UK ATC worst in Europe ?

[2 six 4]

Well thanks Mr Sunday Times for your shallow investigation into this subject. You made us all feel it was worth putting in that last shift on another bad day !!!


UK ATC Worst in Europe
Sunday Times - August 25:

Insight: Air traffic control in UK worst in Europe

BRITAIN’S new £620m air traffic control centre has been branded the worst in Europe, causing more than half of all air traffic hold-ups.

An official report by Eurocontrol, which manages European air space, shows the centre is responsible for more delays than all the other 30 national air traffic agencies put together.

It also emerged this weekend that despite the huge investment in technology, passengers are suffering record delays even though the centre, at Swanwick in Hampshire, is handling fewer planes than the old “low tech” system it replaced.

There has been a doubling in the level of delays during this summer’s peak holiday season compared with the same period last year. The failings have also led Eurocontrol to issue a number of warnings to foreign pilots to avoid UK air space unless they have to land in Britain. At the worst times this summer Britons have been three times more likely to be delayed when flying to Mediterranean destinations than German or French travellers. At Gatwick 35% of planes were delayed, with more than 4,000 flights having an average delay of 20 minutes.

The revelations are certain to reignite the row over the centre. John Prescott and Stephen Byers, then transport secretary, pressed ahead with the launch of the system in January and pushed through part-privatisation of the National Air Traffic Services (Nats) despite opposition from backbench Labour MPs.

The poor performance of the centre in its first six months of operation is also a serious setback for Nats, which failed to remove all of the system flaws or ensure there were enough controllers to run it before it opened.

---------------------------------

Insight: Hi-tech shambles of Britain’s airspace

IT HAS been a disaster more than 10 years in the making. Britain’s new air traffic control centre has turned the country’s airspace into the bottleneck of Europe..........

The most damaging indictment is provided by Eurocontrol, the agency that manages airspace capacity. John Byrom, of Eurocontrol, said the UK had accounted for 51% of air traffic delays in Europe since January, compared with less than 15% for the whole of 2001.

In July, the peak holiday month, a 26-page document from Eurocontrol shows that 43% of air traffic delays were caused by Britain..................

The problems are so severe that Eurocontrol has issued bulletins advising pilots to avoid Britain at the worst periods. One on July 25 said: “If routes can be found avoiding UK airspace . . . then rerouting is strongly recommended.”........................

[Bigears]

The report is factually correct, is it not?
It would have been better if they had added a para to the effect that the staff are working as hard as they can.........

[BALOO]

Don't take the report personally. I'm sure that ALL pilots and most of the general public do appreciate that last shift on a bad day. In my opinion, you guys and gals are amongst the best in the world - if not, the best. However, I don't think the report is having a go at you. It reads to me that the new centre at Swanwick is the subject of this report and not the people who are trying to make it work!
I'm not entirely sure why the new centre has had more than it's share of problems - be it government, management, technical etc, but rest assured, there is no animosity to the workers!!!!
Keep smiling - it can only get better "cheerio!" :) BALOO

[beamer]

Cobblers !

They are underpaid, under-manned and over stretched.

And if nothing else they do speak the International language
of the air which is more than can be said for certain others in
Europe.

Good on you guys - I know you can't always give us that
direct we ask for or that slot extension we need but I'm darn
sure that you do your very best at all times.

[Bluejet]

It is an absolute fact, the best sound in the world isbeing asked to contact 'London Control'. There is no doubt you can not get cleaned up, high speed and the hell out of some of our 'neighbours' airspace' fast enough.

UK ATC we think your great!!

