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View Full Version : BA lost its glitter now set to lose pilots?


kippa
18th Jan 2001, 17:35
Seems that BA's idea of market rate being less than market rate is now causing some of the not so junior F/O's to look elsewhere.

Anyone know if this is true?

ManaAdaSystem
18th Jan 2001, 18:28
I`ve learnt one thing since i started flying a number of years ago. Jobs come and go, airlines come and go. What looks like the worlds best job offer today, means you`ll be writing job applications (again) tomorrow.
I work for one of the majors (not BA). There is no way i`m leaving my seat for some shiny goldplated aircraft out there in the distance. I just treasure waking up in the morning, knowing my job is still there.
It may not be the best airline in the world, but its not far from it.

Not exactly an answer to your question, kippa, but it seems everyone is having a go at the majors these days. I just felt like telling you all that i am not ashamed of working for one, as a matter of fact i`m quite proud. Throwing a few my way is not going to change that.

Affangu
18th Jan 2001, 22:19
Edited due the phone throwing me offline
(See below)

[This message has been edited by Affangu (edited 18 January 2001).]

Affangu
18th Jan 2001, 22:26
Manadasystem,
It's that kind of complacent attitude that makes me happy to be working for a sleeves rolled up bare knuckle fighting outfit that needs enthusiasm throughout the ranks to survive. None of this "we can lose 85M/quarter and still survive" rubbish.

And before any Nigel says "keep sending the c.v." I honestly haven't updated the thing since I got my job, and if everything did go pear shaped tomorrow, I wouldn't be applying to BA. I'd rather be somewhere I can make a difference.

Stick your majors. Besides, I don't want the pay cut.

javelin
18th Jan 2001, 22:48
I may be wrong, but I think Manadasystem is simply saying he is happy where he is - or she! I am happy where I am, I can't say it is the best, but it sure isn't the worst and subject to dire circumstances, i feel that my company will still be here in 20 years time. Compromise sometimes works, the usual reason that the grass is greener over the fence is that the farmer is throwing more sshit on it !

beaver eager
19th Jan 2001, 02:02
I believe I've posted this or similar on another thread somewhere, but I think kippa's onto something.

I reckon the Nigels must be ready for a punch-up with their management by now. Their pay and conditions and status have been slowly eroded over the past years of the recession (The Ayling Years).

Now that the likes of Eazy and Ryan have woken up to the fact that there is going to be a Pilot shortage soon, it has become obvious that the Nigels are actually subsidising the excesses of the other departments within BA.

Just think about the wages that the aforementioned low cost carriers are paying for short haul pilots compared to their seat prices. Now compare that with BA's seat prices.

It kind of spoils any argument BA management could put forward about Flight Crew costs being too high and the need for further belt tightening.

I reckon that if Rod Eddington thinks he's going to get away with another 'hatchet job' he's got another thing coming!

strobes_on
19th Jan 2001, 02:12
Welcome to the fantastic world of 'rule by Rod'.

His slash and burn treatment is second to none.

ManaAdaSystem
19th Jan 2001, 02:25
Affangu,

Complacent attitude?? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif
I see nothing wrong with working for a well run company making a healthy profit, together with motivated and professional collegues. A company offering jobsecurity, good workingconditions and a nice paycheck. Not to mention having a well trained ground organisation ready if i need it.
Major=complacent attitude? Who ever gave you that idea? How can you comment if you haven`t worked for one?

Boeing Belly
19th Jan 2001, 06:50
Has Mr Ed put out the old staff opinion survey yet? Look out when he does. Shortly after you're f***ed!

The Zombie
19th Jan 2001, 15:47
Time to get those tin helmets on again and get down into the shelters, I think. :)

ETOPS
19th Jan 2001, 17:34
I have got in front of me the latest pay scales for American Airlines. It is public data as it appeared today in "Aviation Daily". Boeing 757 Captains earn upto $14631 per month and 777 Skippers over $17000 per month. There is an additional $6/hr (overide) for international flights and an upcoming 2.5% increase from 31/8/01.
To put this in perspective I am a BA 75/76 Captain and these figures are over double my earnings. The co-pilot/flight engineer figures are similarly way above BA rates.

