Light show between 40 and 30 West

[back to Boeing]

Flying eastbound last night. My colleague decides to settle in for some controlled rest. So headset on and properly tune in to 123.45 and 121.50. Lots of excited chatter. Not unusual as it was “sporting” on the tracks last night.

But no it wasn’t the usual ride reports. Someone nattering on about the light show. And then many many more voices chirp in. The busiest I have ever heard 123.45. Something happening between the moon and Venus (later worked out not to be Venus. But a very bright fixed celestial object. Mars maybe?)

discussion of lights blinking. Then going left and right. A trio of them. Dancing around each other. Then disappearing for a few minutes. Then coming back. I thought meh. Satellites. But then I think most of my fellow aviators are pretty experienced. And suddenly bang. I saw them myself. It was absolutely surreal. I have never seen anything I can’t explain. It wasn’t satellites. It wasn’t the orionid meteor shower. It wasn’t spaceX’s starlink satellite train. About 10 aircraft from all nations could see it. And then when we hit about 25 west whatever it was was gone.

Chatting to some mates in other airlines, whatever this phenomenon is has been happening for several days. Always looking east.

No one in the air had a satisfactory explanation.
Again I have seen satellites, spacex starlink and meteors and it is none of the above. Many many pilots have seen whatever it is. I’m not saying it’s little green men, but it is definitely a unexplained (for now) flying objects.

Anyone have any ideas? Anyone seen them? Probably a little niche as it seems to be new and probably only visible from the flight deck.

[John Marsh]

Collective suggestibility? You were all listening in to the excited comments.

Were you perhaps looking too intensely at celestial objects in the dark, thus making them appear to move about?

I am not seeking to dismiss what you saw; I offer some explanations which are worth consideration. Most unusual sightings can be explained as mundane phenomena...which is not necessarily proof of mundanity!

Do the lights maintain any kind of formation? If so, do they do so whilst changing position? Do they change colour?

[tom775257]

A few weeks ago we saw similar, but over the Balkans area. Numerous aircraft reporting the same thing to ATC, from northern Greece up to Croatia. On approach to SKG we had an extremely bright unusual fixed light in the sky (at night). Northbound we saw 3 lights moving as described, aircraft closer to it said they could see the objects above them moving in a manner aircraft aren't known to move, estimated at FL500. No idea what they were.

[IBMJunkman]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x400/4a72046d_2788_4f22_a2a0_f438e555eef4_77d1f31f65e4bad6e2b7f95 a7a17d86b2f75644a.gif

[Haraka]

"To serve Man " IIRC :)

[Ninthace]

It wasn't around the time of the Artemis launch?

[back to Boeing]

It wasn't around the time of the Artemis launch? Artemis did cross my mind. But whatever it was it was moving too fast across the field of view to be out of the upper atmosphere. And the mass hysteria angle did cross my mind as well. But it has been seen over many days by many different crews.

[Discorde]

Many unexplained 'UFO' type phenomena will be the military of various nations exercising various pieces of kit (which of course they'll deny all knowledge of).

[SpringHeeledJack]

If we occam away the more exotic possibilities, it is most likely that as the above poster says, some form of space-mil tech being tested, or used. Maybe in a portion of the sky that apart from pilots in their darkened cocpits, no man would be there to see it (whatever). All those billions that seem to disappear in projects that don't stand up to scrutiny must be going somewhere and these sightings could well be the result.

[SQUAWKIDENT]

I guess it's not the easiest thing to film on a phone with all the cockpit lighting and glass in the way but I wonder if anyone managed to get some video of the phenomena.

[Raduga-Burya]

Flying eastbound last night. My colleague decides to settle in for some controlled rest. So headset on and properly tune in to 123.45 and 121.50. Lots of excited chatter. Not unusual as it was “sporting” on the tracks last night.

But no it wasn’t the usual ride reports. Someone nattering on about the light show. And then many many more voices chirp in. The busiest I have ever heard 123.45. Something happening between the moon and Venus (later worked out not to be Venus. But a very bright fixed celestial object. Mars maybe?)

discussion of lights blinking. Then going left and right. A trio of them. Dancing around each other. Then disappearing for a few minutes. Then coming back. I thought meh. Satellites. But then I think most of my fellow aviators are pretty experienced. And suddenly bang. I saw them myself. It was absolutely surreal. I have never seen anything I can’t explain. It wasn’t satellites. It wasn’t the orionid meteor shower. It wasn’t spaceX’s starlink satellite train. About 10 aircraft from all nations could see it. And then when we hit about 25 west whatever it was was gone.

Chatting to some mates in other airlines, whatever this phenomenon is has been happening for several days. Always looking east.

No one in the air had a satisfactory explanation.
Again I have seen satellites, spacex starlink and meteors and it is none of the above. Many many pilots have seen whatever it is. I’m not saying it’s little green men, but it is definitely a unexplained (for now) flying objects.

Anyone have any ideas? Anyone seen them? Probably a little niche as it seems to be new and probably only visible from the flight deck.


"They" seem to be at it again.
Well documented phenomena.
Did you get an idea of direction of movement, overall?

[back to Boeing]

"They" seem to be at it again.
Well documented phenomena.
Did you get an idea of direction of movement, overall?
in my field of vision right to left. Then disappearing and then starting at the right again. Generally between the moon on the left and a star/planet same height as the moon on the left

military crossed my mind. But why do it in a place where hundreds of people in flight can see it.

why not do it in a bit of “space” where very few people can see it. South Pacific for example. As opposed to direct line of sight of the nat tracks.

I heard on 123.45 that crews were trying to video it but too dim to be picked up on camera phones.

as to the moderator that moved it from JB to R and N. Fair enough your train set. But can I claim my prize for being the first ever thread to go in this direction as opposed to the opposite way 😱

[Raduga-Burya]

in my field of vision right to left. Then disappearing and then starting at the right again. Generally between the moon on the left and a star/planet same height as the moon on the left

military crossed my mind. But why do it in a place where hundreds of people in flight can see it.

why not do it in a bit of “space” where very few people can see it. South Pacific for example. As opposed to direct line of sight of the nat tracks.