[AMEX]

They are underpaid, under-manned and over stretched

Seems to be the 21st century aviation industry's general status ;)

re: UK ATC, what a pleasure to get a speedy, efficient and safe service. Keep it up (If they let you:()

[Nightrider]

Headlines are what make the world interested in reading nonsense. UK ATC provides a most safe and efficient service, and here I mean the men and women behind the voices we love to hear day by day.
When introducing new procedures, new equipment, new technology, it always has been some kind of a challenge for everyone.
I hope that all can remember the introduction of the B757 which was the cause for plenty of delays as pilots have been trained to slow down the aeroplanes early enough thus spoiling the approach sequence for everyone else...
I hope that everyone can remember the introduction of heavy jets which was the cause for plenty of delays as the other pilots had to accept a higher separation...
I hope that everyone can remember the introduction of the RVSM airspace...
The list continous and none of them was called unsafe or "worst" invention.
All has to settle, the manpower calls for adjustment, all will improve.
The amount of air-traffic originating in the UK, heading to or over the UK has increased dramatically and no one has taken this into account.
It is easy to complain, it takes a lot of skill and dedication to perform like we see and hear it everyday.

[Avman]

Beamer ,

"And if nothing else they do speak the International language
of the air which is more than can be said for certain others in
Europe."

What a prattish statement. I wonder how the likes of you would react if ICAO decreed that French or Spanish should be the new international language and be spoken in the UK.
ALL foreign controllers speak English with English speaking pilots. And by the way, many of my European colleagues have a better command of the English language than some British ATC and flightcrew people I know.

[andrewc]

The Sunday Times has really gone downhill in the quality of
its reporting over the past ten years. Their journo's seem
to be operating from 'Distort the truth with statistics 101'
nowadays.

It would have been interesting to compare the volume
of problems with the relative volume of traffic going through
UK Airspace compared with that of the rest of Europe.

But I dare say that might not be quite such a good story.

-- Andrew

[luoto]

I read it as the 'centre' is a pile of crap rather than the actual people at the sharp end trying to use the systems. Is that not what the article says?
We all want to have greeat confidence in the place we work, even those for certain Irish and British airlines that attract some, err, scorn, but ...
Apologies if I've managed to misread or mis some nuances.

[Robert Vesco]

I can not judge about the efficiency of the computersystems or understaffing etcetera, but for as far as ´over the radio´ is concerned I think the UK ATC is providing an excellent service.

[vectorer]

From one of the sharp ends in TC, thanks for your continuing support, as someone said, it can only get better!

[411A]

Worst in Europe? Don't really think so, BUT certainly NOT the "best" either.
One need only look just slightly further east for the best...Netherlands.
Germany number two...UK a distant third, about on par with the French, IMHO.:rolleyes:

[Avman]

I hope the boys and girls at "Maastricht Control" get your vote too 411A ;) !

[411A]

Especially Maastricht, Avman. Best in the business IMHO, Amsterdam also.
Sad to say, even Spain is now sometimes better than the UK.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Now least some think that I am "dumping" on the UK (has been known to happen:rolleyes: ) but it does seem that the new hardware is letting the guys down.
Beancounters running the show?:eek:
IF so, very bad news indeed.

[unwiseowl]

I suggest that NATS needs just what BA needs i.e., the removal of 90% of their management!!!

[Capt.KAOS]

besides...... LHR is on top of the lost luggage list (together with CDG, if that's a comfort). The international language speaking guys need to clean up their act apparently.......

Capt.KaOs

[2 six 4]

Thanks for the supportive replies. It gets more difficult each day when you know you are doing your best and what was once world renowned is now the joke of cheap journalism.

We might not get you there the quickest anymore but sure as hell we will do our best to keep you safe.

[Seriph]

Best in the business by far. 411A's comments are interesting, what would an Americam know about efficient ATC and RT discipline? seems you have to be into jive talk over there.

[maxalt]

411A I do not agree. Amsterdam (Schipol) ATC are not the best in my experience.
Often snotty, short tempered and argumentative, and frequently lacking any understanding of the capabilities of the aircraft they are controlling. For instance...being vectored at 90deg angle toward the NDB RW19R (ILS off the air), then 1nm from overhead the beacon being told 'you are cleared NDB approach 19R contact tower....' What kind of rubbish is that?

I've never found LHR controllers to be anything less than excellent. LATCC likewise.

Maastricht are usually good...but then they have a lot of Irish guys keeping the dutch heads on straight.

[Maxfli]

Good or Bad ?

Sometimes things fall into place sometimes not.

