Enroute ATC question

[thomsonpop]

Hi All,
I could do with some practical advice, please.
Here's the scenario:
You've just changed frequency to an ATC unit to request a zone transit.
You give your callsign and state your request.
They respond "G-ABCD Squawk 1234 pass your message."

What do you do next?
1. Set the squawk then respond?
2. Respond "squawk 1234 G-ABCD" then set the squawk and then call them again with your message.
or
3. Try to set the squawk while passing your message and flying the aeroplane?
4. Pass your message then set the squawk once you've finished?

I am sure that when I was training for my PPL, ATC used to either ask you to pass your message OR give you a squawk and then call you back with your position and ask you to pass your message, not do it all in one call.

Thoughts please.

[flyme273]

Good question. Looking at this from the controller's perspective. The squawk code allows the controller to identify position. Once he knows the position, he can make sense of your further requests and can probably process the request "on line". The alternative requires more exchange of messages.

Therefore I would place priority on setting the squawk. Then continue with ATC. Even at the risk of another station interrupting the dialogue.

flyme

[TheOddOne]

I teach set the squawk first, then respond:
"G-ABCD squawk 1234
Cessna150 2 POB
Anytown to Anytown via Anywhere
Over YouKnowWhere
2,000' 1018
Request Basic Service
G-ABCD"

If you're using a modern Garmin transponder, setting the squawk is amazingly simple, a beautiful piece of kit.
If you're using a Trig, rather more of a faff but I've one student who is really good at it.
If you're using an old Bendix/King or Narco unit, good luck!

TOO

[thomsonpop]

Thanks for that. Yes, the Garmin makes it easy, but I am using a trig which is quite a faff when you've got your hands full of aeroplane and can take maybe 20 seconds to set a squawk. My concern is always that the controller will start to wonder if you have received their transmission while you fiddle with your transponder. But as you say, once the transponder is set, they have much of the information they need, especially if you are near controlled airspace.

[ETOPS]

My transponder is a TQ KTX2 mode S which works very well but is very fiddly to set. So having got the controllers full attention I pass my details as TOO suggests but set the squawk as soo as I stop transmitting. This hasn't been a problem as brevity in my RT means the ATC see my allocated code within seconds.

[thomsonpop]

Interesting. So there is definitely a difference of opinion among people as to whether to set the code first and then pass the message or pass the message and then set the code. I wonder if there are any controllers out there who have a preferred way of doing it?

[flyme273]

The Odd One. Your message format noted. My preference:-

Squawk 1234 Cessna 150 POB 2
EGXX 2,000 ft [option 1018] EGYY
present position
request basic service
G-CD

reason: "EGXX Altitude EGYY", follows IFR format for position reporting.

flyme

[Whopity]

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate

[2 sheds]

Not sure what that contributes, Whopity! Surely it's all about communication?

Thomsonpop - it would actually be better technique from ATC, of course, to invite you to pass your current flight plan details first, then consider whether and which code to assign.

2 s

[Talkdownman]

Hi All,
I could do with some practical advice, please.
Here's the scenario:
You've just changed frequency to an ATC unit to request a zone transit.
You give your callsign and state your request.
They respond "G-ABCD Squawk 1234 pass your message."

What do you do next?
1. Set the squawk then respond?
2. Respond "squawk 1234 G-ABCD" then set the squawk and then call them again with your message.
or
3. Try to set the squawk while passing your message and flying the aeroplane?
4. Pass your message then set the squawk once you've finished?

I am sure that when I was training for my PPL, ATC used to either ask you to pass your message OR give you a squawk and then call you back with your position and ask you to pass your message, not do it all in one call.

Thoughts please.
I think it is the controller who needs the practical advice, or, better still, some flying experience! This "G-ABCD Squawk 1234 pass your message" trend is not at all clever. If ATC insists on this untimely and clumsy practice, simply respond with "Standby", set the assigned SSR code, THEN pass your message. I agree with '2 sheds', i.e. it would be better to invite you to pass your current flight plan details first, THEN consider whether and which code to assign. It is likely that code assignment is not appropriate UNTIL the controller knows the purpose of that message, e.g one may simply be calling for a radio check or a pressure setting, neither of which would need a code assignment, untimely or otherwise. (I taught my ATC students not to assign their easily identifiable unit squawks until they had good reason to do so, i.e. treat it like lending money...!)