If you want to earn big bucks you know where to go!!

kippa
20th Jan 2001, 00:26
Yeh ETOPS, But you are market rate.

The Zombie
20th Jan 2001, 00:46
Kippa,
why don't you say what you mean and not mince your words!

Which market anyway was that rate?

kippa
20th Jan 2001, 00:59
The Zombie, good point, looks like all pilots in UK are governed by Great Britian plc. market rates. Can you think of any other international industries within the UK that are governed by similiar parochial wage structures?

Ignition Override
20th Jan 2001, 03:51
A unified pilot group (yes, union membership with strong solidarity: there is no susbstitute at the negotiating table-without one, you can negotiate nothing) with serious representation is the only way to have industry-level salaries when working for US airlines.

Other than very good salaries in previous years at pre-union FEDEX (pilots earned industry-level by working extra on scheduled days off), who can name any other non-union pilot group in the US whose pilots received salaries equal to the majors? Just curious.

Carnage Matey!
20th Jan 2001, 03:54
Haven't heard of many young FOs looking to leave because they're in a good position to move up the seniority list quickly. Have heard lots of grumbling from many of the older junior FOs and Captains who need to make some decent wedge before they're retired and aren't going to get it in BA.

exeng
20th Jan 2001, 05:33
Carnage Matey,

Actually there is a lot of grumbling going on. I think that fairly soon it will translate into much more than just grumbling.


Regards
Exeng

Hot Wings
20th Jan 2001, 16:49
I've heard of some people looking to go to Emirates and also of some DEPs going back to the LHS at their old airlines.

There is trouble brewing, especially as more crew at BA are becoming aware of how poor our pay is (I blame the internet!).

The status of flight crew at BA has been so severely eroded, that many cabin crew take home more per month than FOs. Also, CSDs received a bigger pay rise than flight crew (and better staff travel than FOs/FEs).



[This message has been edited by Hot Wings (edited 20 January 2001).]

Magnus Picus
13th May 2001, 22:51
Top Pay point for a CSD is around 35000

F/O's reach this after 4 years.

Both recieve same meal allowances (Mostly spent downroute)

F/O's recieve Flying Hourly rate which makes them 500 gross per month S/H and up to 2000 gross per month L/H.

Just thought I'd give the figures for this oft' said quote.

Make your own minds up.



------------------
Magnus

dodgy
13th May 2001, 23:16
Magnus mate.
Why are we comparing the pay rate of FO to CSD?
I know I'm going to get shot down with what I say but intend no snob status s@ite: its a different job. OK, same company, but different roles with some obvious overlap. Doesn't mean we should be linked in pay terms, just like we have different unions.

BA will compare pilots to CSD when it so suits, to play one off against the other. Taken from the CSD point of view, that probably doesn't help them either. We are now inextricably linked in the eyes of the company--to raise pilot pay they will have to do it through FHR (flying hour rate) to make the basic salary increment look weeny for the eyes of the cabin crew unions. Thus, cc do not get to argue for large salary increase.

Magnus Picus
13th May 2001, 23:19
I agree

It's just that the "CSD's earn more than an F/O" keeps popping up with no back-up.
I wanted to put the whole issue to bed with some numbers.

I agree on the FHR. It's a great disguise for a much needed pay rise.

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Magnus

dodgy
14th May 2001, 01:00
FHR increase magic.

As long as they only increase the rate for the blocks up to 9 hours, otherwise the gap with those longhaul wa.. chaps will get even bigger!

Magnus Picus
15th May 2001, 14:29
Keep it as it is I say (Despite being a S/H Wakner) Divide and Rule is soooo 90's.

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Magnus

JB007
15th May 2001, 15:34
Is BIG Airways really that bad these days...???

Money aside and i'm not money orientated apart from been able to pay back my training debt..how's the lifestyle?...quality of rosters?(for those with no seniority!)

Personally speaking and i'm not yet in a position to be applying for that first flying job...but at 26 years old I was hoping to have a good go at BA.

I've worked for a number of Airlines in the UK in Ops Control and with that experiance there a very few on my list I really, I mean really want to work for and stay with until retirement i.e Have a career, not just a job!and this is what i'm looking for in my first job...BA been the first and I would of thought an obvious choice...