On the whole, by virtue of the fact that in my experience nobody is better than UK ATC, then I think they are the best in the world.

[BusyB]

411a, Yes, I do think you're dumping on the UK. In 29 years I have always been glad to hear UK ATC on my return. When airborne they have always been of the highest standard. On the ground delays due the infrastructure are not life endangering. As for Amsterdam, yes, they are quite good but not as good as their English leads you to believe. Its just as well we haven't brought the US ATC into this isn't it.

The UK controllers have my total support. Also sympathy for the incompetent Management and Government that have led to this story.

[av8boy]

"Its just as well we haven't brought the US ATC into this isn't it. "

Please do! Let's say I have a clinical interest... Less interested in a ranking than I am in thoughts as to where we're falling short and what we can do to improve... Is this a comment having to do with individual controller performance or does it refer to something in the systemic/policy/management realm?


av8boy:confused:

[Squawk7777]

Great ... this is becoming a UK vs the rest of Europe/the world thread!

Let's remove all the nationalism/patriotism involved in this issue, what apparently makes UK ATC so bad?

BRITAIN’S new £620m air traffic control centre has been branded the worst in Europe, causing more than half of all air traffic hold-ups.

I don't think (UK) controllers have an interest to delay planes etc. And yes, (UK) controllers are friendly most of the time, since it is their job to work with pilots, but there are still a great number of delays! Everything I read so far, does not explain or goes too much into depth. And please... a over 600 million quit investment for the same amount of delays. I'd be kinda pi$$ed too ...

UK ATC let's hear it from you, especially the controllers! What is your criticism? I am not interested in any "we're the best" blablabla, I'd like to read some details and problems ATC has.

Hey mods, any chance creating a crosslink from the NATS forum to this thread?

In July, the peak holiday month, a 26-page document from Eurocontrol shows that 43% of air traffic delays were caused by Britain

Is that published on the internet?

[av8boy]

I hope MY post wasn't taken as nationalistic (jingoistic, xenophobic, etc, etc) posturing... It's just that the US ATC thing was invoked so casually that I can't help but think I'm the only one who DOESN'T understand what the implication is. Of course, talking fast and not pausing between transmissions comes to mind (mea culpa, mea culpa…), as does ending a sentence with a preposition, like I did before. Or sentence fragments. Or starting a sentence with “and” (or “or”). And the unnecessary splitting of an infinitive. OK. So I'm overdoing the lighthearted thing. Sorry. Long day.

Don't be shy... I'm not itching for a fight here. Just looking for some honest criticism. (And yes, I understand that the ATC forum is the obvious choice for this discussion, but hey, I found it here.)


av8boy

[freightdog727]

Flying cargo mostly out of Germany (very often to Bristol,Coventry
and East Midlands) I´m always happy when handled over to London.These boys and girls do a excellent job compared to Germany (many route changes,restrictions etc.) mastricht and brussels are o.k.
Who´s really sucking are the french frog eater´s. Flying a circle around Paris is always fun...also their English and especially their
spelling of waypoints which for 99% are not in the flightplan is
great.
No blame on british controlers!

[beamer]

Avman - thankyou for your considered opinion of my 'prattish' reply - just checked the dictionary, don't think its in there old boy.

I accept that controllers are required to speak English/American
to foreign aircraft in their airpsace - the problem comes when they
insist on speaking in Spanish/French/Italian or whatever other
language to local based or registered aircraft. This is fine at a
small grass strip but when used at an international airport or
in controlled airsapce use of local language to some aircraft and
not to others causes, quite simply, confusion. Professional pilots,
in attutude as well as employment,should always be taught not only to 'look out' but also to 'listen out' - not an easy task when different languages are being used. Talk to any pilot operating in
Europe in commercial aircraft and they will know the problem.
I want and need to know what the other guy is doing and where
he is - mistakes happen (recent Swiss mid-air) - I don't have time
to waste trying to comprehend the airborne situation in another
language.

If your 'mother tongue' is English, you do have a natural advantage of course - I can get by in French but do I also have to
become fluent in Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Turkish etc etc ?

