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767 vs 737 Classic cockpit set up?

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767 vs 737 Classic cockpit set up?

Old 30th Mar 2023, 09:02
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767 vs 737 Classic cockpit set up?

I am Airbus FBW mainly, but was rated on B737 Classic for a short while. I am wondering how the '76 compares in terms of cockpit set up and manual switching required?

The '73 Classic required a lot of manual switching between various flight phases, e.g. Pitot heat, generators etc. (compared to Airbus FBW), and I am wondering if the '76 is similar or if most functions are automated on those aircraft.

Does the '76 have Fadecs, and how is Flex thrust set on take-off ? The '73 Classic requires PM to set the thrust manually for example.

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Old 30th Mar 2023, 12:11
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A lot less switching on the B767. No generators or pitot heat to manualy switch. More automated than B737 Classic, although B767 is actually an older design.

Before start scan (fuel, pumps, hydraulic pumps, packs) is similar, after start and all other scans are simpler. If the B737 has 2 of something, then the B767 has 3 of them (engines excepted).

Yes B767 has FADEC.

More cockpit room, and foot and shoulder warmers as well.
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 13:04
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Does the '76 have Fadecs, and how is Flex thrust set on take-off ? The '73 Classic requires PM to set the thrust manually for example.
Have flown the Classic for quite a while. Manual thrust setting was not required, except for the usual initial partial thrust (same as on the airbus actually), the rest was done by the autothrottle. No idea if very early MSNs had a different procedure. So no, manual take off thrust setting is not required usually. And yes, no FADEC needed for that.
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 13:11
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Yes B767 has FADEC.
They didnít until the late 90ís!
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 18:39
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
They didnít until the late 90ís!
Ah, you're off by a decade - the PW4000 FADEC was certified on the 767 in 1988. Specifically it depends on the engines on the 767. All early 767s (JT9D-7R4 and CF6-80A/A2) were hydromechanical fuel controls with 'Supervisory EEC' (basically a trimmer system to keep N1/EPR ~ constant with changing flight conditions). In 1988 the 767 was re-engined with PW4000 and CF6-80C2 PMC (i.e. non-FADEC, basically a supervisory EEC similar to the -80A). Some early CF6-80C2 powered 767s were 'provisioned' for FADEC - which came along a year or so later. Turned out the 'FADEC provisions' were totally inadequate and I don't believe any PMC aircraft were ever retrofit to FADEC.
For roughly 10 years, the -80C2 was available in both PMC and FADEC versions - buyer option (the FADEC had slightly better fuel burn than the PMC) - after that the PMC option was removed - an operator could only get the PMC if they'd previously purchased it.

From the flight deck, the PMC/FADEC difference was pretty close to transparent - the only real difference being the EEC switch in the overhead changed from "ON/OFF" on the PMC to "NORM/ALT" on the FADEC.
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 19:09
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i am surprised that nobody has mentioned that the B737 has toggle switches and the B767 has push buttons and rotary selectors.
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 23:32
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The 767 was the first iteration of the "Quiet, Dark Cockpit" that has become standard on newer aircraft. In short - with few exceptions - an illuminated light meant something was wrong instead of normal operation. That was a pretty dramatic change from the 737 philosophy.
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Old 30th Mar 2023, 23:59
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In a nutshell, the B-767 is a Cadillac compared to a classic 737 being a Lada..
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 02:45
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Simple:

737 (any) Horrible cockpit and archaic systems
767 (any) Nice spacious cockpit and systems.
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 10:29
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Thanks folks, keep it coming. Much appreciated
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 13:07
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Uplinker,
You will enjoy flying the 767. As others have said, a Cadillac, or Bentley for my UK friends. Beautiful flight control harmony, and very easy to fly…I’ve never heard of any pilot making a negative comment about a 767, however those who have migrated to the 777 will rank the “triple 7” above it..
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 18:16
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
Uplinker,
You will enjoy flying the 767. As others have said, a Cadillac, or Bentley for my UK friends. Beautiful flight control harmony, and very easy to flyÖIíve never heard of any pilot making a negative comment about a 767, however those who have migrated to the 777 will rank the ďtriple 7Ē above it..
I saw a documentary on the 777 where one of the launching airlines where on an ETOPS flight hours accumulation programme. The female Captain mentioned the 777 felt very easy and noble to fly, "like a Mercedes-Benz".

So what's better, a Mercedes-Benz, a Cadillac or a Bentley?
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 18:29
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So what's better, a Mercedes-Benz, a Cadillac or a Bentley?

I guess it’s generational, but they’re all complimentary.