I heard on 123.45 that crews were trying to video it but too dim to be picked up on camera phones.

as to the moderator that moved it from JB to R and N. Fair enough your train set. But can I claim my prize for being the first ever thread to go in this direction as opposed to the opposite way 😱


Thanks for the description. Out of curiosity, any long obvious North-south movements?

I suggest a report to a certain NGO that has the biggest record of reported events up to now, and no not muffon or whatever it is called.
Actually you will find many similar incidents in their records.

[WhatsaLizad?]

Collective suggestibility? You were all listening in to the excited comments.

Were you perhaps looking too intensely at celestial objects in the dark, thus making them appear to move about?

I am not seeking to dismiss what you saw; I offer some explanations which are worth consideration. Most unusual sightings can be explained as mundane phenomena...which is not necessarily proof of mundanity!

Do the lights maintain any kind of formation? If so, do they do so whilst changing position? Do they change colour?

Maybe let the pilots discuss this "rumour" on the "Professional Pilots Rumour Network".

[HOVIS]

A Chinese rocket stage came apart in LEO a couple of days ago. Could it be debris from that?
Angry Astronaut.

[Mr Optimistic]

Right to left then gone. Then another set right to left again and gone ?
Does right = south ?
Objects high enough to still be illuminated by the sun then as they track north into the earth's shadow ?
Something, well 2 groups of 3 of them, in low polar orbit ?

[birdspeed]

‘Back to Boeing’, that was a perfect description of what I and many other aircraft also saw in the mornings of the 11th and 16th Nov.
Initially, I put it down to the SpaceX starlink cubesats moving in varying orbits and catching the reflecting sun. But, as another pilot pointed out, they were not moving in a fixed orbital path….to add, I saw up to 4 moving lights at one time. They would be about as bright as the ISS at their brightest. Both nights they were in exactly the same part of the sky, above the eastern horizon, to the right of the bright star Arcturus. Which seems, is where you saw them too.

[Flugzeug A]

Fascinating.
I expected far more cynicism , nice to see the lack of it so far.
‘ Back to Boeing’ & ‘birdspeed’ , did you report it to your employers?
Is there a policy on any airline that makes it incumbent on you to do so , or would that leave you open to criticism?
What did the other people on the flight deck with you think of what you saw?

[megan]

The narrator is a highly experienced F-14 RIO, ex CO of USN Academy Annapolis and ex editor of the USN "Approach" flight safety magazine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z1lQ9Gp8Vk

https://youtu.be/6z1lQ9Gp8Vk

[Loose rivets]

"it was no illusion, and it was being intelligently handled"

Captain James Howard. BOAC

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=476030439840305

It's my long term favourite UFO story.

BTW. Jupiter is still very bright. Look at its moons (binoculars) now cos you're not going to be alive when it comes this close again.

[John Marsh]

A few weeks ago we saw similar, but over the Balkans area. Numerous aircraft reporting the same thing to ATC, from northern Greece up to Croatia. On approach to SKG we had an extremely bright unusual fixed light in the sky (at night). Northbound we saw 3 lights moving as described, aircraft closer to it said they could see the objects above them moving in a manner aircraft aren't known to move, estimated at FL500. No idea what they were.
Viewing objects, not 'just' lights, is a step further. They move unlike aircraft with which we are familiar...are there any manoeuvres which seem to be beyond any imaginabe Earthly technology? Infeasibly abrupt changes of speed and/or direction?

In a way, these sightings fit nicely with the US Navy 'chiclet' sightings. They involve aviation professionals who are likely to be received as credible witnesses.

If the lights are from classified military activity, the UFO/UAP misidentification will be welcome.

[Flugzeug A]

Erm- is the position given mid-Atlantic?

[wiggy]

Right to left then gone. Then another set right to left again and gone ?
Does right = south ?
Objects high enough to still be illuminated by the sun then as they track north into the earth's shadow ?
Something, well 2 groups of 3 of them, in low polar orbit ?

It would certainly would be interesting to know how long before local sunrise these observed events happened.

[Cadet Colin]

Observed the same lights last night. Starting around 35 west and finally losing the movement and the different intensity of light at 25 west.

[CharlieUniform]

Flying eastbound last night. My colleague decides to settle in for some controlled rest. So headset on and properly tune in to 123.45 and 121.50. Lots of excited chatter. Not unusual as it was “sporting” on the tracks last night.

I saw the same thing back to Boeing . Time stamp on the photos I took say 0056Z on 20/11/22 (photos are rubbish though!). We were on track Z at 39,000. Heard similar report on the radio, then started to see the lights at around 40W, they stopped around 30W. Phenomenon very similar to how you describe it. The purser thought we were losing the plot, so we asked someone on 12345 to explain what was happening!

I have no explanation either i'm afraid - Mr Optimistic 's seems the most plausible so far, but I have to say it looked very different to any other satellite ive seen whilst flying before.

​​​As John Marsh mentioned above, I did also think it was a groupthink scenario, and that my brain was matching what I was seeing to what we were hearing, but i'd like to think im quite cynical and rational, and therefore fairly sure it did happen as described!

It was mentioned on the radio that the best documented sighting of a similar event is covered in a video on US news - type "UAP racetrack" in youtube. This doesn't shed much light on matters, but is a similar account of what I saw.

Would love to hear if anyone sees it again. Heading east at 40W - look just above the horizon at midnight!

[Flarkey]

Hi, sightings like this have been reported all over the globe recently, particularly over the Atlantic, the Pacific and just last week over Brazil. We've been investigating the sightings on Metabunk.com and have determined that they are mostly starlink satellites flaring. But note, its not the usual 'train' of starlink that is often seen shortly after a launch, these are deployed Starlink satellites that are in low-earth orbit and are flaring near the day/night terminator.