Invalid Delete
15th May 2001, 16:32
Well, personally I fly for what can only be described as a 'MINOR'. I am 31, been with my company 5 years (First Job) flying a 737. I am comming up for command by the end of the year. I get 40k basic. Allowances vary but have just been significantly raised - over the last eight months I have averaged 600 per month.

I was going to apply to BA but if it is going to take 4 years to get back to a basic salary of 35,000 plus ten years of sitting in the RHS you can stick it up your arse.
"Welcome to BA, here's your pay cut for the next 15 years !!!" :rolleyes:

I am not surprised that DEP's are leaving and going back to their previous companies in the LHS.

Don't kill me for saying this but do BA take DEP captains ?
Because if they do, then I might apply next year. That might be worth it.

So there you have it. Unless BA ups it's salaries then it will be in the same position as Easyjet - unable to find enough pilots to fly it's planes.

liftyryce
15th May 2001, 17:56
Invalid Delete - No BA don't take DEP onto the LHS.

I've just thought of a way BA can avoid the Easyjet problem of a Pilot Shortage. They buy a low paying airline and then offer all their pilots a BA contract - at Pay Point 1 for Captains and frozen Cadet pay for FO's - i.e.lower pay than any of their other pilots.

The pilots accept, because even this is better than they had before and they're scared of losing their jobs. BA have no recruitment costs, no training costs and they even get some Airport Slots as a bonus ! The pilots were prepared to accept the low pay of their previous employer because of rapid expansion giving early commands and training roles - that all comes to a grinding halt with Big Airways.

No theory here - they are doing it at CityFlyer ! :)

Invalid Delete
15th May 2001, 21:33
liftyryce : I thought you were talking about 'GO' for a minute there. :)

Shame about the DEP situation at BA then. (no LHS DEP - What?)
It would seem like they will only be able to get young chaps in instead of a 'selection of ages' due to the fact that everyone will lose out financially by going to BA.

Then BA will end up with a big retirement 'bulge' in 2020 like the one back in 2001 - 2005 which almost broke the company. (Ooops there I go thinking about the future again.) I must start to think short term like an airline, yes, on an hour to hour basis otherwise things will start to run smoothly.

Secret Squirrel
15th May 2001, 22:08
Liftyryce,

MMMM, bit cynical really. You aren't entirely wrong, of course but having paid 70 million for CFE and then giving 180 pilots a pay rise, together with pension contributions, hardly seems like a cost saving (and I haven't even begun with the engineering department); add to this that the RJ is not really of very much use to them in the long term, and so will have to retrain us all and pay former captains and training captains a commanders salary for the pleasure of redirecting them (into the RHS!), I fail to see where they are making any real savings. There are the slots, of course, you are right there and they have got some experienced guys into the bargain but the recruitment costs are negligible in the big scheme of things.

Let's face it, the big problem at BA is that it has too many managers, and redcaps on 35,000. Certainly at LGW S/H they should farm out handling to competitive companies and lean down the management structure. I'm sure Magnus will crucify me subsequently if he disagrees but that is the way I see it. At CFE a turnaround used to cost us 400 a time with BMH; it costs EOG 1400!!! They don't turn around any quicker and they certainly don't always beat us in the punctuality league tables!

------------------
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

dodgy
15th May 2001, 22:24
Invalid delete-heard this story/yarn...

BA don't take on DEPs to LHS, except one guy on his first day in the company, minding his own business on a, er, very useful induction course....a manager walks in and says, there's a command at Gatwick going, not enough people have bid, anyone fancy it? Geez puts his hand up and hey presto uno command course. Unlikely to happen again though!

wallabie
16th May 2001, 19:37
Not happy about the pay check chappies ? Well, according to Lufthansa unions, BA pilots are the best paid pilots in Europe ahead of Swissair and Air France. 27 % more than Lufthansa, 13 % more than Air France.

Pickled
16th May 2001, 20:01
Kippa,

Some DEPs are busy looking elsewhere. They are not happy at being stuck at the bottom of the longhaul bid system for a good 5 years. In addition the B scale salary begins to hurt after a while. All this was predictable before they joined.

I would be surprised if many actually go.

This year's pay round may just address the salary issue and make joing BA relatively attractive again.