British Airways BAC 1-11 510 - what do we know of them...

[Mooncrest]

...apart from being based at Manchester?

For my part, not a great deal. I know the fleet operated an extensive European network from Manchester for many years but were any of them outstationed elsewhere on other duties, e.g. Shuttle services or Heathrow short-haul stuff? Were they ever supplemented by the short-body aircraft at Birmingham or the ex-BCAL machines? I know the 510 had its own type rating so swapping aircraft around may not have been very straightforward.

Thankyou.

[ATNotts]

First off the majority, I seem to recall all bar one (though I can't find a photo to substantiate that), were in a neutral livery with a dark blue tail with the legend "Super One-Eleven" across it and small BEA titles of the forward fuselage. Again, and excuse me if this was an urban myth, this was because they were used on the German internal routes between various western cities and Berlin for political reasons involved with flying into the divided city. Some of the fleet was rotated through Germany while being based, as you say in Manchester. I remember in my spotting days seeing -510s at LHR, not sure where they arrived from, but I assume they were MAN-LHR services among possible others.

They certainly operated the BEA scheduled network from Manchester but also appeared on some BHX routes, notably DUB-BHX. Again, I may be wrong, but I can't recall any of the -510 fleet being based at BHX. The first BA 1-11s based at BHX were the former Autair/Courtline examples G-AVGP and G-AWBL and former American Airlines -400s, G-BBME/F and G. These were joined by three of the last -500s to be built in G-BGKE/F/ and G.

I'm sure @rog747 can flesh out a great deal more detail.

[c52]

The reason for the 'neutral' livery I believe has nothing to do with the status of West Berlin, but because the flights had an Air France code-share (or whatever the equivalent was in those days). I believe that G-AVMS onwards were delivered in the full BEA livery.

The 1-11s eventually operated to LHR but for their first years, MAN-LHR was operated by Tridents or possibly Vanguards.

[ATNotts]

The reason for the 'neutral' livery I believe has nothing to do with the status of West Berlin, but because the flights had an Air France code-share (or whatever the equivalent was in those days). I believe that G-AVMS onwards were delivered in the full BEA livery.

The 1-11s eventually operated to LHR but for their first years, MAN-LHR was operated by Tridents or possibly Vanguards.

Ah, so connected with the Berlin corridor operation but more "commercial politics" than international politics. What was the split in the -510 fleet between German internal and Manchester in terms of numbers of units based in each location? There could have been only three delivered in red square livery then, 'VMS, T and U. I am sure I saw a picture somewhere, from my memory of 'MH in the BEA scheme back in the day, but that could well have been a mocked up PR image.

[pax britanica]

I was always puzzled by the 'blank ' blue fin. I had a BA pilot friend who did german domestics on 73s which took over from the 1-11s and theywere in BA colours . they did do other trips as mentioned-I did Dublin- London on a 1-11 500 once only time I flew on one

[tubby linton]

The aircraft were delivered with the standard BEA instrument fit to allow commonality with Trident etc. This was different enough to the standard BAC fit that crews could not operate the -400 version of the 1-11.

[Mooncrest]

Just noticed my error in the thread title. It should be 'BAC 1-11 510'.

Now corrected. Thankyou Mods.

[HOVIS]

They were all based at MAN when I started there. There were two or three - 539s too if I recall.
When Dan Air 'merged' (sic) with BA we would occasionally see some odd registrations rotating through. YOP being one outstanding example. 😁
Noisy buggers but I learned a lot doing double engine changes on overtime and a few CSDS units which would wind themselves up like a banshee every now and again. Happy days.

[Mooncrest]

When British Airways was flying between LBA and LHR in the 1970s, a 1-11 would occasionally substitute for the usual Viscount. It was a short runway at LBA back then but I guess OK with a lightly-loaded jet airliner. On at least two occasions after the runway extension, several of the Manchester 1-11s diverted to LBA in the evening when Manchester had unsuitable weather - probably low visibility.

[c52]

having found pictures of VMS & VMV in the 'one-eleven' non-livery, I guess they were all delivered like that.

[Flightrider]

The neutral blue livery was indeed because of local co-operation with Air France on the Internal German Service / Berlin routes when the Super 1-11s (as they were grandiosely christened) began to arrive. There was no other local sensitivity around use of branded aircraft on the IGS and indeed Pan Am had no such issue with their 727s flying on the same routes.

As others have mentioned, the -510s (One-Eleven 510EDs to be precise) had bespoke flightdeck layouts - to keep the post fairly simple, the switching on the overhead panel worked in the same way as the Tridents so that the flow of switching was towards the nose was "on" and towards the tail was "off". On the other 1-11s including the -400s and the aircraft inherited through the BCal take-over, the overhead panel switching worked in the opposite direction. This presented a fairly major issue in operating the types simultaneously and so neither BA Flight Ops nor the CAA would accept flying both the -510s and other variants. If I recall correctly, the three 1-11-539GLs (G-BGKE/KF/KG) ordered by BA in the early 80s were the same as the -400s which is why you tended to see those aircraft at Birmingham and not Manchester.

The 510s also did not have forward airstairs which was a monumental pain from a ground handling perspective - this was another BEA "customisation". Urban mythology was that they had a block of concrete under the forward galley as a weight/ballast compensator for the absence of airstairs - not sure if anyone can confirm whether this was actually true!