Hopefully these videos will explain it. back to Boeing , birdspeed and CharlieUniform does this look like what you saw....? If you have any photos or videos of the lights (with location & time) then we can probably check if flaring Starlink Satellites were visible in that area of the sky at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VmrRGln1XA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea8BCl2yVU0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8u1GHHz2Ko

And here's links to two threads that show our rationale;
Why "Racetrack" UFOs are mostly Starlink Flares | Metabunk (https://www.metabunk.org/threads/why-racetrack-ufos-are-mostly-starlink-flares.12714/)
Why are Starlink "Racetrack" Flares [Mostly] Reported from Planes? | Metabunk

I saw the same thing (https://www.metabunk.org/threads/why-are-starlink-racetrack-flares-mostly-reported-from-planes.12720/) Time stamp on the photos I took say 0056Z on 20/11/22 (photos are rubbish though!).

​​​​CharlieUniform any chance you could post the photos and your metadata? Are you sure that the photo timestamp was ZULU/GMT and not EST/GMT-5?

[TheEdge]

Well, Mick West will deny the UAPs regardless.

[Flarkey]

Maybe The Edge , but in this case he and I have investigated and demonstrated our rationale as to what the UAP was. Feel free to comment upon our methods and conclusions on Metabunk.com (http://www.Metabunk.com).

[TheEdge]

Maybe The Edge , but in this case he and I have investigated and demonstrated our rationale as to what the UAP was. Feel free to comment upon our methods and conclusions on Metabunk.com (http://www.Metabunk.com).

Thanks for the invitation, will also ask Chris Letho to participate :)

[Electreng]

Not sure if this has anything to do with the phenemenon discussed here, but a bright object was visible several times last week around 22:00-23:00 local time, from northeast Germany, direction SW (appr. 230 deg), at an elevation circa 40 degrees (estimated). The object did however not seem to move by any great extent. When viewed through a binocular, it appeared as an oval shape with sharp edges.

[birdspeed]

Thanks ‘Flarkey’,
So it seems these sightings are the Starlink satellites. We are seeing them well over the Eastern horizon, perhaps over 1000nm ahead of us. The large number of satellites, their concentration around 53N and mixed in with some some polar orbits are then being illuminated in a fairly small area of the sky by the winter sun. Causing an illusion that they are manoeuvring around each other.

Normally, in the winter we don’t see satellites so far from sunrise. It just so happens that these satellites are particularly reflective when low in the sky and just happen to be visually seen from so far away, long before dawn.

I guess we’ll get used to seeing them all time from now on.

And being well over the horizon from the surface, you won’t observe them from the ground. Only Airline pilots will be reporting them.

[Flarkey]

And being well over the horizon from the surface, you won’t observe them from the ground. Only Airline pilots will be reporting them.

That is true for the brightest flares, but the recent UFO Flap in Porto Alegre in Brazil and the Jimmy Church video from Palmdale California shows that these can be seen from the ground. But pilots will definitely get the best view and are more likely to see them against the dark cloudless sky. And they're more likely to notice weird lights in the sky to ensure it isn't an airprox or collision risk.

[back to Boeing]

On the one hand Ockham’s razor probably tells me it’s these flares. But something does niggle me. Starlink have been launching for years. I have been crossing the Atlantic for years. Including during the pandemic. Why are they only massively prevelaar now. As in the last few days.

[birdspeed]

‘Back to Boeing,’ 3 years ago they started launching 50 or so satellites at a time. Now there are a little less than 3000 in the 550km high orbit. So I guess we’ve now reached a time when the orbits are fairly full, so there is a constant stream of potentially visible satellites especially at 53N/S.

Also, I’ve seen somewhere that these satellites have flat bottoms so may reflect light better at shallow angles. This means that we can see them far over the horizon during the winter and not the summer as the angles don’t work to be seen. So this winter is probably the first time that it’s become so noticeable.

The polar orbital sats have been a recent addition too, adding to the display.

[txl]

Could be BlueWalker 3, a new huge comms satellite that was unfolded last week.

BlueWalker 3 (https://ast-science.com/spacemobile-network/bluewalker-3/)

BlueWalker 3 Sightings (https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2022/11/14/bluewalker-3-sightings/)

[meleagertoo]

I think it's a hallucination caused by long-term exposure to chemtrails toxins...

[CharlieUniform]

Thanks for the links Flarkey . Apologies, you’re right. It’s EST, so 0556z. Location data on the photo only shows departure airport, but FR24 track log shows our location at that time as:

05:57AM 44.97 -36.01 → 74° 598kts 11887m

Thanks again for the explanation (although I was secretly hoping it involved little green men!)

[Flarkey]

CharlieUniform Thanks for the correction. I quickly punched in your lat long and time details into in-the-sky.com and it shows that there were a bunch of satellites towards the NE at the time of your 'sighting'. The red ones in the image below are illuminated by the sun, which is directly below the horizon on your 74° heading. These are the conditions in which we understand that the Starlink flares will be observed.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1008x774/capture_edcc29f523b4673ada8f13b6ffe40056673e7870.jpg

[draglift]

John Marsh wrote Collective suggestibility? You were all listening in to the excited comments.

Were you perhaps looking too intensely at celestial objects in the dark, thus making them appear to move about?


Most definitely not! I have been flying the atlantic for 34 years and have never seen anything unusual. However on 17th Nov 2022 I was eastbound and between 40 West and 30 West I saw things I have never seen before.

There were a couple of objects moving which were clearly not aircraft and may well have been satellites. Not very unusual. However then there was a bright light similar to Venus (but not Venus which I have seen hundreds of times) but more like an aircraft head on with its landing lights on, except it suddenly went sideways at great speed for 10 seconds but then reversed its direction.