One of my favorite movie scenes ever!
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 19:11
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
Uplinker,
You will enjoy flying the 767. As others have said, a Cadillac, or Bentley for my UK friends. Beautiful flight control harmony, and very easy to flyÖIíve never heard of any pilot making a negative comment about a 767, however those who have migrated to the 777 will rank the ďtriple 7Ē above it..
It shouldn't be a surprise that the 777 flightdeck as even better than the 767 - it was a direct evolution, using the same layout (the structural elements of the 767 and 777 flightdeck are nearly identical - as is the 757). The 777 flightdeck has 'lessons learned', plus over a decades worth of technological improvements compared to the 767.
The biggest difference between the 767 and 777 flightdecks are the 777s bigger display screens, plus making EICAS "Primary" allowed the deletion of most of the idiot lights in the 767. On the 767/757, EICAS wasn't considered to be the primary information source and wasn't on the battery, so just about everything needed a backup light or gauge for a loss of primary electrical power. Exception - the 767-400ER flight deck was derived from the 777 and EICAS was primary. At one time the plan was to incorporate the 767-400ER flight deck across the 757/767 line, but the combination of the lack of sales of the -400ER, plus declining interest in the 757/767 basically killed that.
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 19:21
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Some useless piece of trivia: 757/767/737CL are all first generation EFIS. They don't have a PFD/ND, they have a EADI/EHSI instead (Electronic ADI, Electronic HSI).

It's intereting to me how even 757 pilots refer to the EADI/EHSI as PFD/ND. Either they know the correct term is EADI but say PFD instead because they think others won't know what they're talking about, or they don't know it's called an EADI. Never sure which is true.
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 21:43
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Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer
Some useless piece of trivia: 757/767/737CL are all first generation EFIS. They don't have a PFD/ND, they have a EADI/EHSI instead (Electronic ADI, Electronic HSI).

It's intereting to me how even 757 pilots refer to the EADI/EHSI as PFD/ND. Either they know the correct term is EADI but say PFD instead because they think others won't know what they're talking about, or they don't know it's called an EADI. Never sure which is true.
Could you define both concepts? What is the difference between an EADI and a PFD as well as between an EHSI and a ND? To be fair, Iíve never flown the 757/767/777 in real life, only in the simulator, but i have flown the 737 classic and NG for quite a while and would be interested what the difference is between both concepts.
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 23:02
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EADI and EHSI stand for Electronic Attitude Display Indication and Electronic HSI, in their original inception they were electronic versions of their steam gauge counterparts.
The original EADI did not have a speed tape, hence the analogue velocimetre and all other items of the traditional instrument T. The speed tape became an option only later.
I understand that a PFD has all the necessary information in one single display.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 02:04
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It may have been changed as some point, but every 767 I did a flight test on had Broomstick's definition of a PFD...
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 03:48
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Originally Posted by tdracer
It shouldn't be a surprise that the 777 flightdeck as even better than the 767 - it was a direct evolution, using the same layout (the structural elements of the 767 and 777 flightdeck are nearly identical - as is the 757). The 777 flightdeck has 'lessons learned', plus over a decades worth of technological improvements compared to the 767.
The biggest difference between the 767 and 777 flightdecks are the 777s bigger display screens, plus making EICAS "Primary" allowed the deletion of most of the idiot lights in the 767. On the 767/757, EICAS wasn't considered to be the primary information source and wasn't on the battery, so just about everything needed a backup light or gauge for a loss of primary electrical power. Exception - the 767-400ER flight deck was derived from the 777 and EICAS was primary. At one time the plan was to incorporate the 767-400ER flight deck across the 757/767 line, but the combination of the lack of sales of the -400ER, plus declining interest in the 757/767 basically killed that.

Iíve flown the 757/67 with the ĎClassicí set up and the 767-400 with the 777 type displays, I really liked the latter, a significant improvement and itís a shame that update did not migrate to all variants


If I remember correctly a 757 was retrofitted and flight tested with these 764 displays ?
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 04:27
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If I remember correctly a 757 was retrofitted and flight tested with these 764 displays ?
Not sure about 764 displays, but a company I worked for retrofitted most if not all 757/767 with so-called
Flat Panels: 2 big screens on each side of the cockpit with the latest and greatest of electronic displays,
probably 12-13 years ago,
No doubt the screens were full of information, but it seemed more like over-load:
One grew up flying DC-3s,
DC-8s and Classic 747, but finally had to join the Glass Age with a vintage 757, plenty information for a dinosaur
until the "Flat Panels" retrofit.
No idea if that was 764 displays, or some generic in-house retro-job.
Glad I am retired now.
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