We all know which states are the worst in this respect - it is not
a question of ability more a question of attitude - is'nt it Senor ?

Still, perhaps a solution in Europe at least. We all know that Tony
Blair is desperate for us to join the Euro - three years max I reckon - why don't we all quickly learn Esperanto at the same time then all of us in the EU can not only use the same currency but speak the same language as well. So watch out all you guys
from Delta/American/Cathay/Quantas etc - before you know it you
will all be signing up to learn a new language before being allowed to fly in the United Staes of Europe.

[lost soul]

After a mid-day flight from the UK into Olbia (Sardinia) the other day no-one can convince me that the UK ATC is the worst in Europe! As usual Sardinia was a complete mad-house! The route takes one over Corsica where the VHF is in a mixture of French and English which then degenerates into a worse mixture of Italian,English and shouting!! After that the UK ATC is absolutely wonderful!

[Numpo-Nigit]

Going back to the original post, as one on the inside, I feel that the Sunday Times published an accurate summary of the facts. I certainly don't feel personally insulted, more relieved that the appalling truth is gradually reaching a wider audience.

As a colleague said recently, working at Swanwick is like watching the slowest train wreck ever. An excellent description!! Each day a little more of the disaster unfolds in front of your eyes, but there is absolutely nothing you can do to change the course of events. I just hope I'm still unscathed when the train finally comes to a halt, and that there are no fatalities.

[BlueEagle]

Notwithstanding anything that Numpo-Nigit has to say about ATC to-day, we should not forget that the Insight team at the Sunday Times made a total cock up of their report into the Korean Airliner being shot down and demonstrated that they had not made even the slightest effort to understand INS, (as it then was), or indeed anything else technical and sought only to present a very dramatic but totally inaccurate yarn to the unitiated public. I rarely read the Sunday Times now, it is just a very large tabloid, but I kept the faith for a number of years after KAL007 and Insight never improved beyond the level of Enid Blyton.

Personally I think UK ATC is the best and I ask 411A when he was last in command of an aircraft in UK airspace?

[jocko0102]

The majority of controllers in this country are of a good standard however the problem is they are not given the oportunity to give valuable enough input into decision making, that instead is left to managers who dont know there arse from their elbow!
Swanwick was never going to increase capacity and reduce delays only a complete overhaul of airspace in this country will put us on the right track.It is all very well the government saying they want more airports and more runways but there is no space up above to put them and no one in management/government is talking about that, because they dont know what they are doing!
It does not mean that controllers are always right but the pressure is on and thats when the mistakes happen and NATS mangement dont want to know.They have followed in the footsteps of New Labour all "spin" to make us look good but the reality is somewhat different.

[BusyB]

AV8BOY, No insult intended, US ATC is one of the better ones around the world but as you say speaking too fast and a somewhat impatient attitude with others drops them a few places. I feel you just assumed that you were alongside 411A as he runs down anything remotely British.

[Mr_Grubby]

Anybody remember Victor Smart ?

Aviation correspondant on the Observer 1985-89ish.

Now he was a hack who had his finger on the pulse. Produced some very good articles when we at LATCC had our backs to the wall. Reading them now, nothing has changed.

Mind you, he had some good informants.

Mr G.

[luddite]

Three cheers for British ATC! (despite their politically induced problems) Whenever I hear 'Contact London on......' I know the day's improving.
;) :cool: ;)

[Squawk7777]

BTW, there are five official ICAO (ATC) Languages:

English
French
Spanish
Russian
Chinese

Going back to the original post and the posting by Numpo-Nigit it seems that the current ATC system cannot handle more traffic without a fundamental change. I thought 600 mil quit is fundamental enough or is it (again) a political back-firing investment? The Sunday times article does NOT point to the individual controllers who seem to save the day (365/year) but more to the current politics.

With my little international experience I can say that I need to talk to ATC in Spanish sometimes (esp. central/south America). And Spanish is not my native language. I could be totally frustrated but IMHO that's part of your job as a pilot. I'd rather accept this challange than listening to my complaining and whining captains all the time ("This is ridicilous, blablabla"). And when we got a trip overseas and to Canada I talk to them in French. Is it fair compared to a single-language speaker (english)? Certainly not! Unsafer? Well, we then should open another thread.