The performance on the -510s was never as good as the other -500s, but of course, many of the ex-BCAL/BUA aircraft had been ordered with Med charter operations in mind and so had higher MTOW (about half a tonne more) and water injection which I don't recall the -510s having. BA did some longer sectors with the ex-BCAL aircraft particularly from Birmingham into Spain - BHX/BCN was daily (the BA5328 sticks in mind), BHX/AGP and BHX/FAO at weekends which the -510s wouldn't hack.

Apart from the aircraft which were retired to Duxford (still there) and Cosford, the 1-11s were sold as a batch to European Aviation and most saw service with European Aviation Air Charter. One of many things you had to watch was the closing mechanism on the holds - I can remember one turnround looking after a EAAC subcharter down in Jersey where the door came off the runners (easily done) and shouting at the top of my voice to get someone across to help before the bloody thing fell out of the aircraft completely if I let go. We then had a CSDS failure on the same turnround (where that distinctive whining noise of the starter motor just kept getting ever higher-pitched until it eventually failed!) and so the aircraft didn't go anywhere anyway...

[Flightrider]

BA European 1974 schedule lists the following in the European and Mediterranean Area timetable, which unhelpfully omits non-London domestic services and the IGS routes are also not tabled:

By Super 1-11 (thus the -510s)
Manchester-Brussels daily except Saturday (which was on a Trident, for some bizarre reason)
Manchester-Copenhagen Wed/Thu/Fri
Manchester-Paris Orly daily mid morning BE802/803.
Glasgow-Manchester-Dusseldorf-Berlin BE824/825 daily
Manchester-Munich daily ex Sat/Sun
Manchester-Dublin 2 x daily (block time 40 minutes each way!!)
Manchester-Milan Mon/Tue/Thu/Sat in conjunction with Alitalia (BE/AZ808)
Manchester-Rome 1 x weekly Sun (again in conjunction with Alitalia)
Manchester-Amsterdam daily
Manchester-Geneva Tue/Sat
Heathrow-Basle daily
Heathrow-Bremen-Berlin daily
Heathrow-Berlin direct daily
Heathrow-Cologne-Berlin 2 x daily
Heathrow-Shannon daily BE972/973
Heathrow-Zagreb daily ex Tue/Sat
Manchester-Heathrow 7 daily flights

By 1-11 (so -400s or non-510s, I guess)
Heathrow-Lyon 2 x flights Mon, 1 x Tue/Wed/Thu under CS/Cambrian flight numbers
Heathrow-Dubrovnik weekly on Sundays (Cambrian)
Heathrow-Aberdeen 3 of 6 daily flights
Heathrow-Edinburgh 1 daily flight southbound only (BE5665 at 0845 - can't work out how the aircraft did the other half of this!!)
Birmingham-Paris Orly 2 x daily (BE872 and BE876) except at weekends. Third daily flight was a Viscount, and one was a GLA-BHX-ORY.
Bristol-Paris Orly daily (Cambrian) which stopped at Cardiff three days per week
Birmingham-Dusseldorf daily ex Sat/Sun
Birmingham-Dublin daily (one of three daily flights, others by Viscount)
Birmingham-Malta overnight Night Tourist class Wed/Sat/Sun (Manchester-Malta was a BEA Airtours 707 under a BE flight number)
Birmingham-Amsterdam daily
Heathrow-Cork daily (Cambrian)
Heathrow-Isle of Man daily (Cambrian)
Heathrow-Jersey two of six daily flights
Heathrow-Liverpool five daily flights (with occasional Viscount infill)
Liverpool-Dublin daily

Some great adverts - for the London-Cork BAC1-11 jet service by British Airways Cambrian and another for Lyon services in the same timetable.

By 1977, adverts had progressed to "Space Travel by British Airways TriStars"...

The differentiation between 1-11s and Super 1-11s in the timetable had stopped by that time. Changes to the above:
London-Prague was 3 x weekly 1-11 (it was a Trident in 1974);
there was a daily 1-11 London-Bordeaux under BZ flight numbers;
Manchester-Nice on Sundays in conjunction with Air France
Paris services had moved to CDG with BHX now 2 x daily
London-Berlin was down to 1 x daily direct 1-11 and 1 flight each way stopping at Bremen
Manchester-Frankfurt daily ex Sat/Sun
Heathrow-Hamburg morning flight was a 1-11, Trident in the evening
Birmingham-Hanover for trade fairs by the looks of the limited dates
Heathrow-Dublin 2 of five daily flights (rest were Tridents)
Heathrow-Shannon had moved to a Trident
Manchester-Milan daily ex Wed/Sat
Heathrow-Turin Mon/Wed/Fri/Sun in conjunction with Alitalia
Heathrow-Luxembourg daily ex Sat afternoon 1-11 (BZ flight numbers, was served by a Northeast Trident in 1974)
Heathrow-Amsterdam 1 of 8 daily flights (with Tridents on 6 of 8 and a TriStar on the morning)
Manchester-Zurich was daily with a nightstop in Zurich whilst Swissair had a DC9 overnighting in Manchester, as it did for years (SR842/843)
Heathrow-Belgrade and Zagreb were combined onto a circular 1-11 routing
Heathrow-Jersey was a mix of 1-11, Viscount and Trident on the afternoon roundtrip
Heathrow-Liverpool was at 3 x daily 1-11
Heathrow-Manchester was 9 x daily 1-11
Heathrow-Newcastle had a 1-11 on the mid-morning 1000 ex London, 1130 ex Newcastle alongside four Trident rotations

The Merchantman freighter services are also listed in 1977 but no sign of the intra-UK domestics outside London again. The timetable lists 25 Super One-Eleven and One-Eleven aircraft with the former at 99 and latter at 81 seats.



