Russian Airlines and Boeing/Airbus

[Mike Flynn]

I am currently staying at NaiYong Beach near Phuket airport in Thailand and can’t help noticing Aeroflot and other Russian charters flying Airbus and Boeing aircraft here several times a day.

I thought there was an embargo on the use of these aircraft and they were no longer supported by the manufacturer.

[Asturias56]

IIRC the Russians rushed through a law giving their State Authorities rights over the certification etc

[andrasz]

There were a few A/Bs that were owned by Russian airlines (SU in particular), not leased and on a foreign register. The aircraft legally owned by Russian airlines can fly to any country which has no carpet ban on Russian regstered aircraft. However should a re-registered aircraft do the same, they would likely be impounded in most places.

[Nil by mouth]

Just out of interest, are these flights allowed certified maintenance and to "pick up" spare parts in these countries where they are still allowed to operate to?

[Less Hair]

Databases and software must be totally out of date. How do these aircraft work with non working databases? Are they hacked somehow?

[krismiler]

Data bases can be provided by friendly countries, the Iranians have relied on this for years. Obviously the copy is unlicensed and hopefully gets a very careful checking. Russian computer hackers are quite skilled and encryption would be at commercial level rather than top grade military.

Any aviation authority in a country that Russian Airbus or Boeing aircraft operate to should be taking a close interest in the airworthiness of these aircraft.

Thai Airways operate the same types and most of their fleet is grounded at the moment and parked in lines at BKK, with quite a few unlikely ever to fly again. While this is Thailand, I wouldn’t for a minute suggest that these aircraft or the company’s spares holding could be used to keep Russian aircraft flying. Sanctions would be properly enforced.

[ATC Watcher]

Thai Airways operate the same types and most of their fleet is grounded at the moment and parked in lines at BKK, with quite a few unlikely ever to fly again. While this is Thailand, I wouldn’t for a minute suggest that these aircraft or the company’s spares holding could be used to keep Russian aircraft flying. Sanctions would be properly enforced.
Thailand is not party to the sanctions against Russia. and to "help " with spares would not be illegal , in the same way that Malysia" helped" Iran airlines in the past .
Russia can also purchase aircraft to be used as spares as Iran did ( and still do afaik) There are enough of them available currently.

One thing Russian authorities could face in the near future though is losing ICAO membership and all the protections that goes with it. Then it will be adifferent ball game flying those aircraft commercially and internationally.

[Less Hair]

Who insures them?

[ATC Watcher]

Who insures them?
i would say the State , just like they/we do with State aircraft carrying civil pax . But it is a guess .

[Mike Flynn]

Laos has just banned Russian aircraft from overflying en route Thailand.

14.12.2022 - 22:11 UTCAeroflot (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/SU) (SU, Moscow Sheremetyevo (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/3689)) has started operating some of its charter flights from Far Eastern cities in Russia to Thailand with refuelling stops after Laos closed its airspace to Russian airlines.

The airline confirmed to local media that it was in contact with the Laotian authorities, hoping to secure clearance to fly via the country's airspace. However, as long as the talks are not concluded, it must bypass Laos for flights from Vladivostok (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/3794), Krasnoyarsk Yemelyanovo (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/3669), and Novosibirsk (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/3710) to Thailand, one of the most popular international leisure destinations still open to Russian tourists. While for flights operated with A330-300 (https://www.ch-aviation.com/aircraft-data/333)s the development results only in an extension of the flight duration, services flown with B737-800 (https://www.ch-aviation.com/aircraft-data/738)s are forced to operate with a refuelling stop at Irkutsk Int'l (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/3647), adding some two to three hours to the journey time.

Other Russian airlines flying to Thailand from the Far East, such as Azur Air (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/AZK) and Ikar (Russian Federation) (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/IKL), deploy long-range aircraft (B757-200 (https://www.ch-aviation.com/aircraft-data/752)s or B777-200 (https://www.ch-aviation.com/aircraft-data/772)s) capable of operating the extended route via Myanmar with no refuelling stops. The need to bypass Laos is not a factor for flights departing from central and western parts of Russia.

Flightradar24 ADS-B data shows that Russian airlines were flying through Laotian airspace until the end of November. It is not clear what made the South-Eastern Asian country change its decision regarding overflights. Laos, a single-party communist state, has very close political ties to China.