[2 sheds]

Spot on, Talkdownman - do we know each other, I wonder? And that is exactly what is illustrated in the RTF Manual.

2 s

[Jim59]

It is likely that code assignment is not appropriate UNTIL the controller knows the purpose of that message, e.g one may simply be calling for a radio check or a pressure setting, neither of which would need a code assignment,

The controller does know the purpose - the original poster stated:
Here's the scenario:
You've just changed frequency to an ATC unit to request a zone transit.
You give your callsign and state your request.

[2 sheds]

There are other considerations, Jim - e.g. is the aircraft within radar coverage, plus the point made by the OP about the practicality in the cockpit - and the RTF manual requirement.

2 s

[Fl1ingfrog]

If ATC insists on this untimely and clumsy practice, simply respond with "Standby", set the assigned SSR code, THEN pass your message.

Agree but don't forget you must readback squawks and then set it. This magical word "standby" is used extensively by ATC with good reason. I've always taught my pilot students to use it appropriately too. In the first call the convention is to pass in brief the essential information; "SOMEWHERE RADAR G-ABCD, VFR, request zone entry Topwood". This should allow ATC to assign an appropriate squawk.

[Jim59]

There are other considerations, Jim - e.g. is the aircraft within radar coverage,

Not necessarily. Non-radar units may still assign a squawk so other nearby radar units can see from where a particular aircraft is receiving a service.

[chevvron]

First call should be callsign only then wait; the controller will respond either 'pass your message' or 'standby'.

[2 sheds]

Not necessarily. Non-radar units may still assign a squawk so other nearby radar units can see from where a particular aircraft is receiving a service.
Yes, necessarily - in the context posed by the OP, it is a real consideration until the general position of the aircraft is known. It is also a matter of knowing where to look to obtain the identification by observing the code selection when it occurs - otherwise it is necessary to then use the ident feature.

First call should be callsign only then wait; the controller will respond either 'pass your message' or 'standby'.
Well, no - it should also include a brief request for the service required!

2 s

[chevvron]

Yes, necessarily - in the context posed by the OP, it is a real consideration until the general position of the aircraft is known. It is also a matter of knowing where to look to obtain the identification by observing the code selection when it occurs - otherwise it is necessary to then use the ident feature.


Well, no - it should also include a brief request for the service required!

2 s
You've obviously never operated Farnborough LARS.
And just a reminder; pilots must never operate the 'ident' unless specifically requested by the controller.

[2 sheds]

You've obviously never operated Farnborough LARS.
And just a reminder; pilots must never operate the 'ident' unless specifically requested by the controller.
No, I have not - and your point, relevant to the OP's original question about standard procedures, is...?
And...I don't think that I implied that a pilot should squawk ident without instruction, did I?

2 s

[chevvron]

No, I have not - and your point, relevant to the OP's original question about standard procedures, is...?
And...I don't think that I implied that a pilot should squawk ident without instruction, did I?

2 s
Sorry I wasn't getting at you personally about the use of 'Ident', as you will know a pilot should only activate it in response to a specific instruction by ATC whereas a lot of pilots (even ATPLs) do not do this.
On busy days, when operating as LARS, there would often be several aircraft waiting to make their initial calls; in these situations you cannot afford to wait while someone makes an initial call passing long winded details of their route etc when you may have someone on a TS or DS which you can see are going to get close to each other and you need to warn them about the situation urgently. For this reason, we always encouraged pilots just to make a initial call using callsign only and wait for the controller to respond.

[India Four Two]

As soon as a controller says "Ident", I push the button immediately and usually he says "Radar identified" at the end of his message, before I've even responded.

[TheOddOne]

Chevvron,
Firstly, thank you for all you hard work at Farnborough Radar. I hugely benefited from your service when I worked at Denham a decade and a half ago - I was working the first morning of the change to Basic and Traffic service.