IGS services are listed in the 1977 timetable:
Berlin-Bremen 2 x daily (one of which continued to Heathrow)
Berlin-Cologne 6 x daily with a 7th on Fri & Sun
Berlin-Dusseldorf 7 x daily (one of which was the Berlin-Dusseldorf-Manchester-Glasgow)
Berlin-Hanover 10 x daily
Berlin-Stuttgart 2 x daily
Berlin-Sylt 1 x daily
All were 1-11s

[Liffy 1M]

There are three complete survivors:

G-AVMN Panzermuseum East, Slagelse, Region Sjælland, Denmark (in overall dark green but appears complete) https://flic.kr/p/2nqxPFq
G-AVMO Museum of Flight, East Fortune (ex-Cosford)
G-AVMU Duxford

In addition:
G-AVMJ (most of the fuselage, anyway) is at Tresham College, Kettering.
G-AVMZ (forward fuselage) is under cover at the Shannon Aviation Museum here in Ireland. https://flic.kr/p/dhh3hx

I would recommend a perusal of this website in relation to all things BAC 1-11. This is the UK operators page: http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/bac1-11jet.co.uk%20United%20Kingdom.htm

The 1-11-510s were commonly enough seen on LHR-DUB services during the late 1970s and early 1980s (probably in the low season, I think). There was also a single series 539GF aircraft (G-BFWN, ex 5B-DAJ) leased from Cyprus Airways from October 1978 to April 1980 and which was a fixture on the evening BA824/5 service during that period, IIRC. The other thing that sticks in my mind is that on MAN-DUB the 1-11s almost invariably cruised at FL120 on the way to DUB and FL110 on the way back - presumably to stay within the levels controlled by Manchester Control, as it then was.

[Flightrider]

And by 1988, omitting the BCal 1-11 schedules listed under BR flight numbers for that year:

Heathrow-Aberdeen 4 x daily 1-11 and rest of schedule on 757 or 737
1 x daily Manchester-Aberdeen on 1-11, two other flights on HS748
Belfast-Birmingham-Amsterdam 1 x daily
Birmingham-Amsterdam-Cologne 1 x daily in addition to the BFS-BHX-AMS
Manchester-Amsterdam 2 x daily
Birmingham-Belfast 3 x daily
Heathrow-Belfast 3 x daily alongside 4 x daily 757, Super Shuttle
Manchester-Belfast 3 x daily
Birmingham-Dublin 1 x daily
Birmingham-Dusseldorf 1 x daily (Lufthansa had a daily HS748 on the route)
Edinburgh-Birmingham-Dusseldorf-Hanover 1 x daily (no local traffic rights on DUS-HAJ)
Birmingham-Edinburgh 2 of 3 daily flights (lunchtime was an HS748)
Birmingham-Faro Sat/Sun
Glasgow-Birmingham-Frankfurt 1 x daily
Birmingham-Glasgow 4 x daily of which 1 ran through to Munich, 1 to Frankfurt and 1 to Dusseldorf (up against Lufthansa's direct Embraer Brasilia GLA-DUS in 2h25!)
Manchester-Birmingham-Hamburg 1 x daily (they flew MAN-BHX 3 x daily including this 1-11 service, 35 minute block time!)
Birmingham-Munich 1 x daily
Birmingham-Paris CDG 2 x daily (with Air France flying a Saab 340 in the afternoon and a 737 at night)
Manchester-Brussels 1 x daily (BA operated the evening, Sabena flew the morning with a 737)
Manchester-Copenhagen 1 x daily (within 25 minutes of the SAS DC9)
Manchester-Dublin 2 x daily
Manchester-Dusseldorf 2 x daily
Manchester-Frankfurt 1 x daily
Manchester-Geneva 4 x weekly
Glasgow-Manchester-Milan 1 x daily (GLA-MAN had five daily flights, this one with a 1-11 and four with HS748)
Jersey-Dusseldorf non-stop on Saturdays in April/May
Jersey-Edinburgh Sundays non-stop
Jersey-Heathrow 4 of 5 daily flights were 1-11, other was a 737
Jersey-Manchester daily service with extras on Sat/Sun by 1-11
Heathrow-Newcastle 4 of 7 daily flights were 1-11, one 737, one 757 (NCL nightstop) and another shown as variable equipment
Manchester-Nice Sundays (Saturday was a 757) with joint BA/AF flight numbers
Manchester-Paris CDG daily (1-11 nightstop in CDG, Air France flew the "other half" of the schedule with a 727 nightstopping in MAN)
Manchester-Rome weekly Saturday

The IGS service was on 737s (with an HS748 on Hannover and Munster) with no 1-11s through Berlin by 1988.

The 1-11s were also Shuttle back-ups between the retirement of the Tridents and 13 January 1992 (when the 737-236s took over) and the 737-400s came into Heathrow in the early 90s. The Shuttle back-ups were removed in the late 90s both due to Heathrow becoming more slot-constrained and the cost! You were never allowed to book firm duty staff travel on the Shuttles in case you triggered a back-up - so every jumpseat was invariably full!

Hopefully a decent picture of BA 1-11 operations with the -510s at the heart of it for many years. The -510s were all retired within the space of just over a year from November 1991 through to the last BA 1-11-510 operation was on 24 December 1992 at Manchester and the remaining 1-11-500s (the ex-BCAL aircraft) soldiered on for a short time longer at Birmingham, leaving the fleet on 1 July 1993 after a month of doing relatively little as the last scheduled service was listed as 31 May 1993. Sale of the BA -510s to European was in May 1993.