I understand you UK pilots excitment when you first talk to your home ATC. I feel the same way when I contact ...

[2 six 4]

Again some interesting replies. I was never seeking to have other ATCOs denegrated and assume that they do their best in the circumstances and with the management and equipment supplied.

An interesting point about an overhaul of the airspace - long overdue but not an explanation why we are working less traffic at Swanwick per ATCO than we did at LATCC.

Why did our management say to the Transport Select Committee that we had a surplus of ATCOs when we are so short only months afterwards.

Why were the predictions of increased traffic handling maintained right up to the O date and beyond ?

Why are we regularly dumping traffic on Manchester and TC and they cope with all the extra traffic but we can hardly cope with the reduced levels.

You guys get all the c**p. Slot delays and level capped - can't do much for your company profitibility. In the meantime we divert trans Atlantic traffic out of UK airspace to protect ourselves and lose the highest income flights !!!

I don't know anyone in ATC who doesn't love Gwyneth Dunwoody. As Chair of the Transport Select Committee she has fought our case against NATS / CAA / Governments for years. Maybe it is time to have a fresh look at this and have Gwyneth and all the major players give evidence about what has happened and what needs to happen in the future to improve things .... How do you call for a Royal Commission ?

[Squawk7777]

2 six 4

you wouldn't know what that 26 page document contains, would you?

[2 six 4]

squwak 7777 It will be the management report which explains the public figures from Eurocontrol.

Delays (http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.be/ATFM/public/docs/publicreport_200207.pdf)

[Squawk7777]

2 six 4 thanks!

For all you interested in a little more "depth" regarding this thread, go to the "ATC Issues" forum

[411A]

Blue Eagle
In answer to your question, late 2001.

[Lazlo]

The article may be correct and factual but the headline is crap. If it had read "UK ATC Worst in Europe for Delays" then maybe that would be OK but "UK ATC Worst in Europe"? That's just sensationalism that is more suited to the likes of The Sun. UK ATC is far and away the best in Europe from a pilots perspective (except for the delays of course).

Lazlo

[shakespeare]

Even though our beloved cousins sent us to the colonies over 200 years ago for our sins, there is one thing I will never begrudge them. They are by far and away the best ATCO'S in the world. If they had a descent system to work with, they would be even better. 411A, comparing the Poms to the Frogs is like suggesting Hitler was a closet homosexual. The 2 just don't go together. The French are good blokes (and the woman controllers sound absolutely gorgeous), but they are along way behind the Brits in terms of efficiency and professionalism.

No I am not a closet Monarchist. I did however have the privelege to live and work in Europe for some time and the poms get my vote every time. Long live Derek and Nigel!

[TheFox]

Squawk7777,

My understanding is those languages are for documentation only, but i could be very wrong.

[reynoldsno1]

Reynard is correct

[Cathar]

TheFox

You are very right. The official ICAO languages are for documents etc (I beleive that arabic is now also an official language). They do not relate to ATC. The rule is still that language used should be that normally used by the station on the ground or on request english.

[Devils Advocate]

I'm not going to get involved with some jingoistic crap about who’re the ‘best’ ATCer’s, because there’s good and bad in all the systems, indeed and maybe especially so when one considers that the fella operating a sector in Albania probably has stuff-all kit ( veritably 2s6d worth of ex Soviet crap ) to work with, whilst UK ATC get £650,000,000 (just for Swanwick).

That said, and if you’d like proof of professionalism, try declaring an emergency just after take-off in the UK albeit w.r.t. that which happens in various (supposedly co-joined) states within the United States of Europe !
E.g. In the UK the controllers are very definitely a +ve asset when things are going wrong ( where indeed to say ‘Ace’ would be to understate it ! ).

However, in some parts of Europe it might definitely pay to ignore ATC when the sh!t hits the fan (so to speak), i.e. even when it’s all seemingly going ok they can hardly cope – never mind in a ‘Mayday’ situation – i.e. where what’s required is cool, calm, and collected thought, plus clear communications ( in every respect of the word) – i.e. UK ATC personified !