That disappeared but a few minutes later there was another not so well lit object with another similar one visible. These two then moved very fast in the same direction but not in sufficient formation to be a reflection and then one reversed direction and then after a pause the other changed its direction and followed slowly catching it up.

About this time an American accented voice on 123.45 said "Is anyone else seeing some very strange lights in the sky around 40 West?" Several other voices joined the conversation and there was then a discussion and someone suggested Elon Musk's Starling satellites. However everyone agreed they could not have changed direction like that.

[siftydog]

Saw the same thing over Central Europe last week. Initially thought Starlink but the terminator was way too far west by then to catch them in LEO so something else. Other unusual thing was whatever was generating / reflecting the light had it’s back to the direction of the sun at the time of maximum intensity. I’ve not even seen the ISS or Venus that bright before.

[Flarkey]

Saw the same thing over Central Europe last week. Initially thought Starlink but the terminator was way too far west....

Can you provide any more details of your location, date & time for this? (A flight number would be great) I'd like to check to see if Starlink is a possibility here... 👍

[Gordomac]

Planet Earth is in man-made turmoil right now and when this has happened in the past , UFO sightings have increased .

In 40 years of professional flying, I have been witness to only one sighting but heard of many. Of course we are not alone !.

[MENELAUS]

You’ve been on the Commanderia again Gordo ?

[Fishwillfly]

Much talk on internal forums about this. Very hard to take pics in low light conditions. Has also apparently been seen over the pacific.
Numerous sources, reliable and consistent accounts. Sometimes the lights move left to right, sometimes create shapes (eg triangles) an sometimes just coming on and off (what I’ve seen) like stars but with constant periodicity.
At first I thought just a slowly rotating geostationary satellite catching the sunlight, but the movement is quite unlike previously seen satellite activity.

[John Marsh]

John Marsh wrote
Collective suggestibility? You were all listening in to the excited comments.

Were you perhaps looking too intensely at celestial objects in the dark, thus making them appear to move about?

Most definitely not! I have been flying the atlantic for 34 years and have never seen anything unusual. However on 17th Nov 2022 I was eastbound and between 40 West and 30 West I saw things I have never seen before.

There were a couple of objects moving which were clearly not aircraft and may well have been satellites. Not very unusual. However then there was a bright light similar to Venus (but not Venus which I have seen hundreds of times) but more like an aircraft head on with its landing lights on, except it suddenly went sideways at great speed for 10 seconds but then reversed its direction.

That disappeared but a few minutes later there was another not so well lit object with another similar one visible. These two then moved very fast in the same direction but not in sufficient formation to be a reflection and then one reversed direction and then after a pause the other changed its direction and followed slowly catching it up.

About this time an American accented voice on 123.45 said "Is anyone else seeing some very strange lights in the sky around 40 West?" Several other voices joined the conversation and there was then a discussion and someone suggested Elon Musk's Starling satellites. However everyone agreed they could not have changed direction like that.
The lights suddenly moving at great speed, then reversing direction do push at the boundaries of the Starlink explanation. What you observed does not sound like the footage of Starlink satellites linked to earlier.

Thank you for your post. If I may reiterate: I do not seek to dismiss unusual sightings out of hand. I am keen to achieve as much clarity as is currently possible.

[AnglianAV8R]

You’ve been on the Commanderia again Gordo ?

St. Pandemonium works too ;)

[nuisance79]

Do we all accept that Starlink Flares are the answer then?

I for one think its worth extended discussion and I would prefer more clarity on what we are seeing.

[Flarkey]

Do we all accept that Starlink Flares are the answer then?

I for one think its worth extended discussion and I would prefer more clarity on what we are seeing.

Unfortunately extended discussion won't get us very far. Eye witness testimony will always be questioned as it is subjective. The only way we can get clarity on what has been seen is through a video with accurate time & location date (or a flight number & time so that location can be derived through ADSB data). This is how we have objectively confirmed that all the videos so far have been Starlink. And it's the only way that a claim that the lights could not have been Starlink will be confirmed too.

[WideScreen]

Unfortunately extended discussion won't get us very far. Eye witness testimony will always be questioned as it is subjective. The only way we can get clarity on what has been seen is through a video with accurate time & location date (or a flight number & time so that location can be derived through ADSB data). This is how we have objectively confirmed that all the videos so far have been Starlink. And it's the only way that a claim that the lights could not have been Starlink will be confirmed too.
Or, maybe just take the expert explanation for granted and leave the tinfoil hat at home (and the superstitious discussions for the bar) ?

Really, all the proper, science based explanations have passed in this thread, there is no doubt any longer.

[albatross]

JOKE —-I can reply with the truth and photos to prove it but the noise of all the black helicopters circling the house is distracting and now. there are 2 fellows in black suits at the door wanting to do a survey of my computer use in exchange for a free pen they are showing me…(RED FLASH).
Hummm…..who are you guys and I forget what I was about to post…oops all my photos are missing from my computer…strange!——JOKE OVER.

[Flarkey]

Or, maybe just take the expert explanation for granted and leave the tinfoil hat at home (and the superstitious discussions for the bar) ? Really, all the proper, science based explanations have passed in this thread, there is no doubt any longer.

Er...I'm the one who has provided the science based explainations in this thread! 🤣 👍

[Flarkey]

https://www.tiktok.com/@joshfit4flight/video/7171617548033592622?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=mobile&sender_web_id=7102303869933225478

[jds_portugal]

Hello.
Last night i saw something that i cannot explain. This phenomena happen for 2 hours until I start my descent. I was flying to Barcelona vor and i spotted what i thought that was a satellite. Commented with my FO, but he did not see it. After a few minutes, the same pattern. That raised the alarms, and now we both started to pay more attention.
We saw what looked like a star, and then another star appeared on the right side and crossed the first star. After a few seconds both disappeared. Was about out height, on the horizon. We saw several times this pattern, separated by some 3/4 min. Always about 1 o clock of our aircraft, witch-ever heading we were flying.
Reaching Madrid, the pattern changed a little. Just one light, stronger, that appeared to move in a circle on the same plain as ours. When was inbound was a strong light, than started to fade and disappeared. When we started descend to Lisbon, we crossed some high clouds and we stop seeing that.
I reported it to the controllers, and asked if there was a military exercise or an military area. They did not have any info on that.
It was my first time seeing something like that, i cannot understand what it was, but pretty sure that is something that someone can explain.