Simultaneously, the Aviatorshina Telegram channel reported that at least two airlines - iFly Airlines (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/IFY) and Nordwind Airlines (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/NWI) - were banned from operating over Jordan, an important transit country for flights to Egypt. The latter was forced to cancel its services to Hurghada (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/1586) and Sharm el Sheikh (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airports/1592), as it became practically impossible for them to serve these routes with narrowbody aircraft, while the former will deploy its widebody A330-300 (https://www.ch-aviation.com/aircraft-data/333)s on a circuitous route bypassing Saudi Arabia from the south. Türkiye has previously banned (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/121421-trkiye-bans-dual-registered-russian-aircraft) flights (including overflights) of Russian double-registered aircraft, while Saudi Arabia bans all Russian flights and Syrian airspace is still deemed unsafe for commercial operators. Other carriers, including Aeroflot, Red Wings Airlines (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/RED), Azur Air, and Azimuth (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/airline/AZ1), use aircraft legally registered only in Russia and are thus able to fly to Egypt via Türkiye.

How come Thailand is not sanctioned for refuelling etc.


https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/122438-laos-jordan-close-airspace-to-russian-airlines

[Denti]

Thailand is not party to the sanctions against Russia. and to "help " with spares would not be illegal , in the same way that Malysia" helped" Iran airlines in the past .

While it is true that Thailand is not party to sanctions, neither the USA nor the EU care about that and have secondary sanctions for exactly that case. Anyone helping Russia to wiggle out of its sanctions can be hit with a similar level of sanctions. Which is why China doesn’t help Russia for example.

[MarkerInbound]

Databases and software must be totally out of date. How do these aircraft work with non working databases? Are they hacked somehow?

The system will work fine with an out of date database. My job has a procedure for out of date database if maintenance hadn’t loaded the next version of the database. We double check the location of each waypoint. After all, how many things change every 28 days? That being said, after 10 months there will be more and more new waypoints that the crew will have to manually create.

[Big Pistons Forever]

That being said, after 10 months there will be more and more new waypoints that the crew will have to manually create.

What could possibly go wrong :rolleyes:

[krismiler]

Any country found to be helping Russia circumvent sanctions would be jumped on hard. A blind eye might be turned if an aircraft was AOG and needed a new fuel pump which could be supplied from an airline’s existing spares holding, but ordering all of Aeroflot’s parts requirements on their behalf and shipping them on wouldn’t be acceptable.

There was a problem a few years ago with a Norwegian Air B737 MAX which made an emergency landing in Iran and required parts which couldn’t be sent due to sanctions, it spent 10 weeks on the ground waiting for a new engine.

A subscription to JEPPESSEN paper charts could easily be purchased in another country and forwarded to Moscow where it could be reproduced without any identification and distributed. Having to enter new waypoints and create routes manually would be quite tedious and might involve a navigator being carried for that purpose.

[andrasz]

Several sources are reporting that internal memos at a number of Russian airlines instruct the pilots to disregard fuel economy and use maximum reverse thrust on landing to lessen the wear on the brakes. Sanctions seem to start to bite.
e.g. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/08/03/russian-pilots-told-brake-less-spare-parts-run/

[Less Hair]

This means more wear and tear on the engines which will come back to bite later but even more expensive.

[tdracer]

This means more wear and tear on the engines which will come back to bite later but even more expensive.
Not necessarily - if the speed cutbacks/cutoffs are properly respected in reverse, max reverse is not particularly hard on the engines - the max N1 in reverse is well below TO (it makes no sense to go use higher reverse N1s, since the increase in forward core thrust tends to cancel the additional reverse thrust from the fan). Of course, if they abuse the T/R cutback speeds, all bets are off (up to and including engine surges and the associated damage).

Back when I was working on the original 777 development, I semi-seriously suggested we simply get rid of the reversers and add a 'drogue' chute that the pilots could deploy if they got sufficiently nervous - less cost and weight and less maintenance (not coincidentally, I'd just come from investigation the Lauda in-flight deployment crash). Even back then, I was told they bookkept a $100/landing savings in brake maintenance costs thanks to the use of reverse thrust. The savings of brake wear from the use of reversers is not subtle.

[Magplug]

Boeing? Airbus? The Russians clearly don't see any need to have the oversight of an Engineering Authority for modern aircraft types !