[Squawk7777]

Cathar & Fox

I believe that those languages also apply to ATC (IFR comm). Can't find anything yet, but ... it is out there somewhere.

[Max Angle]

I think there is little argument that ATC'ers in the UK are amongst the best there are but as a complete service things have got much worse since Swanwick came online. Many routes we fly out of LHR to the North of the UK and Ireland are level capped at FL180 or have to be re-routed at short notice, we suffer long slot delays for many routes and the restriction is more often than not a London one. We are basically unable to operate our schedule a good deal of the time. Add to that the R/T quality from the new centre, which is diabolical much of the time, and all in all Swanwick has not been a a real flop for my point of view.

Many controllers seem to feel the same which means someone should have some very expensive egg on thier faces.

[Mr_Grubby]

Max Angle.

When you say the R/T quality from Swanwick is diabolical, do you mean the reception of the transmission or the instructions you are being given are diabolical ?

Mr G.:confused:

[Frequent SLF]

The real authority on this is ICAO Annex 10, Vol II which says:

5.2.1.2 Language to be used

5.2.1.2.1 Recommendation.— In general, the air-ground radiotelephony communications should be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground.

Note.— The language normally used by the station on the ground may not necessarily be the language of the State in which it is located.

5.2.1.2.2 Recommendation.— Pending the development and adoption of a more suitable form of speech for universal use in aeronautical radiotelephony communications, the English language should be used as such and should be available, on request from any aircraft station unable to comply with 5.2.1.2.1, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.


My reading of that is that you should use the language of the folks on the ground. Failing that, try English! ;)

[Capt Veeclean]

UK ATC is most certainly not the worst in Europe (just look at Belgium!). They are probably the best in the world, despite the pressure they have to bear from the politicians and their beancounter management. Others have said it - it's often a relief to hear that competent well-trained voice, who's there to help, not hinder, expedite your flight and keep you safe and separated from all those others out there. We should thank them, not have a go at them.

[tailscrape]

The writer has obviously not been to Greece!

[ATC Watcher]

This topic "who is the best ATC " seeem to come back with regularity every 18 months or so. Just like the club of old women looking at the only men at the table and asking "who is the most beautiful "

The UK has the enormous advantage of sound regulations, safety-orientated staff , relatively well paid ( compared to the rest of the world ) and using their mother tongue to work.
In addition to this, they are indeed good professionals in the majority . So they are definitively on top of the ladder.
Where exacty is unimportant, as ( my views ) we should all co-operate and help one another rather than compete.
I would not like to be working at LATCC today.

Now for something REALLY interesting : how about starting a thread on "which airline has the best and which one the worst pilots ? ";)

[salzkorn]

I hope they do speak the international language of aviation, if anything !!!!! it's their mother tongue ! easy !
it would be a shame.....

avman wrote : "Beamer ,

"And if nothing else they do speak the International language
of the air which is more than can be said for certain others in
Europe."

What a prattish statement. I wonder how the likes of you would react if ICAO decreed that French or Spanish should be the new international language and be spoken in the UK.
ALL foreign controllers speak English with English speaking pilots"

how true !!!

freightdog727 : Who´s really sucking are the french frog eater´s. Flying a circle around Paris is always fun...also their English and especially their
spelling of waypoints which for 99% are not in the flightplan is
great.
No blame on british controlers!"

haha ! I'd rather read that than be blind..... that is crap.
What nationality are you ? British ? then go back and eat your green jelly, drive on the left side of the road, and wear a kilt... easy to insult people, you know, even French people can do that !!!

and concerning French ATC... people keep on saying in this forum that "poor British controllers, they do what they can, it's not their fault if the system sucks." Hey !! ever wondered if it's not also the case in other countries? Do you know how our system work ? do you know why you wait above Paris ? what do you know about the inside of French ATC (and others...). Probably not much....
and the waypoint are in the FMS, if you are RNAV equipped, just learn how to read first...