[SWBKCB]

There are three complete survivors:

G-AVMN Panzermuseum East, Slagelse, Region Sjælland, Denmark (in overall dark green but appears complete) https://flic.kr/p/2nqxPFq
G-AVMO Museum of Flight, East Fortune (ex-Cosford)
G-AVMU Duxford

In addition:
G-AVMJ (most of the fuselage, anyway) is at Tresham College, Kettering.
G-AVMZ (forward fuselage) is under cover at the Shannon Aviation Museum here in Ireland. https://flic.kr/p/dhh3hx

I would recommend a perusal of this website in relation to all things BAC 1-11. This is the UK operators page: UNITED KINGDOM (http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/bac1-11jet.co.uk%20United%20Kingdom.htm)

The 1-11-510s were commonly enough seen on LHR-DUB services during the late 1970s and early 1980s (probably in the low season, I think). There was also a single series 539GF aircraft (G-BFWN, ex 5B-DAJ) leased from Cyprus Airways from October 1978 to April 1980 and which was a fixture on the evening BA824/5 service during that period, IIRC. The other thing that sticks in my mind is that on MAN-DUB the 1-11s almost invariably cruised at FL120 on the way to DUB and FL110 on the way back - presumably to stay within the levels controlled by Manchester Control, as it then was.

Also G-AVMT at Cardifff - fire service trainer

https://www.flickr.com/photos/swbkcb/16327076305/

G-AVMP at Humberside - another fire service trainer

https://www.flickr.com/photos/swbkcb/51095374715/

[Flightrider]

Sorry - there's a bit more. I thought I had some more details somewhere on the 1-11-510 fleet and I've just found a sheet of A4 with the entire fleet exit listed (it's dated in March 93 so doesn't have full fleet exit details for the ex-BCAL aircraft which were mostly still flying by then). I doubt this will be on the internet anywhere as it's long before the days of Flightradar24 and the info was from a log kept by the F/O who was the BA 1-11 Fleet Technical chap based at BHX at the time.

One or two of the details here contradict postings above - so I'd take these as as the definitive info. Hours and cycles are total airframe time as at the date of ferry to BOH.

G-AVMH msn 136. Delivered 11Jun69. Last service 23Nov92 HAM-BHX. Ferried 24Nov92 BHX-BOH. 40278 FH, 45190 cycles.
G-AVMI msn 137. Delivered 01Apr69. Last service 14Nov92 GLA-BHX. Ferried 18Nov92 BHX-BOH. 40966 FH, 46151 cycles.
G-AVMJ msn 138. Delivered 21Aug68. Last service 06Jan92 LHR-BFS. Ferried 13Jan92 BFS-BOH. 40483 FH, 45720 cycles.
G-AVMK msn 139. Delivered 13Sep68. Last service 02Dec92 GLA-BHX. Ferried 04Dec92 BHX-BOH. 41033 FH, 45797 cycles.
G-AVML msn 140. Delivered 04Oct68. Last service 12Jan92 DUS-MAN. Ferried 13Jan92 MAN-BOH. 40002 hours, 45102 cycles.
G-AVMM msn 141. Delivered 22Oct68. Last service 13Jan92 CDG-GLA. Ferried 13Jan92 GLA-BOH. 39713 hours, 44446 cycles.
G-AVMN msn 142. Delivered 15Nov68. Last service 09Aug92 FRA-MAN. Ferried 10Aug92 MAN-BOH. 40942 hours, 46177 cycles.
G-AVMO msn 143. Delivered 22Nov68. Last service 18Dec92 CDG-GLA-MAN. Ferried 29Dec92 MAN-BOH. 41336 hours, 45788 cycles.
G-AVMP msn 144. Delivered 04Dec68. Last service 07Oct92 CPH-MAN. Ferried 09Oct92 MAN-BOH. 41747 hours, 47451 cycles.
G-AVMR msn 145. Delivered 02May70. Last service 13Jan92 DUS-MAN. Ferried 13Jan92 MAN-BOH. 37823 hours, 42553 cycles.
G-AVMS msn 146. Delivered 10Jan69. Last service 31Dec92 GLA-BHX. Ferried 05Jan93 BHX-BOH. 40934 hours, 45269 cycles
G-AVMT msn 147. Delivered 23Mar69. Last service 30Sep92 CDG-MAN. Ferried 01Oct92 MAN-BOH. 40267 hours, 44993 cycles.
G-AVMU msn 148. Delivered 19Mar69. Last service 16Dec92 DUS-BHX. Ferried 19Oct92 BHX-BOH. 40279 hours, 45540 cycles.
G-AVMV msn 149. Delivered 10Apr69. Last service 31Jul92 FRA-MAN. Ferried 01Aug92 MAN-BOH. 40512 hours, 45563 cycles.
G-AVMW msn 150. Delivered 13Apr69. Last service 24Dec92 MAN-MAN (Santa special). Ferried 30Dec92 MAN-BOH. 40611 hours, 45254 cycles.
G-AVMX msn 151. Delivered 20Jun69. Last service 13Jan92 LIN-MAN. Ferried 13Jan92 MAN-BOH. 38020 hours, 42549 cycles.
G-AVMY msn 152. Delivered 09Jul69. Last service 13Jan92 BHX-GLA. Ferried 13Jan92 GLA-BOH. 38557 hours, 42922 cycles.
G-AVMZ msn 153. Delivered 12Aug69. Last service 31Oct91 BHX-EDI. Ferried 04Nov91 EDI-BOH. 38376 hours, 43290 cycles.