With all due respect, the current edition of CAP413 generally advises on first contact to give callsign of agency, then aircraft callsign, then initial request. On page 24 of Chapter 11 'Phraseology examples' Figure 26:
.Wrayton Information, G-ABCD, request Basic Service
again on the following page Figure 27
Westbury Approach, G-ABCD, request Traffic Service
There are numerous other examples through CAP 413 where the initial call is formatted like this.

You're absolutely right that the pilot shouldn't launch into their complete message (as I had one slightly nervous student do the other day, before I could stop them - the controller handled it with aplomb). However, a short introduction of what you are wanting takes up little air time and gives the controller an expectation of what is to come.

Incidentally, to answer the OP's question, CAP 413 also says the response from the controller should be simply 'pass you message' and the squawk instruction should come AFTER your detailed message, so you shouldn't have to be fiddling with the transponder until you've got your message out.

TOO

[scifi]

I think I would go for option 3 of the OPs list...
Reply.. '' G-CD squawking, 1,, 2,, 3,, 4,, Request zone transit at 2000ft. '' ( Press each key as you call out each number.)
The bit about having to fly the aircraft should have been settled 10 minutes ago; By either engaging the auto-pilot, or trimming the throttle and trim wheels, to make the aircraft aerodynamically stable, for straight and level flight.
It is always good practise to only give up to three pieces of information in each radio transmission.

[chevvron]

Chevvron,
Firstly, thank you for all you hard work at Farnborough Radar. I hugely benefited from your service when I worked at Denham a decade and a half ago - I was working the first morning of the change to Basic and Traffic service.


I actually retired from Farnborough slightly before the changeover from FIS/RIS to TS/DS in 2009 however I did participate in a 'workshop' at the CAA in London in early 2008 where the details of the proposed 'new' system were discussed plus during that time and for some time after retirement I attended UK Phraseology Working Group meetings at Gatwick.
At that workshop, I got the distinct impression that it was 'controlled' by the military element of the participants so there was little difference between the 'old' and 'new' services.
I and at least one other person tried to 'push' the idea of moving back to the 'original' system (and was firmly put down) of using radar as part of the Flight Information Service as notified in ICAO Doc 4444 para 8.11 which was used in UK airspace up to about 1978 and which I understand is used as 'standard' in much of Europe but I got the impression the decision had already been taken before the workshop and was not to be changed, hence we ended up in the present situation.
At least I was able to launch the concept of expanding LARS coverage to the volume of airspace under the LTMA covering the areas around Denham and Elstree; I did used to operate from Denham at one time but due to the then aerodrome operator objecting to my participating in an interview with AAIB which didn't leave his operation in a good light, I switched to flying from Blackbushe.

[Fl1ingfrog]

I too was part of a meeting to which the CAA proudly introduced the upcoming new 'Basic/Traffic' system. Apart from the expected range of queries and criticisms we were to a man and women astounded that the UK intended to introduce a new unique service, which was to be completely at odds with our increasing integration with EASA land. The mood in the room was the same; why seek feedback when minds were already set in stone.

[Maoraigh1]

"Reply.. '' G-CD squawking, 1,, 2,, 3,, 4,, Request zone transit at 2000ft. '' ( Press each key as you call out each number.)"
Many of us have transponders which require each number to be set by rotating a knob, then pressing to set. If you take too long to get all 4:set, it reverts to previous setting.
I have no autopilot, and turbulence can put trimmed aircraft off settings.

[sheepless]

Down in NZ setting a code is redundant.
I first establish contact.
Then pass my position/level and the request.
If it is available the clearance is in the response.
No setting a squawk, squawk ident etc- we are ADS-B compulsory.

[scifi]

Hi Maoraigh, I suppose you do get some turbulence from those hills in Scotland.
The only snag with setting the squawk first then calling, is that if you are flying in the Midlands area, you will get stepped on by two or three other aircraft, and it might be about 5 minutes before you can read-back and confirm your squawk code. Some pilots have no SA on the radio, and just key up asap.