NWS3501

[250 kts]

I'm just watching this flight operating from Moscow to Varadero. Bearing in mind the flight transits Oceanic airspace,of which the majority of controlling authorities having imposed sanctions, how are the operators getting around this?

[CW247]

Would also like to know how they can cross a "British Overseas Territory".


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1450x860/capture_b55c1b36f20dc7ba04fd50773e1477a4f35313c3.jpg

[radiosutch]

I'm told Russian flights still use HF ACARs on transoceanic flights and ordinary ACARs/VDL2 within range. Strange.

[DaveReidUK]

I'm just watching this flight operating from Moscow to Varadero. Bearing in mind the flight transits Oceanic airspace, of which the majority of controlling authorities having imposed sanctions, how are the operators getting around this?

Oceanic airspace does not belong to any country. There is no way that Russian flights can be banned from flying through it.

[bobbytables]

I'm just watching this flight operating from Moscow to Varadero. Bearing in mind the flight transits Oceanic airspace,of which the majority of controlling authorities having imposed sanctions, how are the operators getting around this?

Note that "controlling authorities" here doesn't imply any actual control or authority over the airspace. They're providing a service.

[happybiker]

Would also like to know how they can cross a "British Overseas Territory".

Which overseas territory did they fly over?

[ATC Watcher]

All Russian flights so far I have seen take very good care to navigante outside of the national (sovereign) airspace of the Countries they are banned, which extends only 12 NM from coast. the rest is international airspace where service is due (ICAO 1944 Convention, Article 12 )

[CW247]

Would also like to know how they can cross a "British Overseas Territory".

Which overseas territory did they fly over?

Why Turks and Caicos, as can be seen!

[Denti]

The sanctions have a few limited allowed sanctions. Just bother to read through the relevant notams next time at work.

[Captivep]

Why Turks and Caicos, as can be seen!
It actually looks like it routed between Turks & Caicos and The Bahamas...

[ATC Watcher]

Why Turks and Caicos, as can be seen!
No, they did not overfly their national airspace , but stayed in the international airspace around them .

[DaveReidUK]

It actually looks like it routed between Turks & Caicos and The Bahamas...

Yes, Mayaguana (Bahamas) and Providenciales (Turks & Caicos) are approximately 35 nm apart.

So no infringement of either territory's airspace.

[Magplug]

It is very fortunate that ETOPS is mostly a planning exercise.

The first time they divert the aircraft will most likely be impounded..... unless of course they divert to elsewhere in Cuba or some other banana state that has taken lots of Russian money.

[WideScreen]

It actually looks like it routed between Turks & Caicos and The Bahamas...
On its way back to Moscow, it passed straight over Colonel Hill Settlement Island, part of The Bahamas. No jet scrambling to intercept ?????

[DaveReidUK]

No jet scrambling to intercept ?????

I'd guess that by the time the Bahamas Defence Force had decided whether it was best to scramble a King Air, Caravan or P68 in pursuit of the 777, it was probably too late. :O

[JanetFlight]

some other banana state that has taken lots of Russian money.

Wich includes most of EU "banana countries" (your words, not mine), as well as USA itself ;)

[bobbytables]

It is very fortunate that ETOPS is mostly a planning exercise.

The first time they divert the aircraft will most likely be impounded..... unless of course they divert to elsewhere in Cuba or some other banana state that has taken lots of Russian money.

The friendliness of diversion airports will obviously have been considered when planning. If they were stupid enough to use one stolen from the lessors then it would be easily impounded, but an aircraft genuinely owned by a Russian entity would be unlikely to be impounded. The more likely issues would be related to refusal to deliver fuel and other needed services due to sanctions.

[zerograv]

All Russian flights so far I have seen take very good care to navigante outside of the national (sovereign) airspace of the Countries they are banned, which extends only 12 NM from coast. the rest is international airspace where service is due (ICAO 1944 Convention, Article 12 )

How does this work in terms of ATC, namely, separating other traffic from this flight ? Does ATC receive their Flight Plan and more or less know what's going on, or that's not the case ?
In areas with radar coverage it will be visible to ATC and therefore ATC can deviate other traffic from him, but once it gets in the Atlantic there are large areas where it will be out of radar coverage.

[WideScreen]

How does this work in terms of ATC, namely, separating other traffic from this flight ? Does ATC receive their Flight Plan and more or less know what's going on, or that's not the case ?
In areas with radar coverage it will be visible to ATC and therefore ATC can deviate other traffic from him, but once it gets in the Atlantic there are large areas where it will be out of radar coverage.
When flying at non-standard FL outside the normal IFR corridors, reduce crossing corridor sections where regular level changes may happen and don't cross the IFR corridors at/near intersections, the chance to hit "something" is pretty small. Much smaller than getting hit by something "war" related in Ukraine.

And for ETOPS, the same applies, even without being ETOPS certified, the chances are pretty low you'll need the ETOPS items.

Everything around ETOPS & IFR rulings allowed to be sacrificed to get war stuff from all over the world to win the war with Ukraine. Not sure, IF this is applicable to the named flight.......

[JanetFlight]

How does this work in terms of ATC, namely, separating other traffic from this flight ?

I bet my left hand small finger that 90% of ATC'ers do not know that the icao code NWS belongs to a russian carrier except those who have some kind of planespotter and aviation passion inside them...my humble two cents.