So looks like the very last 1-11-510 service was 31 December 1992 GLA-BHX by G-AVMS. One suspects this wasn't planned as such as the Santa Special by G-AVMW on 24 December at Manchester is listed in print books as the last service.

The plan was for G-AVMO to be preserved (and contrary to earlier posting, pleased to hear it survived the chop at Cosford) and G-AVMU at Duxford, as occurred.

G-AVML, MM, MR, MX, MY and MZ were all painted into Okada Air colours at Bournemouth but never went to Nigeria (which is where two of the three 1-11-539GLs had gone in July 1991, the other - G-BGKE - going to GEC/Ferranti as then was, later Qinetiq at Boscombe Down). European then acquired the lot.

By the time of the last 1-11-510 service, the only other -500s to have left the fleet were the three -539GLs above and G-AXLL, G-AYOP and G-AZMF. The others (G-AWYR, YS, YT, YU, YV, AXJK, AXJM, AZPZ, BJRT and BJRU) were all still flying in March 1993 when the list I have was finished. I don't have the same details for the -400s, of which five had gone off to Birmingham European / Brymon European by then.

[kcockayne]

I know that they were operating into Jersey in the late 70s & 80s; mainly from Heathrow & Manchester, & they may well have been used on the Birmingham services, too.

[Mooncrest]

Thankyou Flightrider for an astonishingly full and detailed account of the activities of the whole BA 1-11 fleet. They looked like a very busy set of aeroplanes but when their time was up, off they went. Also remarkable to reflect on the European services once available with BA from Manchester, among others. What a contrast to now, where the likes of easyJet and Ryanair dominate where BA was once big.

[ETOPS]

What we need here is someone who actually flew the "Super" 1-11 from MAN during the 80s and 90.....:rolleyes:

That's me folks :ok:

As already noted the -510 was a bespoke machine that BEA persuaded BAC to design and build as a mini Trident. Thus the flightdeck layout differed greatly including all the switches going the wrong way, panel layout redesigned along Trident lines (including old fashioned Smiths A/H etc) a large paper Decca moving map and - get this - a single channel CAT111 autoland AP!!!
By the time I joined the fleet they were obsolete but as my first jet I was thrilled. - the partial flap approach speed was faster than the cruise speed of my previous type :eek:
They were an absolute nightmare to operate but flew beautifully and I grew to love them - apart from the water dripping on my head during descent...

If there's any interest I can give some examples of the quirky operational aspects such as trying to start the APU or the multiple switch selections needed for a successful autoland....

[ETOPS]

PS Just checked my logbook - last flight was G-AVMW on 4/12/92 early morning MAN/GLA/MAN with Ray Bull and then off to London for the 737 course...

[SOPS]

What we need here is someone who actually flew the "Super" 1-11 from MAN during the 80s and 90.....:rolleyes:

That's me folks :ok:

As already noted the -510 was a bespoke machine that BEA persuaded BAC to design and build as a mini Trident. Thus the flightdeck layout differed greatly including all the switches going the wrong way, panel layout redesigned along Trident lines (including old fashioned Smiths A/H etc) a large paper Decca moving map and - get this - a single channel CAT111 autoland AP!!!
By the time I joined the fleet they were obsolete but as my first jet I was thrilled. - the partial flap approach speed was faster than the cruise speed of my previous type :eek:
They were an absolute nightmare to operate but flew beautifully and I grew to love them - apart from the water dripping on my head during descent...

If there's any interest I can give some examples of the quirky operational aspects such as trying to start the APU or the multiple switch selections needed for a successful autoland....

I, for one, would love to hear more.

[Jn14:6]

IIRC, G-AVMH,'MI and 'MJ were delivered in 'red square' livery, the remainder being delivered in 'super one-eleven' scheme. The first three were then repainted into S 1-11 scheme. Eventually all were to receive the 'speedjack' livery. 'MH became the first to wear the full British Airways livery and I flew on it LHR-MAN, fresh from the paint shop!

[WHBM]

The bland livery was indeed a feature of the Berlin flights. In the beginning there had been ops by BEA (Viscounts), Pan Am (DC-6Bs) and Air France (DC-4s). BEA were the favoured ones by passengers, until Pan Am substituted 727s in 1965/6, and jets were it. BEA tried to compete with enhanced legroom and catering (the "Silver Star" Viscounts), but then ordered the One-Eleven 500s, which were the first of the stretched type. Air France meanwhile had become a lost cause and realised they were going to be zeroed out commercially, so came to this joint commercial arrangement with BEA, although it was mainly for politics to maintain a French presence on the Berlin Corridor, and in fact it was pretty much just a BEA operation, with little French visibility. Air France still ran a couple of nominal Caravelles a day from Paris, into Berlin Tegel (French sector), which until things transferred there fully in the 1970s was hardly used. A further commercial agreement later saw the Berlin routes carved up between the operators; Pan Am dominated on Frankfurt, and BEA on Hanover, always the shortest route with the highest demand.

Liveries of the aircraft did go back and forth, with repaints, initial ones in BEA colours, then later all were in the bland blue. They didn't have the range of the bulk of later One-Eleven 500s, as favoured by the Mediterranean holiday flight operators, just about 1,000 nm (say Manchester to Rome) was it. But that sufficed for BEA. On any one day, half ran from Manchester and half from Berlin, but they exchanged by through-routed flights through West German cities on several rotations per day.