[Proceed As Cleared]

What should be considered as well is, that the quality of service ATCOs are able to provide depends on other factors which are beyond their control, for instance noise abatement procedures, size of airspace, staffing levels, complexity of route structure.

And bashing controllers about their english language skills is inappropriate and unprofessional, Mr. freightdog!

:mad:

[Mowgli]

The article in the ST does nothing for the morale of the UK controllers who I think are great. I believe more could be done to support the UK controllers who suffer from undermanning and therefore are overstretched.

I would welcome more exposure in the media of the diificulties that the UK controllers have, and what a good job they do despite their challenging circumstances. Also, the likes of Ms Dunwoody MP would I am sure fight the controllers' corner where it matters.

The media coverage to date merely reflects on the huge amount of public money that has been spent at Swanwick, with no apparent improvement in service.

Come on controllers, get your message out and stand up for yourselves. We're all on side.

[crj-jockey]

@salzkorn

I´m flying to LFPG quite frequently. But nobody scares you better!
French is ICAO language,ok. But what about situational awareness? What about a lot of RWY-incursions at de-Gaulle? Wasn´t there a recommendation for ALL the pilots and controlers to speak english 2 years ago?
Well, nothing happend, nothing changed!
What a shame!:(
However, nice nick!

[salzkorn]

crj-jockey
I agree with you : I'm in favor of a single language radiotelephony, be it English, French, German, Chinese or Swahili. Sometimes I see me walking in non French speaking pilots' shoes and I think : "wow, how stressing not to understand everything."
OK. I just can't do it alone in my corner.....
But what got on my nerves when I wrote my message was that way that some have to say : "hey, British controllers are the best in the world, and at least they speak English, THEM !!!"
I would be curious to know how well it would be, if radiotelecommunications were to be conducted in Chinese or Russian....
I don't know anything of German control, but I would say that German pilots at least speak English THEM. That way it's ok, because it's not their mother tongue...

As far as capabilities of controllers are concerned : nobody seems to express any doubts about the one of British Controllers. I wouldn't either. But please try to be a bit more open minded, and don't doubt the one of LFPG ontrollers (I talk about what I know). We have many constraints, we have a restricted airspace, we have Le Bourget very close (although North departures are not really concerned), we suffer from undermanning too, maybe bosses are not as good as they could be (don't want to expand on that.....) etc etc.... You don't know all those pbs, the only thing you know is the result of those constraints, which are not always the more suitable for you....
If I were to judge British ATC by what I read of its results, I would say it is quite poor.; whereas all of you seem to say controllers are quite good. It's just also the case in some other places..... stop looking down at your belling button for a while.

As for the English level of some of us..... I agree that sometimes, work still have to be done.... It scratches my ears when I hear some of my colleagues say "contact Departüüüre on ...."
ouch....

crj-jockey, for the nick, you're welcome :)
Ich wünche, dass ich bald auf der Funk in CDG mit Dir sprechen werde ;) "

[Proceed As Cleared]

Chapeau, Monsieur salzkorn (alsacien?)!
Your english is very sophisticated for a frenchman.
;)

Und Dein deutsch ist auch nicht schlecht! ;)


Seriously now, constraints like restricted airspace and other things which I've mentioned in my previous post are a common concern for controllers all over europe.
They're all sitting in the same boat in that respect.

[Direct HALIFAX]

On another thread, it's stated that the R/T quality at Swanwick is not good.

How bad is it ? Is it a serious problem NATS Mgt. should be doing something about because I'm sure they are not at the moment.

[salzkorn]

Hallo Proceed,

Salzkorn is a young woman :p and she is not from Alsace :)

[PODKNOCKER]

London ATC have always sounded like they had their heads in a bucket of cotton wool. You turn the volume up to hear them then get deafened by the next aircraft to transmit. Scottish on the other hand are crisp and sharp...must be the whiskey! Hoped for 21st century comms with the new centre, but it is just the same.
We have a $180m wonderjet with the cheapest headsets on the market, expect London ATC have the same.

[JW411]

They sound OK to me.