[Flarkey]

Hello.
I reported it to the controllers, and asked if there was a military exercise or an military area. They did not have any info on that.
It was my first time seeing something like that, i cannot understand what it was, but pretty sure that is something that someone can explain.

Hey jds_portugal If you send me the date, time & flight number that you saw this I can check to see if the Starlink explanation checks out....? :8 (Feel free to DM me of you don't want the details published).

[jds_portugal]

Hey jds_portugal If you send me the date, time & flight number that you saw this I can check to see if the Starlink explanation checks out....? :8 (Feel free to DM me of you don't want the details published).

Hello.
Was flight TP843, from FCO to LIS. I think first sight around the border space from marseille to barcelona control, and then until after ccs vor.

Thanks

[Flarkey]

jds_portugal here's your flight track. For simplicity I have taken a point on your flight near Madrid, at 20:37UTC

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/749x464/111e_e21f398f368cbfda6b59e80bef4e1e85b32a945c.jpg

At this time the sun was practically due West and about 44 degrees below the horizon. These fit with the condition where we expect to see Starlink flares. Checking on in-the-sky.org shows that there were multiple Starlink Satellites on the horizon around that time. So it is at least 'possible' that you saw Starlink flaring. If you check the videos I posted earlier in the thread you can see what they look like and if they matched what you saw.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x626/111ddde_092cd75cc5093aab5ce2c8672271f6d3eb1ccee6.jpg

[JanetFlight]

Meanwhile in North Atlantic »»»

https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/z9557u/airline_pilot_chatter_on_12345_during_the_recent/

[25F]

https://xkcd.com/1235/

[John Marsh]

https://www.tiktok.com/@joshfit4flight/video/7171617548033592622?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=mobile&sender_web_id=7102303869933225478
It wouldn't play for me.:{ I offer a quote from Stanton T. Friedman: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_T._Friedman#UFO_investigations_and_advocacy)
Not all UFOs are flying saucers, but all flying saucers are UFOs.
Except the Avrocar, of course.:8

[JanetFlight]

It wouldn't play for me.:{ I offer a quote from Stanton T. Friedman: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_T._Friedman#UFO_investigations_and_advocacy)

Except the Avrocar, of course.:8


As well theTransavia PL-12 Airtruk <3

[fox niner]

We saw the light show as we crossed England this early morning. About 5 lights, swirling around each other, due east.
About 5 degrees above the horizon.
this was our position:
N5120.0 W00300.0
At 0325Z.
klm714

[Flarkey]

We saw the light show as we crossed England thisxearly morning. About 5 lights, swirgling around each other, due east.
About 5 degrees above the horizon.
this was our position:
N5120.0 W00300.0
At 0325Z.
klm714

FlightRadar24 has you on a heading of 072 degrees and at N5120.0 W00300.0 at 0318Z at this time, so heading roughly ENE.
In-the-sky.org shows that there were a bunch of Starlink satellites just above the horizon at ENE, and directly above the sun which was about 42 degrees below the horizon. These are the same conditions for which the Starlink Flares have been confirmed in the past.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/580x386/xx_486f42bc2a3716486fb187bd8d6a34a97b8f90b0.jpg

[Speed_Alive_V1]

Hello all, I'm an air traffic controller operating airspace in the eastern chunk of the North Atlantic. There have been a big increase of these sorts of reports from aircraft recently. We often get asked "is there any military activity?", but nothing displayed on radar.
Occam's razor to me just says satellites flaring, as often the reports are similiar to the comments above, where the sightings are higher and far away, brightly lit before suddenly dimming, which is consistent with solar flaring. If you sit outside and watch for a while you will see the ISS flaring and dimming as it passes overhead. I know you are all well aware of that, and what satellites look like though. You're the ones up there seeing them every night of your working lives.

However yes the swirling/ziz-zagging effect that flight crews are seeing is perplexing and hard to explain. Perhaps what we are seeing is just multiple satellites/starlinks suddenly flaring/dimming quickly, and giving the effect of individual movement, when in reality it is a group transiting in and out of view, displaying an illusion of rapid direction/velocity change etc. Just a hypothisis. It is a strange one though. Maybe we are actually being infested with other flying objects and our commercial airspace isn't as pristine as we like to think it is.

We did have an interesing report from a crew at FL410 very recently saying they saw a group of bright lights "below and dogfighting" at 0500utc, we attirubuted that to some training sortie getting airbourne off a aircraft carrier without telling anyone, or maybe what looked below was just far away and actually well above.

Who knows. It's always curious to get reports though, makes night duties a bit more interesting.

Reports always seem to increase from November onwards every year though, which makes me think it's related to a lower winter sun relative to the viewing position causing increased visual flaring events.
Kudos to Flarkey above for their efforts and for applying science and reason.

[Auxtank]

A very thorough and erstwhile investigation done there. Well done to all concerned.

[fox niner]

Thanks Flarkey for that info.

what we saw overhead England this morning lasted for about 15 minutes. There were 5-7 lights moving around a central point. They were brightening and dimming, with such a bright-dim cycle taking about 45 seconds to complete. All light points did this, not at the same time but as a result sometimes 2 would be at their brightest and the others were at least faintly visible.
All lights were continuously observable.
Especially the concentric pattern was something I have never seen before. This swirling motion was both clockwise and counter-clockwise.

jokes about “CIA satellites above Ukraine” and the like is the best that we could think of.

