the analogue velocimetre and all other items of the traditional instrument T. The speed tape became an option only later.
I understand that a PFD has all the necessary information in one single display.

Interesting, the „EADI“ on our classic 737 had both an altitude and speed tape. They missed stuff like navigation performance scales and GLS/IAN indications though that were standard equipment on our NGs, same as the vertical situation display on the ND that the classics did not have.

[Chiefttp]

My Company and another large freight operator has re-fitted all our 767 cockpits with new Flat Panel displays, similar to the 767-400

[FlyingStone]

Interesting, the „EADI“ on our classic 737 had both an altitude and speed tape.

Never seen a 737 classic with an altitude tape, do you happen to have a photo of that?

[rudestuff]

Some useless piece of trivia: 757/767/737CL are all first generation EFIS. They don't have a PFD/ND, they have a EADI/EHSI instead (Electronic ADI, Electronic HSI).

It's intereting to me how even 757 pilots refer to the EADI/EHSI as PFD/ND. Either they know the correct term is EADI but say PFD instead because they think others won't know what they're talking about, or they don't know it's called an EADI. Never sure which is true.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/200x200/757_featured_image_15c9f0bc9e72c499e2d5a4623ad224f860a246c2. jpg
Perhaps they were talking about these?

[Broomstick Flier]

I have this interesting 2002 brochure by Boeing on the 767 avionics/flight deck, but could not attach it directly. So I created a Dropbox view/download link instead.
Please note the PDF is almost 16 MB large.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wu9wuirfcpfwdqd/B767%20Flightdeck%20and%20Avionics.pdf?dl=0

I think many might find it interesting,

[Uplinker]

On the '73 Classics I flew, PM had to adjust the Flex thrust manually on take-off.

Does anyone have a copy of the Boeing, (or any), 767 cockpit set-up and flight phase flows etc.?

Is there a tiller on both sides or LHS only on the '76?

[tdracer]

Not sure about 764 displays, but a company I worked for retrofitted most if not all 757/767 with so-called
Flat Panels: 2 big screens on each side of the cockpit with the latest and greatest of electronic displays,
probably 12-13 years ago,
No doubt the screens were full of information, but it seemed more like over-load:
<snip>
No idea if that was 764 displays, or some generic in-house retro-job.

My Company and another large freight operator has re-fitted all our 767 cockpits with new Flat Panel displays, similar to the 767-400

Those are not directly related to the 767-400 (which was basically all new avionics with the thrust lever quadrant from the 777). Somebody did an STC to replace the original CRT displays with a couple of large Flat Panel displays (I've forgotten who the vendor was that did it) but the underlying avionics were largely unchanged.
FedEx had placed a huge order for 767 Freighters, but was concerned that over the ~30+ years they planned to operate them, CRTs would become unavailable. So they had someone create a mod to replace the CRTs and the associated interface hardware with flat panel LCD displays. Initially, they'd fly away brand new 767 Freighters, remove the CRT hardware and replace it with flat panels, and ship the CRT hardware back to Everett where it would be installed on another new 767... Realizing how incredibly inefficient this was, Boeing was able to jump through some certification hoops that allowed the STC flat panel displays to be incorporated on the production line - and at some point new production 767 Freighters had the flat panel displays as-built.
That was a real eye opener for those of us responsible for cert - we wondered how we could show compliance for an STC installation done by another company - but it turns out there was an FAA approved process that basically said if the STC had FAA approval, it wasn't our problem. Given how sloppy some of the STCs I was familiar with were done and certified, I was far from comfortable with this (and I was far from alone), but the FAA said it was OK and I wasn't about to contradict the FAA...