[Proceed As Cleared]

Excusez-moi, Mademoiselle, but shouldn't it be salzkorne then? :)

[Squawk7777]

Regarding (English as) the international language ...

Last time I flew to the UK I had to concentrate to fully understand British English. For a non-english native speaker different dialects matter more than one would think (England, Scotland, Ireland, New Yawk etc.) . But it is not only English; it took me longer than expected to flawlessly understand Canadian ATC en francais . Y espanol? Forget it, when you fly over Cuba. I need to talk to them in English.

I know I am missing the point here a bit :rolleyes: , but I thought it was worth bringing it up.

[what's it doing now?]

Whenever I return to the UK and call London ATC, I always breathe easier, knowing I've returned to the best air traffic control in the world. They do a great job, under a lot of pressure, and always seem to have plenty of spare capacity.

This equally applies to all the UK ATC facilities, not just London.

I don't know any pilot who doesn't feel the same. Keep up the good work.

:cool:

[Bigears]

Just when you thought this one was dead.......
Squawk 7777, the link you requested is here (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dgs/activities/coda/reports/)
Rather large reports, but full of interesting information about delays (and more).
Remember folks, the people at the sharp end are working their butts off, so blame something else, not them!

[Squawk7777]

Thanks bigears!!!

One more question though, where or who is the best place to summit your complains to? I understand that you guys are working very hard to accomodate us unpatient pilots :rolleyes: so I suppose it is time we should ring up upper management ....

[Nogbad the Bad]

I couldn't agree more Squawk777.....yes, please DO get in touch with Management, but if you want to get somewhere, go RIGHT TO THE TOP !!!

The man to contact is Mr Richard Everitt......don't go to anyone else, as the whole bunch of upper management within NATS isn't worth tuppence !!!

However, I am sad to say I am unsure of how you DO get in touch with him. I hope someone might know the contact reference, or even his email address ?

[Bigears]

From the NATS website, no less.........Customer Contact Guide (http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/Operations%20Contact%20Guide%20April%2020021.pdf) .

[wallabie]

Worst in Europe ???? Says who ??

That is horse manure ! I'd say it's by far the best although I think privatizing was a big mistake.
Keep on boys and girls, you're doing a terrific job. Just hope you'll still get the means to keep it that way.

[Atropos]

It doesn't matter who's the best and who's the worst, we need to get everyone in Europe up to the same standard as 'the best' in order to prevent the sort of accident that happened to the Streamline shed 2-3 years ago at CDG where someone actually died because of the language problem.

I understand that it was tentatively agreed that English would be spoken at CDG because of this accident and AF agreed but the French regionals put their feet down and insisted on retaining the right to speak French. Nice to know that a life wasn't lost in vain!

The standard of ATC across Europe is, in my opinion, improving. There are definate black spots like Greece and some areas of the Iberian Peninsula, been into Madrid on 18R lately? However, things are improving. I operate out of LGW where I think the single runway operation and the slickness and the professionalism of the team on the ground is incredible. I'm sure there are numerous examples of this all over Europe, I hope so anyway. It seems that until we take the politics out of air safety and by that I mean National interest as well we will never end up with a truly common standard across Europe, maybe a common Eurocontrol agency and centralised control is the only way it could be achieved.

[wallabie]

Atropos

Sorry mate, do not agree with you. This poor fellow lost his life 2 years ago mainly because aircrafts were then allowed to line up from taxiways where they didn't have full view of what was coming from the threshold. They've put a stop to it. That the language may have been a contributing factor can be debated until the cows come home. Canada for one thing operate on a 2 languages basis, spanish speak spanish, italians.........etc.
The use of english in CDG wasn't abandoned for the sole reason of regional lobbies but because it was just havock and dangerous. You suddenly had french people unable to understand each other ( not that do when they speak french but that's another story ) and that made things really dangerous. I know, I was there. Added to that, you're right, the unavoidable twitt who lives in the stone age backed up by a very stupid law, voted years ago that just made it plain illegal.
It would take a politician with balls ( a contradiction in terms ) to scrap that law and it bet you it will still be there long after I eat the daffodills by the root.