They were absolutely not moving in a straight line at any time, from our vantage point.

[Mick West]

All lights were continuously observable.
Especially the concentric pattern was something I have never seen before. This swirling motion was both clockwise and counter-clockwise.

They were absolutely not moving in a straight line at any time, from our vantage point.

Very interesting. Could you possibly draw a diagram that represents how they moved - particularly the "concentric pattern" and the "swirling motion". Maybe add a Moon for angular scale.

[MockPuppet]

Someone posted the raw video of one of these sightings;
reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/z982oi/user_uploaded_video_deleted_earlier_today_airline/
Was this one of your guys? Or were you in the air when this sighting went down?

[ShyTorque]

I’ve recently seen a video taken from a passenger window, showing what appear to be similar swirling lights to those described on this thread. However, the lights were below the aircraft, rather than ahead/above in the distance.

[back to Boeing]

Due to a lovely bout of Covid I’ve not been at work since I started this thread. Skimming the thread it seems that it’s likely to be starlink (am I correct that that’s the consensus?). Just to put that to bed, has anyone seen it going west?

[Flarkey]

Due to a lovely bout of Covid I’ve not been at work since I started this thread. Skimming the thread it seems that it’s likely to be starlink (am I correct that that’s the consensus?). Just to put that to bed, has anyone seen it going west?

It has been seen going west across continental USA. Here's one Reddit post...
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/y2n5lf/mufon_case_125796_pilot_records_orbs_over_co_us/

Here's the investigation we did... (turned out to be starlink again)..
Another Pilot Sees Orbs Circling Over the USA ( MUFON Case 125796) | Metabunk (https://www.metabunk.org/threads/another-pilot-sees-orbs-circling-over-the-usa-mufon-case-125796.12693/#post-281600)

[PH-Chucky]

Similar occurence yesterday evening 2045-2115Z north of Scotland and was seen by multiple aircraft on frequency (Scottish) and 121,5.

Sighting was in NW direction and seemed fairly low for such a bright satellite (as if it was FL350-FL450). We thought maybe some military A/C doing refueling or dogfighting with their lights on as it seemed some kind of racetrack pattern were being followed. Moved right to left at high speed, almost to fast for regular aircraft so it fit’s the description of the Starlink Flares as being mentioned.

Only thing weird to me is that it was extremely bright and low on horizon without any distortion of the atmosphere. I’ve seen passes of ISS which were less brighter than yesterday’s sighting. Somehow amazed that such a small Starlink would generate such a strong reflection at such a low angle towards the N’Pole.

[konaman]

How interesting. Might make me try to stay awake on overnight Toronto Gatwick after transit up from Cayman.

[wiggy]

Only thing weird to me is that it was extremely bright and low on horizon without any distortion of the atmosphere. I’ve seen passes of ISS which were less brighter than yesterday’s sighting. Somehow amazed that such a small Starlink would generate such a strong reflection at such a low angle towards the N’Pole.

Sometimes size doesn't matter :bored: , what's doing the reflecting does.....

As an example Iridium "glints" or "flares" that were produced by the early generation Iridium satellites were as bright as magnitude minus 8 or so, brighter than ISS...and those were produced by sunlight reflected off a six foot by three foot'ish metal panel (an antenna).


Iridium Flares (http://www.satobs.org/iridium.html)

[ShyTorque]

Star link satellites, like all others, travel in straight lines.

Reports concerning these lights state that they change direction and “swirl” around each other. How can that be attributed to star link satellites?

[JanetFlight]

Star link satellites, like all others, travel in straight lines.

Reports concerning these lights state that they change direction and “swirl” around each other. How can that be attributed to star link satellites?

I was going to ask precisely the same...!??

[Flarkey]

I was going to ask precisely the same...!??

Because many Starlink satellites flaring one after another in the same part of the sky can look like one object with lights continually swirling around.

I've seen these lights myself and they do look like circling planes. But when viewed through binoculars you can see that they are indeed multiple satellites.

[ShyTorque]

But the OP, (Back to Boeing), specifically said he thought they were not.

[WideScreen]

Let me write some notes on this.

Starlink's satellites do have a very distinct shape, largely one big and flat solar panel, mounted perpendicular on the further rather planar satellite body itself. And a who line of these satellites do line-up in the same orientation with their solar panel (of course slightly deviating according to their earth orbit). Be in the right spot, and you can see the sunlight mirroring in the solar panel, though not for all satellites at the same time.

When the whole (including the viewer) moves, the satellites giving the perfect line-up and providing the sunlight mirroring will "jump" among the line of satellites.

Another item relevant is the light polarization. Given the high-tech solar panel materials, the sunlight mirroring will depend on the polarization, or better, the opposite, where the mirroring will only let through specific polarization directions (which in turn also varies with the viewer position).

Compare this with the good old Polaroid sunglasses, taking away the sunlight reflection from the water surface in swimming pools. Polaroid sunglasses take away the horizontal polarized reflection glare according to the vertical polarization direction of the sunglasses. Turn your head 90 degrees flat, and you have the sunlight reflections in the water back.

Because the satellites as well as the viewer are moving in 3D, the light polarization at the viewer end is probably going to change, because the satellite mirroring surface is not a "mirror" though more a refraction pattern, with the effect that the mirroring is depending on the detailed surface structure of the solar panels as well the incident angles (more than one mirror angle) (so, it's not a bathroom mirror type of reflection).

Another aspect what may cause the perception of "dancing" satellites is, the anisotropic refraction characteristics of glass (cockpit windows). The result is that the same light source will start to end up as 2 or 3 points after it passes the glass. This even happens when the light goes perpendicular through the glass. This is a very strange aspect, not many people know about.