As I understand the subsidiary switches issue, BAC on the One-Eleven and HS on the Trident did them opposite ways round. BEA wanted same as Tridents, for consistency, which BAC did for them but the CAA would not let crew be certified on both sorts - it was one or the other on licences. This really became an issue when BA took over B Cal in 1988, and ended up with equal numbers of both variants, so they were separated by base; if I am not mistaken the BEA spec at Manchester and Heathrow, while the standard/B Cal ones, including various further secondhand ones, at Gatwick and Birmingham. The smaller -400 series were originally with Autair, and came secondhand to Cambrian (I may have got a flight on the very first public operation - separate discussion), and thence into BA that way. They were, likewise, always kept apart from the BEA spec ones.

[ETOPS]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x819/15175_1487631229_3daa6c1af6d9b8e9542e01ee1ab86fb9fb8cbd59.jp g

In this great photo the large blank area used to house the Decca navigator paper moving map - leaving us with similar Nav capability as found in a Piper Cherokee...

Anyway how to start the 1-11 APU ( this is from memory) Having checked the engineers are not refilling the oil and all cockpit preperation checks are complete it went something like this;-
Battery master switch ON
Fire detection test switch to APU
Squib test switch to TEST - check squib lights on
Switch "APU CONTROL" to "ON".
- Check "FUEL VALVE" reads "OPEN".
- Click "PUSH TO START" (gulls eye initially reads "START"). After 35% RPM "START" goes blank then displays "RUN" when at full RPM.
Select APU generator ON
Select Electrical power source selector to APU and check voltage....et voilà you can make a cup of tea ;)

[ETOPS]

Should clarify that "squibs" is the term for an explosive charge that ignites to fire the extinguishers when the engine fire handle is pulled.

Later flying with a LHR based Captain, whose surname was actually Squibbs, I was reduced to hysterics at that part of the checklist. Such a gentleman, he forgave me after the fourth pint I bought.....:rolleyes:

[Flightrider]

I was just doing a quick search for one of the Manchester 1-11-510 cadre who would have been well-known to a great many as a flying instructor at Shoreham, "Moose" Davies. Sadly passed away about three months ago after a good (and lively) innings at the age of 91. He was on the "Super 1-11" at Manchester until retirement from BA, which was at 55 in those days.

Amusing anecdote in a recently-published book by Peter Herzberg, who was a Dan-Air 146 skipper at Newcastle at the time of the event recounted in his book "That's Fast Enough" (which is available on Amazon and worth a read). Asked for their aircraft type by ATC, a BA crew declared they were a One-Eleven - only to quickly state that they were, in fact, a "Super One-Eleven". Pete's F/O then called in as a "Super 146" and an Air UK F27 coming onto frequency declared itself a "Super F27" until the controller called time on the joke...

I stopped in about 1995 keeping a log of flights I'd taken, which is just as well as Greta Thunberg would by now be seizing it as evidence for the prosecution, had I continued. Several 1-11-510 flights with BA and latterly one or two with EAAC on there (found in the garage this afternoon I was digging out the stuff for the posts above), and more on standard 1-11s with British Midland/Airways Cymru (the infamous G-WLAD) and Dan-Air on various -500s. The terrors of G-WLAD probably merit a thread all of their own....

I thought condensation was unique to British-built aircraft, with 1-11, 146 and RJ generally requiring paper tissues stuffed into the underside of the overhead lockers at Row 6 to stop the unfortunate occupants getting soaked on take-off and Shorts 360 pilots suffering from "trench arse" after hours of sitting on rain-soaked seats. That was until boarding a Lithuanian/Maltese cross-breed of A320 flying for easyJet last summer and - lo and behold - observing paper tissues stuffed into the underside of the overhead lockers, which I hadn't seen on an aircraft for quite a few years! Plus ca change....

[Mooncrest]

We had a lengthy discussion about G-WLAD about eight years ago. I began it, wondering what possessed Sir Bishop to lease it in the first place. In spite of its noisiness and somewhat dated appearance, it was actually a very reliable ship and kept LBA with its much-vaunted Heathrow jet service when the DC9 naffed off after just one season!

I'm glad to note the BA 1-11s have generated plenty of comment, whether in praise or derogatory. Typical of BA to have an aircraft engineered to their exact requirements; what was effectively a two-engined Trident should been the Super Two-dent!

[GAXLN]

And of course, let’s not forget “Mike Romeo” on this thread. https://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5946

[sandringham1]

It was the ADI display style that the BEA -510,s had in common to the Tridents, this was the critical factor in preventing cross fleet crewing. Standardising the fleet as all sky pointer or all ground pointer was investigated but deemed too costly.

[WHBM]

When pretty much the whole fleet was sold to European, effectively at residual price as there appeared no real market for them, the new owners were surprisingly able to find a lot of subcharter work for them, various European mainstream carriers like Air France or Sabena (the latter having them put into their livery), also a range of start-ups of the era, and British Aerospace themselves who had got into delays with new 146/RJ deliveries had them sent them out as cover. Quite a few were back through Heathrow from time to time, for some years.

When the final one departed Manchester for Bournemouth (AVMW, looking at the above), the crew called up Ready for Departure, adding "as the last BA One-Eleven to leave Manchester". A senior voice replied "Thank you. Before you go, could you please pat the aircraft on the nose and wish her good luck, whatever the future brings. I have been speaking to her ever since she first arrived 25 years ago when I was a new junior here". The crew responded "Tower, we have done as requested, the aircraft asks that in turn we pass on thanks for all the assistance you and your colleagues have given her over that time". And on they went ...

[MENELAUS]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x819/15175_1487631229_3daa6c1af6d9b8e9542e01ee1ab86fb9fb8cbd59.jp g

In this great photo the large blank area used to house the Decca navigator paper moving map - leaving us with similar Nav capability as found in a Piper Cherokee...