[DaveReidUK]

I bet my left hand small finger that 90% of ATC'ers do not know that the icao code NWS belongs to a russian carrier except those who have some kind of planespotter and aviation passion inside them...my humble two cents.

I'd be surprised if there are many ATCCs that don't have a copy of this on their bookshelf:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/414x535/icao8585_db5e0b0abfd3acd86d0fd51e906050486e4139c4.jpg

[kontrolor]

I bet my left hand small finger that 90% of ATC'ers do not know that the icao code NWS belongs to a russian carrier except those who have some kind of planespotter and aviation passion inside them...my humble two cents.
Say goodbye to your left hand small finger. Every ATCO in Europe knows NWS. And DavidReidUK, I don't know what software you are using (my guess some ancient stuff)....our FDPS has integrated DOC8585, so we don't have to learn all the three letter codes by heart/or look them up in paper version.

[bobbytables]

How does this work in terms of ATC, namely, separating other traffic from this flight ? Does ATC receive their Flight Plan and more or less know what's going on, or that's not the case ?
In areas with radar coverage it will be visible to ATC and therefore ATC can deviate other traffic from him, but once it gets in the Atlantic there are large areas where it will be out of radar coverage.

The sanctions haven't suspended civil aviation cooperation; ATC service is still provided to Russian aircraft in the same way as it is provided to other aircraft.

[JanetFlight]

Allow me to respectfuly disagree...having the 8585 it doesnt mean automatically we are aware of everything there.
For example the "media" incident at JFK regarding the Alitalia versus Air France would have a better outcome if all the parts involved were aware of ITA vs AZA (colours, callsigns, 8585 Code).

[DaveReidUK]

Say goodbye to your left hand small finger. Every ATCO in Europe knows NWS.

I'm sure they do, but bear in mind we're talking about the airspace above the Bahamas/Cayman Islands in this instance.

I don't know what software you are using (my guess some ancient stuff)....

As a penniless retiree, all my software is ancient. :O

[SWBKCB]

I bet my left hand small finger that 90% of ATC'ers do not know that the icao code NWS belongs to a russian carrier except those who have some kind of planespotter and aviation passion inside them...my humble two cents.

Wouldn't they have a flightplan showing the origin and destination ?

[WideScreen]

Wouldn't they have a flightplan showing the origin and destination ?
Probably, because FR24 does seem to know where they are heading for.

However, having a flightplan, does not imply for certain, they are following the filed route. Or just deviate, and somewhere near the end, contact a friendly ATC with the message "here I am", blablabla.

[ATC Watcher]

Everybody seems to either forget (or unaware for the Flight simulator "pilots" here ) that en route ATC is a service provider and not the police. Every aircraft regardless of nationality, origin or destination, will receive the same service, as I am separating it from you also . The next is the difference between Sovreign ( national ) airspace and international one ( read "High seas" ) which some of us tried to explain before . If an aircraft is not allowed in my national airspace, it is an issue for Air defense, not civil ATC.
For us those flights are normal and are being provided the same ATC service as any other aircraft in that airspace.

as to DOC8585, yes it is integrated in most ATC software nowadays. even in the Nassau FIR , who controlled that flight before being transferred to Miami FIR , but we use it sometimes to find the radio call sign , not to find out who owns the aircraft .

[DaveReidUK]

as to DOC8585, yes it is integrated in most ATC software nowadays. even in the Nassau FIR , who controlled that flight before being transferred to Miami FIR, but we use it sometimes to find the radio call sign, not to find out who owns the aircraft.

I would have hoped that ATC software did indeed have an embedded table of Doc 8585 three-letter designators in this day and age.

I'm surprised, though, that the software doesn't also supply the controller (where necessary) with the corresponding operator callsign ("Telephony Designator" in ICAO-speak), for which Doc 8585 is also the authority. Books are so 20th Century. :O

[Nil by mouth]

On a similar theme was the Россия - Rossiya aircraft that took Sergei Lavrov to the G20 in Bali stolen, and would anyone in Bali have the cojones to impound it?

[bobbytables]

On a similar theme was the Россия - Rossiya aircraft that took Sergei Lavrov to the G20 in Bali stolen, and would anyone in Bali have the cojones to impound it?

It's one of the Russian Government's Il-96-300PU.

You raise an interesting hypothetical though. Any other time if one of the stolen aircraft turns up in Indonesia it's likely US pressure would successfully see it impounded. But during the G20 perhaps the desire to avoid a "scene" and disrupt the focus of the summit (any more than it already has been) would prevail.

Regardless, there isn't much prestige in parking your stolen A320 next to Air Force One, so they brought the Ilyushin.

[DaveReidUK]

It's one of the Russian Government's Il-96-300PU.

Yes, operated by Rossiya SLO (Specialny Lyoutny Otryad) - the sub-fleet used for Government/VIP missions. All of the fleet apart from a couple of A319s are Russian-built types and I'd be surprised if any are owned by Western lessors.

[ATC Watcher]

Plus they are considered "State aircraft "in international legal terms, so same category as military. No one will touch them.

[bobbytables]

Plus they are considered "State aircraft "in international legal terms, so same category as military. No one will touch them.

Interestingly there is historical precedent for state aircraft being impounded, though only those of small African nations. Gabon failed to pay $8m for their cabin fitout and their 777 was consequently impounded at Orly. I think something similar happened to Congo.