When, may moons ago, in university, my daily driver was a good old and rusty 1976 Austin Mini-van, where the rear door windows "doubled" the headlights of cars behind me. An offset of roughly 2–3 times the diameter of the headlight of the car behind me. The displacement angle was around 30 degrees with the vertical. When taught in physics college about the anisotropic refraction, it became clear to me, this was the reason of the double headlights visible in my car. In those days, there were no fancy led-lights, just ordinary filament bulbs, with no polarization, or whatever.

When such an anisotropic refraction happens, with light, where the polarization does change, the light source will seem to "move" between the 2 anisotropic refraction locations. I think, this is something happening with the described "light-show", where satellites seem to move around each-other (on top of the "next satellite mirroring). Looks very strange, until you understand what is happening with the polarization and the anisotropic refraction.

For those interested in this anisotropic refraction aspect, look-up the wiki articles around this subject.

[JG1]

Flying from Canada to Europe on 28th, at 0530 UTC for about an hour, some strange lights were visible. They moved relative to each other, sometimes quite fast, and occasionally became really bright, almost as if they were aircraft within 5nm with LED landing lights. Perhaps brighter. Our heading was 094, alt F320, between 40w and 30w. They didn't seem to move any higher above the horizon than when we first saw them. I'll post some sequential photos, you'll have to view them in the dark but they're quite clear. The brightest (reddish) light on the right is another aircraft ahead of us. Area of interest is mid lower beneath the arc of stars, a group of 3 lights which form a changing shape triangle. In one photo you can also see how one of the lights seems to zoom up almost vertically whilst the other stars remain static. Photos taken about 7 seconds apart.

[JG1]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x935/20221228_054729_dcefbfa2714b5c2aa8c030520053f890b14f57dc.jpg
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https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x935/20221228_053958_62f9a24b8a144653524d6130b0db5fb8be3fb743.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x935/20221228_054030_f39f82a37148fd19f65ac20f5464be8f068100a9.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x935/20221228_054313_de1e02137285e9351b9846f746630a6e801614a9.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x935/20221228_054320_6d884ead2e2c6c72e10f372d491e1eb2f66f8bfa.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x935/20221228_054326_dd98ea7f1fcd6f85362be06608f854188e5683d2.jpg

[bam160]

We saw it on the 21th of DEC enroute from DEL to SZX. I tried to find nearby objects through the Star Walk2 App, but the only thing it showed even remotely close to the lights was a x-ray telescope (Chandra).

[poppiholla]

Er...I'm the one who has provided the science based explainations in this thread! 🤣 👍

however the explanations you are referring to are for completely different and commonly seen light and flare patterns. One that is quite normal and easy to identify by it's regular pattern and trajectory, even from the ground. This is something different.

[Flarkey]

however the explanations you are referring to are for completely different and commonly seen light and flare patterns. One that is quite normal and easy to identify by it's regular pattern and trajectory, even from the ground. This is something different.

If it is something different why do the videos, times and locations all match the parameters for Starlink flares...? Do you have any examples of objective data where it doesn't match ... ?

[nuisance79]

There is a lot of those Star Link satellites up there now (plus many other independent groups of similar satellites) so is it going to come to the point where whatever is seen, its quite likely it would coincide with one or a bunch of them being quite close anyway? Just posing the question....

[Flarkey]

There is a lot of those Star Link satellites up there now (plus many other independent groups of similar satellites) so is it going to come to the point where whatever is seen, its quite likely it would coincide with one or a bunch of them being quite close anyway? Just a posing the question....

That is true, but the investigations that we have done on Metabunk show more than just a coincidence. The movement of the lights in the videos from aircraft (and the ground) match EXACTLY with the calculated movement and track of the Starlink satellites as calculated in the Stellarium astronomy software. We can even identify precisely which Satellite is flaring and recreate all the movement see in the video. The correlation is probably best shown in this video from Palmdale California, but there are others. To do this requires accurate time and location data and that is usually available from the video metadata, or it can be determined using ADSB track logs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea8BCl2yVU0

[nuisance79]

Is there any examples that you have not been able to map to star-link?

[Flarkey]

Is there any examples that you have not been able to map to star-link?

In the examples where we have good location & time data they have all mapped exactly to Starlink.

[albatross]

Since everybody will be looking up anyway.

https://www.space.com/comet-c2022-e3-ztf-closest-to-sun-thursday-jan-12-2023

[bam160]

Again yesterday flying eastbound over China at ~2130-2200z.

[Flarkey]

Again yesterday flying eastbound over China at ~2130-2200z.

Makes sense. Eastbound over china would be around UTC+7 (depending on exactly where you were). So ~ 4.30am - 5am looking east would get the early morning flares from the rising sun over the horizon.

[Flarkey]

Another report of a similar 'ufo' sighting has been obtained by The Black Vault. Seems likely that this is Starlink satellites flaring again....

https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/theyre-back-faa-air-traffic-control-audio-released-of-ufo-sightings-by-multiple-aircraft/

“They’re Back!”: FAA Air Traffic Control Audio Released of UFO Sightings by Multiple Aircraft – 11/11/22The Black Vault received word of this incident by someone who wishes to remain anonymous, but had access to the FAA database that listed the report. It was sent to The Black Vault in mid November of 2022.

From the below, it appears the date and time of the sighting is: 0640 EST / 1140 UTC on 11/11/2022.

The text related to the incident, as sent via email to The Black Vault, stated the following:

TIME/DATE: 11:38z 11/11/2022

TYPE OF INCIDENT: UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL PHENOMENON: SALT LAKE ARTCC (ZLC), SALT LAKE, UT, (ARTCC)

INCIDENT DETAILS: Initial/Closeout
Call Sign: UPS834
Aircraft Type: B752
Origin: ONT ONTARIO
Destination: BOI BOISE
New Destination: N/A
Remarks:
0640 EST / 1140 UTC 11/11/2022
UPS834/B752 reported unidentified aerial phenomenon above the aircraft while N-bound at FL360, 74 NM West of Yelland Field VOR/DME (ELY) Ely, NV . The unknown phenomenon was 2-3 white lights circling at approximately FL740. FDX1879 / B763, OAK-SLC, E-bound at FL370 reported the same.