Anyway how to start the 1-11 APU ( this is from memory) Having checked the engineers are not refilling the oil and all cockpit preperation checks are complete it went something like this;-
Battery master switch ON
Fire detection test switch to APU
Squib test switch to TEST - check squib lights on
Switch "APU CONTROL" to "ON".
- Check "FUEL VALVE" reads "OPEN".
- Click "PUSH TO START" (gulls eye initially reads "START"). After 35% RPM "START" goes blank then displays "RUN" when at full RPM.
Select APU generator ON
Select Electrical power source selector to APU and check voltage....et voilà you can make a cup of tea ;)
What about auto land set up ?

[DaveReidUK]

It was the ADI display style that the BEA -510,s had in common to the Tridents, this was the critical factor in preventing cross fleet crewing.

I'd have thought that having switches that operated in the opposite sense to those on the pocket rockets was a showstopper, too.

[ETOPS]

What about auto land set up ?

I still have nightmares but here goes..........

Being a single channel/fail passive system there were numerous monitors built into the autopilot the last one being me! The correct ILS frequency being selected and the inbound course dialled into both direction indicators meant you could press the autoland test button - a successful outcome was a black and white "dolls eye" briefly showing on an indicator. Once established on the ILS both pilots would select a switch on their DI to lock onto the signal - seem to remember this was termed "beaming up" ?
A last check of the weather/RVR and minima set on the Rad alt (50 ft decision height) meant my job was to gingerly operate the "Prime Land" switch. When engaged it allowed the autopilot to perform its tricks and the approach to descend below CAT1 minima. It was held in the engaged position magnetically thus would disconnect if any fault occurred - that being a fairly regular occurence! If it did drop out a loud warning sounded and a bright red warning light illuminated - that always made me jump and I had to call "go-around" above 50 radio or "LAND MANUAL!!" below 50 ft - and yes I was speaking in capitals :eek:
If the system worked the result was usually a pretty decent landing - the results of a manual touchdown from 50 ft in poor viz were .................variable.

[MENELAUS]

I still have nightmares but here goes..........

Being a single channel/fail passive system there were numerous monitors built into the autopilot the last one being me! The correct ILS frequency being selected and the inbound course dialled into both direction indicators meant you could press the autoland test button - a successful outcome was a black and white "dolls eye" briefly showing on an indicator. Once established on the ILS both pilots would select a switch on their DI to lock onto the signal - seem to remember this was termed "beaming up" ?
A last check of the weather/RVR and minima set on the Rad alt (50 ft decision height) meant my job was to gingerly operate the "Prime Land" switch. When engaged it allowed the autopilot to perform its tricks and the approach to descend below CAT1 minima. It was held in the engaged position magnetically thus would disconnect if any fault occurred - that being a fairly regular occurence! If it did drop out a loud warning sounded and a bright red warning light illuminated - that always made me jump and I had to call "go-around" above 50 radio or "LAND MANUAL!!" below 50 ft - and yes I was speaking in capitals :eek:
If the system worked the result was usually a pretty decent landing - the results of a manual touchdown from 50 ft in poor viz were .................variable.

Brilliant. Brit engineering at its finest. ! That said I flew the Classic for a while. Autolands were something of a variable feast.

[sandringham1]

I'd have thought that having switches that operated in the opposite sense to those on the pocket rockets was a showstopper, too.
I don't recall the switches issue but the concern was that the different style of attitude indicator displays could lead to the aircraft being rolled inverted, especially in a situation when things were happening quickly and the crew reacting under pressure.

[rixt]

Sad sight in Nigeria, plenty BAC1-11 once operated by Okada air. In 1997 I made a flight with one of these from Lagos to Port Harcourt.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/bac111_9ce15bdc99a8cc4769913042e1a234abdadfc3ec.jpg

[ZFT]

I'd have thought that having switches that operated in the opposite sense to those on the pocket rockets was a showstopper, too.
Didn't the Atlas config B737s have a similar set up with switches operating in the opposite sense?

[TCAS FAN]

When pretty much the whole fleet was sold to European, effectively at residual price as there appeared no real market for them, the new owners were surprisingly able to find a lot of subcharter work for them, various European mainstream carriers like Air France or Sabena (the latter having them put into their livery), also a range of start-ups of the era, and British Aerospace themselves who had got into delays with new 146/RJ deliveries had them sent them out as cover. Quite a few were back through Heathrow from time to time, for some years.

When the final one departed Manchester for Bournemouth (AVMW, looking at the above), the crew called up Ready for Departure, adding "as the last BA One-Eleven to leave Manchester". A senior voice replied "Thank you. Before you go, could you please pat the aircraft on the nose and wish her good luck, whatever the future brings. I have been speaking to her ever since she first arrived 25 years ago when I was a new junior here". The crew responded "Tower, we have done as requested, the aircraft asks that in turn we pass on thanks for all the assistance you and your colleagues have given her over that time". And on they went ...

Worked most of the stream of 1-111s that were inbound to BOH, believe one used the (unauthorised?) call sign “Charrington 1”, chief pilot 1-111s?

[dixi188]

As a slight aside, most of the photo's of 1-11 cockpits in museums show the "Stall Dump" handle pulled, (red oval thing to the right of the throttles). To re set it you need to poke a small screwdriver into a hole in the RH side of the centre console to release a latch allowing the handle to be turned and pushed back in. I did it in the cockpit at the Bournemouth Aviation Museum a couple of years ago. I wonder if it has been pulled again.