[TheFiddler]

I thought with carbon brakes it was about applications, not severity of braking? If so, and if they have carbon brakes then surely it makes no difference?

[Winemaker]

I thought with carbon brakes it was about applications, not severity of braking? If so, and if they have carbon brakes then surely it makes no difference?
My understanding is both the number of applications and temperature affect wear; carbon brake wear is much greater at low temperatures and with repeated application.
The following is paraphrased from the BFGoodrich Engineering Report 7437:

Brake wear factors: Steel brake wear is a function of the amount of energy absorbed during aircraft landing. Less energy (lower temperature) nets longer life. Carbon brake wear is a function of the number of times the brakes are applied and the temperature at which they are applied. Longer brake life will result from fewer applications and maintaining higher brake temperatures.

[hans brinker]

My understanding is both the number of applications and temperature affect wear; carbon brake wear is much greater at low temperatures and with repeated application.

But unless they start adding brake heaters the only way to get the brakes to optimal temperature is to use the brakes when they are cold, resulting in extra brake wear.....
So what is the optimal way to get brakes to their optimal temperature, both for taxi out, and landing?

[Winemaker]

But unless they start adding brake heaters the only way to get the brakes to optimal temperature is to use the brakes when they are cold, resulting in extra brake wear.....
So what is the optimal way to get brakes to their optimal temperature, both for taxi out, and landing?
Hard application with temperature build, not repeated soft applications.

[megan]

From the Boeing magazine

.https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_03_09/img/2009Q03_article05_mini_header_2.gif
Because the wear mechanisms are different between carbon and steel brakes, different taxi braking techniques are recommended for carbon brakes in order to maximize brake life.Steel brake wear is directly proportional to the kinetic energy absorbed by the brakes. Maximum steel brake life can be achieved during taxi by using a large number of small, light brake applications, allowing some time for brake cooling between applications. High airplane gross weights and high brake application speeds tend to reduce steel brake life because they require the brakes to absorb a large amount of kinetic energy.

Carbon brake wear is primarily dependent on the total number of brake applications — one firm brake application causes less wear than several light applications. Maximum carbon brake life can be achieved during taxi by using a small number of long, moderately firm brake applications instead of numerous light brake applications. This can be achieved by allowing taxi speed to increase from below target speed to above target speed, then using a single firm brake application to reduce speed below the target and repeating if required, rather than maintaining a constant taxi speed using numerous brake applications. Carbon brake wear is much less sensitive to airplane weight and speed than steel brake wear.

These recommendations are intended as general taxi guidelines only. Safety and passenger comfort should remain the primary considerations.

[ORAC]

Not just Boeing and Airbus aircraft being affected in Russia b6 sanctions….

https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1699301598378254515?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


Flights on Czech L-410 aircraft have been suspended in the Kamchatka Territory due to a lack of spare parts. This is due to Western sanctions on the supply of parts for aircraft.

Kamchatka became the second Russian region that refused to operate Western aircraft. Previously, such aircraft were abandoned in the Komi Republic.

[pilotmike]

From the Boeing magazine...
Carbon brake wear is primarily dependent on the total number of brake applications — one firm brake application causes less wear than several light applications. Maximum carbon brake life can be achieved during taxi by using a small number of long, moderately firm brake applications instead of numerous light brake applications. This can be achieved by allowing taxi speed to increase from below target speed to above target speed, then using a single firm brake application to reduce speed below the target and repeating if required, rather than maintaining a constant taxi speed using numerous brake applications.
So presumably a single, carefully applied low pressure is optimal to keep taxy speed about right is ideal - even better than the reduced but nevertheless repeated "single firm brake application[s]" which are suggested.

[Locked door]

Not if you don’t want to set fire to your brakes. A single continuous application will overheat the brakes very quickly.

Cadence braking (allowing the speed to build up before slowing to walking pace) creates cooling periods which slows heat build up.

[Winemaker]

So presumably a single, carefully applied low pressure is optimal to keep taxy speed about right is ideal - even better than the reduced but nevertheless repeated "single firm brake application" which are suggested.

Think of it like going down a steep mountain road. You can keep a constant brake pressure on or allow the speed to build then slow down with a harder application. If you chose the first method, constant brake pressure, you are soon going to smell that nice odor of cooking brakes.