ACTIONS/FOLLOW-UP/RECOVERY:
N/A

DIAGRAM MAP: N/A

SOURCE OF INFORMATION:
DEN


https://youtu.be/YmXREu6A2T0

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

I saw this the other night over the Atlantic, my F/O noticed it and I sagely explained it was just starlink satellites flaring.

He asked why the satellites were changing direction as they normally follow a set course.

I replied that it’s apparently an optical illusion. It didn’t seem convincing at the the time tbh and they definitely looked like they were changing direction.

I’ve been watching satellites pass through the sky for years over the Atlantic and these definitely look like they’re rotating in formation and changing direction.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

There is a lot of those Star Link satellites up there now (plus many other independent groups of similar satellites) so is it going to come to the point where whatever is seen, its quite likely it would coincide with one or a bunch of them being quite close anyway? Just posing the question....

Quite.

My wife asked me accusingly, why I just liked girl’s photo on Facebook.

There was definitely some starlink satellites flaring nearby so I said it was that, that she saw and used an astronomy website to prove it scientifically.

She said what she saw (me liking a photo) didn’t look like starlink satellites following a set path and flaring so I said it’s just an optical illusion.

Yay science!

[unworry]

Extraordinary until proven otherwise

Still in the "likely starlink" camp, but glad that everyone is happy to report these strange light shows. The more observations the more data to rule it in or out

[boguing]

There is a pair of satellites which have an unusual flight path. As I first understood it they each fly a helical path, revolving as a pair in a helix around a shared orbit. Stuff I've just read implies that one flies a normal orbit but the other has a helical path around the former. In the right circumstances I can imagine they'd catch the eye.

https://earth.esa.int/eogateway/missions/terrasar-x-and-tandem-x

Perhaps someone more familiar with interpreting orbits could work out if these could have been in the areas mentioned.

(There may be others operating in the same way, but I heard about these particular ones at the time of their launch).

[Flarkey]

Another selection of audio, this time from CONUS. Numerous aircraft reporting bright and 'orbiting' lights near the eastern horizon just before dawn. These are again flaring Starlink Satellites.

Note that on this video the playback of the FlightRadar24 is about 35mins behind the audio. (click here (https://www.metabunk.org/threads/why-racetrack-ufos-are-mostly-starlink-flares.12714/post-286872)if you want to see the details) so the planes reporting the lights were a few hundred miles east of where they appear to be.

https://youtu.be/VAFMcBHbbdE

[Flarkey]

Another reported sighting of similar objects, this time over northern Canada:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/we-re...-lights-near-yellowknife-in-january-1.6277389 (https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/we-re-not-crazy-listen-to-a-flight-report-unusual-lights-near-yellowknife-in-january-1.6277389)


We're not crazy': Listen to a flight report unusual lights near Yellowknife in January:​Air traffic controllers and an approaching flight couldn't identify "two white lights … moving in a circular pattern" that were reported over Yellowknife late at night on Jan. 29.

"Good evening, just wondering, do you got two planes that are just to the east of your field doing circuits or manoeuvres?" a crew member aboard a Canadian North flight from Fort McMurray, Alta., to Yellowknife, N.W.T., asked as it approached the city in northern Canada around 11:15 p.m. local time.

"Negative, I have no reported traffic in the area," an air traffic controller in Yellowknife replied. "Do you have a visual on something?"

"Yeah, we're looking at two lights dancing around here, to the east of your field," the crew of the twin turboprop Canadian North aircraft said. "They're above us, about, I don't know what. We're not seeing them on TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system). But we can see the lights moving around."

I don't have anything on the radar either. Let me talk to centre," the tower responded, likely referring to a flight information centre or flight control centre.

A moment later, the air traffic controller was back on the radio.

"Hey, centre doesn’t have anything about any movement in the area, so I'm really wondering what you're seeing there," they said.

"Yeah, so are we," the flight answered.

"All right, I'm trying to look," air traffic control said, likely peering out of a tower window. "I don't see them from the ground here. Well, I'll keep an eye out. I'll talk with centre again."

"Yeah, no worries," the crew replied. "They're not a risk to us."

Based in the Ottawa suburb Kanata, Canadian North services multiple destinations across northern Canada. As the flight got closer to Yellowknife, the Canadian North crew described seeing the lights "moving around in a circular pattern" well above them, approximately 20 kilometres northwest of the airport.

"We'll talk on the ground," the air traffic controller said. "I'll file a CIRVIS report – this is when we have some sightings that we cannot explain."

Civilian air traffic control in Canada is operated by the private company Nav Canada. According to Nav Canada aviation guidelines, CIRVIS reports – short for "Communication Instructions for Reporting Vital Intelligence Sightings" – should be made "immediately upon a vital intelligence sighting of any airborne and ground objects or activities that appear to be hostile, suspicious, unidentified or engaged in possible illegal smuggling activity." Nav Canada even puts "unidentified flying objects" at the front of a list of "vital intelligence sighting" examples, which also include "submarines, or surface warships identified as being non-Canadian or non-American."

The air traffic controller comes back on the radio again to ask what colour the lights are.

"White," is the reply.

"Roger, thanks."

There's then a pause before the crew member comes back on the radio to say, "We're not crazy."

"No, we believe you."
https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/1676619186091-png.57845/

Initial investigation has shown that the conditions of this sighting again match those for the Starlink Satellites

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/why-are-starlink-racetrack-flares-mostly-reported-from-planes.12720/post-287694


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/907x759/capturev_4f78a42e1484dd6b9867d17ffcfc3a16cc1e069d.jpg