[hunterboy]

The Autoland system was a pretty smart system for its day. I seem to remember it had a “comparator “ that compared the single channels signal for increases or decreases in the rate of change . If it went out of limits, it dropped out as ETOPS describes….normally at around 60’ Radio.

[ETOPS]

I’ll see your “comparator” hunterboy and raise you the “Wiffle tree” :)

[dixi188]

IIRC there was a box called a "Medina Unit", that was to do with the auto pilot and an annunciator that displayed "Extend" during the final part of the approach. It may have been when the GS was disconnected.

[Mooncrest]

I remember reading the story of the crew on the last Trident scheduled flight. I thought the captain might get the 757 but, no. He ended up on the 1-11 but only briefly. He had a 737 course not long afterwards. From the Trident to a the 1-11, what a disappointment. I don't know what types the two FOs ended up with.

[chevvron]

I remember reading the story of the crew on the last Trident scheduled flight. I thought the captain might get the 757 but, no. He ended up on the 1-11 but only briefly. He had a 737 course not long afterwards. From the Trident to a the 1-11, what a disappointment. I don't know what types the two FOs ended up with.
I flew with a BEA BAC 1-11 F/O in 1971. Two years later when I met him he had graduated to a Viscount Captain!

[frangatang]

GBGKG, series 539, ex man and bhx is at present intact at the museum at Newquay.
the delightful owners of the airport want the museum shifted out, in which case that machine, as well as the VC10 will be totally scrapped.
I flew KG in October 1988 bhx-dus and back, being based there on the standard 1-11s, with Collins instrument fits from 87-90. Great base.
interestingly the flying aptitude test to get into BA was on the S1-11 sim.
mike

[SWBKCB]

the delightful owners of the airport want the museum shifted out, in which case that machine, as well as the VC10 will be totally scrapped.

​​​​​​​I believe an alternative site is under discussion.

[crewmeal]

We all know what happened in Corfu. The aircraft ended up operating for BA/Maersk based at BHX in the 90's. There were stories going round that the deceased old lady's face kept appearing through the window of the rear door during flight.

G-AWYS (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f185ed915d137100037f/6-1974_G-AWYS.pdf)

[Mooncrest]

I flew with a BEA BAC 1-11 F/O in 1971. Two years later when I met him he had graduated to a Viscount Captain!
I would have been very happy with that outcome, given the Viscount is my favourite aeroplane.

[DH106]

I would have been very happy with that outcome, given the Viscount is my favourite aeroplane.

Can't beat a Viscount ! :8

[hunterboy]

Funny thing about BA was the allowances system back then. Certain fleets did disproportionately well in terms of allowances. IIRC, in the early 90’s the highest paid pilots in BA were some of the shuttle back up guys (not) flying the 1-11, and the others were the 737 pilots doing the IGS routes in Germany paid in DM. Some of the lowest paid were skippers on the classic 747.

[DaveReidUK]

We all know what happened in Corfu.

No, we didn't all.

But thanks to your link, we do now. :O

[ETOPS]

some of the shuttle back up guys (not) flying the 1-11

The Parker-Knoll Squadron. I can neither confirm nor deny my membership of this august body - meal window Captain?

[blind pew]

The Parker-Knoll Squadron. I can neither confirm nor deny my membership of this august body - meal window Captain?
surprise you haven’t mentioned drafting and the rumour of brinks-max escorts for the recipients…

[TCU]

Slight drift, but from a time (1982) when boarding passes were more fun:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/84b5411a_fedb_4d0e_8be4_ea05039c5d06_0466c49429f8893bfea41ff ff58a556e5a1c2460.jpeg

[ZFT]

Slight drift, but from a time (1982) when boarding passes were more fun:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/84b5411a_fedb_4d0e_8be4_ea05039c5d06_0466c49429f8893bfea41ff ff58a556e5a1c2460.jpeg
..and when check in took only a few minutes to peel off and put on the assigned seat sticker as opposed to today when the check in staff spend an age entering your life history via their keyboard!!!

[Mooncrest]

This isn't specific to the -510 variant but I remember some 1-11s, I think mainly Dan Air, had an unusual RT feature. There was a short, high-pitched bleep at the end of every transmission. I guess this was something to do with the radio equipment in certain aircraft. Some had Marconi, some had Collins. There may have been other makes and types I'm unaware of.

[chevvron]

This isn't specific to the -510 variant but I remember some 1-11s, I think mainly Dan Air, had an unusual RT feature. There was a short, high-pitched bleep at the end of every transmission. I guess this was something to do with the radio equipment in certain aircraft. Some had Marconi, some had Collins. There may have been other makes and types I'm unaware of.
All BEA Tridents had this, Comet 4b's too I think; not sure about Viscounts & Vanguards.

[Mooncrest]

All BEA Tridents had this, Comet 4b's too I think; not sure about Viscounts & Vanguards.
Obviously not exclusive to the 1-11 then. Perhaps it was a Marconi idiosyncrasy.

[Liffy 1M]

Obviously not exclusive to the 1-11 then. Perhaps it was a Marconi idiosyncrasy.

I only ever heard the "beep" on the 1-11, particularly the 1-11-510s, though as stated, some DA ones had it as well.

[DaveReidUK]

Slight drift, but from a time (1982) when boarding passes were more fun:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/84b5411a_fedb_4d0e_8be4_ea05039c5d06_0466c49429f8893bfea41ff ff58a556e5a1c2460.jpeg

Interesting that the seats were simply numbered, rather than the more usual row number+letter.

I suppose the fact that the One-Eleven was 5-abreast helped with the maths. :O